paganism again

The idea that persons of rank in Richard's day might have been involved in mysterious pagan or pseudo-pagan cults just got an unexpected boost. This:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-21577807

dates from about a hundred years after Richard's death, but there's no evidence that this whatever-it-was was a new idea at that point. It could well have had roots which extended back into Richard's time, or before.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> The idea that persons of rank in Richard's day might have been involved in mysterious pagan or pseudo-pagan cults just got an unexpected boost. This:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-21577807
>
> dates from about a hundred years after Richard's death, but there's no evidence that this whatever-it-was was a new idea at that point. It could well have had roots which extended back into Richard's time, or before.
>
>
>
>
>

Mention of historic "enigmatic symbols". Well, there is a documented class of such symbols which probably date back into Richard's era. There is an example here though they are from a slightly later age.

Kew Palace:

http://www.hrp.org.uk/Images/witches%20marks%20Kew%202.jpg

http://www.hrp.org.uk/Resources/Witchmarks.pdf

From: Phaeton G
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: paganism again


> Mention of historic "enigmatic symbols". Well, there is a documented class
> of such symbols which probably date back into Richard's era. There is an
> example here though they are from a slightly later age.

Hmm. Well, those are intended to protect the building, which doesn't seem
likely with the room at Canoms Ashby, unless it's some kind of occult
bunker.

I should explain this, for those who don't want to follow the link, or who
are searching for this thread later in the Serch box. A 16th C house called
Canons Ashby, near Daventry, ahd just been found to contain a hidden room,
orughly a 6ft cube, with its entrance concealed in a cupboard. This is
unlikely to be a priest-hole because the family are and were Protestants.

The walls are plastered and decorated with odd, raised symbols, and with
even odder Latin texts saying things like "'Do not eat of those things with
a black tail." It has been suggested that it might be some early Masoning
Lodge - but it would be difficult to get more than about six people inside
it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-21577807

That would not be surprising at all. I think these "secret" places exist in many places, to keep the "old ways" sacred, without actively going against existing Church Doctrine. Somewhere, I have a lovely old book, I think called "Winter", and a Green Man is on the front, and about 1/3 of the book covers Norse, Celtic, and early British lore. I will find it, and get the exact title and author. I get it out during Christmas, as I am rather a Pagan myself!!!


From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Claire M Jordan
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 5:30 AM
To:
Subject: paganism again



The idea that persons of rank in Richard's day might have been involved in mysterious pagan or pseudo-pagan cults just got an unexpected boost. This:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-21577807

dates from about a hundred years after Richard's death, but there's no evidence that this whatever-it-was was a new idea at that point. It could well have had roots which extended back into Richard's time, or before.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: Phaeton G
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:05 PM
> Subject: Re: paganism again
>
>
> > Mention of historic "enigmatic symbols". Well, there is a documented class
> > of such symbols which probably date back into Richard's era. There is an
> > example here though they are from a slightly later age.

Kew Palace - built in 1631.

http://www.hrp.org.uk/Images/witches%20marks%20Kew%202.jpg

http://www.hrp.org.uk/Resources/Witchmarks.pdf


>
> Hmm. Well, those are intended to protect the building, which doesn't seem
> likely with the room at Canoms Ashby, unless it's some kind of occult
> bunker.
>
> I should explain this, for those who don't want to follow the link, or who
> are searching for this thread later in the Serch box [edit]
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-21577807
>


Many thanks. Freemasonry as we know it today - as the article states - dates back to the early 18th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Freemasonry

Thus, this hidden room may well be or not be an early or proto Freemasonry 'lodge' or meeting place, dating to the reign of Elizabeth I.

Yes, the marks at Kew ward off evil and are referred to as `apotropaic'. However these apotropaic marks have a longer history. Typically they include scribed circles or circular designs. They can be accompanied by letters, again typically `M' perhaps for Mary, `V' for The Virgin and so forth. The inspiration for these marks is undoubtedly to be found in the Bible, but there might also be a pagan leitmotiv.

Here's an example from Hampshire - see image "Tan-Y-Bryn-1360-061", it is dated to the fourteenth century, 1360, so together with the Kew marks they span entirely Richard's short life and were presumably being scribed in his very day.

http://www.medievalarchitecture.net/images/HampshireBuildings/Tan-Y-Bryn/index.htm

Ric

From: Phaeton G
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: paganism again


> Thus, this hidden room may well be or not be an early or proto Freemasonry
> 'lodge' or meeting place, dating to the reign of Elizabeth I.

A friend who is a modern-day ritual magician has pointed out that this room
is contemporary with Dr John Dee and his Angelic Alphabet, so we know for a
fact that there were people at the time working out organised systems of
arcane symbols. One puzzling feature here is the arms of various local
families, in a room which is too small to have hosted anything in the way of
a substantial meeting. Maybe they are the arms of families to whom the
owner was related, or which had members who were part of the same group, or
whom the owner wished to influence.

> Here's an example from Hampshire - see image "Tan-Y-Bryn-1360-061", it is
> dated to the fourteenth century, 1360,

How sure are they of the age of the carving, as opposed to the house? I'm
not 100% convinced that that's not the work of some schoolboy playing around
with a pair of compasses in about 1750.

> so together with the Kew marks they span entirely Richard's short life and
> were presumably being scribed in his very day.

I'm sure John Dee didn't spring up sui generis - there must have been
similar if less public magicians in Richard's day.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: Phaeton G
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 1:08 AM
> Subject: Re: paganism again
>
>
> > Thus, this hidden room may well be or not be an early or proto Freemasonry
> > 'lodge' or meeting place, dating to the reign of Elizabeth I.
>
> A friend who is a modern-day ritual magician has pointed out that this room
> is contemporary with Dr John Dee and his Angelic Alphabet...
>
> > Here's an example from Hampshire - see image "Tan-Y-Bryn-1360-061", it is
> > dated to the fourteenth century, 1360,
>
> How sure are they of the age of the carving, as opposed to the house? I'm
> not 100% convinced that that's not the work of some schoolboy playing around
> with a pair of compasses in about 1750.
>
> > so together with the Kew marks they span entirely Richard's short life and
> > were presumably being scribed in his very day.
>
> I'm sure John Dee didn't spring up sui generis - there must have been
> similar if less public magicians in Richard's day.
>

The scribed timbers in Hampshire and at Kew have been dated by professional dendrologists, the marks themselves have been identified by specialists in this field.

http://www.apotropaios.co.uk/ritual_marks.htm

Medieval magic largely stemmed from the Church since this body possessed well stocked libraries containing magical works in Latin. Magic and alchemy were seen as almost respectable pursuits up until the time of Elizabeth I, hence people like John Dee moving in the highest of social circles.

But what you see here is a snapshot of high society, you don't see what the average person saw or thought about. It seems reasonable to suppose that long held beliefs amongst the populace continued to be held, thus the continuance of rites surrounding holy wells and so forth and despite the Reformation. The common people were probably partaking of Enochian systems which filtered down to them from people like Dee - medieval clergy also - but their congregations were also perhaps following a form of folk Christianity which subtly incorporated older beliefs or ideas.

In this way, we cannot easily decipher the marks left to posterity because there was no-one to document them at the time, which is a shame. It means an entire chapter in social history for the period is absent. These marks continued to be scribed into the mid to late nineteenth century so whatever belief underlay their scribing persisted over a great length of time.

Ric