Wounds

I have deliberately used this title so that those who are bothered by this
type of discussion can avoid this post. If you are, please don't continue
to read. I understand those feelings, but I think we need to be able to
discuss all aspects here, if done w/ respect.

Here's a link to an interesting article-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21441319 . It's about "Richard III
wounds match medieval Welsh poem description"
He doesn't get it quite right, but here's an excerpt...
"It sheds an entirely new light on a familiar poem by a Welsh poet called
Guto'r Glyn," said Prof Johnston.

"He composed a poem in praise of Rhys ap Tomos, one of the main supporters
of Henry Tudor in his campaign to gain the crown of England."

"Rhys led an army of Welshmen to support Henry on the battlefield at
Bosworth, and was then knighted for his services to the king.

"Not long after, Guto'r Glyn visited him in his court and sang a poem in
praise of his exploits, and he talks about what happened on the battlefield
and the killing of Richard.

"He actually says his head was 'shaved'. I previously understood that in a
figurative sense, and that his head had been chopped off. "

Johnston goes to make the mistaken assumption that the "shaved" part was off
the top of the head, rather than as we know from the bottom of the back of
the skull. Still an interesting reveal of a Welsh poem apparently recited
to the usurper Henry within weeks of the battle that validates the wounds to
the Greyfriars Warrior, ie Richard.

T

From: Terry Buckaloo
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 1:47 AM
Subject: Wounds


> Johnston goes to make the mistaken assumption that the "shaved" part was
> off
the top of the head, rather than as we know from the bottom of the back of
the skull.

Thanks, that solves that. I'd certainly rather think that the "shaved" bit
referred to the shallow slice we know was taken off his skull, rather than
that they actually shaved his hair off.

I was wondering about that wound (even more gruesomeness alert). We know
that the slice of bone remained attached, since it's in the grave with him
and in the right position. Local tradition says that his head was broken
against Bow Bridge as he was carried into Leicester and we can see that's
not true (it took Jo Appleby - sorry, I mustn't be rotten...), but if his
head did scrape against the bridge in the crush, it's quite possible that
that caused this wound to flex and open up, and the people who saw it might
well think it had only just happened.

"Claire M Jordan" wrote:
>[snip]
> I was wondering about that wound (even more gruesomeness alert). We know that the slice of bone remained attached, since it's in the grave with him and in the right position. Local tradition says that his head was broken against Bow Bridge as he was carried into Leicester and we can see that's not true (it took Jo Appleby - sorry, I mustn't be rotten...), but if his head did scrape against the bridge in the crush, it's quite possible that that caused this wound to flex and open up, and the people who saw it might well think it had only just happened.
>
Carol responds:

His head didn't hit against the bridge, scraping or otherwise. That's a "prediction" of his death after the fact. Old women with second sight make similar "predictions" in many folk tales. That isn't history; it's legend.

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: Wounds


> His head didn't hit against the bridge, scraping or otherwise. That's a
"prediction" of his death after the fact. Old women with second sight make
similar "predictions" in many folk tales. That isn't history; it's legend.

Yes, but the legend says the prediction came true, and just because
something is a legend is not actually the same as saying it isn't true
(really - I did a unit on folklore and oral tradition at university and was
one of Hamish Henderson's favourite students). It just means it's an
oft-told tale transmitted locally, and in fact they usually contain a
definite element of truth, although also usually revamped a bit to make a
better story. The Scottish legend of Margery Cockburn, the Border Widow,
for instance, referring to events in the 15th or early 16th C, took place on
a farm called Henderland in the Borders which is farmed by the family of a
friend of mine, and all of it that's capable of verification seems to be
true except that Pierce Cockburn was taken away and executed in Edinburgh,
instead of being executed at Henderland itself as the legend has it.

If you don't like the idea of a prediction coming true you can assume the
prediction was inserted after the fact - although not believing in
predictions sits oddly with anyone who has watched Philippa telling the
archaeology crew where to dig for Richard.