New Member

Hi
 
I'm  June,  a  new  member,  and  i'm  really  looking  forward  to  talking  about   Richard  111,  there  are   lots  of  messages  to  read,  so  i  will  come   back  to  them,  but  for  now  i  would  love  to  hear  from  anyone  who  has  read  a  wonderful  book  by---Sharon  Penman---The  Sun In  Spendour,  for  me  it's  the  very  best  book  about  Richard ,  he  has  been  a  hero  of  mine  since  the  197'0's,  then  i  read  books  by  Rosemary  Hawley  Jarmon  and  Rhoda  Edwards.
 
 
June 

Welcome, June, from the Brooklyn contingent! I hope you enjoy your time
with us here in the wonderful world of Richard III, which, at the moment,
is an exciting place to be. Would love to know how you came to us, and if
it had anything to do with the discovery of Richard in the car park?

I just recently re-read _Sun in Splendour_ on my Kindle, and found myself
enjoying it again, as I had before. Yes, the characterizations are, for
the most part, nicely complex - I think she does an even better job with
Edward than she does with Richard: his shadows and lights are deeper and
hold more consequences for all involved. Her Anne has more backbone than
most fictional Annes, and there's humor in the book, too, which is nice.

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 9:09 AM, June Batchelor <junebatchelor@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi
>
> I'm June, a new member, and i'm really looking forward
> to talking about Richard 111, there are lots of messages to
> read, so i will come back to them, but for now i would love
> to hear from anyone who has read a wonderful book by---Sharon
> Penman---The Sun In Spendour, for me it's the very best book
> about Richard , he has been a hero of mine since the 197'0's,
> then i read books by Rosemary Hawley Jarmon and Rhoda Edwards.
>
>
> June
>
>
>
>
>

We are all on a long reading list, and for many of us, Sharon Penman started us on the road. Welcome......I am a semi newbie!!!
Pamela B

On Mar 4, 2013, at 8:10 AM, "June Batchelor" <junebatchelor@...<mailto:junebatchelor@...>> wrote:



Hi

I'm June, a new member, and i'm really looking forward to talking about Richard 111, there are lots of messages to read, so i will come back to them, but for now i would love to hear from anyone who has read a wonderful book by---Sharon Penman---The Sun In Spendour, for me it's the very best book about Richard , he has been a hero of mine since the 197'0's, then i read books by Rosemary Hawley Jarmon and Rhoda Edwards.


June

Hi June,
 
welcome to the group.  I've learned so much in the few months I've been on here - we have some amazing contributors. .Like you I first "met" Richard in the 1970s, thanks to Rosemary Hawley Jarman. 
 
I  am a big fan of Sharon Penman and have read everything she's written except "Lionheart", not quite sure why I haven't got to that yet.  (to paraphrase the Robert Cray song "so many books, so little time" ). I am definitely overdue for a re-reading of Sunne, once I get through all these e mails that is!
 
Liz
 
 


________________________________
From: June Batchelor <junebatchelor@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 14:09
Subject: New Member

 
Hi
 
I'm  June,  a  new  member,  and  i'm  really  looking  forward  to  talking  about   Richard  111,  there  are   lots  of  messages  to  read,  so  i  will  come   back  to  them,  but  for  now  i  would  love  to  hear  from  anyone  who  has  read  a  wonderful  book  by---Sharon  Penman---The  Sun In  Spendour,  for  me  it's  the  very  best  book  about  Richard ,  he  has  been  a  hero  of  mine  since  the  197'0's,  then  i  read  books  by  Rosemary  Hawley  Jarmon  and  Rhoda  Edwards.
 
 
June 

The Sunne In Splendour is pretty rare, I hear, don't think anyone here will have read it :(

--- In , June Batchelor <junebatchelor@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>  
> I'm  June,  a  new  member,  and  i'm  really  looking  forward  to  talking  about   Richard  111,  there  are   lots  of  messages  to  read,  so  i  will  come   back  to  them,  but  for  now  i  would  love  to  hear  from  anyone  who  has  read  a  wonderful  book  by---Sharon  Penman---The  Sun In  Spendour,  for  me  it's  the  very  best  book  about  Richard ,  he  has  been  a  hero  of  mine  since  the  197'0's,  then  i  read  books  by  Rosemary  Hawley  Jarmon  and  Rhoda  Edwards.
>  
>  
> June 
>
>
>

Hi !
 
I'm a new member.
 
The Sunne in Splendour has been reprinted, or at least I have a fairly recent print of it.
 
Fantastic book.  Read it through, and then re-reading it again.  Sharon Penman has a real gift. 
 
Pat


________________________________
From: blancsanglier1452 <blancsanglier1452@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 20:26
Subject: Re: New Member

 
The Sunne In Splendour is pretty rare, I hear, don't think anyone here will have read it :(

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, June Batchelor wrote:
>
> Hi
>  
> I'm  June,  a  new  member,  and  i'm  really  looking  forward  to  talking  about   Richard  111,  there  are   lots  of  messages  to  read,  so  i  will  come   back  to  them,  but  for  now  i  would  love  to  hear  from  anyone  who  has  read  a  wonderful  book  by---Sharon  Penman---The  Sun In  Spendour,  for  me  it's  the  very  best  book  about  Richard ,  he  has  been  a  hero  of  mine  since  the  197'0's,  then  i  read  books  by  Rosemary  Hawley  Jarmon  and  Rhoda  Edwards.
>  
>  
> June 
>
>
>

I would imagine that lots of people on this site have read "Sunne". Incidentally it is being re-released. Sharon Penman is working on it at present.

--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> The Sunne In Splendour is pretty rare, I hear, don't think anyone here will have read it :(
>
> --- In , June Batchelor <junebatchelor@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >  
> > I'm  June,  a  new  member,  and  i'm  really  looking  forward  to  talking  about   Richard  111,  there  are   lots  of  messages  to  read,  so  i  will  come   back  to  them,  but  for  now  i  would  love  to  hear  from  anyone  who  has  read  a  wonderful  book  by---Sharon  Penman---The  Sun In  Spendour,  for  me  it's  the  very  best  book  about  Richard ,  he  has  been  a  hero  of  mine  since  the  197'0's,  then  i  read  books  by  Rosemary  Hawley  Jarmon  and  Rhoda  Edwards.
> >  
> >  
> > June 
> >
> >
> >
>

"blancsanglier1452" wrote:
>
> The Sunne In Splendour is pretty rare, I hear, don't think anyone here will have read it :(

Carol responds:

You're pulling her leg, right? I think that most of us have read it and many like it (especially those who also like Paul Murray Kendall's biography of Richard, which she follows rather closely in many respects). A few posters have complained about her dialogue ("we be" and so forth, which admittedly takes some getting used to), but I like her sympathetic and detailed characterization of Richard (even though there's no evidence that anyone called him Dickon before Hall invented that note attached to Norfolk's gate--it only becomes his tent in Shakespeare).

I've read the book too many times to need to reread it--good thing, too, as I lent it to my sister, who lent it to my mother, who now thinks that it's hers!

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: New Member


> (even though there's no evidence that anyone called him Dickon before Hall
> invented that note attached to Norfolk's gate--

It's almost inevitable that they did, though - either Dickon or Hitch, which
was another old nickname for people called Richard. Names in Britain are
almost invariably mutated into some sort of nickname unless they are
single-syllable: even two-syllable names get changed e.g Stuart becomes
Stewie. I don't know if you've heard the rhyme

Elizabeth, Lizzy, Betsy and Bess,
All went together to seek a bird's nest;
They found a nest with five eggs in it;
They each took one and left four in it.

And there's that Stanley letter referring to "Old Dick" which, even if it
was written after Richard's death, probably does refer to him - because if
it was after his death it was probably only a few weeks after, and likely
refers to sorting out his paperwork.

Carol earlier:
> > (even though there's no evidence that anyone called him Dickon before Hall invented that note attached to Norfolk's gate--

Clarie responded:
> It's almost inevitable that they did, though - either Dickon or Hitch, which was another old nickname for people called Richard. Names in Britain are almost invariably mutated into some sort of nickname unless they are single-syllable: even two-syllable names get changed e.g Stuart becomes Stewie. [snip]

> And there's that Stanley letter referring to "Old Dick" which, even if it was written after Richard's death, probably does refer to him - because if it was after his death it was probably only a few weeks after, and likely refers to sorting out his paperwork.

Carol responds:

Maybe, I can certainly see the need to differentiate among all the Richards (and even more so, Edwards, Elizabeths, and Annes) in Richard's life. But "Old Dick" was clearly a sneering reference by a man (sir william Stanley) who was some seventeen years older than Richard and probably regarded him (rightly?) as a workaholic who expected the same sort of devotion to duty from his men. I doubt that Sir William called Richard "Dick" to his face (especially since he was a mere knight). As for "Hitch," which I've never heard, it sounds very working class.

I vaguely recall reading a novel that has Dirk, Dick, Richard, and Dickon to distinguish the various Richards (before two are killed at Wakefield), and I suppose it's plausible that Richard, as the youngest of the group, would end up as Dickon, which sounds like a diminutive (comparable to Dickie today). Too bad they hadn't yet come up with Rick, Rich, Ricky, and Richie! (I've never figured out, either, how Robert could become (besides Robin and Rob) Bob and Hob!)

All I'm saying is that the nickname Dickon appears to stem from the "Dickon thy master" rhyme, which occurs in no chronicle before Hall and appears to be his invention. (It becomes "fact" from there.) Admittedly, there's Dickon's Well near the old Bosworth site, which may actually have been so named out of affection for the dead king, but whether it predates Hall, I don't know. It seems to me that authors like Penman simply like the nickname Dickon and attach it to Richard without trying to discover whether it has any historical validity.

Carol

> And there's that Stanley letter referring to "Old Dick" which, even if it
was written after Richard's death, probably does refer to him - because if
it was after his death it was probably only a few weeks after, and likely
refers to sorting out his paperwork.

Oh, yes, and there's also Dickon's Well - although we don't know how long
it's had that name.

  I do find 'Dickon' an attractive 'Shorthand' for Richard.

 These were 'Hard Men', Northern Centric,  [Think on Today's Yorkshire Tykes!!] 

The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. 

  Whilst today in the workplace we might be familiar [in some circumstances] with a superior in private, we might not be so in public. I can see no reason for these or similar unwritten rules to have prevailed then. 

   Henry VIII was 'Backslapping Familiar' with his male jousting/hunting friends, until he found it expedient to 'Send Them to the Block' as part of the process needed to get rid of Anne Bolynne.

  Richard as a 'Northern Duke' was loyal to his friends and they reciprocated.

 Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 22:19
>Subject: Re: New Member
>
>
> 
>Carol earlier:
>> > (even though there's no evidence that anyone called him Dickon before Hall invented that note attached to Norfolk's gate--
>
>Clarie responded:
>> It's almost inevitable that they did, though - either Dickon or Hitch, which was another old nickname for people called Richard. Names in Britain are almost invariably mutated into some sort of nickname unless they are single-syllable: even two-syllable names get changed e.g Stuart becomes Stewie. [snip]
>
>> And there's that Stanley letter referring to "Old Dick" which, even if it was written after Richard's death, probably does refer to him - because if it was after his death it was probably only a few weeks after, and likely refers to sorting out his paperwork.
>
>Carol responds:
>
>Maybe, I can certainly see the need to differentiate among all the Richards (and even more so, Edwards, Elizabeths, and Annes) in Richard's life. But "Old Dick" was clearly a sneering reference by a man (sir william Stanley) who was some seventeen years older than Richard and probably regarded him (rightly?) as a workaholic who expected the same sort of devotion to duty from his men. I doubt that Sir William called Richard "Dick" to his face (especially since he was a mere knight). As for "Hitch," which I've never heard, it sounds very working class.
>
>I vaguely recall reading a novel that has Dirk, Dick, Richard, and Dickon to distinguish the various Richards (before two are killed at Wakefield), and I suppose it's plausible that Richard, as the youngest of the group, would end up as Dickon, which sounds like a diminutive (comparable to Dickie today). Too bad they hadn't yet come up with Rick, Rich, Ricky, and Richie! (I've never figured out, either, how Robert could become (besides Robin and Rob) Bob and Hob!)
>
>All I'm saying is that the nickname Dickon appears to stem from the "Dickon thy master" rhyme, which occurs in no chronicle before Hall and appears to be his invention. (It becomes "fact" from there.) Admittedly, there's Dickon's Well near the old Bosworth site, which may actually have been so named out of affection for the dead king, but whether it predates Hall, I don't know. It seems to me that authors like Penman simply like the nickname Dickon and attach it to Richard without trying to discover whether it has any historical validity.
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>

Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

Carol, You are a Joy & an Education,
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.
Retired, Aged Forensic Nurse. R.N.M.S., R.M.N., S.R.N.
[& a few other bits!!] Brass Rubber Extraordinary]



>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
>Subject: Re: New Member
>
>
> 
>Arthur wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]
>
>Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: New Member


> or starved to death in his own cellar

Not necessarily - he could have been thumped on the head at Stoke and died
of a cerebral haemorrhage after reaching Minster Lovel, or received some
other injury which turned manky, and died of septicaemia.

I do believe the Tudors have more skeletons in the closet that most people (like me) have ever heard about. What happened to the "body in the cellar"? Any postulations by Sir Thomas More, the Tudor lackey???

On Mar 4, 2013, at 5:53 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67@...>> wrote:



Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dogý were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases.ý [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

Arthur wrote:
>
> Carol, You are a Joy & an Education,
>  
> Kind Regards,
>  
> Arthur.
> Retired, Aged Forensic Nurse. R.N.M.S., R.M.N., S.R.N.
> [& a few other bits!!] Brass Rubber Extraordinary]

Carol responds:

Thank you, Arthur. Ir's fun to "talk" with you.

BTW, here's a point on which you can educate me. Is the Lake Country anywhere near York? I'm asking because I may be traveling to England in 2014.

Carol, PhD, former college instructor, copyeditor, and grandmother

The 'Lake District' [Not Country] is in the North West, York & Middleham in the North on the Eastern part of England [The Pennines are in between.]

The Lake District.
Mainly Windermere, Lake Coniston & Derwent Water. + Many Smaller Lakes.

The area is Mountainous, Famous for several Poets/Writers.

Wordsworth [I wandered lonely as a Cloud] Beatrix Potter [Children's Writer/Illustrator, Tailor of Gloucester,, Peter Rabbit, Mrs. Tiggywinkle, Jemima Puddleduck. [See Film 'Miss Potter] John Ruskin - [Humanist/Artist. Supported the 
Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood @ least until one ran off with his wife! Other Poets include: Coleridge [Ancient Mariner] & Robt. Southey [Goldilocks & Three Bears.]

The Lake District is near Hadrian's Wall. If you crossed over to the North East Durham Cathedral is worth a look.

York, Apart from the Minster, Well into 'Top Three' of our Cathedrals, York has, with Chester, very well preserved city walls, National Railway Museum, Viking Museum, Old Shops [known as the Shambles] Richard's Middleham & Yorkshire Dales, not too far away. Real Ale, Wensley Dale Cheese, Limestone Walls & Naturally formed limestone waterfalls & 'Pavement.

Liverpool & it's history, River-front, Maritime Museum, Chester Walls, Cathedral, Roman Archaeology Digs.

Let me know if you have a particular interest. The graves of the treacherous Stanley family are at Ormskirk.
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 1:48
>Subject: Re: New Member
>
>
> 
>Arthur wrote:
>>
>> Carol, You are a Joy & an Education,
>>  
>> Kind Regards,
>>  
>> Arthur.
>> Retired, Aged Forensic Nurse. R.N.M.S., R.M.N., S.R.N.
>> [& a few other bits!!] Brass Rubber Extraordinary]
>
>Carol responds:
>
>Thank you, Arthur. Ir's fun to "talk" with you.
>
>BTW, here's a point on which you can educate me. Is the Lake Country anywhere near York? I'm asking because I may be traveling to England in 2014.
>
>Carol, PhD, former college instructor, copyeditor, and grandmother
>
>
>
>
>

From: Arthurian
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


> The 'Lake District' [Not Country] is in the North West, York & Middleham
> in the North on the Eastern part of England [The Pennines are in between.]

Further to this, the Lake District is around 85 miles north-west from York,
and the Pennines are a socking-great north-south range of hills (nearly
mountains) which split the north in half. It's quite hard to get from the
Lake District to York because the main roads and railway lines run up either
side of the Pennines but there *are* roads across, so long as you don't try
it when it's snowing.

Your best bet to get across is probably to go about 60 miles south from the
Lakes to Manchester and then there's a main road which cuts round the
southern end of the Pennines. Alternatively you can go north into central
Scotland, passing by the west end of the Scottish Borders (another almost
impassable range of hills, this time east-west), cross across the middle of
Scotland and turn south again past the east end of the Borders.

If you are in the Lake District then Penrith is only a few miles away.
Richard lived at Penrith Castle for a while and also stayed at a house there
(which is now a pub called iirc the Gloucester Arms) while the castle had
builders in.

Carol,
 
Rarely dare I nit pick with you so I apologise in advance. Catesby had been around for quite a time; he was working for the Butlers, Hastings and Clarence in the 1470s, the latter two post 1475. Daddy Catesby worked for the Butlers, too, as you know, which could mean he knew Edward IV depending on how much you believe about the pre-contract. I would agree that Catesby junior was up and coming in the sense that this seems to be the first time he worked directly for a monarch, but the Catesbys had been dabbling in the upper eschelons of Warks, Northants and Glos for nigh on twenty years. I did find it fascinating that Catesby junior was working for both Hastings and Clarence in the year of Clarence's demise. Did he pass on anything about the pre-contract? And is it because he worked for Clarence that Richard took him on? (I found this out from a list of Warwickshire retainers to the gentry in the Warks Record Office - Catesby is listed as a servant to
both Hastings and Clarence in 1478).  H
 

________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
Subject: Re: New Member

 

Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"
 
 
Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?
 
 

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
Subject: Re: New Member

 
Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?


________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 9:59
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


 

"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"
 
 
Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?
 
 

From: justcarol67 mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
Subject: Re: New Member

 
Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

What?  Our Francis let Tudor in?  Oh no.


From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:11
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 
Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?


________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 9:59
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


 

"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"
 
 
Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?
 
 

From: justcarol67 mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
Subject: Re: New Member

 
Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

I've read it somewhere and remember thinking he must never have got over that. Must look it up when have access to books.



________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:15
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


 

What?  Our Francis let Tudor in?  Oh no.

From: Hilary Jones mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:11
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 
Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 9:59
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 

"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"
 
 
Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?
 
 

From: justcarol67 mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
Subject: Re: New Member

 
Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

Well having searched the usual places the bad news is that Kendall and Baldwin have our Francis guarding Southampton and missing Tudor going to Milford Haven, but Kendall and Ross have him at Bosworth - though before you ask, Carol, they don't quote sources. I'm sure I've read somewhere that it was just assumed he was there because he was one of the household and sought sanctuary afterwards at Colchester with the rest. Anyone else come across that?  I think it was based on the fact that it would have taken him too long to get from Southampton to Leicester before the battle.   H   


________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:15
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


 

What?  Our Francis let Tudor in?  Oh no.

From: Hilary Jones mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:11
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 
Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 9:59
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 

"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"
 
 
Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?
 
 

From: justcarol67 mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
Subject: Re: New Member

 
Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

My sources for the present project seem to think he must have been there - why else seek sanctuary? Incidentally, the Stafford brothers of Grafton joined him in Colchester but rebelled a few months afterwards, the elder being executed.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member



Well having searched the usual places the bad news is that Kendall and Baldwin have our Francis guarding Southampton and missing Tudor going to Milford Haven, but Kendall and Ross have him at Bosworth - though before you ask, Carol, they don't quote sources. I'm sure I've read somewhere that it was just assumed he was there because he was one of the household and sought sanctuary afterwards at Colchester with the rest. Anyone else come across that? I think it was based on the fact that it would have taken him too long to get from Southampton to Leicester before the battle. H


________________________________
From: liz williams ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" >
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:15
Subject: Re: Re: New Member




What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

From: Hilary Jones mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:11
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 9:59
Subject: Re: Re: New Member



"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"


Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?



From: justcarol67 mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
Subject: Re: New Member


Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

Well I suppose he'd seek sanctuary because he was bound to end up dead anyway if captured like Catesby. And yes I read about the Stafford brothers being with him. I'm not dug in about him not being there; just sure I've read somewhere that he wasn't. Could have been on a Tudor website? 



________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 12:18
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 

My sources for the present project seem to think he must have been there - why else seek sanctuary? Incidentally, the Stafford brothers of Grafton joined him in Colchester but rebelled a few months afterwards, the elder being executed.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

Well having searched the usual places the bad news is that Kendall and Baldwin have our Francis guarding Southampton and missing Tudor going to Milford Haven, but Kendall and Ross have him at Bosworth - though before you ask, Carol, they don't quote sources. I'm sure I've read somewhere that it was just assumed he was there because he was one of the household and sought sanctuary afterwards at Colchester with the rest. Anyone else come across that? I think it was based on the fact that it would have taken him too long to get from Southampton to Leicester before the battle. H

________________________________
From: liz williams ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: ">
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:15
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

From: Hilary Jones mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:11
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 9:59
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"


Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?



From: justcarol67 mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 23:53
Subject: Re: New Member

Arthur wrote:

[snip]
> The Cat, The Rat & Lovell the Dog were ALL [As I understand it] Relatively Lowly on the 'Social Scale', however they were friends of Richards, to the death in some cases. [snip]

Catesby was an up-and-coming young lawyer who perhaps should not have been at Bosworth. (He survived the battle only to be executed.) It's hard to know the truth about him because almost everyone judges him harshly whether they like Richard or not. Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Francis, Lord Lovell were friends of Richard's from his boyhood with Warwick in Yorkshire (when he was thirteen to sixteen). Ratcliffe was from a gentry family; Richard knighted him during the Scottish campaign. He was one of Richard's household knights and died with him at Bosworth. Francis Lovell, far from being low on the social scale, was Warwick's ward after his wealthy father, a baron, died fighting for the Lancastrians. Warwick had him married as a child to his little niece, Anna Fitzhugh, whose father was also a baron. Edward IV had created him a viscount in 1483 and Richard made him a Knight of the Garter and made him lord chamberlain after he became king. It's unclear
whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time, but he was certainly considered a traitor and fought to reinstate the House of York at the Battle of Stoke in 1487 after taking with Richard's sister, Margaret, in Burgundy. Whether he fled to Scotland after that or starved to death in his own cellar is another of the many mysteries related to Richard III. The Scotland story seems more likely since the house ended up in the hands of Jasper Tudor, but, then, whose was that skeleton in the cellar?

Carol

 I'm very pleased to hear this because I live there but why Colchester specifically? 

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 12:24
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 
Well I suppose he'd seek sanctuary because he was bound to end up dead anyway if captured like Catesby. And yes I read about the Stafford brothers being with him. I'm not dug in about him not being there; just sure I've read somewhere that he wasn't. Could have been on a Tudor website? 

________________________________
From: Stephen Lark mailto:stephenmlark%40talktalk.net>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 12:18
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 

My sources for the present project seem to think he must have been there - why else seek sanctuary? Incidentally, the Stafford brothers of Grafton joined him in Colchester but rebelled a few months afterwards, the elder being executed.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

Well having searched the usual places the bad news is that Kendall and Baldwin have our Francis guarding Southampton and missing Tudor going to Milford Haven, but Kendall and Ross have him at Bosworth - though before you ask, Carol, they don't quote sources. I'm sure I've read somewhere that it was just assumed he was there because he was one of the household and sought sanctuary afterwards at Colchester with the rest. Anyone else come across that? I think it was based on the fact that it would have taken him too long to get from Southampton to Leicester before the battle. H

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:15
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

From: Hilary Jones mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:11
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 9:59
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"

Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> >
> > The Sunne In Splendour is pretty rare, I hear, don't think anyone here will have read it :(
>
> Carol responds:
>
> You're pulling her leg, right? I think that most of us have read it and many like it

Well spotted! Compared to all these other eagle-eyed Ricardians :p

I think TSiS started many of us on the road, did it not? I was lent it by my history teacher when I was fourteen; which was a highlight amongst the agrarian sodding revolution ;)

That I don't know, I'm afraid.
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member



I'm very pleased to hear this because I live there but why Colchester specifically?

From: Hilary Jones hjnatdat@...>
To: "" >
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 12:24
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


Well I suppose he'd seek sanctuary because he was bound to end up dead anyway if captured like Catesby. And yes I read about the Stafford brothers being with him. I'm not dug in about him not being there; just sure I've read somewhere that he wasn't. Could have been on a Tudor website?

________________________________
From: Stephen Lark mailto:stephenmlark%40talktalk.net>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 12:18
Subject: Re: Re: New Member



My sources for the present project seem to think he must have been there - why else seek sanctuary? Incidentally, the Stafford brothers of Grafton joined him in Colchester but rebelled a few months afterwards, the elder being executed.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

Well having searched the usual places the bad news is that Kendall and Baldwin have our Francis guarding Southampton and missing Tudor going to Milford Haven, but Kendall and Ross have him at Bosworth - though before you ask, Carol, they don't quote sources. I'm sure I've read somewhere that it was just assumed he was there because he was one of the household and sought sanctuary afterwards at Colchester with the rest. Anyone else come across that? I think it was based on the fact that it would have taken him too long to get from Southampton to Leicester before the battle. H

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:15
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

From: Hilary Jones mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 10:11
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 9:59
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

"It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"

Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?

Cutting into Scotland seems a bit drastic! :-)
 
The main road across the Pennines from Manchester is of course the M62, a major motorway, but the most picturesque route is the A66, which runs from just north of Richmond and Middleham to Penrith - this is the one which can be tricky in winter, but it's a great drive otherwise. I'd take the A1M and then the A66 if going from York to the Lakes (or vice versa), stopping off at Middleham etc on the way.

--- On Tue, 5/3/13, Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...> wrote:


From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
Subject: Re: Re: New Member
To:
Date: Tuesday, 5 March, 2013, 9:45



 



From: Arthurian
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

> The 'Lake District' [Not Country] is in the North West, York & Middleham
> in the North on the Eastern part of England [The Pennines are in between.]

Further to this, the Lake District is around 85 miles north-west from York,
and the Pennines are a socking-great north-south range of hills (nearly
mountains) which split the north in half. It's quite hard to get from the
Lake District to York because the main roads and railway lines run up either
side of the Pennines but there *are* roads across, so long as you don't try
it when it's snowing.

Your best bet to get across is probably to go about 60 miles south from the
Lakes to Manchester and then there's a main road which cuts round the
southern end of the Pennines. Alternatively you can go north into central
Scotland, passing by the west end of the Scottish Borders (another almost
impassable range of hills, this time east-west), cross across the middle of
Scotland and turn south again past the east end of the Borders.

After the failure of the Epiphany Rising during the reign of Henry IV, John Holland, Earl of Huntingdon, tried to escape to the Continent from Essex, but was driven back by unhelpful weather and eventually captured at Pleshey. Might Lovell & Co have been intending to the make the same escape along a similar route, but found pursuit too hard upon their heels? Or they too knew the weather would keep them in England? Colchester would definitely be on the way from Bosworth.

The Norfolk coast i.e. King's Lynn is about 40 miles closer to the battle; but who knows where they had contacts with a ship?



________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 13:42
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


 

After the failure of the Epiphany Rising during the reign of Henry IV, John Holland, Earl of Huntingdon, tried to escape to the Continent from Essex, but was driven back by unhelpful weather and eventually captured at Pleshey. Might Lovell & Co have been intending to the make the same escape along a similar route, but found pursuit too hard upon their heels? Or they too knew the weather would keep them in England? Colchester would definitely be on the way from Bosworth.

Arthur wrote:
>
> The 'Lake District' [Not Country] is in the North West, York & Middleham in the North on the Eastern part of England [The Pennines are in between.]
>
> The Lake District.
> Mainly Windermere, Lake Coniston & Derwent Water. + Many Smaller Lakes.
>
> The area is Mountainous, Famous for several Poets/Writers.
>
> Wordsworth [I wandered lonely as a Cloud]
[snip]
>
> York, Apart from the Minster, Well into 'Top Three' of our Cathedrals, York has, with Chester, very well preserved city walls, National Railway Museum, Viking Museum, Old Shops [known as the Shambles] Richard's Middleham & Yorkshire Dales, not too far away. Real Ale, Wensley Dale Cheese, Limestone Walls & Naturally formed limestone waterfalls & 'Pavement.

[snip]

> Let me know if you have a particular interest. The graves of the treacherous Stanley family are at Ormskirk.

Carol responds:

Thanks, yes. I did mean Lake District (don't know where that slip of the mental cogs came from), which is associated in my mind with Wordsworth. (My PhD focused on the English Romantic poets, so I tend to think more of the Prelude than his lyrics--except maybe when I see a daffodil ["and then my heart with laughter fills/and dances with the daffodils"]. I much prefer Shelley, Keats, or Byron, actually, and bits of Coleridge.) But, still, I'd like to see the Lake District if it's near Middleham, which I also want to see.

Essentially, I'm trying to figure out whether Richard would have been familiar with Wordsworth's Lake District. But, of course, in Wordsworth's day, Tintern Abbey was a picturesque ruin and little hedgerows separated the fields, which they would not have done while Richard lived.

I'll skip the Stanley graves, though!

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: New Member


> Essentially, I'm trying to figure out whether Richard would have been
> familiar with Wordsworth's Lake District.

Almost certainly. He spent a lot of time at Penrith which is only about
three miles from the inland edge of the Lake District, and it would be
surprising if he never rode west while he was there.

"Claire M Jordan" wrote:

> Further to this, the Lake District is around 85 miles north-west from York, and the Pennines are a socking-great north-south range of hills (nearly mountains) which split the north in half. It's quite hard to get from the Lake District to York because the main roads and railway lines run up either side of the Pennines but there *are* roads across, so long as you don't try it when it's snowing.
[snip]
> If you are in the Lake District then Penrith is only a few miles away. Richard lived at Penrith Castle for a while and also stayed at a house there (which is now a pub called iirc the Gloucester Arms) while the castle had builders in.

Carol responds:

Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she isn't.)

Carol

I remember it as very beautiful: way back in 1980, I took a Shakespeare
test at Brooklyn College and won a six-week scholarship at
Stratford-upon-Avon. About five students, including me, took a weekend to
drive up to Edinburgh via New Castle, then back to Stratford via the Lake
District (I don't drive; I paid my share of the gasoline). We had a
wonderful time, and the trip there and back was glorious - including the
getting lost right around New Castle.

Maria
ejbronte@...
(who since then has done a couple of solo, public transportation treks to
the North of England, to indulge twin obsessions with Richard and Anne
Bronte)

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Claire M Jordan
<whitehound@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:44 PM
> Subject: Re: New Member
>
>
> > Essentially, I'm trying to figure out whether Richard would have been
> > familiar with Wordsworth's Lake District.
>
> Almost certainly. He spent a lot of time at Penrith which is only about
> three miles from the inland edge of the Lake District, and it would be
> surprising if he never rode west while he was there.
>
>
>

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: New Member


> Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and
> stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester.

Start with the Yorkshire group, then Grantham, then go to Leicester, then go
from Leicester up the west side of the Pennines to Penrith, then have a look
at the Lakes if you still have time.

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Carol,
>  
> Rarely dare I nit pick with you so I apologise in advance. Catesby had been around for quite a time; he was working for the Butlers, Hastings and Clarence in the 1470s, the latter two post 1475. Daddy Catesby worked for the Butlers, too, as you know, which could mean he knew Edward IV depending on how much you believe about the pre-contract. I would agree that Catesby junior was up and coming in the sense that this seems to be the first time he worked directly for a monarch, but the Catesbys had been dabbling in the upper eschelons of Warks, Northants and Glos for nigh on twenty years. I did find it fascinating that Catesby junior was working for both Hastings and Clarence in the year of Clarence's demise. Did he pass on anything about the pre-contract? And is it because he worked for Clarence that Richard took him on? (I found this out from a list of Warwickshire retainers to the gentry in the Warks Record Office - Catesby is listed as a servant to both Hastings and Clarence in 1478).  H

Carol responds:

Yes, I've read Peter Hancock's "Richard III and the Murder in the Tower," which gives all of Catesby's connections (and links him to the precontract, making him seem more important than Stillington and very eager for Hastings's lands). I was trying to keep my post simple (I have a tendency, as you know, to go off in the opposite direction). The point was simply that "the Cat, the Rat, and Lovell our dog" were not lowly connections. Colyngbourne makes them sound like a sinister bunch of farm animals (well, counting a rat as a farm animal) and also makes them appear to be some sort of triumvirate with, probably, more power and influence than they really had.

Catesby is a topic to himself. I don't really buy Hancock's theory given his reliance on More. If you haven't read the book, you might find it interesting. I admit to being puzzled about Catesby (whom the Commons made Speaker to honor Richard). If Hastings really was guilty of plotting treason against Richard, then, Catesby has been unfairly maligned for reporting him.

Carol

Carol earlier:
>
> "It's unclear whether Lovell was at Bosworth or conducting some important mission for Richard at the time"
>  
liz williams wrote:  

> Hmm, what kind of mission could that have been?

Carol responds:

I don't think he was involved in smuggling the "princes" out of the country. I read somewhere (Kendall?) that he may have been watching for a Tudor invasion from the east coast. Someone who has read PMK more recently may be able to help us out.

Carol

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?

Carol responds:

It was Rhys ap Thomas who let Tudor into Milford Haven. Richard's son-in-law, William Herbert, was guarding North Wales. (Audrey Williamson says that when Tudor wanted to marry Maude Herbert, his messengers were afraid to enter that part of Wales.) I thought that Lovell was in the east, not the south, but as you know, I'm geographically challenged when it comes to England! There's no indication anywhere that Lovell was disloyal to Richard. He certainly would not have sought refuge with the Yorkist exiles in Burgundy after Bosworth if he were.

Carol

--- In , Janet Ashton <jaangelfire@...> wrote:
>
> Cutting into Scotland seems a bit drastic! :-)
>  
> The main road across the Pennines from Manchester is of course the M62, a major motorway, but the most picturesque route is the A66, which runs from just north of Richmond and Middleham to Penrith - this is the one which can be tricky in winter, but it's a great drive otherwise. I'd take the A1M and then the A66 if going from York to the Lakes (or vice versa), stopping off at Middleham etc on the way.

Carol responds:

Thanks very much. I'm bookmarking this post for future reference. Which is better weatherwise, mid-April (for my birthday) or August (for a memorial service at Bosworth)? The only time I was in England was the notorious summer of 1995 (England's idea of a drought and a heat wave as memorialized in "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"). I had hauled an umbrella in my luggage but used it only once for a few minutes. Luckily, I'm used to high summer temperatures around 110 degrees F. (43 C.), so the "heat" didn't bother me.

This is all for Richard, you know, so not entirely OT!

Carol

To all:

Because of the emails today coming from so called true members being of dubious quality, they have been deleted without question. I have also now set all new members to be moderated on postings until they prove them selves, hopefully!

This should further reduce some of the risk we see being posted.

I also need to catch up with those people who have expressed a need to get an FAQ set up here, but due to some unknown reason for which I don't know, I have temporarily lost the use of my right hand and lower arm since the back of last week. It decided to swell up and cause a lot of pain and discomfort. It is improving and my doctor today insisted on a series of blood tests for arthritis, gout and whatever else they can think of.

So, I will be in touch with those people the back end of this week and we can then list what we want to start with and how we go about it.

Regards,

Neil

Moderator

Carol said:
Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she isn't.)
 
Liz replied:  Well Stratford is only an hour or so from Leicester so you could go and make rude noises at the Bard!   

I don't drive (for which, all please, give thanks!), and have managed
wonderfully well by train and bus during my trips to England and also
France.

Maria
ejbronte@...



On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:59 PM, liz williams <
ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Carol said:
> Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and
> stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not
> sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman
> itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it
> in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did
> celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave
> enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she
> isn't.)
>
> Liz replied: Well Stratford is only an hour or so from Leicester so you
> could go and make rude noises at the Bard!
>
>
>
>
>

Love it&& I would think a week or two meandering through the Yorkish areas would be fabulous. Driving on the wrong side is a little disturbing, at first, but you get used to it. I assume trains or busses also could be a way to get to and fro!


From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 2:00 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: New Member



Carol said:
Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she isn't.)

Liz replied: Well Stratford is only an hour or so from Leicester so you could go and make rude noises at the Bard!

Liz wrote:

> What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

Hilary responded:
>
> I've read it somewhere and remember thinking he must never have got over that. Must look it up when have access to books.

Carol comments:

I think there's some mistake. Richard had trusted South Wales to Rhys ap Thomas, who according to legend had promised that Tudor would only enter Wales "over my belly." Too bad he didn't say "over my dead body" because he certainly let Tudor in, having previously corresponded with him, and then joined forces with him. True, Wikipedia (yes, I know; Wikipedia!) says that Francis was guarding the south coast of Wales and that Tudor skirted his defenses. I would disregard that "information" entirely except that the article cites Rosemary Horrox's Dictionary of National Biography article on Lovell as a source. I don't have access to the DNB, but here's the link for those who do: http://www.oxforddnb.com/index/17/101017058/

Rather than being in Wales (or the east coast, as I thought), Francis Lovell *could* have been at Bosworth and managed to escape (as he apparently did at Stoke). He certainly joined with the Staffords after Bosworth as someone else mentioned, which suggests that all three fled the field after Richard fell, knowing that they could do no more for him except organize rebellions against the Tudor usurper.

I would like to know where this idea that Lovell was in Wales originally came from. It sounds like Tudor propaganda to me. Lovell's loyalty even after Richard's death is not in question but maybe his competence is?

Carol

August!  If you come in April bring an umbrella and a raincoat



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 19:39
Subject: Re: New Member

 


--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Janet Ashton wrote:
>
> Cutting into Scotland seems a bit drastic! :-)
>  
> The main road across the Pennines from Manchester is of course the M62, a major motorway, but the most picturesque route is the A66, which runs from just north of Richmond and Middleham to Penrith - this is the one which can be tricky in winter, but it's a great drive otherwise. I'd take the A1M and then the A66 if going from York to the Lakes (or vice versa), stopping off at Middleham etc on the way.

Carol responds:

Thanks very much. I'm bookmarking this post for future reference. Which is better weatherwise, mid-April (for my birthday) or August (for a memorial service at Bosworth)? The only time I was in England was the notorious summer of 1995 (England's idea of a drought and a heat wave as memorialized in "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"). I had hauled an umbrella in my luggage but used it only once for a few minutes. Luckily, I'm used to high summer temperatures around 110 degrees F. (43 C.), so the "heat" didn't bother me.

This is all for Richard, you know, so not entirely OT!

Carol

Lovell was probably at Southampton. Herbert was in SOUTH Wales (Gwent and S.Glamorgan), causing the Tydder to divert to North Wales after landing. Clwyd included some Stanley lands and the route took them into England through Shropshire and Staffordshire (not Bristol and Gloucester).
So Herbert in Wales, Lovell in Hampshire and Brackenbury in London was the first line of defence. It delayed and diverted the Tydder but ultimately it didn't defeat him.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: New Member




Liz wrote:

> What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

Hilary responded:
>
> I've read it somewhere and remember thinking he must never have got over that. Must look it up when have access to books.

Carol comments:

I think there's some mistake. Richard had trusted South Wales to Rhys ap Thomas, who according to legend had promised that Tudor would only enter Wales "over my belly." Too bad he didn't say "over my dead body" because he certainly let Tudor in, having previously corresponded with him, and then joined forces with him. True, Wikipedia (yes, I know; Wikipedia!) says that Francis was guarding the south coast of Wales and that Tudor skirted his defenses. I would disregard that "information" entirely except that the article cites Rosemary Horrox's Dictionary of National Biography article on Lovell as a source. I don't have access to the DNB, but here's the link for those who do: http://www.oxforddnb.com/index/17/101017058/

Rather than being in Wales (or the east coast, as I thought), Francis Lovell *could* have been at Bosworth and managed to escape (as he apparently did at Stoke). He certainly joined with the Staffords after Bosworth as someone else mentioned, which suggests that all three fled the field after Richard fell, knowing that they could do no more for him except organize rebellions against the Tudor usurper.

I would like to know where this idea that Lovell was in Wales originally came from. It sounds like Tudor propaganda to me. Lovell's loyalty even after Richard's death is not in question but maybe his competence is?

Carol

Whichever month you choose, the weather could let you down! Last year the UK had a heatwave in March; the year before that it was April....and then it rained for a lot of the summer. Someday we'll get a proper summer again, I suppose! the east is generally drier than the west, so perhaps if you avoid the Lakes you'll be lucky! :-)

--- On Tue, 5/3/13, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Subject: Re: New Member
To:
Date: Tuesday, 5 March, 2013, 19:39
















 













--- In , Janet Ashton wrote:

>

> Cutting into Scotland seems a bit drastic! :-)

>  

> The main road across the Pennines from Manchester is of course the M62, a major motorway, but the most picturesque route is the A66, which runs from just north of Richmond and Middleham to Penrith - this is the one which can be tricky in winter, but it's a great drive otherwise. I'd take the A1M and then the A66 if going from York to the Lakes (or vice versa), stopping off at Middleham etc on the way.



Carol responds:



Thanks very much. I'm bookmarking this post for future reference. Which is better weatherwise, mid-April (for my birthday) or August (for a memorial service at Bosworth)? The only time I was in England was the notorious summer of 1995 (England's idea of a drought and a heat wave as memorialized in "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"). I had hauled an umbrella in my luggage but used it only once for a few minutes. Luckily, I'm used to high summer temperatures around 110 degrees F. (43 C.), so the "heat" didn't bother me.



This is all for Richard, you know, so not entirely OT!



Carol

DNB says
 
"As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he was among the dead"


________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 20:37
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 
Lovell was probably at Southampton. Herbert was in SOUTH Wales (Gwent and S.Glamorgan), causing the Tydder to divert to North Wales after landing. Clwyd included some Stanley lands and the route took them into England through Shropshire and Staffordshire (not Bristol and Gloucester).
So Herbert in Wales, Lovell in Hampshire and Brackenbury in London was the first line of defence. It delayed and diverted the Tydder but ultimately it didn't defeat him.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: New Member

Liz wrote:

> What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

Hilary responded:
>
> I've read it somewhere and remember thinking he must never have got over that. Must look it up when have access to books.

Carol comments:

I think there's some mistake. Richard had trusted South Wales to Rhys ap Thomas, who according to legend had promised that Tudor would only enter Wales "over my belly." Too bad he didn't say "over my dead body" because he certainly let Tudor in, having previously corresponded with him, and then joined forces with him. True, Wikipedia (yes, I know; Wikipedia!) says that Francis was guarding the south coast of Wales and that Tudor skirted his defenses. I would disregard that "information" entirely except that the article cites Rosemary Horrox's Dictionary of National Biography article on Lovell as a source. I don't have access to the DNB, but here's the link for those who do: http://www.oxforddnb.com/index/17/101017058/

Rather than being in Wales (or the east coast, as I thought), Francis Lovell *could* have been at Bosworth and managed to escape (as he apparently did at Stoke). He certainly joined with the Staffords after Bosworth as someone else mentioned, which suggests that all three fled the field after Richard fell, knowing that they could do no more for him except organize rebellions against the Tudor usurper.

I would like to know where this idea that Lovell was in Wales originally came from. It sounds like Tudor propaganda to me. Lovell's loyalty even after Richard's death is not in question but maybe his competence is?

Carol

If you visit the church in Stratford where Shakespeare is buried...in front of the alter under a slab..they were charging last time I visited. I didnt pay....I refuse to pay to go into a church. How do they know you do not want to worship...? Eileen

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Carol said:
> Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she isn't.)
>  
> Liz replied:  Well Stratford is only an hour or so from Leicester so you could go and make rude noises at the Bard!   
>
>
>
>
>

Or you could just sit there and think derogatory thoughts....... For free!!!!

On Mar 5, 2013, at 3:30 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:



If you visit the church in Stratford where Shakespeare is buried...in front of the alter under a slab..they were charging last time I visited. I didnt pay....I refuse to pay to go into a church. How do they know you do not want to worship...? Eileen

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, liz williams wrote:
>
> Carol said:
> Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she isn't.)
> ý
> Liz replied:ý Well Stratford is only an hour or so from Leicester so you could go and make rude noises at the Bard!ý ý ý
>
>
>
>
>

Lol Pamela...I dont have anything against Shakespeare..he was a genius...but I just feel what a tragedy for Richard that such a wonderful playwright wrote a play about him. I dont suppose he ever knew some people would be fool enough to believe it as actual history...Eileen

--- In , Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> Or you could just sit there and think derogatory thoughts....... For free!!!!
>
> On Mar 5, 2013, at 3:30 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> If you visit the church in Stratford where Shakespeare is buried...in front of the alter under a slab..they were charging last time I visited. I didnt pay....I refuse to pay to go into a church. How do they know you do not want to worship...? Eileen
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, liz williams wrote:
> >
> > Carol said:
> > Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she isn't.)
> > Â
> > Liz replied: Well Stratford is only an hour or so from Leicester so you could go and make rude noises at the Bard!  Â
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

What - worship Shakespeare? 
 
Sorry Eileen, I couldnt resist it ..


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 21:30
Subject: Re: New Member

 
If you visit the church in Stratford where Shakespeare is buried...in front of the alter under a slab..they were charging last time I visited. I didnt pay....I refuse to pay to go into a church. How do they know you do not want to worship...? Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams wrote:
>
> Carol said:
> Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she isn't.)
>  
> Liz replied:  Well Stratford is only an hour or so from Leicester so you could go and make rude noises at the Bard!   
>
>
>
>
>

Thankyou - he was at Southampton then probably Leicester then definitely Colchester.
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member



DNB says

"As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he was among the dead"

________________________________
From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 20:37
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


Lovell was probably at Southampton. Herbert was in SOUTH Wales (Gwent and S.Glamorgan), causing the Tydder to divert to North Wales after landing. Clwyd included some Stanley lands and the route took them into England through Shropshire and Staffordshire (not Bristol and Gloucester).
So Herbert in Wales, Lovell in Hampshire and Brackenbury in London was the first line of defence. It delayed and diverted the Tydder but ultimately it didn't defeat him.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: New Member

Liz wrote:

> What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

Hilary responded:
>
> I've read it somewhere and remember thinking he must never have got over that. Must look it up when have access to books.

Carol comments:

I think there's some mistake. Richard had trusted South Wales to Rhys ap Thomas, who according to legend had promised that Tudor would only enter Wales "over my belly." Too bad he didn't say "over my dead body" because he certainly let Tudor in, having previously corresponded with him, and then joined forces with him. True, Wikipedia (yes, I know; Wikipedia!) says that Francis was guarding the south coast of Wales and that Tudor skirted his defenses. I would disregard that "information" entirely except that the article cites Rosemary Horrox's Dictionary of National Biography article on Lovell as a source. I don't have access to the DNB, but here's the link for those who do: http://www.oxforddnb.com/index/17/101017058/

Rather than being in Wales (or the east coast, as I thought), Francis Lovell *could* have been at Bosworth and managed to escape (as he apparently did at Stoke). He certainly joined with the Staffords after Bosworth as someone else mentioned, which suggests that all three fled the field after Richard fell, knowing that they could do no more for him except organize rebellions against the Tudor usurper.

I would like to know where this idea that Lovell was in Wales originally came from. It sounds like Tudor propaganda to me. Lovell's loyalty even after Richard's death is not in question but maybe his competence is?

Carol

I worded that badly didnt !? Eileen
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> What - worship Shakespeare? 
>  
> Sorry Eileen, I couldnt resist it ..
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 21:30
> Subject: Re: New Member
>
>  
> If you visit the church in Stratford where Shakespeare is buried...in front of the alter under a slab..they were charging last time I visited. I didnt pay....I refuse to pay to go into a church. How do they know you do not want to worship...? Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams wrote:
> >
> > Carol said:
> > Thanks very much. It sounds as if I'd better skip the Lake District and stay with Ricardian sites like York, Middleham, and, yes, Leicester. Not sure what else to include. I guess I'll check the Sharon Kay Penman itinerary (though there's no way we can afford that even if she repeats it in 2014). One thing is certain, neither my sister nor I (even if she did celebrate her fiftieth birthday by parachuting from a plane) is brave enough to drive on the left side of the road! (Or, at least, I hope she isn't.)
> >  
> > Liz replied:  Well Stratford is only an hour or so from Leicester so you could go and make rude noises at the Bard!   
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Carol,
 
I have read Hancock but wasn't actually thinking of him when I wrote this about Catesby, Clarence and Hastings. I was thinking more that Richard probably trusted him through Clarence. If you look at the records for round here - Warks, Northants, etc you keep bumping into Catesby, And there is another connection with the Butlers of Aston le Walls who were descended from the Earls of Ormond, the Desmonds and married into the Talbots. All very convoluted and worthy of more research. And all within a few miles of one another. It's logical that Catesby acted for Clarence because Clarence operated out of Warwick but Hastings - (apart from his wife being sister to Richard Neville) I'm not quite sure why. Don't know - but it is, as you say, a topic in itself.  H
 


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 18:35
Subject: Re: New Member

 

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Carol,
>  
> Rarely dare I nit pick with you so I apologise in advance. Catesby had been around for quite a time; he was working for the Butlers, Hastings and Clarence in the 1470s, the latter two post 1475. Daddy Catesby worked for the Butlers, too, as you know, which could mean he knew Edward IV depending on how much you believe about the pre-contract. I would agree that Catesby junior was up and coming in the sense that this seems to be the first time he worked directly for a monarch, but the Catesbys had been dabbling in the upper eschelons of Warks, Northants and Glos for nigh on twenty years. I did find it fascinating that Catesby junior was working for both Hastings and Clarence in the year of Clarence's demise. Did he pass on anything about the pre-contract? And is it because he worked for Clarence that Richard took him on? (I found this out from a list of Warwickshire retainers to the gentry in the Warks Record Office - Catesby is listed as a servant
to both Hastings and Clarence in 1478).  H

Carol responds:

Yes, I've read Peter Hancock's "Richard III and the Murder in the Tower," which gives all of Catesby's connections (and links him to the precontract, making him seem more important than Stillington and very eager for Hastings's lands). I was trying to keep my post simple (I have a tendency, as you know, to go off in the opposite direction). The point was simply that "the Cat, the Rat, and Lovell our dog" were not lowly connections. Colyngbourne makes them sound like a sinister bunch of farm animals (well, counting a rat as a farm animal) and also makes them appear to be some sort of triumvirate with, probably, more power and influence than they really had.

Catesby is a topic to himself. I don't really buy Hancock's theory given his reliance on More. If you haven't read the book, you might find it interesting. I admit to being puzzled about Catesby (whom the Commons made Speaker to honor Richard). If Hastings really was guilty of plotting treason against Richard, then, Catesby has been unfairly maligned for reporting him.

Carol

 Kendall, Ross and Baldwin all have Lovell in Southampton (but don't quote sources), where HT was expected to land. I don't think there was any question of disloyalty, just bad luck.


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 19:09
Subject: Re: New Member

 

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Wasn't he supposed to be looking after the fleet down south (says she without books who must work) and hasn't he been mooted as being responsible for letting Tudor creep into Milford Haven?

Carol responds:

It was Rhys ap Thomas who let Tudor into Milford Haven. Richard's son-in-law, William Herbert, was guarding North Wales. (Audrey Williamson says that when Tudor wanted to marry Maude Herbert, his messengers were afraid to enter that part of Wales.) I thought that Lovell was in the east, not the south, but as you know, I'm geographically challenged when it comes to England! There's no indication anywhere that Lovell was disloyal to Richard. He certainly would not have sought refuge with the Yorkist exiles in Burgundy after Bosworth if he were.

Carol

To be honest, in  US terms the distance from the Lakes to Yorkshire is not far - I used to work in Kendal (in the lakes) and Redcar (which is N Yorks) in one day - allowing a couple of hours to cross the Pennines. Shall we say it's not Dallas to LA! As for the weather, who knows, but as one who lived in Aus for 10 years at the same temperatures as you, I think you'll find it mild. But there is a distinct lack of air con in hotels, etc because it is so rarely needed.


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 19:39
Subject: Re: New Member

 



--- In , Janet Ashton wrote:
>
> Cutting into Scotland seems a bit drastic! :-)
>  
> The main road across the Pennines from Manchester is of course the M62, a major motorway, but the most picturesque route is the A66, which runs from just north of Richmond and Middleham to Penrith - this is the one which can be tricky in winter, but it's a great drive otherwise. I'd take the A1M and then the A66 if going from York to the Lakes (or vice versa), stopping off at Middleham etc on the way.

Carol responds:

Thanks very much. I'm bookmarking this post for future reference. Which is better weatherwise, mid-April (for my birthday) or August (for a memorial service at Bosworth)? The only time I was in England was the notorious summer of 1995 (England's idea of a drought and a heat wave as memorialized in "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"). I had hauled an umbrella in my luggage but used it only once for a few minutes. Luckily, I'm used to high summer temperatures around 110 degrees F. (43 C.), so the "heat" didn't bother me.

This is all for Richard, you know, so not entirely OT!

Carol

I've replied in another post, Lovell was in Southampton - on the coast but miles from Wales.



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 20:21
Subject: Re: New Member

 


Liz wrote:

> What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

Hilary responded:
>
> I've read it somewhere and remember thinking he must never have got over that. Must look it up when have access to books.

Carol comments:

I think there's some mistake. Richard had trusted South Wales to Rhys ap Thomas, who according to legend had promised that Tudor would only enter Wales "over my belly." Too bad he didn't say "over my dead body" because he certainly let Tudor in, having previously corresponded with him, and then joined forces with him. True, Wikipedia (yes, I know; Wikipedia!) says that Francis was guarding the south coast of Wales and that Tudor skirted his defenses. I would disregard that "information" entirely except that the article cites Rosemary Horrox's Dictionary of National Biography article on Lovell as a source. I don't have access to the DNB, but here's the link for those who do: http://www.oxforddnb.com/index/17/101017058/

Rather than being in Wales (or the east coast, as I thought), Francis Lovell *could* have been at Bosworth and managed to escape (as he apparently did at Stoke). He certainly joined with the Staffords after Bosworth as someone else mentioned, which suggests that all three fled the field after Richard fell, knowing that they could do no more for him except organize rebellions against the Tudor usurper.

I would like to know where this idea that Lovell was in Wales originally came from. It sounds like Tudor propaganda to me. Lovell's loyalty even after Richard's death is not in question but maybe his competence is?

Carol

Yes that's right - over the border near Oswestry, I think. Much cleverer than trying to go south over the Severn, which had been the undoing of Margaret of Anjou trying to go the other way in 1471.



________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 20:37
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 

Lovell was probably at Southampton. Herbert was in SOUTH Wales (Gwent and S.Glamorgan), causing the Tydder to divert to North Wales after landing. Clwyd included some Stanley lands and the route took them into England through Shropshire and Staffordshire (not Bristol and Gloucester).
So Herbert in Wales, Lovell in Hampshire and Brackenbury in London was the first line of defence. It delayed and diverted the Tydder but ultimately it didn't defeat him.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: New Member

Liz wrote:

> What? Our Francis let Tudor in? Oh no.

Hilary responded:
>
> I've read it somewhere and remember thinking he must never have got over that. Must look it up when have access to books.

Carol comments:

I think there's some mistake. Richard had trusted South Wales to Rhys ap Thomas, who according to legend had promised that Tudor would only enter Wales "over my belly." Too bad he didn't say "over my dead body" because he certainly let Tudor in, having previously corresponded with him, and then joined forces with him. True, Wikipedia (yes, I know; Wikipedia!) says that Francis was guarding the south coast of Wales and that Tudor skirted his defenses. I would disregard that "information" entirely except that the article cites Rosemary Horrox's Dictionary of National Biography article on Lovell as a source. I don't have access to the DNB, but here's the link for those who do: http://www.oxforddnb.com/index/17/101017058/

Rather than being in Wales (or the east coast, as I thought), Francis Lovell *could* have been at Bosworth and managed to escape (as he apparently did at Stoke). He certainly joined with the Staffords after Bosworth as someone else mentioned, which suggests that all three fled the field after Richard fell, knowing that they could do no more for him except organize rebellions against the Tudor usurper.

I would like to know where this idea that Lovell was in Wales originally came from. It sounds like Tudor propaganda to me. Lovell's loyalty even after Richard's death is not in question but maybe his competence is?

Carol

Carol earlier:

> > Essentially, I'm trying to figure out whether Richard would have been familiar with Wordsworth's Lake District.

Claire responded:

> Almost certainly. He spent a lot of time at Penrith which is only about three miles from the inland edge of the Lake District, and it would be surprising if he never rode west while he was there.

Carol responds:

Thanks very much. I'll make it a point to see Penrith!

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: New Member

> Thanks very much. I'll make it a point to see Penrith!

You have to visit - and stay at, if it lets rooms which I don't know - the
Gloucester Arms in Penrith, which used to be a private house where Richard
stayed when the castle had builders in, and which has his arms on the front.

And Penrith Castle is ruined but there's quite a lot of it left, and there's
a guard-room on the wall of which somebody apparently scratched a pledge of
allegiance to Richard - the 15th C equivalent of graffitoing the name of
your favourite band I think.

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> I've replied in another post, Lovell was in Southampton - on the coast but miles from Wales.

Carol responds:

Thanks. I was sure he wasn't in Wales. Now to find a map of England and Wales and brush up on my geography . . . .

Carol

liz williams wrote:
>
> DNB says
>  
> "As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he was among the dead"

Carol responds:

Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on some sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port, or why would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?

And Horrox seems to think that Lovell probably joined Richard at Bosworth. I guess he was just lucky (with regard to himself) but unlucky with regard to the fate of his friend and king.

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: New Member


> Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through
Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on some
sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port, or why
would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?

It's been a settlement since the Stone Age and a major port since the
Romans. It's a traditional point of arrival and departure for the armed
forces - perhaps it has especially suitable beaches for large landings. In
the Victorian era there was a huge military hospital there, a quarter of a
mile long and so big it had its own mini port, where my great great uncle
William Shirran ended up after getitng his knee shot up in the Second
Anglo-Afghan Ware.

It's used now of course as a  major point of departure for cruise liners


From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 2:09
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 
From: justcarol67
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: New Member

> Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through
Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on some
sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port, or why
would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?

It's been a settlement since the Stone Age and a major port since the
Romans. It's a traditional point of arrival and departure for the armed
forces - perhaps it has especially suitable beaches for large landings. In
the Victorian era there was a huge military hospital there, a quarter of a
mile long and so big it had its own mini port, where my great great uncle
William Shirran ended up after getitng his knee shot up in the Second
Anglo-Afghan Ware.

Hi Carol,
Southampton is and was a major port. Portsmouth the later headquarters of the navy is right next door.


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 1:23
Subject: Re: New Member

 

liz williams wrote:
>
> DNB says
>  
> "As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he was among the dead"

Carol responds:

Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on some sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port, or why would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?

And Horrox seems to think that Lovell probably joined Richard at Bosworth. I guess he was just lucky (with regard to himself) but unlucky with regard to the fate of his friend and king.

Carol

Sorry Carol/AJ, nothing about Lovell but have cut and pasted this for you from the NA website. I think Marie does go to Kew, so she probably looked at it free there. Otherwise it would seem you have to order and pay. I'll get a quote



Transcripts of Harleian MSS 433 and 1878; and of Additional MSS 4603, 4616, 4617…
Details
Browse by hierarchy
Browse by reference
Start new search
Print






Ordering and viewing options



This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.
Request a quotation for a copy to be digitised or printed and sent to you.


--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> liz williams wrote:
> >
> > DNB says
> >  
> > "As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he was among the dead"
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on some sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port, or why would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?
>
> And Horrox seems to think that Lovell probably joined Richard at Bosworth. I guess he was just lucky (with regard to himself) but unlucky with regard to the fate of his friend and king.
>
> Carol
>

Thank you. Will be interested in the quote. Some of the archives have
been quite reasonable, to the extent that I actually have a few microfilms
& at least one CD.

A J

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:10 AM, hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sorry Carol/AJ, nothing about Lovell but have cut and pasted this for you
> from the NA website. I think Marie does go to Kew, so she probably looked
> at it free there. Otherwise it would seem you have to order and pay. I'll
> get a quote
>
> Transcripts of Harleian MSS 433 and 1878; and of Additional MSS 4603,
> 4616, 4617ý
> Details
> Browse by hierarchy
> Browse by reference
> Start new search
> Print
>
> Ordering and viewing options
>
> This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.
> Request a quotation for a copy to be digitised or printed and sent to you.
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
> >
> > liz williams wrote:
> > >
> > > DNB says
> > >
> > > "As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell
> was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford
> Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at
> Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle
> accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he
> was among the dead"
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through
> Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on
> some sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port,
> or why would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?
> >
> > And Horrox seems to think that Lovell probably joined Richard at
> Bosworth. I guess he was just lucky (with regard to himself) but unlucky
> with regard to the fate of his friend and king.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
>
>

Will get back to you when I get one. It usually takes a few days. Glad to help, I'm interested myself. Yes I have a few too, and as you say, they're usually very reasonable.  H



________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 14:14
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

Thank you.  Will be interested in the quote.  Some of the archives have
been quite reasonable, to the extent that I actually have a few microfilms
& at least one CD.

A J

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:10 AM, hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sorry Carol/AJ, nothing about Lovell but have cut and pasted this for you
> from the NA website. I think Marie does go to Kew, so she probably looked
> at it free there. Otherwise it would seem you have to order and pay. I'll
> get a quote
>
> Transcripts of Harleian MSS 433 and 1878; and of Additional MSS 4603,
> 4616, 4617&
> Details
> Browse by hierarchy
> Browse by reference
> Start new search
> Print
>
> Ordering and viewing options
>
> This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.
> Request a quotation for a copy to be digitised or printed and sent to you.
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
> >
> > liz williams wrote:
> > >
> > > DNB says
> > >
> > > "As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell
> was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford
> Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at
> Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle
> accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he
> was among the dead"
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through
> Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on
> some sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port,
> or why would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?
> >
> > And Horrox seems to think that Lovell probably joined Richard at
> Bosworth. I guess he was just lucky (with regard to himself) but unlucky
> with regard to the fate of his friend and king.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I wonder why [Once things had 'Cooled Down' after the battle] Lovell could not have 'Sued for Pardon', It seems many did [Successfully] throughout the period.

Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 10:17
>Subject: Re: Re: New Member
>
>
> 
>Hi Carol,
>Southampton is and was a major port. Portsmouth the later headquarters of the navy is right next door.
>
>
>________________________________
>From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 1:23
>Subject: Re: New Member
>
> 
>
>liz williams wrote:
>>
>> DNB says
>>  
>> "As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he was among the dead"
>
>Carol responds:
>
>Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on some sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port, or why would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?
>
>And Horrox seems to think that Lovell probably joined Richard at Bosworth. I guess he was just lucky (with regard to himself) but unlucky with regard to the fate of his friend and king.
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Arthurian
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


> I wonder why [Once things had 'Cooled Down' after the battle] Lovell could
> not have 'Sued for Pardon', It seems many did [Successfully] throughout
> the period.

Because he had no intention of making peace - he fought at the battle of
Stoke two years later.

"Claire M Jordan" wrote:

> > Thanks very much. I'll make it a point to see Penrith!
>
> You have to visit - and stay at, if it lets rooms which I don't know - the Gloucester Arms in Penrith, which used to be a private house where Richard stayed when the castle had builders in, and which has his arms on the front.
>
> And Penrith Castle is ruined but there's quite a lot of it left, and there's a guard-room on the wall of which somebody apparently scratched a pledge of allegiance to Richard - the 15th C equivalent of graffitoing the name of your favourite band I think.

Carol responds:

Lovely. I'll plan on that. Of course, this trip is only in the early planning stages (summer 2014), so anything could happen between then and now. Knock on wood that it goes through.

Carol

The Market Town of Skipton, with both it's Church & Castle have Strong Associations.

There is a Monumental Brass in the Church of the Era.

Try the Fish & Chips, Yorkshire's best. Probably not available then 1460/80 as it is too far inland.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 23:32
>Subject: Re: New Member
>
>
> 
>
>Carol earlier:
>
>> > Essentially, I'm trying to figure out whether Richard would have been familiar with Wordsworth's Lake District.
>
>Claire responded:
>
>> Almost certainly. He spent a lot of time at Penrith which is only about three miles from the inland edge of the Lake District, and it would be surprising if he never rode west while he was there.
>
>Carol responds:
>
>Thanks very much. I'll make it a point to see Penrith!
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for that,

So he had the 'Loyalty of a Dogge.' 

If it was him 'Bricked up' it must have been after Stoke.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 15:28
>Subject: Re: Re: New Member
>
>
> 
>From: Arthurian
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 3:05 PM
>Subject: Re: Re: New Member
>
>> I wonder why [Once things had 'Cooled Down' after the battle] Lovell could
>> not have 'Sued for Pardon', It seems many did [Successfully] throughout
>> the period.
>
>Because he had no intention of making peace - he fought at the battle of
>Stoke two years later.
>
>
>
>
>

No mention seems made of the Cinque Ports [Or the 'Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports' a title long preceding the Wars of the Roses.

Wikipedia is weak of dates Lord Wardens for this period.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 9:35
>Subject: Re: Re: New Member
>
>
> 
>It's used now of course as a  major point of departure for cruise liners
>
>From: Claire M Jordan whitehound@...>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 2:09
>Subject: Re: Re: New Member
>
> 
>From: justcarol67
>To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
>Subject: Re: New Member
>
>> Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through
>Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on some
>sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port, or why
>would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?
>
>It's been a settlement since the Stone Age and a major port since the
>Romans. It's a traditional point of arrival and departure for the armed
>forces - perhaps it has especially suitable beaches for large landings. In
>the Victorian era there was a huge military hospital there, a quarter of a
>mile long and so big it had its own mini port, where my great great uncle
>William Shirran ended up after getitng his knee shot up in the Second
>Anglo-Afghan Ware.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

And in Middleham you can stay more or less underneath the castle, in the Black Swan Inn, which is ancient and very atmospheric: -
http://www.middlehamonline.com/Middleham%20Castle.htm.%c2%a0
It's an evocative little town altogether; the horses all go by the windows in the morning, on their way out to  exercise on the gallops. 

--- On Wed, 6/3/13, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Subject: Re: New Member
To:
Date: Wednesday, 6 March, 2013, 15:49
















 









"Claire M Jordan" wrote:



> > Thanks very much. I'll make it a point to see Penrith!

>

> You have to visit - and stay at, if it lets rooms which I don't know - the Gloucester Arms in Penrith, which used to be a private house where Richard stayed when the castle had builders in, and which has his arms on the front.

>

> And Penrith Castle is ruined but there's quite a lot of it left, and there's a guard-room on the wall of which somebody apparently scratched a pledge of allegiance to Richard - the 15th C equivalent of graffitoing the name of your favourite band I think.



Carol responds:



Lovely. I'll plan on that. Of course, this trip is only in the early planning stages (summer 2014), so anything could happen between then and now. Knock on wood that it goes through.



Carol

Skipton Castle was giving people free entry, to celebrate its Richard connection, according to an article in a paper I found online. Sadly, tye offer may have expired by the time Carol visits in 2014! 

--- On Wed, 6/3/13, Arthurian <lancastrian@...> wrote:

From: Arthurian <lancastrian@...>
Subject: Re: Re: New Member
To: "" <>
Date: Wednesday, 6 March, 2013, 16:21
















 









The Market Town of Skipton, with both it's Church & Castle have Strong Associations.



There is a Monumental Brass in the Church of the Era.



Try the Fish & Chips, Yorkshire's best. Probably not available then 1460/80 as it is too far inland.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Arthur.



>________________________________

> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>

>To:

>Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 23:32

>Subject: Re: New Member

>

>

> 

>

>Carol earlier:

>

>> > Essentially, I'm trying to figure out whether Richard would have been familiar with Wordsworth's Lake District.

>

>Claire responded:

>

>> Almost certainly. He spent a lot of time at Penrith which is only about three miles from the inland edge of the Lake District, and it would be surprising if he never rode west while he was there.

>

>Carol responds:

>

>Thanks very much. I'll make it a point to see Penrith!

>

>Carol

>

>

>

>

>

From: Arthurian
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


> No mention seems made of the Cinque Ports [Or the 'Lord Warden of the
> Cinque Ports' a title long preceding the Wars of the Roses.

> Wikipedia is weak of dates Lord Wardens for this period.

Well, part of my family comes from Ospringe, just outside Faversham, and I
lived there for several years. I suspect Favershamm at least, was already
problematic by Richard's day. Over the centuries the land was built up by
silt and the "port" ended up further and further inland. By the time I was
living there in the 1980s the town was miles inland, accessible to the sea
only by a narrow creek. They actually kept building ships there until the
1920s, but had to give it up because the creek was now so narrow that they
had to launch ships sideways.

Richard had quite a few dealings with Southampton. Yes it was a port and he had to make one or two declarations about piracy. A bit like Liz I you could 'pirate' enemy i.e. French ships and bring back the booty, but you couldn't touch the Burgundians or the Hansa: that was piracy and you paid the penalty.



________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 9:35
Subject: Re: Re: New Member


 

It's used now of course as a  major point of departure for cruise liners

From: Claire M Jordan mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013, 2:09
Subject: Re: Re: New Member

 
From: justcarol67
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: New Member

> Thanks, Liz. Okay, so Lovell can't be blamed for Henry getting through
Wales, nor can Herbert. I looked up Southampton, which appears to be on some
sort of inlet rather than directly on the coast. Was it a major port, or why
would Richard think that Tudor might try to land there?

It's been a settlement since the Stone Age and a major port since the
Romans. It's a traditional point of arrival and departure for the armed
forces - perhaps it has especially suitable beaches for large landings. In
the Victorian era there was a huge military hospital there, a quarter of a
mile long and so big it had its own mini port, where my great great uncle
William Shirran ended up after getitng his knee shot up in the Second
Anglo-Afghan Ware.

Hi,

I did. It´s a gorgeous piece of work. It makes the past come alive again. I´ve also found the attributes of the characters amazing... along with the two biographies I read at the same time it helped to complete my research because it provided many details on common daily life.

Marion Z

--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> The Sunne In Splendour is pretty rare, I hear, don't think anyone here will have read it :(
>
> --- In , June Batchelor <junebatchelor@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >  
> > I'm  June,  a  new  member,  and  i'm  really  looking  forward  to  talking  about   Richard  111,  there  are   lots  of  messages  to  read,  so  i  will  come   back  to  them,  but  for  now  i  would  love  to  hear  from  anyone  who  has  read  a  wonderful  book  by---Sharon  Penman---The  Sun In  Spendour,  for  me  it's  the  very  best  book  about  Richard ,  he  has  been  a  hero  of  mine  since  the  197'0's,  then  i  read  books  by  Rosemary  Hawley  Jarmon  and  Rhoda  Edwards.
> >  
> >  
> > June 
> >
> >
> >
>

Skipton for Ricardians, Betty's Tearoom in Harrogate for 'Fat Yorkshire Rascals' & Skipton If You Like Gardens [Harlow Carr] 
 
Kind Regards,
 
Arthur.



>________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 22:40
>Subject: Re: Re: New Member
>
>
> 
>To be honest, in  US terms the distance from the Lakes to Yorkshire is not far - I used to work in Kendal (in the lakes) and Redcar (which is N Yorks) in one day - allowing a couple of hours to cross the Pennines. Shall we say it's not Dallas to LA! As for the weather, who knows, but as one who lived in Aus for 10 years at the same temperatures as you, I think you'll find it mild. But there is a distinct lack of air con in hotels, etc because it is so rarely needed.
>
>
>________________________________
>From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, 5 March 2013, 19:39
>Subject: Re: New Member
>
> 
>
>
>--- In , Janet Ashton wrote:
>>
>> Cutting into Scotland seems a bit drastic! :-)
>>  
>> The main road across the Pennines from Manchester is of course the M62, a major motorway, but the most picturesque route is the A66, which runs from just north of Richmond and Middleham to Penrith - this is the one which can be tricky in winter, but it's a great drive otherwise. I'd take the A1M and then the A66 if going from York to the Lakes (or vice versa), stopping off at Middleham etc on the way.
>
>Carol responds:
>
>Thanks very much. I'm bookmarking this post for future reference. Which is better weatherwise, mid-April (for my birthday) or August (for a memorial service at Bosworth)? The only time I was in England was the notorious summer of 1995 (England's idea of a drought and a heat wave as memorialized in "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"). I had hauled an umbrella in my luggage but used it only once for a few minutes. Luckily, I'm used to high summer temperatures around 110 degrees F. (43 C.), so the "heat" didn't bother me.
>
>This is all for Richard, you know, so not entirely OT!
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>