Could commoners become Knights?

This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?

I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would like to know. Thanks! Maire.

Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
birthday list

I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done

( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
never spoke to us we called him silent knight)



George



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
To:
Subject: Could commoners become Knights?





This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?

I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
like to know. Thanks! Maire.

Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.

Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?

--- In , "George Butterfield" <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> birthday list
>
> I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
> as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done
>
> ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>
>
>
> George
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> To:
> Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
>
>
> This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
> through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
> I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Isn't that the Order of the British Empire????

On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:59 PM, "George Butterfield" <gbutterf1@...<mailto:gbutterf1@...>> wrote:



Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
birthday list

I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done

( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
never spoke to us we called him silent knight)

George

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Could commoners become Knights?

This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?

I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
like to know. Thanks! Maire.

What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
duties .



George





From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?





Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.

Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "George Butterfield"
wrote:
>
> Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> birthday list
>
> I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
years
> as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
done
>
> ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>
>
>
> George
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
>
>
> This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
but
> through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
> I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Not just an OBE but the full range of distinctions.
George

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Pamela Bain
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:33 PM
To: <>
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

Isn't that the Order of the British Empire????

On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:59 PM, "George Butterfield"
<gbutterf1@...<mailto:gbutterf1@...>> wrote:



Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's birthday
list

I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done

( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
never spoke to us we called him silent knight)

George

From:
<mailto:%40yahoo
groups.com>
[mailto:<mailto:
%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoo
groups.com>
Subject: Could commoners become Knights?

This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?

I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
like to know. Thanks! Maire.











------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Thanks, George. I'm sure it was very, very rare that someone would be knighted on the field of battle. I'll investigate the Captain at Crecy. Thanks so much for the help! Maire.

--- In , "George Butterfield" <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> duties .
>
>
>
> George
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
>
> Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "George Butterfield"
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > birthday list
> >
> > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> years
> > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> done
> >
> > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> >
> >
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> but
> > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> >
> > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Since I already commented on being a princess, I guess asking for a Dame-hood is totally out of the question! RATS

On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:17 PM, "George Butterfield" <gbutterf1@...<mailto:gbutterf1@...>> wrote:



Not just an OBE but the full range of distinctions.
George

-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Pamela Bain
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:33 PM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

Isn't that the Order of the British Empire????

On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:59 PM, "George Butterfield"
gbutterf1@...<mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com>gbutterf1@...<mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com>>> wrote:

Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's birthday
list

I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done

( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
never spoke to us we called him silent knight)

George

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

[mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Could commoners become Knights?

This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?

I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
like to know. Thanks! Maire.





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Maire wrote:
>
> This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
> I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would like to know. Thanks! Maire.

Carol responds:

I could be mistaken, but I believe that Sir James Tyrrell and Sir Richard Ratcliffe were members of the gentry, not the nobility, and Sir Edward Brampton, a converted Portuguese Jew, started out as an immigrant to England. I'm pretty sure that receiving a knighthood automatically raised him to the gentry.

Carol

As indeed were the Catesby family.



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 4:30
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

 


Maire wrote:
>
> This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
> I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would like to know. Thanks! Maire.

Carol responds:

I could be mistaken, but I believe that Sir James Tyrrell and Sir Richard Ratcliffe were members of the gentry, not the nobility, and Sir Edward Brampton, a converted Portuguese Jew, started out as an immigrant to England. I'm pretty sure that receiving a knighthood automatically raised him to the gentry.

Carol

The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.

----- Original Message -----
From: George Butterfield
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?



What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
duties .

George

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.

Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?

--- In
, "George Butterfield"
wrote:
>
> Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> birthday list
>
> I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
years
> as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
done
>
> ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>
>
>
> George
>
>
>
> From:

> [mailto:
] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> To:

> Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
>
>
> This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
but
> through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
> I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Talking of the Tydder have you seen that advert for Aviva where the long-nosed Welshaan goes around saying 'want to save a bit on heating, want to save a bit on lighting'. It just has to be him!



________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 10:16
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

 

The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.

----- Original Message -----
From: George Butterfield
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?

What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
duties .

George

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.

Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?

--- In
, "George Butterfield"
wrote:
>
> Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> birthday list
>
> I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
years
> as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
done
>
> ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>
>
>
> George
>
>
>
> From:

> [mailto:
] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> To:

> Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
>
>
> This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
but
> through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
> I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

No but I will think of him when I do.

----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?



Talking of the Tydder have you seen that advert for Aviva where the long-nosed Welshaan goes around saying 'want to save a bit on heating, want to save a bit on lighting'. It just has to be him!

________________________________
From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 10:16
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?



The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.

----- Original Message -----
From: George Butterfield
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?

What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
duties .

George

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.

Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?

--- In
, "George Butterfield"
wrote:
>
> Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> birthday list
>
> I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
years
> as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
done
>
> ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>
>
>
> George
>
>
>
> From:

> [mailto:
] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> To:

> Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
>
>
> This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
but
> through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
> I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

If the Weasel had truly been king, would Brandon's knighting have been legal? Can an anointed king knight an ordinary person on the field of battle? Thanks! Maire.

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George Butterfield
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
> What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> duties .
>
> George
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
> Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
>
> Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
>
> --- In
> , "George Butterfield"
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > birthday list
> >
> > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> years
> > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> done
> >
> > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> >
> >
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
>
> > [mailto:
> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > To:
>
> > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> but
> > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> >
> > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, unquestionably.

----- Original Message -----
From: mairemulholland
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?



If the Weasel had truly been king, would Brandon's knighting have been legal? Can an anointed king knight an ordinary person on the field of battle? Thanks! Maire.

--- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George Butterfield
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
> What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> duties .
>
> George
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
> Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
>
> Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
>
> --- In
> , "George Butterfield"
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > birthday list
> >
> > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> years
> > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> done
> >
> > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> >
> >
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
>
> > [mailto:
> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > To:
>
> > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> but
> > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> >
> > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Stephen. Maire.

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, unquestionably.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mairemulholland
> To:
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
>
> If the Weasel had truly been king, would Brandon's knighting have been legal? Can an anointed king knight an ordinary person on the field of battle? Thanks! Maire.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: George Butterfield
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
> > Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> >
> >
> > What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> > Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> > performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> > dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> > Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> > duties .
> >
> > George
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> > Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> > have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
> >
> > Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
> >
> > --- In
> > , "George Butterfield"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > > birthday list
> > >
> > > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> > years
> > > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> > done
> > >
> > > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> >
> > > [mailto:
> > ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > > To:
> >
> > > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> > but
> > > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> > >
> > > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Further Confusing to many regarding 'Knighthoods' 

1.] Vast Majority of modern Knights  = K.B.E. [Although the 'Empire no longer exists]

2.] Top Minority of Knights - K.G. [The Garter = Royalty & people of GREAT service [Such as Churchill] I think only 12 members + Royals - Parade @ Windsor.

3.] Military [+Naval + R.A.F.] Knights - Order of the Bath [K.B.] Parade @ Westminster Abbey.

4.] St. Michael & St. George. Tends to be awarded  to 'Diplomats' Top Civil Servants.

5.] Royal Victorian Order. Knighthoods in the Specific 'Gift of the Sovereign' 
    for service to Royal family.

6.] Knight of the Thistle - Scotland's 'Order of Knighthood.

7.] The Order of St. Patrick - As above for Ireland.

8.] Order of the Indian Empire. British India.

I am UNCERTAIN as to the last three still being in use.

There are/were junior awards within these 'Orders of Knighthood' i.e. M.B.E., upto O.B.E., then K.B.E.

The order of the Garter, is I understand, the senior  'Order' It was established by King Edward III.

I think [From memory] the above is largely correct.

Some people REFUSE knighthoods & opt for O.M. [Order of Merit.]

 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
>To: "<>" <>
>Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2013, 23:56
>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>Since I already commented on being a princess, I guess asking for a Dame-hood is totally out of the question! RATS
>
>On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:17 PM, "George Butterfield" <gbutterf1@...<mailto:gbutterf1@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
>Not just an OBE but the full range of distinctions.
>George
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>[mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Pamela Bain
>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:33 PM
>To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>Isn't that the Order of the British Empire????
>
>On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:59 PM, "George Butterfield"
>gbutterf1@...<mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com>gbutterf1@...<mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com>>> wrote:
>
>Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
>inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's birthday
>list
>
>I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
>as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done
>
>( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
>never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>
>George
>
>From:
><mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>[mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
>To:
><mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
>knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
>through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
>I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
>like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

>There are/were junior awards within these 'Orders of Knighthood' i.e. M.B.E.,
upto O.B.E., then K.B.E.

Or in the case of St Michael & St George, the Civil Service one:

CMG: "Call me God"
KCMG: "Kindly call me God"
GCMG: "God calls me God"

Jonathan

(Correct typo in original post.)


________________________________
From: Arthurian <lancastrian@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 12:37
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?


 
Further Confusing to many regarding 'Knighthoods' 

1.] Vast Majority of modern Knights  = K.B.E. [Although the 'Empire no longer exists]

2.] Top Minority of Knights - K.G. [The Garter = Royalty & people of GREAT service [Such as Churchill] I think only 12 members + Royals - Parade @ Windsor.

3.] Military [+Naval + R.A.F.] Knights - Order of the Bath [K.B.] Parade @ Westminster Abbey.

4.] St. Michael & St. George. Tends to be awarded  to 'Diplomats' Top Civil Servants.

5.] Royal Victorian Order. Knighthoods in the Specific 'Gift of the Sovereign' 
    for service to Royal family.

6.] Knight of the Thistle - Scotland's 'Order of Knighthood.

7.] The Order of St. Patrick - As above for Ireland.

8.] Order of the Indian Empire. British India.

I am UNCERTAIN as to the last three still being in use.

There are/were junior awards within these 'Orders of Knighthood' i.e. M.B.E., upto O.B.E., then K.B.E.

The order of the Garter, is I understand, the senior  'Order' It was established by King Edward III.

I think [From memory] the above is largely correct.

Some people REFUSE knighthoods & opt for O.M. [Order of Merit.]

 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.

>________________________________
> From: Pamela Bain pbain@...>
>To: ">" >
>Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2013, 23:56
>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>Since I already commented on being a princess, I guess asking for a Dame-hood is totally out of the question! RATS
>
>On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:17 PM, "George Butterfield" [email protected]@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
>Not just an OBE but the full range of distinctions.
>George
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
>[mailto:] On Behalf Of Pamela Bain
>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:33 PM
>To: >
>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>Isn't that the Order of the British Empire????
>
>On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:59 PM, "George Butterfield"
>[email protected]@...>> wrote:
>
>Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
>inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's birthday
>list
>
>I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
>as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done
>
>( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
>never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>
>George
>
>From:
>
>
>[mailto:
>] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
>To:
>
>
>Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
>knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
>through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>
>I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
>like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

O.B.E. = 'Other Buggers Effort'.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 13:01
>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
> 
>>There are/were junior awards within these 'Orders of Knighthood' i.e. M.B.E.,
>upto O.B.E., then K.B.E.
>
>Or in the case of St Michael & St George, the Civil Service one:
>
>CMG: "Call me God"
>KCMG: "Kindly call me God"
>GCMG: "God calls me God"
>
>Jonathan
>
>(Correct typo in original post.)
>
>________________________________
>From: Arthurian lancastrian@...>
>To: "" >
>Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 12:37
>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
> 
>Further Confusing to many regarding 'Knighthoods' 
>
>1.] Vast Majority of modern Knights  = K.B.E. [Although the 'Empire no longer exists]
>
>2.] Top Minority of Knights - K.G. [The Garter = Royalty & people of GREAT service [Such as Churchill] I think only 12 members + Royals - Parade @ Windsor.
>
>3.] Military [+Naval + R.A.F.] Knights - Order of the Bath [K.B.] Parade @ Westminster Abbey.
>
>4.] St. Michael & St. George. Tends to be awarded  to 'Diplomats' Top Civil Servants.
>
>5.] Royal Victorian Order. Knighthoods in the Specific 'Gift of the Sovereign' 
>    for service to Royal family.
>
>6.] Knight of the Thistle - Scotland's 'Order of Knighthood.
>
>7.] The Order of St. Patrick - As above for Ireland.
>
>8.] Order of the Indian Empire. British India.
>
>I am UNCERTAIN as to the last three still being in use.
>
>There are/were junior awards within these 'Orders of Knighthood' i.e. M.B.E., upto O.B.E., then K.B.E.
>
>The order of the Garter, is I understand, the senior  'Order' It was established by King Edward III.
>
>I think [From memory] the above is largely correct.
>
>Some people REFUSE knighthoods & opt for O.M. [Order of Merit.]
>
> 
>Kind Regards,
> 
>Arthur.
>
>>________________________________
>> From: Pamela Bain pbain@...>
>>To: ">
>>Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2013, 23:56
>>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>>
>>Since I already commented on being a princess, I guess asking for a Dame-hood is totally out of the question! RATS
>>
>>On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:17 PM, "George Butterfield" [email protected]@...>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Not just an OBE but the full range of distinctions.
>>George
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From:
>>[mailto:] On Behalf Of Pamela Bain
>>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:33 PM
>>To: >
>>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>>
>>Isn't that the Order of the British Empire????
>>
>>On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:59 PM, "George Butterfield"
>>[email protected]@...>> wrote:
>>
>>Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
>>inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's birthday
>>list
>>
>>I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
>>as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done
>>
>>( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
>>never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>>
>>George
>>
>>From:
>>
>>
>>[mailto:
>>] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
>>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
>>To:
>>
>>
>>Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>>
>>This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
>>knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
>>through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>>
>>I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
>>like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Just like to say that the Tydder was half English and a quarter French and a quarter Welsh. Richard and his brothers and sisters were descended from Llewellyn the Great, Prince of Gywnedd through his daughter Gwladys Y Ddu who married one of the Mortimers, while the Tydder was only descended from Ednyfed Fychan who was Llewellyn's servant.

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Talking of the Tydder have you seen that advert for Aviva where the long-nosed Welshaan goes around saying 'want to save a bit on heating, want to save a bit on lighting'. It just has to be him!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 10:16
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>  
>
> The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George Butterfield
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?
>
> What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> duties .
>
> George
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
> Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
>
> Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
>
> --- In
> , "George Butterfield"
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > birthday list
> >
> > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> years
> > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> done
> >
> > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> >
> >
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
>
> > [mailto:
> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > To:
>
> > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> but
> > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> >
> > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Field Knighthoods.
Edward of Woodstock, Later known as the Black Prince, sailed for France campaign in France with his father king Edward III and as soon as he landed at La Hogue he received a knighthood from his father. 
He died just before the king which meant his son Richard II succeeded.

 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2013, 23:20
>Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
> 
>Thanks, George. I'm sure it was very, very rare that someone would be knighted on the field of battle. I'll investigate the Captain at Crecy. Thanks so much for the help! Maire.
>
>--- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
>>
>> What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
>> Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
>> performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
>> dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
>> Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
>> duties .
>>
>>
>>
>> George
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From:
>> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
>> have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
>>
>> Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
>>
>> --- In
>> , "George Butterfield"
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
>> > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
>> > birthday list
>> >
>> > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
>> years
>> > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
>> done
>> >
>> > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
>> > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > George
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From:
>>
>> > [mailto:
>> ] On Behalf Of
>> mairemulholland
>> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
>> > To:
>>
>> > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
>> > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
>> but
>> > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
>> >
>> > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
>> > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

Are you saying Richard spoke with a Welsh accent?

--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> Just like to say that the Tydder was half English and a quarter French and a quarter Welsh. Richard and his brothers and sisters were descended from Llewellyn the Great, Prince of Gywnedd through his daughter Gwladys Y Ddu who married one of the Mortimers, while the Tydder was only descended from Ednyfed Fychan who was Llewellyn's servant.
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Talking of the Tydder have you seen that advert for Aviva where the long-nosed Welshaan goes around saying 'want to save a bit on heating, want to save a bit on lighting'. It just has to be him!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 10:16
> > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> >  
> >
> > The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: George Butterfield
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
> > Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> > What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> > Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> > performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> > dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> > Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> > duties .
> >
> > George
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> > Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> > have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
> >
> > Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
> >
> > --- In
> > , "George Butterfield"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > > birthday list
> > >
> > > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> > years
> > > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> > done
> > >
> > > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> >
> > > [mailto:
> > ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > > To:
> >
> > > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> > but
> > > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> > >
> > > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

No just that he was descended from the Princes of Gwynedd and had some Welsh ancestry. A lot is made of the fact that the Tydder was Welsh when in fact he was more English than Welsh and as much French as Welsh. Actually he probably had a better claim to the French throne being descended from Catherine of Valois maybe that's why Louis gave him mercenaries to help in his quest for the English throne. Didn't Henry V try to claim the French throne?


--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Are you saying Richard spoke with a Welsh accent?
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > Just like to say that the Tydder was half English and a quarter French and a quarter Welsh. Richard and his brothers and sisters were descended from Llewellyn the Great, Prince of Gywnedd through his daughter Gwladys Y Ddu who married one of the Mortimers, while the Tydder was only descended from Ednyfed Fychan who was Llewellyn's servant.
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Talking of the Tydder have you seen that advert for Aviva where the long-nosed Welshaan goes around saying 'want to save a bit on heating, want to save a bit on lighting'. It just has to be him!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 10:16
> > > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: George Butterfield
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?
> > >
> > > What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> > > Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> > > performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> > > dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> > > Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> > > duties .
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > > From:
> > > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> > >
> > > Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> > > have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
> > >
> > > Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
> > >
> > > --- In
> > > , "George Butterfield"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > > > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > > > birthday list
> > > >
> > > > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> > > years
> > > > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> > > done
> > > >
> > > > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > > > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > George
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From:
> > >
> > > > [mailto:
> > > ] On Behalf Of
> > > mairemulholland
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > > > To:
> > >
> > > > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > > > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> > > but
> > > > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> > > >
> > > > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > > > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Sorry I was joking! Was not the English claim to the French throne (through Isabella wife of Edward II and sister to Les Rois Maudits) fundamentally flawed because women could not inheric - Salic law?



________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 14:28
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

 

No just that he was descended from the Princes of Gwynedd and had some Welsh ancestry. A lot is made of the fact that the Tydder was Welsh when in fact he was more English than Welsh and as much French as Welsh. Actually he probably had a better claim to the French throne being descended from Catherine of Valois maybe that's why Louis gave him mercenaries to help in his quest for the English throne. Didn't Henry V try to claim the French throne?


--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Are you saying Richard spoke with a Welsh accent?
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Just like to say that the Tydder was half English and a quarter French and a quarter Welsh. Richard and his brothers and sisters were descended from Llewellyn the Great, Prince of Gywnedd through his daughter Gwladys Y Ddu who married one of the Mortimers, while the Tydder was only descended from Ednyfed Fychan who was Llewellyn's servant.
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > >
> > > Talking of the Tydder have you seen that advert for Aviva where the long-nosed Welshaan goes around saying 'want to save a bit on heating, want to save a bit on lighting'. It just has to be him!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Lark
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 10:16
> > > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: George Butterfield
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?
> > >
> > > What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> > > Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> > > performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> > > dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> > > Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> > > duties .
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > > From:
> > > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> > >
> > > Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> > > have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
> > >
> > > Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
> > >
> > > --- In
> > > , "George Butterfield"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > > > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > > > birthday list
> > > >
> > > > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> > > years
> > > > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> > > done
> > > >
> > > > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > > > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > George
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From:
> > >
> > > > [mailto:
> > > ] On Behalf Of
> > > mairemulholland
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > > > To:
> > >
> > > > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > > > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> > > but
> > > > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> > > >
> > > > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > > > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

And of course the same would apply to Catherine whose brother inherited anyway - sorry forgot to add that. I don't think Henry had much of a claim anywhere.


--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry I was joking! Was not the English claim to the French throne (through Isabella wife of Edward II and sister to Les Rois Maudits) fundamentally flawed because women could not inheric - Salic law?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 14:28
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>  
>
> No just that he was descended from the Princes of Gwynedd and had some Welsh ancestry. A lot is made of the fact that the Tydder was Welsh when in fact he was more English than Welsh and as much French as Welsh. Actually he probably had a better claim to the French throne being descended from Catherine of Valois maybe that's why Louis gave him mercenaries to help in his quest for the English throne. Didn't Henry V try to claim the French throne?
>
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Are you saying Richard spoke with a Welsh accent?
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Just like to say that the Tydder was half English and a quarter French and a quarter Welsh. Richard and his brothers and sisters were descended from Llewellyn the Great, Prince of Gywnedd through his daughter Gwladys Y Ddu who married one of the Mortimers, while the Tydder was only descended from Ednyfed Fychan who was Llewellyn's servant.
> > >
> > > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Talking of the Tydder have you seen that advert for Aviva where the long-nosed Welshaan goes around saying 'want to save a bit on heating, want to save a bit on lighting'. It just has to be him!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Stephen Lark
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 10:16
> > > > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > The Tydder illegally knighted several of his followers before Bosworth, including Brandon who enjoyed it for just a few hours. The Earl of Essex did the same in Ireland in c.1600 against Elizabeth's specific instructions.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: George Butterfield
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: Could commoners become Knights?
> > > >
> > > > What a Welshman... I don't think so. However back to your question Yes a
> > > > Knighthood has been available to Kings for squires or people that had
> > > > performed exceptionally. I read that the Captain of Archers at Crecy was
> > > > dubbed on the battlefield though I feel that this did not occur often as a
> > > > Knight had to normally go through all sorts of purification and sacred
> > > > duties .
> > > >
> > > > George
> > > >
> > > > From:
> > > > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:06 PM
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
> > > >
> > > > Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would
> > > > have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
> > > >
> > > > Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> > > > , "George Butterfield"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > > > > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > > > > birthday list
> > > > >
> > > > > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many
> > > > years
> > > > > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well
> > > > done
> > > > >
> > > > > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > > > > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > George
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From:
> > > >
> > > > > [mailto:
> > > > ] On Behalf Of
> > > > mairemulholland
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > > > > To:
> > > >
> > > > > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > > > > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility,
> > > > but
> > > > > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > > > > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?


> Are you saying Richard spoke with a Welsh accent?

Seriously, the reconstruction Leicester did of his voice does actually sound
rather like a Forest of Dean accent, which is on the Welsh border - although
I don't suppose we know what a Yorkshire accent sounded like in those days.

This was just a bit of banter - I think we've been through the accent thing a couple of weeks's ago if you want to look back.



________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 14:59
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

 

From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

> Are you saying Richard spoke with a Welsh accent?

Seriously, the reconstruction Leicester did of his voice does actually sound
rather like a Forest of Dean accent, which is on the Welsh border - although
I don't suppose we know what a Yorkshire accent sounded like in those days.

Maire wrote:
>
> If the Weasel had truly been king, would Brandon's knighting have been legal? Can an anointed king knight an ordinary person on the field of battle? Thanks! Maire.

Carol responds:

Edward knighted Hastings on the field of battle at Towton. I think that Richard knighted Brampton under similar circumstances during the Scottish campaign. I suggest Googling "knighted on the field of battle" and.or "knighted on the battlefield" (in quotes) and seeing what you find.

Carol

Arthurian wrote:

"Further Confusing to many regarding 'Knighthoods'
1.] Vast Majority of modern Knights = K.B.E. [Although the 'Empire no longer
exists]
2.] Top Minority of Knights - K.G. [The Garter = Royalty & people of GREAT
service [Such as Churchill] I think only 12 members + Royals - Parade @
Windsor.
3.] Military [+Naval + R.A.F.] Knights - Order of the Bath [K.B.] Parade @
Westminster Abbey.
4.] St. Michael & St. George. Tends to be awarded to 'Diplomats' Top Civil
Servants.
5.] Royal Victorian Order. Knighthoods in the Specific 'Gift of the
Sovereign'
for service to Royal family.
6.] Knight of the Thistle - Scotland's 'Order of Knighthood.
7.] The Order of St. Patrick - As above for Ireland.
8.] Order of the Indian Empire. British India.
I am UNCERTAIN as to the last three still being in use.
There are/were junior awards within these 'Orders of Knighthood' i.e.
M.B.E., upto O.B.E., then K.B.E.
The order of the Garter, is I understand, the senior 'Order' It was
established by King Edward III.
I think [From memory] the above is largely correct."

Thank you Arthur, I always gotten confused about the differences. Well,
except for the "Garter", I did know it was the highest.
The Orders for Irish and Scottish knights are possibly still extant, but
would be limited to services provided by the recipient to those countries,
Northern Ireland and Scotland, rather than the UK as a whole. I seem to
recall various Indians with "Sir" in front of their names from when I was
stationed in England/Scotland, but I would imagine they were
residents/citizens of the UK and not of the Republic of India.
When one becomes a UK citizen, if I understand it properly, one doesn't have
to give up one's previous citizenship. Then there's the "Commonwealth"
effect to consider. Or has that changed recently? At any rate, I'm going
from what British friends/acquaintances from the 1980s/90s have told me.
And my memory, so there's that to consider...
Doug

Hilary Jones wrote:
//snip//
"Was not the English claim to the French throne (through Isabella wife of
Edward II and sister to Les Rois Maudits) fundamentally flawed because women
could not inheric - Salic law?"

Doug here:
You're quite right that under French law a woman could neither inherit the
throne nor pass that claim on to her sons. If a French king died childless,
his heir was the nearest male relative in a direct male descent (father to
son and onwards). If the king had brothers, then his heir would be the
oldest of them. If that brother was already dead, then HIS son/grandson/etc
would be the heir. Then the next younger brother and so on. If the king had
no male siblings, or those siblings had no male offspring, then the heir
would come from those descended from the king's uncles, or even
great-uncles. I believe that's how Henri of Navarre (Henri VI?) got the
throne.
However under English law, if I understand it correctly, the laws of
primogeniture applied only to the use of titles and properties. While a
woman couldn't, usually, become a Duchess in her own right, she could pass
those claims on to her son/s and that was how the claim to the French throne
by various English kings was made. I believe they (the English claimants)
also used as examples occasions where French law allowed non-royal
inheritances; ie, duchies, etc., where women COULD inherit and/or pass that
inheritance to their children.
Doug

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Sorry I was joking! Was not the English claim to the French throne (through Isabella wife of Edward II and sister to Les Rois Maudits) fundamentally flawed because women could not inheric - Salic law?

Carol responds:

Salic Law or not, IIRC, Henry married Catherine of Valois to help cement his claim to the French throne and somehow convinced Catherine's father to disinherit his own son, the dauphin, to make Henry his heir. The fact that he had won so many battles and claimed so much of France for England was probably the deciding factor. Of course, almost all of that land was lost under Henry VI and the dauphin eventually became king, so it was all for nothing. And worse, Catherine of Valois brought a strain of insanity into the Lancastrian and possibly the Tudor lines.

I suspect that Henry's claim to the French throne (not sure how strong it was but it was better than his English claim) was one reason that the French eventually supported him, especially after Louis died and they had a child king and a female regent. But they also wanted Henry's gratitude and were afraid that Richard would make war with France to regain those lost French possessions.

All of which makes me wish that the Lancastrians had never come to the throne!

Carol

Medieval Knighthood was very different from today.

The modern system purports to be rewarding people for "public service"; in fact its all about the establishment buying the support of the rich and famous with empty titles that cost them nothing.

In the Middle ages it was essentially about military service; a knight was expected to be fully kitted out as a mounted warrior, so that he could be at the King's service for foreign wars. All this gear, especially war horses and plate armour, cost several times the average gentry landowner's annual income. 
This is why many men tried to avoid knighthood, and could be fined or even imprisoned for refusing it.

Men who owned land worth over a certain amount (I think £100) were expected to become knights regardless of their friendship or service to the king; it was a responsibility of the wealthy.

The "nobility" in the 15th century were precisely those families who were a rank above knighthood; that is the Peers, Barons or Lords entitled to a personal summons to Parliament. Nevertheless, all men in the noble rank would receive knighthood, as the military obligation applied no less to them.

The vast majority of men knighted in our period received the honour either on the battlefield, or on some special Royal occasion such a marriage or Coronation. 

Some men of lower than gentry rank received knighthood, notably all Lord Mayor's of London (drawn from the merchant class), who would then use their wealth to purchase manors and become new members of the gentry. The lists also include a few priests and private chaplains to Royalty, perhaps early examples of the greasy modern system coming into being.

The Garter was a special mark of personal favour from the King, a major magnate usually would be nominated, but often lower ranks with close ties to the monarch would be chosen, Ratcliffe being a good example.


________________________________
From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2013, 21:43
Subject: Could commoners become Knights?


 
This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?

I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would like to know. Thanks! Maire.

H5 may have claimed the throne through right of conquest (as indeed did H7 in England) but I think you'll find that H7 had no claim to French throne. Why on earth would the French have wanted a Welsh king? As in the case of Isabella there would always have been a male cousin . And there's no reason to think that the French after the death of Louis XI would have supported a Welshman over his regent daughter and his son Charles XIII.  We know they disliked Richard but that would have been one step too far, surely. Salic Law - women cannot succeed in Salic lands, even recited by Shakespeare in H5.
 

________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 17:50
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?

 

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Sorry I was joking! Was not the English claim to the French throne (through Isabella wife of Edward II and sister to Les Rois Maudits) fundamentally flawed because women could not inheric - Salic law?

Carol responds:

Salic Law or not, IIRC, Henry married Catherine of Valois to help cement his claim to the French throne and somehow convinced Catherine's father to disinherit his own son, the dauphin, to make Henry his heir. The fact that he had won so many battles and claimed so much of France for England was probably the deciding factor. Of course, almost all of that land was lost under Henry VI and the dauphin eventually became king, so it was all for nothing. And worse, Catherine of Valois brought a strain of insanity into the Lancastrian and possibly the Tudor lines.

I suspect that Henry's claim to the French throne (not sure how strong it was but it was better than his English claim) was one reason that the French eventually supported him, especially after Louis died and they had a child king and a female regent. But they also wanted Henry's gratitude and were afraid that Richard would make war with France to regain those lost French possessions.

All of which makes me wish that the Lancastrians had never come to the throne!

Carol

Hilary the Tydder wasn't Welsh, he was as much French as he was Welsh and he was half English. I think that he probably used the fact that one of his grandfathers was Welsh to gain support in Wales. There is a statue of him in Cardiff which describes him as a Welsh hero, well he wasn't a hero either. He never fought in a battle in his life unlike Richard who had fought and was fighting at Bosworth to save his country. What little we know about Richard shows that he ruled for the benefit of the country and he considered the people unlike the Lancastrians or the Tudors.

I am sure that Richard was no angel but what we know about him does show that he did not deserve his reputation. I agree about Salic Law but quite frankly I wouldn't put it past Henry to have suggested that he had a claim to the French throne through his grandmother Catherine of Valois especially as he claimed the English throne as the Lancastrian heir when he most definitely wasn't the heir to Lancaster. Even the Lancastrians weren't the true heirs because Henry Bolinbroke usurped the throne from Richard II.

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> H5 may have claimed the throne through right of conquest (as indeed did H7 in England) but I think you'll find that H7 had no claim to French throne. Why on earth would the French have wanted a Welsh king? As in the case of Isabella there would always have been a male cousin . And there's no reason to think that the French after the death of Louis XI would have supported a Welshman over his regent daughter and his son Charles XIII.  We know they disliked Richard but that would have been one step too far, surely. Salic Law - women cannot succeed in Salic lands, even recited by Shakespeare in H5.
>  
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 17:50
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>  
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Sorry I was joking! Was not the English claim to the French throne (through Isabella wife of Edward II and sister to Les Rois Maudits) fundamentally flawed because women could not inheric - Salic law?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Salic Law or not, IIRC, Henry married Catherine of Valois to help cement his claim to the French throne and somehow convinced Catherine's father to disinherit his own son, the dauphin, to make Henry his heir. The fact that he had won so many battles and claimed so much of France for England was probably the deciding factor. Of course, almost all of that land was lost under Henry VI and the dauphin eventually became king, so it was all for nothing. And worse, Catherine of Valois brought a strain of insanity into the Lancastrian and possibly the Tudor lines.
>
> I suspect that Henry's claim to the French throne (not sure how strong it was but it was better than his English claim) was one reason that the French eventually supported him, especially after Louis died and they had a child king and a female regent. But they also wanted Henry's gratitude and were afraid that Richard would make war with France to regain those lost French possessions.
>
> All of which makes me wish that the Lancastrians had never come to the throne!
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: ricard1an
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?


> Hilary the Tydder wasn't Welsh, he was as much French as he was Welsh and
> he was half English. I think that he probably used the fact that one of
> his grandfathers was Welsh to gain support in Wales. There is a statue of
> him in Cardiff which describes him as a Welsh hero, well he wasn't a hero
> either. He never fought in a battle in his life

To be fair, though, it must have taken one hell of a lot of nerve to go into
that battle as a civilian, knowing that he was one of the two biggests
targets in the field, and just sit and wait to see if Richard was going to
reach him or not, and not bolt.

Yes I suppose so, however, Michael Jones has him hiding inside the pike wall in his book about Bosworth. I am not sure if he got that idea from the letter from the French mercenarie that he found in Rouen or from somewhere else. My copy is packed away after moving.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: ricard1an
> To:
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 10:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?
>
>
> > Hilary the Tydder wasn't Welsh, he was as much French as he was Welsh and
> > he was half English. I think that he probably used the fact that one of
> > his grandfathers was Welsh to gain support in Wales. There is a statue of
> > him in Cardiff which describes him as a Welsh hero, well he wasn't a hero
> > either. He never fought in a battle in his life
>
> To be fair, though, it must have taken one hell of a lot of nerve to go into
> that battle as a civilian, knowing that he was one of the two biggests
> targets in the field, and just sit and wait to see if Richard was going to
> reach him or not, and not bolt.
>

--- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, sorry, George, I was thinking of Richard's time. (Do you think he would have knighted Tom Jones?) Maire.
>
> Seriously, would that have been possible in the 15th century? Anybody?

YMarie replies:
ou wouldn't have got knighted for singing in the 15th century, but you could certainly have been knighted for good service, particularly on the battlefield. Think of Edward Brampton, whose origins are so obscure we don't even know his original, Jewish, name (Duarte Brandao, the name he called himself in Portugal later on, seems to be just a translation of Edward Brampton).



>
> --- In , "George Butterfield" <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes you can get a Knighthood through service to country etc. the many
> > inventors actors, singers etc This is normally done for the Queen's
> > birthday list
> >
> > I have no idea when this tradition started but it does date back many years
> > as a way for the monarchy (and now parliament) to say thank you or well done
> >
> > ( I lived next door to a Knight in England retired diplomatic corps as he
> > never spoke to us we called him silent knight)
> >
> >
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:43 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Could commoners become Knights?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is an important question for me as a writer. I know the system of
> > knighthood but I was wondering - could someone who was not of nobility, but
> > through works of great courage and loyalty in wartime, be knighted?
> >
> > I hope this doesn't come across as a really stupid question - I just would
> > like to know. Thanks! Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, George. I'm sure it was very, very rare that someone would be knighted on the field of battle.

Marie:
It was actually very very common; we have lists of those knighted at certain battles.

From: ricard1an
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: Could commoners become Knights?


> Yes I suppose so, however, Michael Jones has him hiding inside the pike
> wall in his book about Bosworth. I am not sure if he got that idea from
> the letter from the French mercenarie that he found in Rouen or from
> somewhere else. My copy is packed away after moving.

I know it's a terrible admission for a life-long Ricardian to make, but I've
always had a soft spot for Henry. He didn't really have many choices - his
Lancastrian connections made him too much of a political hot potato to be
allowed to just slope off and grow cabbages for a living or whatever. He
had to be what France wanted him to be. And although he did better out of
the situation than Richard his life was no bed of roses. He was taken away
from his mother as a toddler and sent into exile, and he had a girl he was
in love with - I forget her name - whom he wasn't able to marry because she
was a commoner and he had to be king. And he too lost an adored son.

I have often thought that it's one of the great tragedies of British history
that Henry couldn't have been Richard's Lord Chancellor, because as a
combination they would have been unbeatable, and I suspect they would have
liked one another - in a mutually appalled sort of way.

Thanks for the correction, Marie. Can I ask how those knightings would have been carried out? Would they have been quickly done and then, perhaps, later on a more formal ceremony? Honestly, I'm asing out of tottal ignorance! Maire.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, George. I'm sure it was very, very rare that someone would be knighted on the field of battle.
>
> Marie:
> It was actually very very common; we have lists of those knighted at certain battles.
>

Thanks, Marie. It looks like my post to this has disappeared so forgive me for repeating myself: how would a battlefield knighting unfold? Quickly and with a ceremony held later?

P.S.: I just want to thank you again for all your brilliant posts. You've taught me so much about Richard and his times. Your posts are invaluable! Fondly, Maire.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, George. I'm sure it was very, very rare that someone would be knighted on the field of battle.
>
> Marie:
> It was actually very very common; we have lists of those knighted at certain battles.
>

--- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:
>
> If the Weasel had truly been king, would Brandon's knighting have been legal? Can an anointed king knight an ordinary person on the field of battle? Thanks! Maire.

Yes, yes yes!
Marie

There would have been no need for a formal ceremony at court afterwards.
Marie

--- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the correction, Marie. Can I ask how those knightings would have been carried out? Would they have been quickly done and then, perhaps, later on a more formal ceremony? Honestly, I'm asing out of tottal ignorance! Maire.
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, George. I'm sure it was very, very rare that someone would be knighted on the field of battle.
> >
> > Marie:
> > It was actually very very common; we have lists of those knighted at certain battles.
> >
>

Of course he did. He sounded just like Richard Burton, which won't make Olivier happy.

(I've just given myself a nightmare about Sir Ridley Scott making a Life of Richard III that stars Russell Crowe, whom I swear has been trying to sound like Burton for years.)

~Weds



--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Are you saying Richard spoke with a Welsh accent?
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > Just like to say that the Tydder was half English and a quarter French and a quarter Welsh. Richard and his brothers and sisters were descended from Llewellyn the Great, Prince of Gywnedd through his daughter Gwladys Y Ddu who married one of the Mortimers, while the Tydder was only descended from Ednyfed Fychan who was Llewellyn's servant.