Watching a scene of torture.
Watching a scene of torture.
2013-02-27 23:51:36
Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago – I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
"Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
Jan.
This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago – I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
"Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
Jan.
Re: Watching a scene of torture.
2013-02-28 01:30:21
From: janmulrenan@...
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:51 PM
Subject: Watching a scene of torture.
> It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took
> place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned.
Ah, right, good, thanks - so if any king was present it was presumably the
King of Scots, which would have been Jamie Three if this was during
Richard's reign.
> There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas
> Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you
> why.
Ah, yes, I see. I doubt it was even a Scottish baron with Yorkist
sympathies - there can't have been many of those, since Edward had got up
everybody's noses. Scotland was riven with factions and Wyatt had probably
ended up supporting the wrong one on Henry's behalf. A cold and narrow
tower can't be *the* Tower - it sounds like it was probably a peel.
> "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling
> people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7,
> should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think
> he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
I'll look out for it.
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:51 PM
Subject: Watching a scene of torture.
> It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took
> place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned.
Ah, right, good, thanks - so if any king was present it was presumably the
King of Scots, which would have been Jamie Three if this was during
Richard's reign.
> There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas
> Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you
> why.
Ah, yes, I see. I doubt it was even a Scottish baron with Yorkist
sympathies - there can't have been many of those, since Edward had got up
everybody's noses. Scotland was riven with factions and Wyatt had probably
ended up supporting the wrong one on Henry's behalf. A cold and narrow
tower can't be *the* Tower - it sounds like it was probably a peel.
> "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling
> people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7,
> should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think
> he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
I'll look out for it.
Re: Watching a scene of torture.
2013-02-28 09:30:23
From: janmulrenan@...
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:51 PM
Subject: Watching a scene of torture.
> "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling
> people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7,
> should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think
> he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
Jan.
I knew there was something else I wanted to say about this, and I've
remembered what it was.
If Henry really was that oppressive, it probably came of having been raised
at or near the French court. Somebody said yesterday that it was possible
Richard was guilty as accused and was therefore "the worst if villains", but
even if he had been guilty of everything Shakespeare and More accused him
of, he wouldn't have been within touching distance of some of the French
monarchs even with a very long stick. The streak of madness in that family
led to some very extreme behaviour - even Eward I would have needed a fairly
long stick to keep in touch, and he was possibly our most bloody and
monstrous royal product.
With the usual provisos about whether the sources are accurate or not there
was one French king, well before Richard's time but not back into the Dark
Ages either, maybe 13th or 14th C, who was a licensed serial killer. He
supposedly like to stroll in an orchard which was decorated with the dead or
dying - in many cases rotting and falling to bits - bodies of his
torture-victims. And who was the one who supposedly served up his wife's
murdered lover at table on a big covered dish? I've a vague idea the wife
in question was the Catherine de Valois who was later Henry VI's mother, so
we're only talking maybe 40 or 50 years before Richard. And then there was
Vlad the Impaler, the Borgias, Ivan the Terrible - the Middle Ages and
Rennaissance were littered with leaders beside whom even the most
Shakesperean Richard would only be a petty crook.
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:51 PM
Subject: Watching a scene of torture.
> "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling
> people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7,
> should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think
> he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
Jan.
I knew there was something else I wanted to say about this, and I've
remembered what it was.
If Henry really was that oppressive, it probably came of having been raised
at or near the French court. Somebody said yesterday that it was possible
Richard was guilty as accused and was therefore "the worst if villains", but
even if he had been guilty of everything Shakespeare and More accused him
of, he wouldn't have been within touching distance of some of the French
monarchs even with a very long stick. The streak of madness in that family
led to some very extreme behaviour - even Eward I would have needed a fairly
long stick to keep in touch, and he was possibly our most bloody and
monstrous royal product.
With the usual provisos about whether the sources are accurate or not there
was one French king, well before Richard's time but not back into the Dark
Ages either, maybe 13th or 14th C, who was a licensed serial killer. He
supposedly like to stroll in an orchard which was decorated with the dead or
dying - in many cases rotting and falling to bits - bodies of his
torture-victims. And who was the one who supposedly served up his wife's
murdered lover at table on a big covered dish? I've a vague idea the wife
in question was the Catherine de Valois who was later Henry VI's mother, so
we're only talking maybe 40 or 50 years before Richard. And then there was
Vlad the Impaler, the Borgias, Ivan the Terrible - the Middle Ages and
Rennaissance were littered with leaders beside whom even the most
Shakesperean Richard would only be a petty crook.
Re: Watching a scene of torture.
2013-02-28 09:59:37
I was flicking through it in the bookshop the other day as someone at work recommended it. In the preface/introduction it said that at Bosworth Henry's standard bearer had his legs cut from under him! Such a basic error put me off. It might have been a slip not corrected in the many proof readings but it was enough to make me decide I wouldn't pay for it. I'll see if I can get it at the ibrary instead.
Liz
From: "janmulrenan@..." <janmulrenan@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2013, 23:51
Subject: Watching a scene of torture.
Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
"Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
Jan.
Liz
From: "janmulrenan@..." <janmulrenan@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2013, 23:51
Subject: Watching a scene of torture.
Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
"Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
Jan.
Re: Watching a scene of torture.
2013-02-28 10:22:26
I think that Annette Carson has written an article refuting all these charges against Richard. As usual her writings are based on evidence that she has researched.
--- In , "janmulrenan@..." <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
>
> Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
>
> This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago – I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
>
> I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
>
> "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
> Jan.
>
--- In , "janmulrenan@..." <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
>
> Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
>
> This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago – I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
>
> I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
>
> "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
> Jan.
>
Re: Watching a scene of torture.
2013-02-28 16:36:21
liz williams wrote:
>
> I was flicking through it in the bookshop the other day as someone at work recommended it. In the preface/introduction it said that at Bosworth Henry's standard bearer had his legs cut from under him! Such a basic error put me off.   It might have been a slip not corrected in the many proof readings but it was enough to make me decide I wouldn't pay for it. I'll see if I can get it at the ibrary instead.
> Â
> Liz
Carol responds:
The thing is, proofreaders generally catch only typos in the typeset pages and copyeditors (like me) catch mechanical errors and sentence structure errors in the manuscript before it goes to press. They are not specialists in the field of the book they're editing, nor are they fact checkers. If a scholarly book is published by an academic press, it is almost always peer reviewed by scholars in the same field (just as the articles published by the Leicester team will be peer-reviewed before publication in the scholarly journal "Antiquities") and the peer reviewers would certainly catch such an error, which the author would then correct. But if this book ("The Winter King"?) came from a nonacademic press, it probably was not peer-reviewed and may not even have been checked for facts by a professional fact checker.
But, please, let's not blame the poor proofreaders. If they so much as suggest a correction that isn't the fault of the typesetter, they have to initial it, and if they make too many such corrections, or those changes amount to more than a change in spelling or the insertion of a missing word or punctuation mark, they can be fired. Correcting errors while the pages are in proof (typeset) costs money. Substantive changes can be made only when the book is in manuscript.
Now if I, as copyeditor of a book like that one, encountered that particular error, I would query it (call it to the author's attention so that he could correct it). But very few copyeditors have a knowledge of fifteenth-century history, and I can easily see how it would have escaped attention. A fact-checker, if there was one, would have no such excuse.
Carol
>
> I was flicking through it in the bookshop the other day as someone at work recommended it. In the preface/introduction it said that at Bosworth Henry's standard bearer had his legs cut from under him! Such a basic error put me off.   It might have been a slip not corrected in the many proof readings but it was enough to make me decide I wouldn't pay for it. I'll see if I can get it at the ibrary instead.
> Â
> Liz
Carol responds:
The thing is, proofreaders generally catch only typos in the typeset pages and copyeditors (like me) catch mechanical errors and sentence structure errors in the manuscript before it goes to press. They are not specialists in the field of the book they're editing, nor are they fact checkers. If a scholarly book is published by an academic press, it is almost always peer reviewed by scholars in the same field (just as the articles published by the Leicester team will be peer-reviewed before publication in the scholarly journal "Antiquities") and the peer reviewers would certainly catch such an error, which the author would then correct. But if this book ("The Winter King"?) came from a nonacademic press, it probably was not peer-reviewed and may not even have been checked for facts by a professional fact checker.
But, please, let's not blame the poor proofreaders. If they so much as suggest a correction that isn't the fault of the typesetter, they have to initial it, and if they make too many such corrections, or those changes amount to more than a change in spelling or the insertion of a missing word or punctuation mark, they can be fired. Correcting errors while the pages are in proof (typeset) costs money. Substantive changes can be made only when the book is in manuscript.
Now if I, as copyeditor of a book like that one, encountered that particular error, I would query it (call it to the author's attention so that he could correct it). But very few copyeditors have a knowledge of fifteenth-century history, and I can easily see how it would have escaped attention. A fact-checker, if there was one, would have no such excuse.
Carol
Re: Watching a scene of torture.
2013-02-28 16:45:22
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Watching a scene of torture.
> Correcting errors while the pages are in proof (typeset) costs money.
> Substantive changes can be made only when the book is in manuscript.
The book which I mentioned as an authority on pre-Christian British
religion - A Brief History of the Druids by Peter Berresford Ellis - was
reprinted in about 2004 with about 20 pages missing out of the middle. I
drew this to the publisher's attention (it was one of the books I used to
stock when I had my wee Celtic/Occult shop) but so far as I know they never
did anything about it - not even to print up the extra pages as an insert.
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Watching a scene of torture.
> Correcting errors while the pages are in proof (typeset) costs money.
> Substantive changes can be made only when the book is in manuscript.
The book which I mentioned as an authority on pre-Christian British
religion - A Brief History of the Druids by Peter Berresford Ellis - was
reprinted in about 2004 with about 20 pages missing out of the middle. I
drew this to the publisher's attention (it was one of the books I used to
stock when I had my wee Celtic/Occult shop) but so far as I know they never
did anything about it - not even to print up the extra pages as an insert.
Re: Watching a scene of torture.
2013-02-28 18:37:16
Hello forum members,
I had a closer look at the footnotes to Henry Wyatt in Wikipedia.
Annette Carson is cited for "The Questionable Legacy of Henry Wyatt"' Ricardian Register,(Richard III Society Inc.). Vol. 42 No. 3,Sept 2011. So is Rhoda Edwards for "The Itinerary of Richard III 1483-1485" (Richard III Society, 1983,1995.
So both writers get credited.
Jan.
--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> I think that Annette Carson has written an article refuting all these charges against Richard. As usual her writings are based on evidence that she has researched.
>
> --- In , "janmulrenan@" <janmulrenan@> wrote:
> >
> > Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
> >
> > This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago – I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
> >
> > I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
> >
> > "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
> > Jan.
> >
>
I had a closer look at the footnotes to Henry Wyatt in Wikipedia.
Annette Carson is cited for "The Questionable Legacy of Henry Wyatt"' Ricardian Register,(Richard III Society Inc.). Vol. 42 No. 3,Sept 2011. So is Rhoda Edwards for "The Itinerary of Richard III 1483-1485" (Richard III Society, 1983,1995.
So both writers get credited.
Jan.
--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> I think that Annette Carson has written an article refuting all these charges against Richard. As usual her writings are based on evidence that she has researched.
>
> --- In , "janmulrenan@" <janmulrenan@> wrote:
> >
> > Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
> >
> > This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago – I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
> >
> > I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
> >
> > "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
> > Jan.
> >
>
Re: Watching a scene of torture.
2013-03-04 03:18:52
Not bad for a Camberwell education :p
--- In , "janmulrenan@..." <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello forum members,
> I had a closer look at the footnotes to Henry Wyatt in Wikipedia.
> Annette Carson is cited for "The Questionable Legacy of Henry Wyatt"' Ricardian Register,(Richard III Society Inc.). Vol. 42 No. 3,Sept 2011. So is Rhoda Edwards for "The Itinerary of Richard III 1483-1485" (Richard III Society, 1983,1995.
> So both writers get credited.
> Jan.
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > I think that Annette Carson has written an article refuting all these charges against Richard. As usual her writings are based on evidence that she has researched.
> >
> > --- In , "janmulrenan@" <janmulrenan@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
> > >
> > > This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago – I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
> > >
> > > I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
> > >
> > > "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
> > > Jan.
> > >
> >
>
--- In , "janmulrenan@..." <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello forum members,
> I had a closer look at the footnotes to Henry Wyatt in Wikipedia.
> Annette Carson is cited for "The Questionable Legacy of Henry Wyatt"' Ricardian Register,(Richard III Society Inc.). Vol. 42 No. 3,Sept 2011. So is Rhoda Edwards for "The Itinerary of Richard III 1483-1485" (Richard III Society, 1983,1995.
> So both writers get credited.
> Jan.
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > I think that Annette Carson has written an article refuting all these charges against Richard. As usual her writings are based on evidence that she has researched.
> >
> > --- In , "janmulrenan@" <janmulrenan@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Earlier today, I think today, somebody mentioned reading that R3 had been present while another person was tortured. I may be able to help here. I came across a reference to R3 watching Henry Wyatt being racked on p. 228 of "Winter King" by Thomas Penn. That was a new one on me; I thought I'd heard all the accusations made against R3.
> > >
> > > This topic was discussed on the forum several years ago – I did a quick search. There is also quite a long article on Henry Wyatt on Wikipedia which looks well researched to me. It refutes the allegation that R3 was present because Henry's ordeal took place in Scotland & R3 never returned to Scotland once he was crowned. There is a portrait of Henry W which iirc is in the Louvre. Sir Thomas Wyatt, Henry's son, accused R3 of being present & Wikipedia will tell you why.
> > >
> > > I am sorry to see this accusation made in a book that was History Book of the Year in 2011/2, winning a lot of praise. I wonder what other errors were made that I cannot spot, being a non-specialist. If R3 hadn't cropped up I would have just read on. I know Wikipedia is considered suspect but the article quotes sources & on a brief hunt through the chapter notes on sources in Penn I can't pin down his sources for Sir Thomas's tale.
> > >
> > > "Winter King" paints a horrible picture of H7's method of controlling people he or his officials wished to manage. We don't need to attack H7, should we feel so inclined, as Penn does it for us. In fact you may think he overdoes the oppressive atmosphere.
> > > Jan.
> > >
> >
>
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