Richard as page [was Richard in Fiction?]

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: Richard in Fiction?


> I'm not even sure what to call the thread at this point, but it has
> certainly strayed from "Richard in fiction"!

I'm going with "Richard as page", because it seems to me that the questions
are these:

Is the hand-written list of the duties of a page really by Richard? We need
a photograph, but Pamela Tudor-Craig at any rate says it's very like his
hand. It's in the same set of manuscripts as the Ipomedon but several
people over the centuries have written in the margins of those documents, so
that doesn't in itself prove it's Richard who wrote that list: it does
depend on the handwriting.

Assuming that it's his list, then we know he did serve as a page-boy. What
age would he have been? Would/could he have been a page from age 13-16?

If the answer is no, he would have to have been a page when he was pre-teen,
then was he Warwick's page, and if not, whose? If he wasn't at Middleham in
1461/62, where was he?

Also, on what basis does Pamela Tudor-Craig say that Richard was at
Middleham from the ages of 9-12? It's not a straight lift from Kendall
because Kendall has him moving to London in February 1463, when he was ten,
after spending less than 18 months at Middleham. So does P C-T have an
independent reason to think he was at Middleham, and if so, what is it?

Also, in the itinerary we find:

13/11/1461 - Richard, George, Warwick and Montague appointed to call out the
levies of Yorkshire, Westmoreland, Northumberland and Cumberland for defence
against the Lancastrians and the Scots. (C.P.R.1461-67 p.66)

I do not know who or what CPR is in this context, but assuming it's correct,
where (and who!) was Montague at this point? If Montague was in the north -
i.e. this commission was being given to people who were actually on-site -
then doesn't that imply that the two young brothers were also in the north
at that time? Would something as specific and local as a commission to call
out levies in the north of England be given as a purely ceremonial
appointment to a child living in London?

And, of course, if they *were* in the north, then "with cousin Warwick"
seems the most likely location, especially if they were being given a
commission to do some work with him. But it would mean that George and
Richard were together. Do we know where George was between November 1461
and February 1463 (after which even Kendall says Richard was in London)?

"Claire M Jordan" wrote:
[snip]
>
> I do not know who or what CPR is in this context, but assuming it's correct, where (and who!) was Montague at this point? [snip]

Carol responds:

I'd love to stay with you on this thread, but it's just too time consuming and I don't have access to original sources, even online, since I'm in the U.S. But "PR" in "CPR" almost certainly stands for "Public Records," and Montague (Montagu) is John Neville, the earl of Warwick's younger brother, who was Edward IV's loyal servant for a long time but finally joined his brothers in rebellion against their royal cousin. In 1464, Edward had taken the title Earl of Northumberland away from Henry Percy and given it to John Neville as a reward for his services, but in 1470, to pacify the North, he took that title away and gave it back to Henry Percy, trying to compensate cousin John by making him Marquess of Montagu. John complained about having been given only "a [mag]pie's nest to maintain it {the title] with. For that and other reasons, Montagu joined the rebellion against Edward. It was his troops who caused Edward, Richard, and a few hundred retainers to flee to Burgundy in 1470, the very day, IIRC, that Richard turned eighteen.

Sorry I can't help you with the Richard as page part at this point. You can probably write to or e-mail Pamela Tudor-Craig. I could have sworn that I saw her photo on the website of some university though, of course, she would no longer actually be teaching. Maybe you could get in touch with her through the Society of Antiquaries?

BTW, I found her R III catalogue here if anyone wants to buy it:

http://www.biblio.com/pamela-tudor-craig/richard-iii-catalogue~48168195~title

On a complete side note, does anyone know anything about "Richard III of England: Unabridged Guide" by Beverly Margaret? Is it useful and informative or just more traditionalist pseudo-biography?

? http://www.kobobooks.com/ebook/Richard-III-England-Unabridged-Guide/book-oJVvZsw3ukKK3jK_MD7eQQ/page1.html

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 5:16 PM
Subject: Montagu(e) (Was: Richard as page)


> I'd love to stay with you on this thread, but it's just too time consuming
> and I don't have access to original sources,

's OK.

> Montague (Montagu) is John Neville, the earl of Warwick's younger brother,

OK, so somebody who probably was on-site in the north, then. Sounds like
raising levies was a real job and Richard and George probably *were* in the
north from November 1461 to Feb 1463, then, as Kendall says, but quite
possibly Richard was John Neville's page rather than Warwick's. Hafta find
out where John Neville was living.

[I really shouldn't have started this - I have enough trouble sorting out my
*own* bloody family. I still don't know how many husbands my grandmother
had.]

> Maybe you could get in touch with her through the Society of Antiquaries?

Could do, ta. She's on the documetary so she's still active.

I'll have to try to locate the website I got the itinerary from - that
should tell me what CPR is.

CPR in Rhoda Edwards *The Itinerary of Richard III 1483-1485* stands for
Calendar of Patent Rolls 1476-85, (1954). Have lost the beginning of this
thread so don't know if this is what you were asking about...

A J

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Claire M Jordan
<whitehound@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 5:16 PM
> Subject: Montagu(e) (Was: Richard as page)
>
> > I'd love to stay with you on this thread, but it's just too time
> consuming
> > and I don't have access to original sources,
>
> 's OK.
>
> > Montague (Montagu) is John Neville, the earl of Warwick's younger
> brother,
>
> OK, so somebody who probably was on-site in the north, then. Sounds like
> raising levies was a real job and Richard and George probably *were* in
> the
> north from November 1461 to Feb 1463, then, as Kendall says, but quite
> possibly Richard was John Neville's page rather than Warwick's. Hafta find
> out where John Neville was living.
>
> [I really shouldn't have started this - I have enough trouble sorting out
> my
> *own* bloody family. I still don't know how many husbands my grandmother
> had.]
>
> > Maybe you could get in touch with her through the Society of Antiquaries?
>
> Could do, ta. She's on the documetary so she's still active.
>
> I'll have to try to locate the website I got the itinerary from - that
> should tell me what CPR is.
>
>
>

From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: Montagu(e) (Was: Richard as page)


> CPR in Rhoda Edwards *The Itinerary of Richard III 1483-1485* stands for
> Calendar of Patent Rolls 1476-85, (1954). Have lost the beginning of this
> thread so don't know if this is what you were asking about...

OK ta. A reliable and contemporary source, then. I have an itinerary for
Richard, complete from his birth to the start of 1485, which I got off the
net and now I can't find where I got it or who wrote it, and so I don't know
what all the little cryptic notes mean. CPR is one of them.

The point of the thread is this:

Paul Murray Kendall has Richard at Middleham from November 1461 to February
1463, and thereafter in London. Pamela Tudor-Craig has him at Middleham
from 1461 to 1464 or 1465. This is distinct from his later stay there for
three years in his teens.

We do not know where Pamela Tudor-Craig got her information, but Kendall's
seems to be an error based on a misreading of when it was that Warwick began
to be paid money for Richard's upkeep. The modern consensus therefore is
that Richard spent 1461-1463 in London, although there's no specific
information to place him there.

According to the itinerary, however, CPR says that in November 1461 Richard
and George, along with Warwick and his brother John Neville (later Montague)
were "appointed to call out the levies of Yorkshire, Westmoreland,
Northumberland and Cumberland for defence against the Lancastrians and the
Scots". That sounds like a job which was more than ceremonial and which
would require them to be actually on the spot, so we're back with Richard
(and George) in the north of England during that period, although possibly
with John Neville rather than Warwick.

In addition, we know that Richard was probably a page round about this time
(there's a list of the duties of a page written in what seems to be his
hand) so where he was bears on whose page he was.

Wasn't "calling out the levies" a matter of writing letters rather than appearing anywhere?

So if Richard was helping the two Warwicks do this, where were the levies sent from? That is, if the levies went out from Middleham, would it mean Richard was there?

It would be nice if the list of page duties scribbled in the mss. margin would include something like, "While pouring out the wine for Middleham's knights, do not spill it on them."

~Weds

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:

> According to the itinerary, however, CPR says that in November 1461 Richard
> and George, along with Warwick and his brother John Neville (later Montague)
> were "appointed to call out the levies of Yorkshire, Westmoreland,
> Northumberland and Cumberland for defence against the Lancastrians and the
> Scots". That sounds like a job which was more than ceremonial and which
> would require them to be actually on the spot, so we're back with Richard
> (and George) in the north of England during that period, although possibly
> with John Neville rather than Warwick.
>
> In addition, we know that Richard was probably a page round about this time
> (there's a list of the duties of a page written in what seems to be his
> hand) so where he was bears on whose page he was.
>