Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013

Hello All List of those speaking at the conference.
1, Phil Stone-Welcome.

2 Chris Skidmore Intro and keynote address quite good.

3 Phillipa and Annette Carson-Looking for Richard Project,
interesting and funny ( Later I had a chat with Phillipa and I got a cuddle from Annette, I told her we all miss her on the forum, she has been very busy )

4 John Ashdown-Hill The Four Strands of Evidence very very interesting, did you know John and Phillipa paid for the DNA tests.
5 Two people from university talking about Richard in drama and history.

6 Prof Mark Lansdale Psychological Profile of Richard III, much better than I thought it might be, Richard was not a raving psychopath etc.


7 Caroline Wilkinson The "Face of Richard III " excellent.

8 Dr Toby Capwell Richard's Last Battle, very interesting re the armour Richard may have worn and how it would be fitted to hem considering his disability, more to come from him on this one when more test come to the for, but it was fascinating. He did say that Richard's armour maker would have had a very intimate knowledge of Richard's body.
Dr Capwell travels the world competing in jousts. he knows his stuff.

9 Bob Woosnam-Savage Violent Death of a King. Also very interesting, their thoughts on the helmet so far is that due to a particular face wound Richard was attacked from behind and his helmet strap cut through, then he would be very vunerable more to come on this when they have more info.

10 The Mayor of Leicester- Well what can I say, I don't think I will but I have to say he could not get away fast enough, he would only answer one question.

11 Round up and thanks from Chairman.

The facial reconstruction is much better seen in the flesh so to speak, photo's do not do it justice. I took some myself, mind you I had to tell Dr Phil Stone to shift himself, in a nice way of course.

Thats all for now.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie..

PS If you have any questions I will try to answer them if I can.

   I thank you for your Information.

   I watched the Re-Hash of the T.V. Programme of the Exhumation, Can you, as someone who appears at the 'Centre' Do you think, Apart from the 'Mattock Mishap' that this was done as carefully as possible?

  It appeared to me that the legs [Not the Feet] were damaged, okay this can happen, however it did not appear to be reported accurately, Can you offer an opinion?
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 11:04
>Subject: Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013
>
>
> 
>Hello All List of those speaking at the conference.
>1, Phil Stone-Welcome.
>
>2 Chris Skidmore Intro and keynote address quite good.
>
>3 Phillipa and Annette Carson-Looking for Richard Project,
>interesting and funny ( Later I had a chat with Phillipa and I got a cuddle from Annette, I told her we all miss her on the forum, she has been very busy )
>
>4 John Ashdown-Hill The Four Strands of Evidence very very interesting, did you know John and Phillipa paid for the DNA tests.
>5 Two people from university talking about Richard in drama and history.
>
>6 Prof Mark Lansdale Psychological Profile of Richard III, much better than I thought it might be, Richard was not a raving psychopath etc.
>
>7 Caroline Wilkinson The "Face of Richard III " excellent.
>
>8 Dr Toby Capwell Richard's Last Battle, very interesting re the armour Richard may have worn and how it would be fitted to hem considering his disability, more to come from him on this one when more test come to the for, but it was fascinating. He did say that Richard's armour maker would have had a very intimate knowledge of Richard's body.
>Dr Capwell travels the world competing in jousts. he knows his stuff.
>
>9 Bob Woosnam-Savage Violent Death of a King. Also very interesting, their thoughts on the helmet so far is that due to a particular face wound Richard was attacked from behind and his helmet strap cut through, then he would be very vunerable more to come on this when they have more info.
>
>10 The Mayor of Leicester- Well what can I say, I don't think I will but I have to say he could not get away fast enough, he would only answer one question.
>
>11 Round up and thanks from Chairman.
>
>The facial reconstruction is much better seen in the flesh so to speak, photo's do not do it justice. I took some myself, mind you I had to tell Dr Phil Stone to shift himself, in a nice way of course.
>
>Thats all for now.
>Christine
>Loyaulte me Lie..
>
>PS If you have any questions I will try to answer them if I can.
>
>
>
>
>

Hello Arthurian, I would not say I was at the centre at all but in my opinion the dig was not done as carefully as it should have been.
I think that they thought no way is this going to be Richard so were not as careful as they should have been.
To me when they got to the point before Jo hit Richard with her mattock they should have been using trowels and been more careful as they could not know what position the remains were in. It looked to me too as if  the leg was scraped by something but I can't be sure.
Jo was not at the conference so we could not ask her any pertinant questions.
This is just my opinion, I'm sure others will have something to say on the matter.
They are continuing to do further test to find out more about Richard's lifestyle and disability.
Best Wishes
Christine


________________________________
From: Arthurian <lancastrian@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 12:44
Subject: Re: Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013


 

   I thank you for your Information.

   I watched the Re-Hash of the T.V. Programme of the Exhumation, Can you, as someone who appears at the 'Centre' Do you think, Apart from the 'Mattock Mishap' that this was done as carefully as possible?

  It appeared to me that the legs [Not the Feet] were damaged, okay this can happen, however it did not appear to be reported accurately, Can you offer an opinion?
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.

>________________________________
> From: "mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com" mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com>
>To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 11:04
>Subject: Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013
>
>
> 
>Hello All List of those speaking at the conference.
>1, Phil Stone-Welcome.
>
>2 Chris Skidmore Intro and keynote address quite good.
>
>3 Phillipa and Annette Carson-Looking for Richard Project,
>interesting and funny ( Later I had a chat with Phillipa and I got a cuddle from Annette, I told her we all miss her on the forum, she has been very busy )
>
>4 John Ashdown-Hill The Four Strands of Evidence very very interesting, did you know John and Phillipa paid for the DNA tests.
>5 Two people from university talking about Richard in drama and history.
>
>6 Prof Mark Lansdale Psychological Profile of Richard III, much better than I thought it might be, Richard was not a raving psychopath etc.
>
>7 Caroline Wilkinson The "Face of Richard III " excellent.
>
>8 Dr Toby Capwell Richard's Last Battle, very interesting re the armour Richard may have worn and how it would be fitted to hem considering his disability, more to come from him on this one when more test come to the for, but it was fascinating. He did say that Richard's armour maker would have had a very intimate knowledge of Richard's body.
>Dr Capwell travels the world competing in jousts. he knows his stuff.
>
>9 Bob Woosnam-Savage Violent Death of a King. Also very interesting, their thoughts on the helmet so far is that due to a particular face wound Richard was attacked from behind and his helmet strap cut through, then he would be very vunerable more to come on this when they have more info.
>
>10 The Mayor of Leicester- Well what can I say, I don't think I will but I have to say he could not get away fast enough, he would only answer one question.
>
>11 Round up and thanks from Chairman.
>
>The facial reconstruction is much better seen in the flesh so to speak, photo's do not do it justice. I took some myself, mind you I had to tell Dr Phil Stone to shift himself, in a nice way of course.
>
>Thats all for now.
>Christine
>Loyaulte me Lie..
>
>PS If you have any questions I will try to answer them if I can.
>
>
>
>
>

Christine wrote:

> Hello All List of those speaking at the conference.
> [snip]
> 3 Phillipa and Annette Carson-Looking for Richard Project,
> interesting and funny ( Later I had a chat with Phillipa and I got a cuddle from Annette, I told her we all miss her on the forum, she has been very busy )
> [snip]
> 5 Two people from university talking about Richard in drama and history.
>
> 6 Prof Mark Lansdale Psychological Profile of Richard III, much better than I thought it might be, Richard was not a raving psychopath etc.
[snip}

Carol responds:

Thanks very much, Christine. I can hardly wait to find out what Annette had to say. I'm also delighted that Dr. Lansdale was there after reading that article on his findings. I hope he and his colleague plan to publish their findings in "Antiquities" or some other journal and that we'll have access to them. Or in the Ricardian!

Were the "two people" talking about Richard in drama and history Sarah Knight and Mary Ann Lund, the authors of the interesting but badly titled TLS article "Richard Crookback"?

http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1208757.ece

Carol

Christine wrote:
>
> Hello Arthurian, I would not say I was at the centre at all but in my opinion the dig was not done as carefully as it should have been.
> I think that they thought no way is this going to be Richard so were not as careful as they should have been.
> To me when they got to the point before Jo hit Richard with her mattock they should have been using trowels and been more careful as they could not know what position the remains were in. It looked to me too as if  the leg was scraped by something but I can't be sure.
> Jo was not at the conference so we could not ask her any pertinant questions. [snip]

Carol responds:

Jo was not at the conference! (I wonder what that indicates!) What about the archaeology department head, Lin Foxhall?

Regarding the damage to the leg, it's possible that it occurred at the beginning of the dig when they weren't expecting to find any skeletons, much less Richard's. The legs were the first bones to be found and then hastily reburied while they obtained a permit for exhumation. Another possibility is that they used that bone to extract DNA (though I was under the impression that they used a femur along with the tooth, and I would hope that they would use only a small slice, not a significant break like the one in the left tibia (the fibula is missing altogether, which makes damage from a trowel, shovel, or, heaven forfend, a bulldozer removing asphalt from the parking lot (car park) if the grave was very shallow). A third possibility is that the bones did indeed shift in the grave despite the absent Dr. Appleby's claims to the contrary.

Carol

Yes Carol it is them. I can't say that I enjoyed it im afraid.
Christine

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Christine wrote:
>
> > Hello All List of those speaking at the conference.
> > [snip]
> > 3 Phillipa and Annette Carson-Looking for Richard Project,
> > interesting and funny ( Later I had a chat with Phillipa and I got a cuddle from Annette, I told her we all miss her on the forum, she has been very busy )
> > [snip]
> > 5 Two people from university talking about Richard in drama and history.
> >
> > 6 Prof Mark Lansdale Psychological Profile of Richard III, much better than I thought it might be, Richard was not a raving psychopath etc.
> [snip}
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks very much, Christine. I can hardly wait to find out what Annette had to say. I'm also delighted that Dr. Lansdale was there after reading that article on his findings. I hope he and his colleague plan to publish their findings in "Antiquities" or some other journal and that we'll have access to them. Or in the Ricardian!
>
> Were the "two people" talking about Richard in drama and history Sarah Knight and Mary Ann Lund, the authors of the interesting but badly titled TLS article "Richard Crookback"?
>
> http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1208757.ece
>
> Carol
>

Thank you - this is really fascinating and I'll look forward to the reports on the Society website as well. I am particular interested in the psychological profiling and would like to read Dr Lansdale's full report whenever it might be possible. 

--- On Mon, 4/3/13, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:

From: christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...>
Subject: Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013
To:
Date: Monday, 4 March, 2013, 11:04
















 









Hello All List of those speaking at the conference.

1, Phil Stone-Welcome.



2 Chris Skidmore Intro and keynote address quite good.



3 Phillipa and Annette Carson-Looking for Richard Project,

interesting and funny ( Later I had a chat with Phillipa and I got a cuddle from Annette, I told her we all miss her on the forum, she has been very busy )



4 John Ashdown-Hill The Four Strands of Evidence very very interesting, did you know John and Phillipa paid for the DNA tests.

5 Two people from university talking about Richard in drama and history.



6 Prof Mark Lansdale Psychological Profile of Richard III, much better than I thought it might be, Richard was not a raving psychopath etc.



7 Caroline Wilkinson The "Face of Richard III " excellent.



8 Dr Toby Capwell Richard's Last Battle, very interesting re the armour Richard may have worn and how it would be fitted to hem considering his disability, more to come from him on this one when more test come to the for, but it was fascinating. He did say that Richard's armour maker would have had a very intimate knowledge of Richard's body.

Dr Capwell travels the world competing in jousts. he knows his stuff.



9 Bob Woosnam-Savage Violent Death of a King. Also very interesting, their thoughts on the helmet so far is that due to a particular face wound Richard was attacked from behind and his helmet strap cut through, then he would be very vunerable more to come on this when they have more info.



10 The Mayor of Leicester- Well what can I say, I don't think I will but I have to say he could not get away fast enough, he would only answer one question.



11 Round up and thanks from Chairman.



The facial reconstruction is much better seen in the flesh so to speak, photo's do not do it justice. I took some myself, mind you I had to tell Dr Phil Stone to shift himself, in a nice way of course.



Thats all for now.

Christine

Loyaulte me Lie..



PS If you have any questions I will try to answer them if I can.

He did mention he was putting together an article for the Ricardian about the profiling.

--- In , Janet Ashton <jaangelfire@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you - this is really fascinating and I'll look forward to the reports on the Society website as well. I am particular interested in the psychological profiling and would like to read Dr Lansdale's full report whenever it might be possible. 
>
> --- On Mon, 4/3/13, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> From: christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...>
> Subject: Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013
> To:
> Date: Monday, 4 March, 2013, 11:04
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello All List of those speaking at the conference.
>
> 1, Phil Stone-Welcome.
>
>
>
> 2 Chris Skidmore Intro and keynote address quite good.
>
>
>
> 3 Phillipa and Annette Carson-Looking for Richard Project,
>
> interesting and funny ( Later I had a chat with Phillipa and I got a cuddle from Annette, I told her we all miss her on the forum, she has been very busy )
>
>
>
> 4 John Ashdown-Hill The Four Strands of Evidence very very interesting, did you know John and Phillipa paid for the DNA tests.
>
> 5 Two people from university talking about Richard in drama and history.
>
>
>
> 6 Prof Mark Lansdale Psychological Profile of Richard III, much better than I thought it might be, Richard was not a raving psychopath etc.
>
>
>
> 7 Caroline Wilkinson The "Face of Richard III " excellent.
>
>
>
> 8 Dr Toby Capwell Richard's Last Battle, very interesting re the armour Richard may have worn and how it would be fitted to hem considering his disability, more to come from him on this one when more test come to the for, but it was fascinating. He did say that Richard's armour maker would have had a very intimate knowledge of Richard's body.
>
> Dr Capwell travels the world competing in jousts. he knows his stuff.
>
>
>
> 9 Bob Woosnam-Savage Violent Death of a King. Also very interesting, their thoughts on the helmet so far is that due to a particular face wound Richard was attacked from behind and his helmet strap cut through, then he would be very vunerable more to come on this when they have more info.
>
>
>
> 10 The Mayor of Leicester- Well what can I say, I don't think I will but I have to say he could not get away fast enough, he would only answer one question.
>
>
>
> 11 Round up and thanks from Chairman.
>
>
>
> The facial reconstruction is much better seen in the flesh so to speak, photo's do not do it justice. I took some myself, mind you I had to tell Dr Phil Stone to shift himself, in a nice way of course.
>
>
>
> Thats all for now.
>
> Christine
>
> Loyaulte me Lie..
>
>
>
> PS If you have any questions I will try to answer them if I can.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>

Thank you - I'l look out for it. 
--- On Mon, 4/3/13, fletcher_kate@... <fletcher_kate@...> wrote:

From: fletcher_kate@... <fletcher_kate@...>
Subject: Re: Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013
To:
Date: Monday, 4 March, 2013, 17:20
















 









He did mention he was putting together an article for the Ricardian about the profiling.



--- In , Janet Ashton wrote:

>

> Thank you - this is really fascinating and I'll look forward to the reports on the Society website as well. I am particular interested in the psychological profiling and would like to read Dr Lansdale's full report whenever it might be possible. 

>

> --- On Mon, 4/3/13, christineholmes651@... wrote:

>

> From: christineholmes651@...

> Subject: Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013

> To:

> Date: Monday, 4 March, 2013, 11:04

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hello All List of those speaking at the conference.

>

> 1, Phil Stone-Welcome.

>

>

>

> 2 Chris Skidmore Intro and keynote address quite good.

>

>

>

> 3 Phillipa and Annette Carson-Looking for Richard Project,

>

> interesting and funny ( Later I had a chat with Phillipa and I got a cuddle from Annette, I told her we all miss her on the forum, she has been very busy )

>

>

>

> 4 John Ashdown-Hill The Four Strands of Evidence very very interesting, did you know John and Phillipa paid for the DNA tests.

>

> 5 Two people from university talking about Richard in drama and history.

>

>

>

> 6 Prof Mark Lansdale Psychological Profile of Richard III, much better than I thought it might be, Richard was not a raving psychopath etc.

>

>

>

> 7 Caroline Wilkinson The "Face of Richard III " excellent.

>

>

>

> 8 Dr Toby Capwell Richard's Last Battle, very interesting re the armour Richard may have worn and how it would be fitted to hem considering his disability, more to come from him on this one when more test come to the for, but it was fascinating. He did say that Richard's armour maker would have had a very intimate knowledge of Richard's body.

>

> Dr Capwell travels the world competing in jousts. he knows his stuff.

>

>

>

> 9 Bob Woosnam-Savage Violent Death of a King. Also very interesting, their thoughts on the helmet so far is that due to a particular face wound Richard was attacked from behind and his helmet strap cut through, then he would be very vunerable more to come on this when they have more info.

>

>

>

> 10 The Mayor of Leicester- Well what can I say, I don't think I will but I have to say he could not get away fast enough, he would only answer one question.

>

>

>

> 11 Round up and thanks from Chairman.

>

>

>

> The facial reconstruction is much better seen in the flesh so to speak, photo's do not do it justice. I took some myself, mind you I had to tell Dr Phil Stone to shift himself, in a nice way of course.

>

>

>

> Thats all for now.

>

> Christine

>

> Loyaulte me Lie..

>

>

>

> PS If you have any questions I will try to answer them if I can.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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>

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: Richard III Society Conference
University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013


> Regarding the damage to the leg, it's possible that it occurred at the
> beginning of the dig when they weren't expecting to find any skeletons,
> much less Richard's. The legs were the first bones to be found and then
> hastily reburied while they obtained a permit for exhumation. Another
> possibility is that they used that bone to extract DNA (though I was under
> the impression that they used a femur along with the tooth, and I would
> hope that they would use only a small slice, not a significant break like
> the one in the left tibia (the fibula is missing altogether, which makes
> damage from a trowel, shovel, or, heaven forfend, a bulldozer removing
> asphalt from the parking lot (car park) if the grave was very shallow).

Could also be that the bone was splintered by turning force when his feet
and ankles were swept away during the Victorian building work. [I'd love to
know how the ground was broken when that work was done - if they broke the
ground first with a plough rather than a spade his feet may still be there,
turned with the soil to lie only a few *ahem* feet away.]

Or it could have been broken during the battle, possibly because half a ton
of dead horse came down on his leg. The fact that he has two cuts on the
right side of his face and none on the left slightly suggests that he did
end up with his left side down against the ground.

> A third possibility is that the bones did indeed shift in the grave
> despite the absent Dr. Appleby's claims to the contrary.

I personally have no problem at all with the idea of Richard having severe
scoliosis, so long as we can assume he had access to regular massage to keep
him moving (and at the very least there must have been people who know how
to rub down horses with sore backs!). Nevertheless, logic suggests that his
back may well have ended up a bit more compacted than it was in life,
because he was buried half-sitting and so gravity would tend to cause his
upper body to slump down a bit, unless the earth was actually built up under
him like a pillow..

At the Conference on Saturday Philippa stated that there were over 60 hours of footage not used in the two documentaries. I think if we ever get to see any of this footage we would have a better idea of how well Grayfriars was excavated. There is more footage being shown in the Guildhall. 
As a past Archaeologist I have not seen anything yet which would make me doubt the professionalism of the arcaheologist and think others would do better

Carole


________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 18:42
Subject: Re: Richard III Society Conference University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013


 
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: Richard III Society Conference
University of Leicester Sat 2.3.2013

> Regarding the damage to the leg, it's possible that it occurred at the
> beginning of the dig when they weren't expecting to find any skeletons,
> much less Richard's. The legs were the first bones to be found and then
> hastily reburied while they obtained a permit for exhumation. Another
> possibility is that they used that bone to extract DNA (though I was under
> the impression that they used a femur along with the tooth, and I would
> hope that they would use only a small slice, not a significant break like
> the one in the left tibia (the fibula is missing altogether, which makes
> damage from a trowel, shovel, or, heaven forfend, a bulldozer removing
> asphalt from the parking lot (car park) if the grave was very shallow).

Could also be that the bone was splintered by turning force when his feet
and ankles were swept away during the Victorian building work. [I'd love to
know how the ground was broken when that work was done - if they broke the
ground first with a plough rather than a spade his feet may still be there,
turned with the soil to lie only a few *ahem* feet away.]

Or it could have been broken during the battle, possibly because half a ton
of dead horse came down on his leg. The fact that he has two cuts on the
right side of his face and none on the left slightly suggests that he did
end up with his left side down against the ground.

> A third possibility is that the bones did indeed shift in the grave
> despite the absent Dr. Appleby's claims to the contrary.

I personally have no problem at all with the idea of Richard having severe
scoliosis, so long as we can assume he had access to regular massage to keep
him moving (and at the very least there must have been people who know how
to rub down horses with sore backs!). Nevertheless, logic suggests that his
back may well have ended up a bit more compacted than it was in life,
because he was buried half-sitting and so gravity would tend to cause his
upper body to slump down a bit, unless the earth was actually built up under
him like a pillow..