Hyperthyroid

I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.

Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?

Hello! (My first post here after lurking a while)

I think it is entirely possible that Richard had a thyroid issue -- the slight build, small stature, the scoliosis. But I can't reconcile the "lack of physical strength" ... he had alays been accounted a very strong warrior, even in his youth.

Wanda from California




--- In , "elleynia" <elleynia@...> wrote:
>
> I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
>
> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
>

From: elleynia
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:24 PM
Subject: Hyperthyroid


> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the
> restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the
> descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical
> strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked
> and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't
> suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety
> and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with
> scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?

It's not impossible he could have had it mildly I suppose, but he seems to
have been exceptionally strong, despite being skinny, and far from being
paranoid he seems to have been unduly trusting.

The restlessness and fiddling, if it has any significance, could also be a
sign of mild Asperger's Syndrome which often goes with very high
intelligence, rather obsessive behaviour (the inability to delegate),
excitability, social innocence, honesty and lack of deviousness.

That's an interesting question. My initial assessment would be no; from the historical record (truncated and gappish as it may be), I get a picture of Richard, as Duke of Gloucester and king, as kindly, decisive, productive, intelligent, proactive, and fair-minded. Far from being anxious or paranoid (as the Tudor-sponsored propaganda campaign said), he seems to have been genial, tolerant, and astonishingly nice to his opponents. That doesn't square with a nervous personality.

Too, he was a proven battle-leader from a young age, and that's not an activity to which anxiety would contribute successfully.

It's going to be impossible to prove one way or the other, though, since there just simply isn't enough evidence, and never will be.

--- In , "elleynia" <elleynia@...> wrote:
>
> I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
>
> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
>

From: wandasue_101
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> I think it is entirely possible that Richard had a thyroid issue -- the
> slight build, small stature, the scoliosis. But I can't reconcile the
> "lack of physical strength" ... he had alays been accounted a very strong
> warrior, even in his youth.

The slight build and excitability, maybe. But don't forget that the
forensic team said that without the scoliosis he would have been about
5'8" - which was probably above average height.

It develops over time and could explain some suggested changes in behaviour patterns.

It would explain why a man who does seem to have a good reputation previously might start to do some out of character things.



--- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...> wrote:
>
> That's an interesting question. My initial assessment would be no; from the historical record (truncated and gappish as it may be), I get a picture of Richard, as Duke of Gloucester and king, as kindly, decisive, productive, intelligent, proactive, and fair-minded. Far from being anxious or paranoid (as the Tudor-sponsored propaganda campaign said), he seems to have been genial, tolerant, and astonishingly nice to his opponents. That doesn't square with a nervous personality.
>
> Too, he was a proven battle-leader from a young age, and that's not an activity to which anxiety would contribute successfully.
>
> It's going to be impossible to prove one way or the other, though, since there just simply isn't enough evidence, and never will be.
>
> --- In , "elleynia" <elleynia@> wrote:
> >
> > I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
> >
> > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
> >
>

I don't know that it would have affected his height. My Dad had it and he's 6 foot.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: wandasue_101
> To:
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
>
>
> > I think it is entirely possible that Richard had a thyroid issue -- the
> > slight build, small stature, the scoliosis. But I can't reconcile the
> > "lack of physical strength" ... he had alays been accounted a very strong
> > warrior, even in his youth.
>
> The slight build and excitability, maybe. But don't forget that the
> forensic team said that without the scoliosis he would have been about
> 5'8" - which was probably above average height.
>

How do we know he was exceptionally strong?

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: elleynia
> To:
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:24 PM
> Subject: Hyperthyroid
>
>
> > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the
> > restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the
> > descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical
> > strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked
> > and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't
> > suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety
> > and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with
> > scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
>
> It's not impossible he could have had it mildly I suppose, but he seems to
> have been exceptionally strong, despite being skinny, and far from being
> paranoid he seems to have been unduly trusting.
>
> The restlessness and fiddling, if it has any significance, could also be a
> sign of mild Asperger's Syndrome which often goes with very high
> intelligence, rather obsessive behaviour (the inability to delegate),
> excitability, social innocence, honesty and lack of deviousness.
>

From: elleynia
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> How do we know he was exceptionally strong?

There was this apparently very short but famously strong Silesian diplomat
and soldier called von Poppelau who travelled everywhere with an enormous
lance which he challenged all-comers to lift. Hardly anybody could, but
iirc Richard could. He's also reported to have lifted an opponent bodily
out of his saddle and thrown him.

Really? I would have thought that sort of muscle development would have shown on his skeleton.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: elleynia
> To:
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
>
>
> > How do we know he was exceptionally strong?
>
> There was this apparently very short but famously strong Silesian diplomat
> and soldier called von Poppelau who travelled everywhere with an enormous
> lance which he challenged all-comers to lift. Hardly anybody could, but
> iirc Richard could. He's also reported to have lifted an opponent bodily
> out of his saddle and thrown him.
>

From: elleynia
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> Really? I would have thought that sort of muscle development would have
shown on his skeleton.

It's a modern myth that the fit man should have arms like a pair of tights
stuffed with walnuts. People who really live by their muscles, such as
hunter-gatherers, are usually lean.

Lack of physical strength? You haven't read about Richard's last moments, I take it. He killed William Brandon (Tydder standard bearer) and threw the giant Sir John Cheyne.

----- Original Message -----
From: wandasue_101
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid



Hello! (My first post here after lurking a while)

I think it is entirely possible that Richard had a thyroid issue -- the slight build, small stature, the scoliosis. But I can't reconcile the "lack of physical strength" ... he had alays been accounted a very strong warrior, even in his youth.

Wanda from California

--- In , "elleynia" wrote:
>
> I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
>
> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
>

"elleynia" wrote:
>
> I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
>
> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?

Carol responds:

As others have mentioned (and Lin Foxhall, chairman of the University of Leicester pointed out when the skeleton was first excavated), Richard, despite his delicate appearance and apparent scoliosis, was active and strong. The supposed insomnia appears to be a myth (though it would be no surprise if he got only a little sleep on the night before a major battle). The restlessness and fidgeting are not mentioned by any contemporary chronicler and first appear in Vergil, who is building on Rous's account or Richard as a scorpion/Anti-Christ. We're trying here (how successfully, I don't know) to sort fact from fiction and discard any legends with no basis in contemporary sources (and even those are biased, incomplete, and sometimes erroneous). But since those who knew him or saw him and later wrote hostile accounts, Rous among them, don't include such details as chewing his lower lip and playing nervously with his dagger, I would hesitate before accepting them as factual.

As for his massive overreaction and paranoia, I'm guessing that you're referring to his charge at Bosworth. If you have time, you might want to do a site search and read some of the earlier posts on that topic. We haven't reached any consensus, but you might find some of the views expressed interesting. I suspect that new books on Bosworth will be coming out to bring together the new information about Richard himself and the discovery of a new site for the battlefield.

Sorry to say nothing about hyperthyroid, but medicine is not my field.

Carol

"elleynia" wrote:
>
> It develops over time and could explain some suggested changes in behaviour patterns.
>
> It would explain why a man who does seem to have a good reputation previously might start to do some out of character things.

Carol responds:

And then slip back into the character of beneficent ruler as king? Are you by any chance familiar with the laws passed by Richard's only Parliament or his other actions that benefited widows and the common people?

The problem with the Protectorate, where he seems to slip out of character into "ruthlessness" (four political executions) and ambition (deposing his nephew and taking the crown), is that Titulus Regius and a pair of biased chroniclers aside, we have a dearth of information, only a few letters that show a definite break in the progress of events from normal preparations for a coronation to confusion and fears of treason. Everything, or almost everything depends on two points, both of them subject to interpretation: whether there really was a plot against the Protector's life involving Hastings and whether Edward really was married to Eleanor Butler (a precontract is a previous marriage, not a betrothal or promise to marry as so often misinterpreted), making his secret marriage to Elizabeth Woodville invalid and the children of that marriage illegitimate.

I don't know how much you've read or how much you know about Titulus Regius, but I'll be happy to recommend books and websites if you don't know where to start. I'm sure others will, as well.

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> But since those who knew him or saw him and later wrote hostile accounts,
> Rous among them, don't include such details as chewing his lower lip and
> playing nervously with his dagger,

True or not, I wouldn't call the dagger thing nervous - it sounds like
"stimming" behaviour, which is a sign of Asperger's Syndrome (which often
goes with high intelligence, great honesty, excitability, lack of
deviousness etc).

"Claire M Jordan" wrote:
>
elleynia wrote:
>
> > How do we know he was exceptionally strong?

Claire responded:
> {snip] He's also reported to have lifted an opponent bodily
> out of his saddle and thrown him.

Carol responds:

Not only that, but the opponent he unhorsed, Sir John Cheney, was reputedly a "giant" and very strong. I can't find his weight in a quick search, but acoording to one source, his 21-inch-long thigh bone meant that he stood six foot eight, a full foot taller than Richard without accounting for the scoliosis. Of course, I suspect that adrenaline and vigorous knightly training also came in handy in dealing with Cheney.

Carol

 Peripheral Neuropathy: 

Restless Leg[s] & Insomnia. 

[Might JUST be a feeling you are surrounded by Traitors & ONE Slip on your part means 'Death'!!]

Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 23:01
>Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
>
>
> 
>
>"elleynia" wrote:
>>
>> I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
>>
>> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
>
>Carol responds:
>
>As others have mentioned (and Lin Foxhall, chairman of the University of Leicester pointed out when the skeleton was first excavated), Richard, despite his delicate appearance and apparent scoliosis, was active and strong. The supposed insomnia appears to be a myth (though it would be no surprise if he got only a little sleep on the night before a major battle). The restlessness and fidgeting are not mentioned by any contemporary chronicler and first appear in Vergil, who is building on Rous's account or Richard as a scorpion/Anti-Christ. We're trying here (how successfully, I don't know) to sort fact from fiction and discard any legends with no basis in contemporary sources (and even those are biased, incomplete, and sometimes erroneous). But since those who knew him or saw him and later wrote hostile accounts, Rous among them, don't include such details as chewing his lower lip and playing nervously with his dagger, I would hesitate before accepting
them as factual.
>
>As for his massive overreaction and paranoia, I'm guessing that you're referring to his charge at Bosworth. If you have time, you might want to do a site search and read some of the earlier posts on that topic. We haven't reached any consensus, but you might find some of the views expressed interesting. I suspect that new books on Bosworth will be coming out to bring together the new information about Richard himself and the discovery of a new site for the battlefield.
>
>Sorry to say nothing about hyperthyroid, but medicine is not my field.
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> Not only that, but the opponent he unhorsed, Sir John Cheney, was
> reputedly a "giant" and very strong. I can't find his weight in a quick
> search, but acoording to one source, his 21-inch-long thigh bone meant
> that he stood six foot eight, a full foot taller than Richard without
> accounting for the scoliosis. Of course, I suspect that adrenaline and
> vigorous knightly training also came in handy in dealing with Cheney.

Actually, if it's Cheney you're thinking of him throwing, that's not so
impressive. In any kind of throwing combat, where there is a big disparity
of height like this, the shorter man has a massive advantage. It's to do
with fulcrums and centres of gravity. Richard would only have to catch hold
of Cheney and lean back and Cheney would pivot around his own centre of
gravity and fly over Richard's shoulder.

But he did lift von Poppelau's enormous lance!

And outnumbered at that!

On Feb 22, 2013, at 5:45 PM, "Arthurian" <lancastrian@...<mailto:lancastrian@...>> wrote:



Peripheral Neuropathy:

Restless Leg[s] & Insomnia.

[Might JUST be a feeling you are surrounded by Traitors & ONE Slip on your part means 'Death'!!]

Kind Regards,

Arthur.

>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>>
>To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013, 23:01
>Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
>
>
>
>
>"elleynia" wrote:
>>
>> I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
>>
>> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
>
>Carol responds:
>
>As others have mentioned (and Lin Foxhall, chairman of the University of Leicester pointed out when the skeleton was first excavated), Richard, despite his delicate appearance and apparent scoliosis, was active and strong. The supposed insomnia appears to be a myth (though it would be no surprise if he got only a little sleep on the night before a major battle). The restlessness and fidgeting are not mentioned by any contemporary chronicler and first appear in Vergil, who is building on Rous's account or Richard as a scorpion/Anti-Christ. We're trying here (how successfully, I don't know) to sort fact from fiction and discard any legends with no basis in contemporary sources (and even those are biased, incomplete, and sometimes erroneous). But since those who knew him or saw him and later wrote hostile accounts, Rous among them, don't include such details as chewing his lower lip and playing nervously with his dagger, I would hesitate before accepting
them as factual.
>
>As for his massive overreaction and paranoia, I'm guessing that you're referring to his charge at Bosworth. If you have time, you might want to do a site search and read some of the earlier posts on that topic. We haven't reached any consensus, but you might find some of the views expressed interesting. I suspect that new books on Bosworth will be coming out to bring together the new information about Richard himself and the discovery of a new site for the battlefield.
>
>Sorry to say nothing about hyperthyroid, but medicine is not my field.
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>

"Claire M Jordan" wrote:
>
> True or not, I wouldn't call the dagger thing nervous - it sounds like "stimming" behaviour, which is a sign of Asperger's Syndrome (which often goes with high intelligence, great honesty, excitability, lack of deviousness etc).

Carol responds:

That's not exactly the inference that Vergil intended the reader to draw, as you can see from the context:

"He was lyttle of stature, deformyd of body, thone showlder being

[p.227]higher than thother, a short and sowre cowntenance, which semyd to savor of mischief, and utter evydently craft and deceyt. The whyle he was thinking of any matter, he dyd contynually byte his nether lyppe, as thowgh that crewell nature of his did so rage agaynst yt self in that lyttle carkase. Also he was woont to be ever with his right hand pulling out of the sheath to the myddest, and putting in agane, the dagger which he did alway were. Trewly he hard a sharp witt, provydent and subtyle, apt both to counterfayt and dissemble; his corage also hault and fearce, which faylyd him not in the very death, which, whan his men forsooke him, he rather yealded to take with the swoord, than by fowle flyght to prolong his lyfe, uncertane what death perchance soon after by sicknes or other vyolence to suffer."

It's just another manifestation of "that crewell nature" raging "gaynst yt self in that lyttle carkase." And since no one before Vergil reports eithet the dagger-sheathing or the lip-biting, I think that we can safely discard them both. (They would have fit nicely with Rous's scorpion imagery, but he leaves them out. And yet he, unlike Vergil, had actually seen Richard. And notice that Vergil has Richard's men forsaking him rather than dying with him. Not a credible witness. In fact, not a witness at all.

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> That's not exactly the inference that Vergil intended the reader to draw,
> as you can see from the context:

Sure, but it's such an odd little detail that it sounds like something which
is real and which is being used - rather sillily - against him. I mean, if
you were going to invent something to blacken somebody's character, would
you pick "He fiddles with things and bites his lip"? And he does look, in
the NPG portrait, as if he may well be biting his lip.

He wasn't even that short. 5' 8" was taller than average in the medieval times. Even if he lost 3-4" as per the documentary, he was within "normal" range of that time. He was not weak physically from what we read about him.......

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Feb 22, 2013, at 4:35 PM, "wandasue_101" <wandasusie@...> wrote:

> Hello! (My first post here after lurking a while)
>
> I think it is entirely possible that Richard had a thyroid issue -- the slight build, small stature, the scoliosis. But I can't reconcile the "lack of physical strength" ... he had alays been accounted a very strong warrior, even in his youth.
>
> Wanda from California
>
> --- In , "elleynia" wrote:
> >
> > I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
> >
> > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
> >
>
>

He was one of very few people who could lift the heavy lance of the German guy, Von Something( why the heck can't I remember his name??!).

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Feb 22, 2013, at 4:58 PM, "elleynia" <elleynia@...> wrote:

> How do we know he was exceptionally strong?
>
> --- In , "Claire M Jordan" wrote:
> >
> > From: elleynia
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:24 PM
> > Subject: Hyperthyroid
> >
> >
> > > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the
> > > restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the
> > > descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical
> > > strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked
> > > and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't
> > > suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety
> > > and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with
> > > scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
> >
> > It's not impossible he could have had it mildly I suppose, but he seems to
> > have been exceptionally strong, despite being skinny, and far from being
> > paranoid he seems to have been unduly trusting.
> >
> > The restlessness and fiddling, if it has any significance, could also be a
> > sign of mild Asperger's Syndrome which often goes with very high
> > intelligence, rather obsessive behaviour (the inability to delegate),
> > excitability, social innocence, honesty and lack of deviousness.
> >
>
>

From: Ishita Bandyo
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 2:55 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Hyperthyroid


> He wasn't even that short. 5' 8" was taller than average in the medieval
> times. Even if he lost 3-4" as per the documentary, he was within "normal"
> range of that time.

Actually they said he could have lost as much as a foot, although that seems
extreme. Say 4'11"-5'3", probably. Bearing in mind that Charles I was
about 4'11" and didn't even have scoliosis (so far as we know).

Ellynia, the first press conference when they first Found the skeleton said something to the effect that it was of a "strong and active" male with curvature of spine. Someone else can provide more details for sure.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Feb 22, 2013, at 5:20 PM, "elleynia" <elleynia@...> wrote:

> Really? I would have thought that sort of muscle development would have shown on his skeleton.
>
> --- In , "Claire M Jordan" wrote:
> >
> > From: elleynia
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
> >
> >
> > > How do we know he was exceptionally strong?
> >
> > There was this apparently very short but famously strong Silesian diplomat
> > and soldier called von Poppelau who travelled everywhere with an enormous
> > lance which he challenged all-comers to lift. Hardly anybody could, but
> > iirc Richard could. He's also reported to have lifted an opponent bodily
> > out of his saddle and thrown him.
> >
>
>

He could be but I think that is too extreme an estimation. Dr Appleby(are we still calling her Dr Oops?), said it could be 3-4" to 1'. So by no means that 1' is a sure thing. 3-4 seems to me to be a fair estimation.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Feb 22, 2013, at 10:11 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:

> From: Ishita Bandyo
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 2:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Hyperthyroid
>
> > He wasn't even that short. 5' 8" was taller than average in the medieval
> > times. Even if he lost 3-4" as per the documentary, he was within "normal"
> > range of that time.
>
> Actually they said he could have lost as much as a foot, although that seems
> extreme. Say 4'11"-5'3", probably. Bearing in mind that Charles I was
> about 4'11" and didn't even have scoliosis (so far as we know).
>
>

-Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Ellynia, the first press conference when they first Found the skeleton said something to the effect that it was of a "strong and active" male with curvature of spine. Someone else can provide more details for sure.

Carol responds:

It was Lin Foxhall, head of the archaeology department at Leicester University, who made the comment when the skeleton was first publicly announced on September 12. The comment was reported on many websites and in many articles, always in the same form:

"Professor Lin Foxhall, head of the university's School of Archaeology and Ancient History, agreed that the skeleton is consistent with some contemporary accounts of Richard but ;does not fit the exaggerated picture painted by later, Tudor sources which portrayed him as a wicked hunchback.'

"'The individual we have discovered was plainly strong and active despite his disability, indeed it seems likely that he died in battle,' Foxhall said."

Here's the URL for this particular article, but you can find it all over the Internet just by Googling Lin Foxhall strong active or a similar query.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/king-richard-iii-grave-hunters-find-bones

Since Dr. Foxhall is the head of her department, I think we can take her word on this matter. She's the same person who first made the all-important distinction between scoliosis and kyphosis (hunchback).

Carol

Thanks Carol!!

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Feb 22, 2013, at 10:53 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
>
> -Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >
> > Ellynia, the first press conference when they first Found the skeleton said something to the effect that it was of a "strong and active" male with curvature of spine. Someone else can provide more details for sure.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> It was Lin Foxhall, head of the archaeology department at Leicester University, who made the comment when the skeleton was first publicly announced on September 12. The comment was reported on many websites and in many articles, always in the same form:
>
> "Professor Lin Foxhall, head of the university's School of Archaeology and Ancient History, agreed that the skeleton is consistent with some contemporary accounts of Richard but ;does not fit the exaggerated picture painted by later, Tudor sources which portrayed him as a wicked hunchback.'
>
> "'The individual we have discovered was plainly strong and active despite his disability, indeed it seems likely that he died in battle,' Foxhall said."
>
> Here's the URL for this particular article, but you can find it all over the Internet just by Googling Lin Foxhall strong active or a similar query.
>
> http://bigstory.ap.org/article/king-richard-iii-grave-hunters-find-bones
>
> Since Dr. Foxhall is the head of her department, I think we can take her word on this matter. She's the same person who first made the all-important distinction between scoliosis and kyphosis (hunchback).
>
> Carol
>
>

All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
battle with thin arms and legs, the discovery of his remains proved him
to have been well developed musculature. The restlessness and insomnia
you describe come from More and Shakespeare, and saying he massively
panicked and over reacted is down to interpretation. One could ascribe
the same to Wellington at Waterloo, but of course, he won.
Do not cloak your theories in false robes. Theorise using facts, not
rumours and falsehoods.
Paul

On 22/02/2013 21:24, elleynia wrote:
> I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
>
> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> He could be but I think that is too extreme an estimation. Dr Appleby(are we still calling her Dr Oops?), said it could be 3-4" to 1'. So by no means that 1' is a sure thing. 3-4 seems to me to be a fair estimation.
>


Not to mention that it could have been much less when he was younger. His scoliosis might have been relatively mild to begin with and progressed into a more severe curve over the years.

So he might have stood 5'4" tall when he died, and he might have been even 5'7" as a teenager. No way to know.

From: Paul Trevor Bale
To:
Cc: paul.bale@...
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
battle with thin arms and legs,

Of course he could! His skeleton shows very fine bones, and people who
really live by their miscles, such as hunter-gatherers, tend to be very
lean, not bulky. My dear friend John, the one who looked so like Richard,
had extremely thin arms as the result of a childhood brush with
probably-polio but he was a keen gardener and he had no difficulty heaving
flagstones about. Doesn't von Poppelau call Richard slender?

From: Claire M Jordan
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> Of course he could! His skeleton shows very fine bones, and people who
really live by their miscles, such as hunter-gatherers, tend to be very
lean, not bulky. My dear friend John, the one who looked so like Richard,
had extremely thin arms as the result of a childhood brush with
probably-polio but he was a keen gardener and he had no difficulty heaving
flagstones about. Doesn't von Poppelau call Richard slender?

PS one of the physically-strongest men I know is so thin he looks as if he's
constructed from cheese-straws and a gust of wind could blow him over. But
when he was in his 20s - about 40 years ago - he spent his summers on
archaeological digs in the Hebrides, digging in thick mud, and that altered
the quality of his muscles so that 40 years later they are still like thin
but very strong hawsers. I'm a big lass, but I tripped and stumbled once in
his presence and he just shot out this skinny arm and caught me
effortlessly, and it was like being grabbed by a piece of steel machinery.

[Grinning.] No matter where Dr. Appleby's future career takes her, no matter what illustrious contributions she makes to the field of archeology, no matter what spectacular finds she makes, no matter what honors she accrues, she'll always be "Dr. Oops" to me.

--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> He could be but I think that is too extreme an estimation. Dr Appleby(are we still calling her Dr Oops?), said it could be 3-4" to 1'. So by no means that 1' is a sure thing. 3-4 seems to me to be a fair estimation.
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 22, 2013, at 10:11 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 2:55 AM
> > Subject: Re: Re: Hyperthyroid
> >
> > > He wasn't even that short. 5' 8" was taller than average in the medieval
> > > times. Even if he lost 3-4" as per the documentary, he was within "normal"
> > > range of that time.
> >
> > Actually they said he could have lost as much as a foot, although that seems
> > extreme. Say 4'11"-5'3", probably. Bearing in mind that Charles I was
> > about 4'11" and didn't even have scoliosis (so far as we know).
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

I looked this up briefly. We are talking about hyperthryroidism, or a type of it. I knew somebody with this once and I can't see Richard as a candidate. Firstly, it is rare in males. Secondly, Richard's bones were slender, it wasn't jut a case of not laying down fat. The portraits indicate that he didn't have googly eyes; there is no record of his having had goitre.
There is no evidence of generalised insomnia. Vergil's description of his nervous habits is very suspect; in fact, one of the first things I thought when seeing that jaw with the almost underbite is, well it would have made it unlikely that he would have gone around chewing his lower lip. Mostly Richard didn't panic but thought things through very well. We don't need a medical condition to account for panicking on two occasions in the face of a perceived and present threat to life.
But that's just my opinion.
Marie


--- In , "elleynia" <elleynia@...> wrote:
>
> I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
>
> Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
>

OK, just a personal idea......
We have found Richard's remains. We know he had scoliosis. It is probably impossible, without some pretty hard and reliable data, that he had any other type of problem. This was a man who had lost every member of his family, including his wife and son. He was in the middle of a swarm of wasps plotting to overthrow him, and fighting for his life, as well as his patrimony. Jesus, I would be a little stern looking, with any of those things, much less all of them.

On Feb 23, 2013, at 4:05 AM, "pansydobersby" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:



--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> He could be but I think that is too extreme an estimation. Dr Appleby(are we still calling her Dr Oops?), said it could be 3-4" to 1'. So by no means that 1' is a sure thing. 3-4 seems to me to be a fair estimation.
>

Not to mention that it could have been much less when he was younger. His scoliosis might have been relatively mild to begin with and progressed into a more severe curve over the years.

So he might have stood 5'4" tall when he died, and he might have been even 5'7" as a teenager. No way to know.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: elleynia
> To:
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
>
>
> > How do we know he was exceptionally strong?
>
> There was this apparently very short but famously strong Silesian diplomat
> and soldier called von Poppelau who travelled everywhere with an enormous
> lance which he challenged all-comers to lift. Hardly anybody could, but
> iirc Richard could.


Can you possibly give me the quote? I don't recall this in Von Poppelau's account.
Marie

From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> Vergil's description of his nervous habits is very suspect; in fact, one
> of the first things I thought when seeing that jaw with the almost
> underbite is, well it would have made it unlikely that he would have gone
> around chewing his lower lip.

Good point. Possibly he bit his cheeks, and that was where the story came
from - he must have had a lot of toothache, judging from how many cheek
teeth he's lost.

> Mostly Richard didn't panic but thought things through very well. We don't
> need a medical condition to account for panicking on two occasions in the
> face of a perceived and present threat to life.

Yes - he was under a great deal of stress and genuinely under threat, and
the British stiff upper lip hadn't been invented yet, so there's nothing
unexpected about him blowing up occasionally. Henry II - one of our
greatest kings - used to have outright hysterics and literally chew the rug.

From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> Can you possibly give me the quote? I don't recall this in Von Poppelau's
> account.
Marie

Damn, I can't find it. I could be mistaken about Richard lifting the
lance - I did say "iirc"! - but I know I read some biographical details
about von Poppelau - who was quite a well-known German character - which
talked about his being famously strong and carrying this enormous lance
around and challenging everyone to lift it. But this was about 30 years
ago.

I haven't remembered it perfectly because I thought he said Richard was a
head taller than himself and I see it was only three fingers, which given
Richard's slender bones is probably less than 3". It still makes von
Poppelau probably very short but perhaps not quite a dwarf.

The text, whatever it was, is definitely out there somewhere, because when I
tried to find it on the net I came across a novel about Richard (Treason, by
Meredith Whitford) which described von Poppelau and his enormous lance, and
that isn't where I got it from because it's a novel which was only published
in 2004 and which I'm therefore absolutely sure I've never read (whereas if
it had been around in the 1970s I might have read it and then forgotten it).
It's not in PMK, is it?

Btw, to wield weapons Richard wouldn't need to be all that strong in the
weight-lifting sense. It's endurance that does it. A good-quality,
well-balanced sword or axe - and his would presumably be of the finest
quality - is easy to handle. As a reasonably strong middle-aged woman I can
easily wield a well-balanced hand-and-a-half broadsword (what they call a
"bastard" sword) but if I was swinging it about my arms would get too tired
and sore after a few minutes, whereas a soldier of Richard's type would have
the practised endurance to keep going for a long time without his muscles
seizing up. Like being a marathon runner instead of a sprinter.

Yes, Von Poppelau does say Richard has delicate arms and legs, but he was evidently strong. There is no contradiction. Muscles can be long and lean, or bulky. Useful for different things - in running the bulky-muscled type make good sprinters and the lean-muscled type good long-distance runners.
Any now, someone tell me Bradley Wiggins isn't strong.
Marie

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: Paul Trevor Bale
> To:
> Cc: paul.bale@...
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 9:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
>
>
> > All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
> sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
> battle with thin arms and legs,
>
> Of course he could! His skeleton shows very fine bones, and people who
> really live by their miscles, such as hunter-gatherers, tend to be very
> lean, not bulky. My dear friend John, the one who looked so like Richard,
> had extremely thin arms as the result of a childhood brush with
> probably-polio but he was a keen gardener and he had no difficulty heaving
> flagstones about. Doesn't von Poppelau call Richard slender?
>

From: Claire M Jordan
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> Damn, I can't find it. I could be mistaken about Richard lifting the
lance - I did say "iirc"! - but I know I read some biographical details
about von Poppelau - who was quite a well-known German character - which
talked about his being famously strong and carrying this enormous lance
around and challenging everyone to lift it. But this was about 30 years
ago.

Still don't know whether the source was Kendall or not - anybody? My copy
of Kendall, which I've had since I was about 14, was faulty - about 60 pages
were missing and 60 others were duplicated. I filled in the missing pages
with photocopies from a library copy, but I find some of them have gone
missing - including two indexed references to von Poppelau.

But I've remembered the context. It was a debate about Richard's
appearance - somebody argued that because Richard was three fingers taller
than von Poppelau, and von Poppelau was famously strong and had an enormous
lance, von Poppelau must have been a big man and Richard must have been
tall.

From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> Any now, someone tell me Bradley Wiggins isn't strong.

Hands up who else noticed Bradley's creepy resemblance to Henry Tudor -
especially when he lounged in that golden throne, smirking.

Probably not Kendall. I've checked the pages for von Poppelau in the index
& don't find much except the story about Richard expressing a desire to
fight the Turks. Also according to Kendall, von Poppelu visited Richard at
Middleham in April 1484.

A J

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...
> wrote:

> **
>
>
> From: Claire M Jordan
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 4:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
>
> > Damn, I can't find it. I could be mistaken about Richard lifting the
> lance - I did say "iirc"! - but I know I read some biographical details
> about von Poppelau - who was quite a well-known German character - which
> talked about his being famously strong and carrying this enormous lance
> around and challenging everyone to lift it. But this was about 30 years
> ago.
>
> Still don't know whether the source was Kendall or not - anybody? My copy
> of Kendall, which I've had since I was about 14, was faulty - about 60
> pages
> were missing and 60 others were duplicated. I filled in the missing pages
> with photocopies from a library copy, but I find some of them have gone
> missing - including two indexed references to von Poppelau.
>
> But I've remembered the context. It was a debate about Richard's
> appearance - somebody argued that because Richard was three fingers taller
> than von Poppelau, and von Poppelau was famously strong and had an
> enormous
> lance, von Poppelau must have been a big man and Richard must have been
> tall.
>
>
>

Let's not forget that someone said very early on when the remains were first found that were the remains of a strong man. Does Richard's known prowess in battle not mean anything...? Eileen

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
> sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
> battle with thin arms and legs, the discovery of his remains proved him
> to have been well developed musculature. The restlessness and insomnia
> you describe come from More and Shakespeare, and saying he massively
> panicked and over reacted is down to interpretation. One could ascribe
> the same to Wellington at Waterloo, but of course, he won.
> Do not cloak your theories in false robes. Theorise using facts, not
> rumours and falsehoods.
> Paul
>
> On 22/02/2013 21:24, elleynia wrote:
> > I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
> >
> > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

Claire wrote:
> Still don't know whether the source was Kendall or not - anybody? [snip]

Carol responds:

It's not from Kendall. You can read his account of von Poppelau's visit on Google Books here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gDmSOAFMeeUC&pg=PA388&dq=Paul+Murray+Kendall+Richard+III+von+Poppelau&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LiopUdvuFIKWiQKa6IDgCg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Paul%20Murray%20Kendall%20Richard%20III%20von%20Poppelau&f=false

And, in case that doesn't link, here's a Tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/bl2pcd7

Carol, trying not to add too greatly to the post count so that Marie will stay on the list!

...and every time Dr. Appleby starts excavating bones or so much as lays eyes on a mattock, she'll think of Richard and likely be more careful. And thus is the king's justice done.

~Weds


--- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...> wrote:
>
> [Grinning.] No matter where Dr. Appleby's future career takes her, no matter what illustrious contributions she makes to the field of archeology, no matter what spectacular finds she makes, no matter what honors she accrues, she'll always be "Dr. Oops" to me.

You got quite a guffaw out of that one. Thank you for the belly laugh!

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> ...and every time Dr. Appleby starts excavating bones or so much as lays eyes on a mattock, she'll think of Richard and likely be more careful. And thus is the king's justice done.
>
> ~Weds
>
>
> --- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@> wrote:
> >
> > [Grinning.] No matter where Dr. Appleby's future career takes her, no matter what illustrious contributions she makes to the field of archeology, no matter what spectacular finds she makes, no matter what honors she accrues, she'll always be "Dr. Oops" to me.
>

Did it prove that? I don't recall them saying that in the documentary but must admit I didn't memorise it.

The thing is, the 'hunchback' was a gross exaggeration of a truth - his scoliosis. The best lies are based on truth. I totally take your point that anything has to be taken in context and the bias of the observer but that doesn't necessarily mean it had no basis in truth.

It is unquestionably the case that Richard's greatest crime was losing at Bosworth

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
> sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
> battle with thin arms and legs, the discovery of his remains proved him
> to have been well developed musculature. The restlessness and insomnia
> you describe come from More and Shakespeare, and saying he massively
> panicked and over reacted is down to interpretation. One could ascribe
> the same to Wellington at Waterloo, but of course, he won.
> Do not cloak your theories in false robes. Theorise using facts, not
> rumours and falsehoods.
> Paul
>
> On 22/02/2013 21:24, elleynia wrote:
> > I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
> >
> > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

It's a good question. A response that was made elsewhere was essentially "what known prowess?" and went on to say that he'd actually only fought in a couple of a battles and a skirmish or two (please note that these are not my views). It was also debated how much he did actually fight and how much he commanded. Certainly all accounts seem to agree that he fought well at Bosworth.

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Let's not forget that someone said very early on when the remains were first found that were the remains of a strong man. Does Richard's known prowess in battle not mean anything...? Eileen
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@> wrote:
> >
> > All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
> > sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
> > battle with thin arms and legs, the discovery of his remains proved him
> > to have been well developed musculature. The restlessness and insomnia
> > you describe come from More and Shakespeare, and saying he massively
> > panicked and over reacted is down to interpretation. One could ascribe
> > the same to Wellington at Waterloo, but of course, he won.
> > Do not cloak your theories in false robes. Theorise using facts, not
> > rumours and falsehoods.
> > Paul
> >
> > On 22/02/2013 21:24, elleynia wrote:
> > > I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
> > >
> > > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>

I'm interested that most of the responses focus on Richard's physical strength where there are many other aspects to Graves that do seem to fit.

I can't claim to be an kind of expert on muscle development but I would assume mediaeval weapons to be heavy and the sort of muscle development from wielding them to be similar to those from lifting weights - bulk rather than lean.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, Von Poppelau does say Richard has delicate arms and legs, but he was evidently strong. There is no contradiction. Muscles can be long and lean, or bulky. Useful for different things - in running the bulky-muscled type make good sprinters and the lean-muscled type good long-distance runners.
> Any now, someone tell me Bradley Wiggins isn't strong.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: Paul Trevor Bale
> > To:
> > Cc: paul.bale@
> > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 9:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
> >
> >
> > > All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
> > sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
> > battle with thin arms and legs,
> >
> > Of course he could! His skeleton shows very fine bones, and people who
> > really live by their miscles, such as hunter-gatherers, tend to be very
> > lean, not bulky. My dear friend John, the one who looked so like Richard,
> > had extremely thin arms as the result of a childhood brush with
> > probably-polio but he was a keen gardener and he had no difficulty heaving
> > flagstones about. Doesn't von Poppelau call Richard slender?
> >
>

a crime to loose a battle???!

On 24 February 2013 07:39, elleynia <elleynia@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Did it prove that? I don't recall them saying that in the documentary but
> must admit I didn't memorise it.
>
> The thing is, the 'hunchback' was a gross exaggeration of a truth - his
> scoliosis. The best lies are based on truth. I totally take your point that
> anything has to be taken in context and the bias of the observer but that
> doesn't necessarily mean it had no basis in truth.
>
> It is unquestionably the case that Richard's greatest crime was losing at
> Bosworth
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
> > sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
> > battle with thin arms and legs, the discovery of his remains proved him
> > to have been well developed musculature. The restlessness and insomnia
> > you describe come from More and Shakespeare, and saying he massively
> > panicked and over reacted is down to interpretation. One could ascribe
> > the same to Wellington at Waterloo, but of course, he won.
> > Do not cloak your theories in false robes. Theorise using facts, not
> > rumours and falsehoods.
> > Paul
> >
> > On 22/02/2013 21:24, elleynia wrote:
> > > I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden
> post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
> > >
> > > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the
> restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions
> of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and
> I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and
> over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer
> from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and
> worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with
> scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>
>
>



--
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From: elleynia
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid


> I can't claim to be an kind of expert on muscle development but I would
> assume mediaeval weapons to be heavy and the sort of muscle development
> from wielding them to be similar to those from lifting weights - bulk
> rather than lean.

No, not very - a sword probably weighs about as much as a bag of shopping.
And a king's weapons would be very well-balanced. I, as a fairly strong
middle-aged woman, can easily wield a well-balanced hand-and-a-half
broadsword (several of my friends are re-enacters, so I move in circles
where people do have broadswords!). Any moderately strong, fit man could
wield a full-sized two-handed broadsword.

Where the need for strengh comes in is in being able to go *on* wielding the
thing without your arms almost immediately siezing up with cramp. But, as
somebody pointed out, Bradley Wiggins has to make those sort of forced
repetitive movements and keep on doing so for hours at a time, and he's lean
rather than bulky.

Also, of course, you'd need strength to actual hit armoured knights with a
weapon and do any damage, but that depends to a considerable extent on how
sharp the weapon is and Richard's would of course be in tip-top condition.

> It's a good question. A response that was made elsewhere was essentially
> "what known prowess?" and went on to say that he'd actually only fought in
> a couple of a battles and a skirmish or two (please note that these are
> not my views).

We certainly have evidence that he was a very skilled commander and fit
enough to go gadding about all over the borders on horseback, but I don't
know how strong the evidence is for his actual weapon-use. He seems to have
thrown Cheney with a wrestling hold.

Hi all   THis my first post here and - like a lot of people - I've been having problems following all the threads because the way Yahoo structures them...! So please bear with me if I'm re-posting anything already said!....:-) 
Michael Jones's essay "Richard as soldier" in Gillingham's "Richard III: A medieval Kingship" is interesting on this topic. He suggests that Richard was far more soldier than commander or general - his main experience being in border skirmishes and a battle or two. This speaks to physical prowess and bravery but not necessarily great strategic experience. 
Though I am not sure how this fits with the topic of the thread...
Janet


--- On Sun, 24/2/13, elleynia <elleynia@...> wrote:

From: elleynia <elleynia@...>
Subject: Re: Hyperthyroid
To:
Date: Sunday, 24 February, 2013, 11:44
















 









It's a good question. A response that was made elsewhere was essentially "what known prowess?" and went on to say that he'd actually only fought in a couple of a battles and a skirmish or two (please note that these are not my views). It was also debated how much he did actually fight and how much he commanded. Certainly all accounts seem to agree that he fought well at Bosworth.



--- In , "EileenB" wrote:

>

> Let's not forget that someone said very early on when the remains were first found that were the remains of a strong man. Does Richard's known prowess in battle not mean anything...? Eileen

>

> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:

> >

> > All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile

> > sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on

> > battle with thin arms and legs, the discovery of his remains proved him

> > to have been well developed musculature. The restlessness and insomnia

> > you describe come from More and Shakespeare, and saying he massively

> > panicked and over reacted is down to interpretation. One could ascribe

> > the same to Wellington at Waterloo, but of course, he won.

> > Do not cloak your theories in false robes. Theorise using facts, not

> > rumours and falsehoods.

> > Paul

> >

> > On 22/02/2013 21:24, elleynia wrote:

> > > I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.

> > >

> > > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > > Yahoo! Groups Links

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Richard Liveth Yet!

> >

>

The question "How much he did actually fight and how much he commanded" shows a woeful misunderstanding of what commanding meant back then - at least until Henry VII came along.
Marie

--- In , "elleynia" <elleynia@...> wrote:
>
> It's a good question. A response that was made elsewhere was essentially "what known prowess?" and went on to say that he'd actually only fought in a couple of a battles and a skirmish or two (please note that these are not my views). It was also debated how much he did actually fight and how much he commanded. Certainly all accounts seem to agree that he fought well at Bosworth.
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > Let's not forget that someone said very early on when the remains were first found that were the remains of a strong man. Does Richard's known prowess in battle not mean anything...? Eileen
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > >
> > > All the symptons you describe are ascribed to Richard by hostile
> > > sources. They are not based on reality. He could not have functioned on
> > > battle with thin arms and legs, the discovery of his remains proved him
> > > to have been well developed musculature. The restlessness and insomnia
> > > you describe come from More and Shakespeare, and saying he massively
> > > panicked and over reacted is down to interpretation. One could ascribe
> > > the same to Wellington at Waterloo, but of course, he won.
> > > Do not cloak your theories in false robes. Theorise using facts, not
> > > rumours and falsehoods.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 22/02/2013 21:24, elleynia wrote:
> > > > I've posted this elsewhere but thought it worth making my 'maiden post' on here. Apologies to those who are on both sites.
> > > >
> > > > Is this a really silly idea? I read the descriptions of Richard, the restlessness, the energy, the insomnia, the 'leanness' and the descriptions of the thin arms and legs (and possibly the lack of physical strength) and I also read about a man who (I believe) massively panicked and over-reacted. I wonder, I really, really wonder if Richard didn't suffer from Graves' disease. Untreated it can lead to feelings of anxiety and worse, paranoia. There also seems to be a strong association with scoliosis. Or is this completely ridiculous?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>