Yet another post about scoliosis

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
 
I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today.  Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?

Hello Liz, This is an excellent post and information on scoliosis, everyone one this forum should read it. This young girl had scoliosis worse than Richard's by the look of it.
thanks for posting it.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
>  
> I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today.  Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?
>
>
>

From: christineholmes651@...
To:
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis


> Hello Liz, This is an excellent post and information on scoliosis,
> everyone one this forum should read it. This young girl had scoliosis
> worse than Richard's by the look of it.
thanks for posting it.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie

If you go on Google Images and jsut search for scoliosis there are some
interesting images. I was looking on there yesterday to see how much
evidence the Leicester team have that it was Richard's right shoulder which
was higher - given that the only near-contemporary image of him which shows
a marked difference, the SoA portrait, has his left shoulder higher. I'm
inclined to trust the SoA one because there's no sign that anybody has
artificially raised his shoulder to try to make him look hunchbacked - his
left shoulder is shown as very level and straight and well-formed, as if the
artist thought of him as having a beautiful little bod, and then the right
shoulder is depressed.

Also his right clavicle was longer than the left and I would have thought
that the longer clavicle would be on the down side. Also in the grave his
shoulders seem to be either even or with the left slightly higher.

Anyway, Google Images shows that in most cases where there is a clear
difference between the shoulders the high side is on the convex side of the
spine, which makes mechanical sense and explains why the team thought his
right shoulder should be higher. But there are also a minority of cases
where the high shoulder is on the concave side of the curve - and there are
many, many cases where there seems to be no difference in shoulder-height at
all, even when the curve is very marked.

The especially interesting thing in this report is the 'Onset' timing. The girl in the report was a teenager.
 
The Cambridge Don [Sorry his name escapes me] given a view of Richard's remains in the recent T.V. documentary, stated an onset at age - circa '10 years old' [Though Shakespeare stated in Richard it was from BIRTH. I think that thanks to Philippa Langley & others we DO have to accept he DID have a marked spinal abnormality, whatever it's pathology.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2013, 22:21
>Subject: Yet another post about scoliosis
>
>
> 
>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
> 
>I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today.  Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Arthurian
To:
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis


> I think that thanks to Philippa Langley & others we DO have to accept he
> DID have a marked spinal abnormality, whatever it's pathology.

And coped with what must have been embarrasment (given the attitude to
disability at the time) and probably pain with admirable fortitude. A
friend of mine who has scoliosis suffers from periodic bouts of his back
going into spasm, and it could well be that on those few occasions when
Richard seems to have acted wildly he did so because he was in a lot of
pain.

That could well also be the cause of his rather strained expression in the
NPG portrait, although it occurs to me that when we were arguing about his
eyesight an important point was lost. I thought he looked as if he needed
specs because he has that rather squinched-up look about the eyes, but
people who need specs and who squinch their eyes up like that do so because
squinching their eyes up actually helps. So *if* he needed glasses it
wouldn't mean that he couldn't see, only that in order to see, he had to
squinch his eyes up.

But, as I say, it could equally well be the expression of somebody who is
wincing a bit because he has a sore back or a headache.

Oh no particular importance, but when I was first diagnosed with hip problems, I had a long discussion with my surgeon about length and difference in limbs. He said that is would be very uncommon to fine exact matches on any of the bones - right and left on anyone, and quite often, physicians find anatomical differences which vary widely from the "norm" and yet those people usually function normally, and some exceptionally. This is, of course, in modern times when physicians have x-ray, CT Scans, and MRI's in their arsenals.

On Mar 1, 2013, at 5:22 AM, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...<mailto:whitehound@...>> wrote:



From: christineholmes651@...<mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com>
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis

> Hello Liz, This is an excellent post and information on scoliosis,
> everyone one this forum should read it. This young girl had scoliosis
> worse than Richard's by the look of it.
thanks for posting it.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie

If you go on Google Images and jsut search for scoliosis there are some
interesting images. I was looking on there yesterday to see how much
evidence the Leicester team have that it was Richard's right shoulder which
was higher - given that the only near-contemporary image of him which shows
a marked difference, the SoA portrait, has his left shoulder higher. I'm
inclined to trust the SoA one because there's no sign that anybody has
artificially raised his shoulder to try to make him look hunchbacked - his
left shoulder is shown as very level and straight and well-formed, as if the
artist thought of him as having a beautiful little bod, and then the right
shoulder is depressed.

Also his right clavicle was longer than the left and I would have thought
that the longer clavicle would be on the down side. Also in the grave his
shoulders seem to be either even or with the left slightly higher.

Anyway, Google Images shows that in most cases where there is a clear
difference between the shoulders the high side is on the convex side of the
spine, which makes mechanical sense and explains why the team thought his
right shoulder should be higher. But there are also a minority of cases
where the high shoulder is on the concave side of the curve - and there are
many, many cases where there seems to be no difference in shoulder-height at
all, even when the curve is very marked.

It is entirely possible to have scoliosis and not have uneven shoulders. It depends upon the shape of the curve-- take a look at this image: http://www.rad.washington.edu/staticpix/mskbook/CurveTypes.gif

Scoliosis can take different shapes. No two people have precisely the same curve or body shape, so deformities can manifest in various ways and degrees; furthermore, sometimes they don't manifest at all. I think that in the case of an S shaped curve, which the girl in the article had, the two curves that form the S shape counteract each other and perhaps balance the shoulders.

As someone with a similar curve to Richard's, I can say that his shoulders were definitely uneven. Like me, he had a C shaped curved, and from the look of his skeleton, it was about as severe as mine. I think C shaped curves are more likely to show a physical deformity, as one side of the body is forced downward due to the curvature, and the other side of the body (I mean shoulders in particular, in this case) stays pretty normal looking.

Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look kind of cranky, it's been a long day.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8519034687_18c51e417f_z.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8110/8520155034_fdba069ed8.jpg

So yeah, it's not a *shocking* difference in height, but notable, I'd say.


--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
>  
> I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today.  Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?
>
>
>

Except that we have only one known portrait of Richard that was produced during his lifetime--Rous's not terribly detailed cartoon--and the earliest oil portrait of which we are aware dates from not one possible moment earlier than 1520, nearly half a century after the king's death. The earlier oil portraits were altered after their initial completion to exaggerate and add details from the Tudor legends--hunchback, withered arm, narrowed eyes, compressed lips. It's just simply not possible to make any reasonable assertions that the portraits show realistic details about Richard III--they're way too late and way too tinkered with to be a reliable record.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: Arthurian
> To:
> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 12:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis
>
>
> > I think that thanks to Philippa Langley & others we DO have to accept he
> > DID have a marked spinal abnormality, whatever it's pathology.
>
> And coped with what must have been embarrasment (given the attitude to
> disability at the time) and probably pain with admirable fortitude. A
> friend of mine who has scoliosis suffers from periodic bouts of his back
> going into spasm, and it could well be that on those few occasions when
> Richard seems to have acted wildly he did so because he was in a lot of
> pain.
>
> That could well also be the cause of his rather strained expression in the
> NPG portrait, although it occurs to me that when we were arguing about his
> eyesight an important point was lost. I thought he looked as if he needed
> specs because he has that rather squinched-up look about the eyes, but
> people who need specs and who squinch their eyes up like that do so because
> squinching their eyes up actually helps. So *if* he needed glasses it
> wouldn't mean that he couldn't see, only that in order to see, he had to
> squinch his eyes up.
>
> But, as I say, it could equally well be the expression of somebody who is
> wincing a bit because he has a sore back or a headache.
>

You don't look cranky at all, you look lovely!  And yes, I can see the difference but that's because you've told me.  If I was just looking at that photo and not knowing, I wouldn't notice it.  That's really interesting because if yours is a similar degree to his, it just shows that it wouldn't have been general knowledge at all. 
 
Thank you so much for showing us the photos.
 
NOW for the big question - how difficult would you find it to lift Von Poppelau's lance, ride a horse, fight a battle and damn near kill Tudor?  :-)
 
 
 
Liz
 

________________________________
From: of_1749 <of1749@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 1 March 2013, 23:51
Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis

 


It is entirely possible to have scoliosis and not have uneven shoulders. It depends upon the shape of the curve-- take a look at this image: http://www.rad.washington.edu/staticpix/mskbook/CurveTypes.gif

Scoliosis can take different shapes. No two people have precisely the same curve or body shape, so deformities can manifest in various ways and degrees; furthermore, sometimes they don't manifest at all. I think that in the case of an S shaped curve, which the girl in the article had, the two curves that form the S shape counteract each other and perhaps balance the shoulders.

As someone with a similar curve to Richard's, I can say that his shoulders were definitely uneven. Like me, he had a C shaped curved, and from the look of his skeleton, it was about as severe as mine. I think C shaped curves are more likely to show a physical deformity, as one side of the body is forced downward due to the curvature, and the other side of the body (I mean shoulders in particular, in this case) stays pretty normal looking.

Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look kind of cranky, it's been a long day.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8519034687_18c51e417f_z.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8110/8520155034_fdba069ed8.jpg

So yeah, it's not a *shocking* difference in height, but notable, I'd say.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams wrote:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
>  
> I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today.  Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?
>
>
>

Yeah, you look great! No evidence of crankiness! But, you know, if you were riding to exterminate that irritating little snot Tudor who wanted your crown, a bit of crankiness wouldn't be out of place, would it?

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> You don't look cranky at all, you look lovely!  And yes, I can see the difference but that's because you've told me.  If I was just looking at that photo and not knowing, I wouldn't notice it.  That's really interesting because if yours is a similar degree to his, it just shows that it wouldn't have been general knowledge at all. 
>  
> Thank you so much for showing us the photos.
>  
> NOW for the big question - how difficult would you find it to lift Von Poppelau's lance, ride a horse, fight a battle and damn near kill Tudor?  :-)
>  
>  
>  
> Liz
>  
>
> ________________________________
> From: of_1749 <of1749@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 1 March 2013, 23:51
> Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis
>
>  
>
>
> It is entirely possible to have scoliosis and not have uneven shoulders. It depends upon the shape of the curve-- take a look at this image: http://www.rad.washington.edu/staticpix/mskbook/CurveTypes.gif
>
> Scoliosis can take different shapes. No two people have precisely the same curve or body shape, so deformities can manifest in various ways and degrees; furthermore, sometimes they don't manifest at all. I think that in the case of an S shaped curve, which the girl in the article had, the two curves that form the S shape counteract each other and perhaps balance the shoulders.
>
> As someone with a similar curve to Richard's, I can say that his shoulders were definitely uneven. Like me, he had a C shaped curved, and from the look of his skeleton, it was about as severe as mine. I think C shaped curves are more likely to show a physical deformity, as one side of the body is forced downward due to the curvature, and the other side of the body (I mean shoulders in particular, in this case) stays pretty normal looking.
>
> Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look kind of cranky, it's been a long day.
>
> http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8519034687_18c51e417f_z.jpg
> http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8110/8520155034_fdba069ed8.jpg
>
> So yeah, it's not a *shocking* difference in height, but notable, I'd say.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams wrote:
> >
> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
> >  
> > I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today.  Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: of_1749
To:
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis


> Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in
> shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look
> kind of cranky, it's been a long day.

You look beautiful and charming, not cranky at all. But if the team who
laid out his bones did it correctly then Richard's curve is rather an odd
one, because it doesn't go all the way to top or bottom. The first three or
four lumbar vertebrae are straight and so are the top two thoracic
vertebrae, and the way his ribs are arranged in the grave it looks as though
they're depressed downwards on the right, with a large area of ribcage low
down - as if his body fitted itself around the curve by moving his right
side down under the curve rather than tilting up above it.

Or the SoA portrait could be mirror-image reversed from the lost original
which it's presumed to be a copy of, of course. But it *is* the only
near-contemporary image which shows a marked disparity in his shoulders, and
one with no suggestion of the fictional hunch, and it shows him with his
left shoulder level and perfectly made and his right side depressed
downwards.

--- In , "of_1749" <of1749@...> wrote:
>
>
> Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look kind of cranky, it's been a long day.
>

'Cranky'? No. 'Regal' is the word.

Seriously, you look like a mediaeval princess (and I'm not joking or being hyperbolical here).

It seems to me likely that either the way the body was laid in the grave [Witness the raised Head/Skull?] resulted in more twisting than was evident in life. [As the body decayed.] or the fact that effective treatment for the condition meant it was more rapidly progressive than a modern case. Certainly the 'Late onset at age about ten seems in line with the skeletal evidence.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
>To:
>Sent: Saturday, 2 March 2013, 10:56
>Subject: Re: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis
>
>
> 
>From: of_1749
>To:
>Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 11:51 PM
>Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis
>
>> Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in
>> shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look
>> kind of cranky, it's been a long day.
>
>You look beautiful and charming, not cranky at all. But if the team who
>laid out his bones did it correctly then Richard's curve is rather an odd
>one, because it doesn't go all the way to top or bottom. The first three or
>four lumbar vertebrae are straight and so are the top two thoracic
>vertebrae, and the way his ribs are arranged in the grave it looks as though
>they're depressed downwards on the right, with a large area of ribcage low
>down - as if his body fitted itself around the curve by moving his right
>side down under the curve rather than tilting up above it.
>
>Or the SoA portrait could be mirror-image reversed from the lost original
>which it's presumed to be a copy of, of course. But it *is* the only
>near-contemporary image which shows a marked disparity in his shoulders, and
>one with no suggestion of the fictional hunch, and it shows him with his
>left shoulder level and perfectly made and his right side depressed
>downwards.
>
>
>
>
>

You are one of those fortunate people whose face would look lovely in any period of history..past or present.

Noone gets to see my face when I am cranky as I usually go to bed and pull the duvet up as far as it will go.....Eileen

> --- In , "of_1749" <of1749@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look kind of cranky, it's been a long day.
> >
>
> 'Cranky'? No. 'Regal' is the word.
>
> Seriously, you look like a mediaeval princess (and I'm not joking or being hyperbolical here).
>

From: pansydobersby
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis

> 'Cranky'? No. 'Regal' is the word.

> Seriously, you look like a mediaeval princess (and I'm not joking or being
> hyperbolical here).

Yes! Going by the outfit, an early-Mediaeval, that is Norman or late
Anglo-Saxon, princess, listening to harpers in a smoky hall.

--- In , Arthurian <lancastrian@...> wrote:
>
> It seems to me likely that either the way the body was laid in the grave [Witness the raised Head/Skull?] resulted in more twisting than was evident in life. [As the body decayed.]
>


Can't remember if I asked this before here (I did mean to), but how would the bones change shape post-mortem? They might be broken, yes, and definitely dislodged, and *found* in a distorted position, but the bones themselves certainly wouldn't bend... would they?

I think the shape of the ribcage in itself speaks of rather severe curvature, even if you ignore the curve in the spine...

That is exactly right. The degree of scoliosis in the remains today is totally inconsistent with Richard's reported height (von Poppelau), his active lifestyle and his private life.

----- Original Message -----
From: Arthurian
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis



It seems to me likely that either the way the body was laid in the grave [Witness the raised Head/Skull?] resulted in more twisting than was evident in life. [As the body decayed.] or the fact that effective treatment for the condition meant it was more rapidly progressive than a modern case. Certainly the 'Late onset at age about ten seems in line with the skeletal evidence.

Kind Regards,

Arthur.

>________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan whitehound@...>
>To:
>Sent: Saturday, 2 March 2013, 10:56
>Subject: Re: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis
>
>
>
>From: of_1749
>To:
>Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 11:51 PM
>Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis
>
>> Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in
>> shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look
>> kind of cranky, it's been a long day.
>
>You look beautiful and charming, not cranky at all. But if the team who
>laid out his bones did it correctly then Richard's curve is rather an odd
>one, because it doesn't go all the way to top or bottom. The first three or
>four lumbar vertebrae are straight and so are the top two thoracic
>vertebrae, and the way his ribs are arranged in the grave it looks as though
>they're depressed downwards on the right, with a large area of ribcage low
>down - as if his body fitted itself around the curve by moving his right
>side down under the curve rather than tilting up above it.
>
>Or the SoA portrait could be mirror-image reversed from the lost original
>which it's presumed to be a copy of, of course. But it *is* the only
>near-contemporary image which shows a marked disparity in his shoulders, and
>one with no suggestion of the fictional hunch, and it shows him with his
>left shoulder level and perfectly made and his right side depressed
>downwards.
>
>
>
>
>

From: Stephen Lark
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Yet another post about
scoliosis


> That is exactly right. The degree of scoliosis in the remains today is
> totally inconsistent with Richard's reported height (von Poppelau),

All that von Poppelau says is that Richard is three fingers (about 2½")
taller than himself - we have no idea how tall von Poppelau was, only that
he was strong. The business with the enormous lance suggests he was
probably very short, and felt the need to over-compensate.

> his active lifestyle and his private life.

Scoliosis wouldn't prevent him from being active and quite athletic - not so
long as he had access to regular massage, at any rate. My friend who has
lateral scoliosis used to go in for fell-running, until the strain bollixed
his knee-caps (he's over 6ft tall, even with the scoliosis, and has the sort
of physique which makes you think of words like "hulking", so there's a lot
of strain on his kees).

The archeology team was most definite about this point: they said that the body absolutely, positively, beyond question did not shift after burial, period. 'Course, the person who made that statement was the same one who had creamed the king's cranium with a cleaver, so let us just add by way of remark that her credibility might be open to challenge.

(The missus adds, "Did they account for any spinning in the grave after the premiere of Shakespeare's 'Richard III'?")

--- In , pansydobersby <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , Arthurian <lancastrian@> wrote:
> >
> > It seems to me likely that either the way the body was laid in the grave [Witness the raised Head/Skull?] resulted in more twisting than was evident in life. [As the body decayed.]
> >
>
>
> Can't remember if I asked this before here (I did mean to), but how would the bones change shape post-mortem? They might be broken, yes, and definitely dislodged, and *found* in a distorted position, but the bones themselves certainly wouldn't bend... would they?
>
> I think the shape of the ribcage in itself speaks of rather severe curvature, even if you ignore the curve in the spine...
>

Cranky......you look like a princess!

On Mar 1, 2013, at 5:51 PM, "of_1749" <of1749@...<mailto:of1749@...>> wrote:




It is entirely possible to have scoliosis and not have uneven shoulders. It depends upon the shape of the curve-- take a look at this image: http://www.rad.washington.edu/staticpix/mskbook/CurveTypes.gif

Scoliosis can take different shapes. No two people have precisely the same curve or body shape, so deformities can manifest in various ways and degrees; furthermore, sometimes they don't manifest at all. I think that in the case of an S shaped curve, which the girl in the article had, the two curves that form the S shape counteract each other and perhaps balance the shoulders.

As someone with a similar curve to Richard's, I can say that his shoulders were definitely uneven. Like me, he had a C shaped curved, and from the look of his skeleton, it was about as severe as mine. I think C shaped curves are more likely to show a physical deformity, as one side of the body is forced downward due to the curvature, and the other side of the body (I mean shoulders in particular, in this case) stays pretty normal looking.

Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look kind of cranky, it's been a long day.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8519034687_18c51e417f_z.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8110/8520155034_fdba069ed8.jpg

So yeah, it's not a *shocking* difference in height, but notable, I'd say.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, liz williams wrote:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
>
> I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today. Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?
>
>
>

And is that your Richard III pendant I can see you wearing?  (saw it on tumblr!) - I'm very jealous of it.  

Thanks for posting the pictures, and for the insight.  


________________________________
From: of_1749 <of1749@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis


 


It is entirely possible to have scoliosis and not have uneven shoulders. It depends upon the shape of the curve-- take a look at this image: http://www.rad.washington.edu/staticpix/mskbook/CurveTypes.gif

Scoliosis can take different shapes. No two people have precisely the same curve or body shape, so deformities can manifest in various ways and degrees; furthermore, sometimes they don't manifest at all. I think that in the case of an S shaped curve, which the girl in the article had, the two curves that form the S shape counteract each other and perhaps balance the shoulders.

As someone with a similar curve to Richard's, I can say that his shoulders were definitely uneven. Like me, he had a C shaped curved, and from the look of his skeleton, it was about as severe as mine. I think C shaped curves are more likely to show a physical deformity, as one side of the body is forced downward due to the curvature, and the other side of the body (I mean shoulders in particular, in this case) stays pretty normal looking.

Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look kind of cranky, it's been a long day.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8519034687_18c51e417f_z.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8110/8520155034_fdba069ed8.jpg

So yeah, it's not a *shocking* difference in height, but notable, I'd say.

--- In , liz williams wrote:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
>  
> I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today.  Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?
>
>
>

Haha, yes it is. What's your username on tumblr? If I'm not following you, I definitely will :)

Thank you everyone for the compliments-- I hope my input was useful or at least of interest in some way!

--- In , Ilke Hatter <foreverfoxcat@...> wrote:
>
> And is that your Richard III pendant I can see you wearing?  (saw it on tumblr!) - I'm very jealous of it.  
>
> Thanks for posting the pictures, and for the insight.  
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: of_1749 <of1749@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 11:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis
>
>
>  
>
>
> It is entirely possible to have scoliosis and not have uneven shoulders. It depends upon the shape of the curve-- take a look at this image: http://www.rad.washington.edu/staticpix/mskbook/CurveTypes.gif
>
> Scoliosis can take different shapes. No two people have precisely the same curve or body shape, so deformities can manifest in various ways and degrees; furthermore, sometimes they don't manifest at all. I think that in the case of an S shaped curve, which the girl in the article had, the two curves that form the S shape counteract each other and perhaps balance the shoulders.
>
> As someone with a similar curve to Richard's, I can say that his shoulders were definitely uneven. Like me, he had a C shaped curved, and from the look of his skeleton, it was about as severe as mine. I think C shaped curves are more likely to show a physical deformity, as one side of the body is forced downward due to the curvature, and the other side of the body (I mean shoulders in particular, in this case) stays pretty normal looking.
>
> Here are two photos that I think will help illustrate the difference in shoulder height in people with C shaped scoliosis curves. Sorry I look kind of cranky, it's been a long day.
>
> http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8519034687_18c51e417f_z.jpg
> http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8110/8520155034_fdba069ed8.jpg
>
> So yeah, it's not a *shocking* difference in height, but notable, I'd say.
>
> --- In , liz williams wrote:
> >
> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285833/Scoliosis-Schoolgirl-worst-spinal-curvature-doctors-seen-splits-11-hour-operation.html#comments
> >  
> > I know we have had a million posts about it, but I saw this in the paper today.  Considering how bad the curvature is, her shoulders in the "before" picture don't look that uneven do they?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

That's exactly what I thought too.



________________________________
From: pansydobersby <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 2 March 2013, 13:06
Subject: Re: Yet another post about scoliosis

  >



Seriously, you look like a mediaeval princess (and I'm not joking or being hyperbolical here).

--- In , "of_1749" <of1749@...> wrote:
>
> Haha, yes it is. What's your username on tumblr? If I'm not following you, I definitely will :)
>
> Thank you everyone for the compliments-- I hope my input was useful or at least of interest in some way!
>


I'm sorry: in vain I have struggled. It will not do. My curiosity will be repressed no longer. What is this Richard pendant whereof you speak?!

Oh, it's a necklace with his portrait on it. My boyfriend got it for me for Valentine's Day. It's from etsy, but there doesn't seem to be any more of them, unfortunately!

--- In , pansydobersby <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "of_1749" <of1749@> wrote:
> >
> > Haha, yes it is. What's your username on tumblr? If I'm not following you, I definitely will :)
> >
> > Thank you everyone for the compliments-- I hope my input was useful or at least of interest in some way!
> >
>
>
> I'm sorry: in vain I have struggled. It will not do. My curiosity will be repressed no longer. What is this Richard pendant whereof you speak?!
>