five oddities
five oddities
2013-02-19 02:06:20
There are certain pieces of information which I've come across over the years and stupidly didn't note down the reference for, because I assumed that the infirmation would remain available, or that other people already knew it. I could kick myself for not taking better notes. Does anybody recognise any of these?
1) Round about 1980, I saw a small newspaper advert in which somebody was selling a suit of armour which they claimed to have been Richard's. I never found out what the provenance was but it was for a short man - I think 5'2" but I couldn't swear to that.
2) Also round about 1980, I saw a list of exhibits at a local museum in I think Eyam, which included a ring which the catalogue said had supposedly been given by Richard to his mistress whom he brought back with him from Scotland. If this was for real I wondered if she could have been the mother of Richard Plantagenet.
3) Likewise round about 1980, I was glancing through a book on the history of the Macgregors in the library of the School of Scottish Studies, and I found the following story. Bear in mind that the motto of the Macgregors is "I am Macgregor and my blood is royal."
A party of Scottish diplomats was conferring with Richard when a minor member of the party, named Macgregor, darted forward, snatched the crown from Richard's head and ran. He didn't get far before he was knocked down and sat on, then dragged before Richard who demanded to know what the hell he thought he was playing at, or words to that general effect. Macgregor replied that when he was born, the spaewife had predicted that he would die by being hanged as a thief, and he didn't want to die for stealing anything petty.
I don't think there was any suggestion that Richard actually did hang him - in fact I think it specified that he didn't. I tried to locate the book again a few years later but the library had been reorganised and I never found it.
4) In the early to mid 1980s there was a little local public library up an alley off Fleet Street, near where I worked, and I often used to spend my lunch hours in there. It had a shelf of some big Victorian history books one of which had a long section about Richard containing information I'd never seen elsewhere, and I don't know if it was valid or not or what the sources were. The only bits I can remember were that it claimed that Anne had urged Richard to accept the throne, and that when she died he walked in front of (or behind, I forget which) her coffin, weeping. Then the library moved to new premises and I couldn't find the books again - I suppose they got chucked out.
5) The final oddity is the most tenuous and peculiar, and one which probably nobody can check up on. 23 years ago I had a boyfriend named Norman, who sadly died in 1991. He was very interested in Richard, extremely intelligent and had excellent contacts - he was the son of the former Picture Editor of The Glasgow Herald. Unfortunately he was also a chronic drunk, so he was even vaguer than I am.
Norman swore blind that some time in the 1980s he had been doing some research at the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland and he had come across some documentary evidence (not a painting) that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth leaving a living baby, also Katherine, who had been sent to Scotland as a young girl to keep her away from the Tudors, and had married into the Wishart family. Unfortunately because he was drunk and generally disorderly he hadn't taken notes, and couldn't remember exactly what he had found, although he was adamant that he had found it.
I was able to coinfirm that this was at least *feasible*. There are two Mediaeval branches of the Wishart family both of which are very well-documented, but on one of the branches there's a gap at just the right time where the names of a couple of the women who married into the family are not known (or weren't known in the 1990s, anyway).
*If* Norman was right, and it's a very big if, then there's a strong possibility that Richard is line-ancestral to the bloke wot plays the keyboards in Runrig.
1) Round about 1980, I saw a small newspaper advert in which somebody was selling a suit of armour which they claimed to have been Richard's. I never found out what the provenance was but it was for a short man - I think 5'2" but I couldn't swear to that.
2) Also round about 1980, I saw a list of exhibits at a local museum in I think Eyam, which included a ring which the catalogue said had supposedly been given by Richard to his mistress whom he brought back with him from Scotland. If this was for real I wondered if she could have been the mother of Richard Plantagenet.
3) Likewise round about 1980, I was glancing through a book on the history of the Macgregors in the library of the School of Scottish Studies, and I found the following story. Bear in mind that the motto of the Macgregors is "I am Macgregor and my blood is royal."
A party of Scottish diplomats was conferring with Richard when a minor member of the party, named Macgregor, darted forward, snatched the crown from Richard's head and ran. He didn't get far before he was knocked down and sat on, then dragged before Richard who demanded to know what the hell he thought he was playing at, or words to that general effect. Macgregor replied that when he was born, the spaewife had predicted that he would die by being hanged as a thief, and he didn't want to die for stealing anything petty.
I don't think there was any suggestion that Richard actually did hang him - in fact I think it specified that he didn't. I tried to locate the book again a few years later but the library had been reorganised and I never found it.
4) In the early to mid 1980s there was a little local public library up an alley off Fleet Street, near where I worked, and I often used to spend my lunch hours in there. It had a shelf of some big Victorian history books one of which had a long section about Richard containing information I'd never seen elsewhere, and I don't know if it was valid or not or what the sources were. The only bits I can remember were that it claimed that Anne had urged Richard to accept the throne, and that when she died he walked in front of (or behind, I forget which) her coffin, weeping. Then the library moved to new premises and I couldn't find the books again - I suppose they got chucked out.
5) The final oddity is the most tenuous and peculiar, and one which probably nobody can check up on. 23 years ago I had a boyfriend named Norman, who sadly died in 1991. He was very interested in Richard, extremely intelligent and had excellent contacts - he was the son of the former Picture Editor of The Glasgow Herald. Unfortunately he was also a chronic drunk, so he was even vaguer than I am.
Norman swore blind that some time in the 1980s he had been doing some research at the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland and he had come across some documentary evidence (not a painting) that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth leaving a living baby, also Katherine, who had been sent to Scotland as a young girl to keep her away from the Tudors, and had married into the Wishart family. Unfortunately because he was drunk and generally disorderly he hadn't taken notes, and couldn't remember exactly what he had found, although he was adamant that he had found it.
I was able to coinfirm that this was at least *feasible*. There are two Mediaeval branches of the Wishart family both of which are very well-documented, but on one of the branches there's a gap at just the right time where the names of a couple of the women who married into the family are not known (or weren't known in the 1990s, anyway).
*If* Norman was right, and it's a very big if, then there's a strong possibility that Richard is line-ancestral to the bloke wot plays the keyboards in Runrig.
Re: five oddities
2013-02-19 09:56:45
Carol,
I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 2:17
Subject: five oddities
There are certain pieces of information which I've come across over the years and stupidly didn't note down the reference for, because I assumed that the infirmation would remain available, or that other people already knew it. I could kick myself for not taking better notes. Does anybody recognise any of these?
1) Round about 1980, I saw a small newspaper advert in which somebody was selling a suit of armour which they claimed to have been Richard's. I never found out what the provenance was but it was for a short man - I think 5'2" but I couldn't swear to that.
2) Also round about 1980, I saw a list of exhibits at a local museum in I think Eyam, which included a ring which the catalogue said had supposedly been given by Richard to his mistress whom he brought back with him from Scotland. If this was for real I wondered if she could have been the mother of Richard Plantagenet.
3) Likewise round about 1980, I was glancing through a book on the history of the Macgregors in the library of the School of Scottish Studies, and I found the following story. Bear in mind that the motto of the Macgregors is "I am Macgregor and my blood is royal."
A party of Scottish diplomats was conferring with Richard when a minor member of the party, named Macgregor, darted forward, snatched the crown from Richard's head and ran. He didn't get far before he was knocked down and sat on, then dragged before Richard who demanded to know what the hell he thought he was playing at, or words to that general effect. Macgregor replied that when he was born, the spaewife had predicted that he would die by being hanged as a thief, and he didn't want to die for stealing anything petty.
I don't think there was any suggestion that Richard actually did hang him - in fact I think it specified that he didn't. I tried to locate the book again a few years later but the library had been reorganised and I never found it.
4) In the early to mid 1980s there was a little local public library up an alley off Fleet Street, near where I worked, and I often used to spend my lunch hours in there. It had a shelf of some big Victorian history books one of which had a long section about Richard containing information I'd never seen elsewhere, and I don't know if it was valid or not or what the sources were. The only bits I can remember were that it claimed that Anne had urged Richard to accept the throne, and that when she died he walked in front of (or behind, I forget which) her coffin, weeping. Then the library moved to new premises and I couldn't find the books again - I suppose they got chucked out.
5) The final oddity is the most tenuous and peculiar, and one which probably nobody can check up on. 23 years ago I had a boyfriend named Norman, who sadly died in 1991. He was very interested in Richard, extremely intelligent and had excellent contacts - he was the son of the former Picture Editor of The Glasgow Herald. Unfortunately he was also a chronic drunk, so he was even vaguer than I am.
Norman swore blind that some time in the 1980s he had been doing some research at the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland and he had come across some documentary evidence (not a painting) that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth leaving a living baby, also Katherine, who had been sent to Scotland as a young girl to keep her away from the Tudors, and had married into the Wishart family. Unfortunately because he was drunk and generally disorderly he hadn't taken notes, and couldn't remember exactly what he had found, although he was adamant that he had found it.
I was able to coinfirm that this was at least *feasible*. There are two Mediaeval branches of the Wishart family both of which are very well-documented, but on one of the branches there's a gap at just the right time where the names of a couple of the women who married into the family are not known (or weren't known in the 1990s, anyway).
*If* Norman was right, and it's a very big if, then there's a strong possibility that Richard is line-ancestral to the bloke wot plays the keyboards in Runrig.
I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 2:17
Subject: five oddities
There are certain pieces of information which I've come across over the years and stupidly didn't note down the reference for, because I assumed that the infirmation would remain available, or that other people already knew it. I could kick myself for not taking better notes. Does anybody recognise any of these?
1) Round about 1980, I saw a small newspaper advert in which somebody was selling a suit of armour which they claimed to have been Richard's. I never found out what the provenance was but it was for a short man - I think 5'2" but I couldn't swear to that.
2) Also round about 1980, I saw a list of exhibits at a local museum in I think Eyam, which included a ring which the catalogue said had supposedly been given by Richard to his mistress whom he brought back with him from Scotland. If this was for real I wondered if she could have been the mother of Richard Plantagenet.
3) Likewise round about 1980, I was glancing through a book on the history of the Macgregors in the library of the School of Scottish Studies, and I found the following story. Bear in mind that the motto of the Macgregors is "I am Macgregor and my blood is royal."
A party of Scottish diplomats was conferring with Richard when a minor member of the party, named Macgregor, darted forward, snatched the crown from Richard's head and ran. He didn't get far before he was knocked down and sat on, then dragged before Richard who demanded to know what the hell he thought he was playing at, or words to that general effect. Macgregor replied that when he was born, the spaewife had predicted that he would die by being hanged as a thief, and he didn't want to die for stealing anything petty.
I don't think there was any suggestion that Richard actually did hang him - in fact I think it specified that he didn't. I tried to locate the book again a few years later but the library had been reorganised and I never found it.
4) In the early to mid 1980s there was a little local public library up an alley off Fleet Street, near where I worked, and I often used to spend my lunch hours in there. It had a shelf of some big Victorian history books one of which had a long section about Richard containing information I'd never seen elsewhere, and I don't know if it was valid or not or what the sources were. The only bits I can remember were that it claimed that Anne had urged Richard to accept the throne, and that when she died he walked in front of (or behind, I forget which) her coffin, weeping. Then the library moved to new premises and I couldn't find the books again - I suppose they got chucked out.
5) The final oddity is the most tenuous and peculiar, and one which probably nobody can check up on. 23 years ago I had a boyfriend named Norman, who sadly died in 1991. He was very interested in Richard, extremely intelligent and had excellent contacts - he was the son of the former Picture Editor of The Glasgow Herald. Unfortunately he was also a chronic drunk, so he was even vaguer than I am.
Norman swore blind that some time in the 1980s he had been doing some research at the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland and he had come across some documentary evidence (not a painting) that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth leaving a living baby, also Katherine, who had been sent to Scotland as a young girl to keep her away from the Tudors, and had married into the Wishart family. Unfortunately because he was drunk and generally disorderly he hadn't taken notes, and couldn't remember exactly what he had found, although he was adamant that he had found it.
I was able to coinfirm that this was at least *feasible*. There are two Mediaeval branches of the Wishart family both of which are very well-documented, but on one of the branches there's a gap at just the right time where the names of a couple of the women who married into the family are not known (or weren't known in the 1990s, anyway).
*If* Norman was right, and it's a very big if, then there's a strong possibility that Richard is line-ancestral to the bloke wot plays the keyboards in Runrig.
Re: five oddities
2013-02-19 15:51:12
Lovell was believed to have finished up 'Bricked in' at Minister Lovell Hall near Burford on the way to Oxford. The Old Mill Pub /Hotel there belongs to Peter De Savoury & is worth a visit.
Kind Regards,
Arthur W.
>________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 9:56
>Subject: Re: five oddities
>
>
>
>Carol,
>
>I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Claire M Jordan whitehound@...>
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 2:17
>Subject: five oddities
>
>
>
>There are certain pieces of information which I've come across over the years and stupidly didn't note down the reference for, because I assumed that the infirmation would remain available, or that other people already knew it. I could kick myself for not taking better notes. Does anybody recognise any of these?
>
>1) Round about 1980, I saw a small newspaper advert in which somebody was selling a suit of armour which they claimed to have been Richard's. I never found out what the provenance was but it was for a short man - I think 5'2" but I couldn't swear to that.
>
>2) Also round about 1980, I saw a list of exhibits at a local museum in I think Eyam, which included a ring which the catalogue said had supposedly been given by Richard to his mistress whom he brought back with him from Scotland. If this was for real I wondered if she could have been the mother of Richard Plantagenet.
>
>3) Likewise round about 1980, I was glancing through a book on the history of the Macgregors in the library of the School of Scottish Studies, and I found the following story. Bear in mind that the motto of the Macgregors is "I am Macgregor and my blood is royal."
>
>A party of Scottish diplomats was conferring with Richard when a minor member of the party, named Macgregor, darted forward, snatched the crown from Richard's head and ran. He didn't get far before he was knocked down and sat on, then dragged before Richard who demanded to know what the hell he thought he was playing at, or words to that general effect. Macgregor replied that when he was born, the spaewife had predicted that he would die by being hanged as a thief, and he didn't want to die for stealing anything petty.
>
>I don't think there was any suggestion that Richard actually did hang him - in fact I think it specified that he didn't. I tried to locate the book again a few years later but the library had been reorganised and I never found it.
>
>4) In the early to mid 1980s there was a little local public library up an alley off Fleet Street, near where I worked, and I often used to spend my lunch hours in there. It had a shelf of some big Victorian history books one of which had a long section about Richard containing information I'd never seen elsewhere, and I don't know if it was valid or not or what the sources were. The only bits I can remember were that it claimed that Anne had urged Richard to accept the throne, and that when she died he walked in front of (or behind, I forget which) her coffin, weeping. Then the library moved to new premises and I couldn't find the books again - I suppose they got chucked out.
>
>5) The final oddity is the most tenuous and peculiar, and one which probably nobody can check up on. 23 years ago I had a boyfriend named Norman, who sadly died in 1991. He was very interested in Richard, extremely intelligent and had excellent contacts - he was the son of the former Picture Editor of The Glasgow Herald. Unfortunately he was also a chronic drunk, so he was even vaguer than I am.
>
>Norman swore blind that some time in the 1980s he had been doing some research at the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland and he had come across some documentary evidence (not a painting) that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth leaving a living baby, also Katherine, who had been sent to Scotland as a young girl to keep her away from the Tudors, and had married into the Wishart family. Unfortunately because he was drunk and generally disorderly he hadn't taken notes, and couldn't remember exactly what he had found, although he was adamant that he had found it.
>
>I was able to coinfirm that this was at least *feasible*. There are two Mediaeval branches of the Wishart family both of which are very well-documented, but on one of the branches there's a gap at just the right time where the names of a couple of the women who married into the family are not known (or weren't known in the 1990s, anyway).
>
>*If* Norman was right, and it's a very big if, then there's a strong possibility that Richard is line-ancestral to the bloke wot plays the keyboards in Runrig.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Kind Regards,
Arthur W.
>________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 9:56
>Subject: Re: five oddities
>
>
>
>Carol,
>
>I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Claire M Jordan whitehound@...>
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 2:17
>Subject: five oddities
>
>
>
>There are certain pieces of information which I've come across over the years and stupidly didn't note down the reference for, because I assumed that the infirmation would remain available, or that other people already knew it. I could kick myself for not taking better notes. Does anybody recognise any of these?
>
>1) Round about 1980, I saw a small newspaper advert in which somebody was selling a suit of armour which they claimed to have been Richard's. I never found out what the provenance was but it was for a short man - I think 5'2" but I couldn't swear to that.
>
>2) Also round about 1980, I saw a list of exhibits at a local museum in I think Eyam, which included a ring which the catalogue said had supposedly been given by Richard to his mistress whom he brought back with him from Scotland. If this was for real I wondered if she could have been the mother of Richard Plantagenet.
>
>3) Likewise round about 1980, I was glancing through a book on the history of the Macgregors in the library of the School of Scottish Studies, and I found the following story. Bear in mind that the motto of the Macgregors is "I am Macgregor and my blood is royal."
>
>A party of Scottish diplomats was conferring with Richard when a minor member of the party, named Macgregor, darted forward, snatched the crown from Richard's head and ran. He didn't get far before he was knocked down and sat on, then dragged before Richard who demanded to know what the hell he thought he was playing at, or words to that general effect. Macgregor replied that when he was born, the spaewife had predicted that he would die by being hanged as a thief, and he didn't want to die for stealing anything petty.
>
>I don't think there was any suggestion that Richard actually did hang him - in fact I think it specified that he didn't. I tried to locate the book again a few years later but the library had been reorganised and I never found it.
>
>4) In the early to mid 1980s there was a little local public library up an alley off Fleet Street, near where I worked, and I often used to spend my lunch hours in there. It had a shelf of some big Victorian history books one of which had a long section about Richard containing information I'd never seen elsewhere, and I don't know if it was valid or not or what the sources were. The only bits I can remember were that it claimed that Anne had urged Richard to accept the throne, and that when she died he walked in front of (or behind, I forget which) her coffin, weeping. Then the library moved to new premises and I couldn't find the books again - I suppose they got chucked out.
>
>5) The final oddity is the most tenuous and peculiar, and one which probably nobody can check up on. 23 years ago I had a boyfriend named Norman, who sadly died in 1991. He was very interested in Richard, extremely intelligent and had excellent contacts - he was the son of the former Picture Editor of The Glasgow Herald. Unfortunately he was also a chronic drunk, so he was even vaguer than I am.
>
>Norman swore blind that some time in the 1980s he had been doing some research at the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland and he had come across some documentary evidence (not a painting) that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth leaving a living baby, also Katherine, who had been sent to Scotland as a young girl to keep her away from the Tudors, and had married into the Wishart family. Unfortunately because he was drunk and generally disorderly he hadn't taken notes, and couldn't remember exactly what he had found, although he was adamant that he had found it.
>
>I was able to coinfirm that this was at least *feasible*. There are two Mediaeval branches of the Wishart family both of which are very well-documented, but on one of the branches there's a gap at just the right time where the names of a couple of the women who married into the family are not known (or weren't known in the 1990s, anyway).
>
>*If* Norman was right, and it's a very big if, then there's a strong possibility that Richard is line-ancestral to the bloke wot plays the keyboards in Runrig.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: five oddities
2013-02-19 16:58:03
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Carol,
> I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
>
Carol responds:
Actually, that was Claire's post, and all I know about the Lovell rumor is that there was one. I know it has been discussed on this forum in the past, so someone else can probably help you.
Carol
>
> Carol,
> I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
>
Carol responds:
Actually, that was Claire's post, and all I know about the Lovell rumor is that there was one. I know it has been discussed on this forum in the past, so someone else can probably help you.
Carol
Re: five oddities
2013-02-19 17:17:02
Sorry I meant Claire when she was talking about Scotland. Too many Cs
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 16:58
Subject: Re: five oddities
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Carol,
> I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
>
Carol responds:
Actually, that was Claire's post, and all I know about the Lovell rumor is that there was one. I know it has been discussed on this forum in the past, so someone else can probably help you.
Carol
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 16:58
Subject: Re: five oddities
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Carol,
> I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
>
Carol responds:
Actually, that was Claire's post, and all I know about the Lovell rumor is that there was one. I know it has been discussed on this forum in the past, so someone else can probably help you.
Carol
Re: five oddities
2013-02-19 18:13:42
Just to re-iterate, the "safe conduct" seems to come from James IV's - the part of 1488 after his accession.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: five oddities
Sorry I meant Claire when she was talking about Scotland. Too many Cs
________________________________
From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 16:58
Subject: Re: five oddities
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Carol,
> I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
>
Carol responds:
Actually, that was Claire's post, and all I know about the Lovell rumor is that there was one. I know it has been discussed on this forum in the past, so someone else can probably help you.
Carol
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: five oddities
Sorry I meant Claire when she was talking about Scotland. Too many Cs
________________________________
From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 16:58
Subject: Re: five oddities
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Carol,
> I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
>
Carol responds:
Actually, that was Claire's post, and all I know about the Lovell rumor is that there was one. I know it has been discussed on this forum in the past, so someone else can probably help you.
Carol
Re: five oddities
2013-02-19 20:59:25
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: five oddities
> Sorry I meant Claire when she was talking about Scotland. Too many Cs
I hadn't heard the one about Lovell going to Scotland. If it's true, it
slightly increases the chance that Norman's supposed discovery was correct,
because Lovell would have been an ideal, trustworthy person to convey a
newly-motherless infant granddaughter of Richard's to a foster family in
Scotland.
Btw, talking to somebody off-list has roused a very vague memory. I
weouldn't give it more than about 30% certainty but I *think* the comment
about the museum which housed, among other things, a ring said to have been
given by Richard to a mistress he brought back with him from Scotland was
probably in a 1970s copy of The Countryman.
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: five oddities
> Sorry I meant Claire when she was talking about Scotland. Too many Cs
I hadn't heard the one about Lovell going to Scotland. If it's true, it
slightly increases the chance that Norman's supposed discovery was correct,
because Lovell would have been an ideal, trustworthy person to convey a
newly-motherless infant granddaughter of Richard's to a foster family in
Scotland.
Btw, talking to somebody off-list has roused a very vague memory. I
weouldn't give it more than about 30% certainty but I *think* the comment
about the museum which housed, among other things, a ring said to have been
given by Richard to a mistress he brought back with him from Scotland was
probably in a 1970s copy of The Countryman.
Re: five oddities
2013-02-21 12:23:30
Lovell was granted a safe conduct to go to Scotland just after the death of James III.
Marie
--- In , Arthurian <lancastrian@...> wrote:
>
> Lovell was believed to have finished up 'Bricked in' at Minister Lovell Hall near Burford on the way to Oxford. The Old Mill Pub /Hotel there belongs to Peter De Savoury & is worth a visit.
> Â
> Kind Regards,
> Â
> Arthur W.
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> >To: "" <>
> >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 9:56
> >Subject: Re: five oddities
> >
> >
> >Â
> >Carol,
> >Â
> >I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: Claire M Jordan whitehound@...>
> >To:
> >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 2:17
> >Subject: five oddities
> >
> >Â
> >
> >There are certain pieces of information which I've come across over the years and stupidly didn't note down the reference for, because I assumed that the infirmation would remain available, or that other people already knew it. I could kick myself for not taking better notes. Does anybody recognise any of these?
> >
> >1) Round about 1980, I saw a small newspaper advert in which somebody was selling a suit of armour which they claimed to have been Richard's. I never found out what the provenance was but it was for a short man - I think 5'2" but I couldn't swear to that.
> >
> >2) Also round about 1980, I saw a list of exhibits at a local museum in I think Eyam, which included a ring which the catalogue said had supposedly been given by Richard to his mistress whom he brought back with him from Scotland. If this was for real I wondered if she could have been the mother of Richard Plantagenet.
> >
> >3) Likewise round about 1980, I was glancing through a book on the history of the Macgregors in the library of the School of Scottish Studies, and I found the following story. Bear in mind that the motto of the Macgregors is "I am Macgregor and my blood is royal."
> >
> >A party of Scottish diplomats was conferring with Richard when a minor member of the party, named Macgregor, darted forward, snatched the crown from Richard's head and ran. He didn't get far before he was knocked down and sat on, then dragged before Richard who demanded to know what the hell he thought he was playing at, or words to that general effect. Macgregor replied that when he was born, the spaewife had predicted that he would die by being hanged as a thief, and he didn't want to die for stealing anything petty.
> >
> >I don't think there was any suggestion that Richard actually did hang him - in fact I think it specified that he didn't. I tried to locate the book again a few years later but the library had been reorganised and I never found it.
> >
> >4) In the early to mid 1980s there was a little local public library up an alley off Fleet Street, near where I worked, and I often used to spend my lunch hours in there. It had a shelf of some big Victorian history books one of which had a long section about Richard containing information I'd never seen elsewhere, and I don't know if it was valid or not or what the sources were. The only bits I can remember were that it claimed that Anne had urged Richard to accept the throne, and that when she died he walked in front of (or behind, I forget which) her coffin, weeping. Then the library moved to new premises and I couldn't find the books again - I suppose they got chucked out.
> >
> >5) The final oddity is the most tenuous and peculiar, and one which probably nobody can check up on. 23 years ago I had a boyfriend named Norman, who sadly died in 1991. He was very interested in Richard, extremely intelligent and had excellent contacts - he was the son of the former Picture Editor of The Glasgow Herald. Unfortunately he was also a chronic drunk, so he was even vaguer than I am.
> >
> >Norman swore blind that some time in the 1980s he had been doing some research at the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland and he had come across some documentary evidence (not a painting) that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth leaving a living baby, also Katherine, who had been sent to Scotland as a young girl to keep her away from the Tudors, and had married into the Wishart family. Unfortunately because he was drunk and generally disorderly he hadn't taken notes, and couldn't remember exactly what he had found, although he was adamant that he had found it.
> >
> >I was able to coinfirm that this was at least *feasible*. There are two Mediaeval branches of the Wishart family both of which are very well-documented, but on one of the branches there's a gap at just the right time where the names of a couple of the women who married into the family are not known (or weren't known in the 1990s, anyway).
> >
> >*If* Norman was right, and it's a very big if, then there's a strong possibility that Richard is line-ancestral to the bloke wot plays the keyboards in Runrig.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Marie
--- In , Arthurian <lancastrian@...> wrote:
>
> Lovell was believed to have finished up 'Bricked in' at Minister Lovell Hall near Burford on the way to Oxford. The Old Mill Pub /Hotel there belongs to Peter De Savoury & is worth a visit.
> Â
> Kind Regards,
> Â
> Arthur W.
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> >To: "" <>
> >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 9:56
> >Subject: Re: five oddities
> >
> >
> >Â
> >Carol,
> >Â
> >I can't help with this, but do you know anything about the rumour that Lovell took refuge in Scotland after Bosworth? H.
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: Claire M Jordan whitehound@...>
> >To:
> >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 2:17
> >Subject: five oddities
> >
> >Â
> >
> >There are certain pieces of information which I've come across over the years and stupidly didn't note down the reference for, because I assumed that the infirmation would remain available, or that other people already knew it. I could kick myself for not taking better notes. Does anybody recognise any of these?
> >
> >1) Round about 1980, I saw a small newspaper advert in which somebody was selling a suit of armour which they claimed to have been Richard's. I never found out what the provenance was but it was for a short man - I think 5'2" but I couldn't swear to that.
> >
> >2) Also round about 1980, I saw a list of exhibits at a local museum in I think Eyam, which included a ring which the catalogue said had supposedly been given by Richard to his mistress whom he brought back with him from Scotland. If this was for real I wondered if she could have been the mother of Richard Plantagenet.
> >
> >3) Likewise round about 1980, I was glancing through a book on the history of the Macgregors in the library of the School of Scottish Studies, and I found the following story. Bear in mind that the motto of the Macgregors is "I am Macgregor and my blood is royal."
> >
> >A party of Scottish diplomats was conferring with Richard when a minor member of the party, named Macgregor, darted forward, snatched the crown from Richard's head and ran. He didn't get far before he was knocked down and sat on, then dragged before Richard who demanded to know what the hell he thought he was playing at, or words to that general effect. Macgregor replied that when he was born, the spaewife had predicted that he would die by being hanged as a thief, and he didn't want to die for stealing anything petty.
> >
> >I don't think there was any suggestion that Richard actually did hang him - in fact I think it specified that he didn't. I tried to locate the book again a few years later but the library had been reorganised and I never found it.
> >
> >4) In the early to mid 1980s there was a little local public library up an alley off Fleet Street, near where I worked, and I often used to spend my lunch hours in there. It had a shelf of some big Victorian history books one of which had a long section about Richard containing information I'd never seen elsewhere, and I don't know if it was valid or not or what the sources were. The only bits I can remember were that it claimed that Anne had urged Richard to accept the throne, and that when she died he walked in front of (or behind, I forget which) her coffin, weeping. Then the library moved to new premises and I couldn't find the books again - I suppose they got chucked out.
> >
> >5) The final oddity is the most tenuous and peculiar, and one which probably nobody can check up on. 23 years ago I had a boyfriend named Norman, who sadly died in 1991. He was very interested in Richard, extremely intelligent and had excellent contacts - he was the son of the former Picture Editor of The Glasgow Herald. Unfortunately he was also a chronic drunk, so he was even vaguer than I am.
> >
> >Norman swore blind that some time in the 1980s he had been doing some research at the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland and he had come across some documentary evidence (not a painting) that Richard's daughter Katherine had died in childbirth leaving a living baby, also Katherine, who had been sent to Scotland as a young girl to keep her away from the Tudors, and had married into the Wishart family. Unfortunately because he was drunk and generally disorderly he hadn't taken notes, and couldn't remember exactly what he had found, although he was adamant that he had found it.
> >
> >I was able to coinfirm that this was at least *feasible*. There are two Mediaeval branches of the Wishart family both of which are very well-documented, but on one of the branches there's a gap at just the right time where the names of a couple of the women who married into the family are not known (or weren't known in the 1990s, anyway).
> >
> >*If* Norman was right, and it's a very big if, then there's a strong possibility that Richard is line-ancestral to the bloke wot plays the keyboards in Runrig.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Re: five oddities
2013-02-21 21:58:18
--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: five oddities
>
>
> > Sorry I meant Claire when she was talking about Scotland. Too many Cs
>
> I hadn't heard the one about Lovell going to Scotland. If it's true, it
> slightly increases the chance that Norman's supposed discovery was correct,
> because Lovell would have been an ideal, trustworthy person to convey a
> newly-motherless infant granddaughter of Richard's to a foster family in
> Scotland.
>
> Btw, talking to somebody off-list has roused a very vague memory. I
> weouldn't give it more than about 30% certainty but I *think* the comment
> about the museum which housed, among other things, a ring said to have been
> given by Richard to a mistress he brought back with him from Scotland was
> probably in a 1970s copy of The Countryman.
>
Marie replies:
This is the Hopper ring. Owned by a family who certainly lived in Kent in the 16th century. There is no way of verifying their story that their foremother had been brought south from Scotland by Richard, who had given her the ring and set her up with a mill. What on earth would Richard have been doing in Kent?
>
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: five oddities
>
>
> > Sorry I meant Claire when she was talking about Scotland. Too many Cs
>
> I hadn't heard the one about Lovell going to Scotland. If it's true, it
> slightly increases the chance that Norman's supposed discovery was correct,
> because Lovell would have been an ideal, trustworthy person to convey a
> newly-motherless infant granddaughter of Richard's to a foster family in
> Scotland.
>
> Btw, talking to somebody off-list has roused a very vague memory. I
> weouldn't give it more than about 30% certainty but I *think* the comment
> about the museum which housed, among other things, a ring said to have been
> given by Richard to a mistress he brought back with him from Scotland was
> probably in a 1970s copy of The Countryman.
>
Marie replies:
This is the Hopper ring. Owned by a family who certainly lived in Kent in the 16th century. There is no way of verifying their story that their foremother had been brought south from Scotland by Richard, who had given her the ring and set her up with a mill. What on earth would Richard have been doing in Kent?
Re: five oddities
2013-02-21 22:11:44
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: five oddities
> This is the Hopper ring.
Ah, yes, that rings a bell - thanks. Now if anybody can identify that suit
of armour....
> Owned by a family who certainly lived in Kent in the 16th century. There
> is no way of verifying their story that their foremother had been brought
> south from Scotland by Richard, who had given her the ring and set her up
> with a mill. What on earth would Richard have been doing in Kent?
If true I would take it she was his mistress when he was in Scotland - since
Ann was a long way away - and that she was then sent to Kent without him.
But he *was* in Kent in January 1484.
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: five oddities
> This is the Hopper ring.
Ah, yes, that rings a bell - thanks. Now if anybody can identify that suit
of armour....
> Owned by a family who certainly lived in Kent in the 16th century. There
> is no way of verifying their story that their foremother had been brought
> south from Scotland by Richard, who had given her the ring and set her up
> with a mill. What on earth would Richard have been doing in Kent?
If true I would take it she was his mistress when he was in Scotland - since
Ann was a long way away - and that she was then sent to Kent without him.
But he *was* in Kent in January 1484.
Re: five oddities
2013-02-22 23:27:33
--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: five oddities
>
>
> > This is the Hopper ring.
>
> Ah, yes, that rings a bell - thanks. Now if anybody can identify that suit
> of armour....
I don't know if it's the same one, but I have heard of a wonky suit of armour that was claimed ot have belonged to Richard III because of its wonkiness. Actually it is wonky because it is a composite - ie bits of different suits of armour.
Marie
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: five oddities
>
>
> > This is the Hopper ring.
>
> Ah, yes, that rings a bell - thanks. Now if anybody can identify that suit
> of armour....
I don't know if it's the same one, but I have heard of a wonky suit of armour that was claimed ot have belonged to Richard III because of its wonkiness. Actually it is wonky because it is a composite - ie bits of different suits of armour.
Marie
Re: five oddities
2013-02-22 23:52:54
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: five oddities
> I don't know if it's the same one, but I have heard of a wonky suit of
> armour that was claimed ot have belonged to Richard III because of its
> wonkiness. Actually it is wonky because it is a composite - ie bits of
> different suits of armour.
Marie
Thanks. Is it to fit somebody very short, and was it offered for sale circa
1980?
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: five oddities
> I don't know if it's the same one, but I have heard of a wonky suit of
> armour that was claimed ot have belonged to Richard III because of its
> wonkiness. Actually it is wonky because it is a composite - ie bits of
> different suits of armour.
Marie
Thanks. Is it to fit somebody very short, and was it offered for sale circa
1980?
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