Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Families

I know I have talked about the possible relationship between Walter Tirel and Sir James Tyrrell (400 years being time to change a spelling) BUT:
Was our Catesby related to the Gunpowder Plotter?
----- Original Message -----
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: Duke of Buckingham


--- In , "brunhild613"
<brunhild@n...> wrote:
>

> I gather there is no reference to Buck being at the council meeting
> which brought Hastings' career to a sudden end. Given his
connection
> to Jane Shore who was connected to Dorset and EW, and Buck's
> connection to them through his wife, I am wondering if he was
> involved in this too - maybe even getting rid of potential
> opposition to his own later attempt on the throne.
>

I've just done a little quick research on this. I've managed to check
the contemporary Cely & Stallworthe letters, Croyland, Fabyan, Vergil
and More. Another I would have liked to check is Mancini, but
couldn't find.

It is true that most of these do not mention Buckingham, but Fabyan
and Vergil do both list him as being present.

Certainly Catesby was heavily implicated. He had a long-standing
relationship with Hastings, and it seems to have been his information
which condemned him. Actually, Catesby's lands were in
Leicestershire, which was Hastings' base county, and he managed
Hastings' affairs there. After Hastings' death he became the county's
major power.
Catesby's wife, Margaret Zouche, was the daughter of Margaret
Beaufort's half-sister Elizabeth St John, and Catesby also had a long-
standing professional relationship with Stanley. In December of 1483
Stanley granted him an annuity "for his good will and counsel past
and to come". You've probably read how in his will Catesby addressed
Lord Stanley almost hysterically, apparently hoping up to the last
moment that he would do something to save him. Stanley, of course,
was one of those arrested at the Tower, but was remarkably quickly
restored to favour. Did Catesby speak for him, perhaps? Certainly, he
was not exactly an old friend of Richard's.
I seem to recall that Catesby transferred his services from Hastings
to Buckingham (who of course had big interests in Staffordshire and
Warwickshire), so that he may have been informing to Richard via
Buckingham; certainly his will suggests a close tie there too. That
would certainly make for a very interesting situation. The
Stallworthe letter says all Hastings' men became Buckingham's men.
Whether or not that was the case, it indicates the way people saw the
issue at the time.

Buckingham may have been after the throne, or perhaps like Catesby
just trying to bring down a rival midlands power-base.

However, what I find interesting about Catesby's will is that,
although it was very concerned to buy his way into heaven by, for
instance, putting right his past land acquisition misdeeds,
apologising to his wife for not always being nice to her, making
bequest to Buckingham's widow,... There is NO mention of Hastings. So
did he feel he had done nothing wrong there?

Marie





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According to the Dictionary of National Biography, Robert Catesby was
sixth in descent from Sir William Catesby. Also, one can trace the
descent at www.gunpowder-plot.org.

Hope this helps.

kellie


--- In , "Stephen LARK"
<smlark@i...> wrote:
> I know I have talked about the possible relationship between Walter
Tirel and Sir James Tyrrell (400 years being time to change a
spelling) BUT:
> Was our Catesby related to the Gunpowder Plotter?

--- In , "meenivettle"
<meenivettle@y...> wrote:
> According to the Dictionary of National Biography, Robert Catesby
was
> sixth in descent from Sir William Catesby. Also, one can trace the
> descent at www.gunpowder-plot.org.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> kellie
>

I've just tried that site, and all I get is a punk rock group.

I've also heard that Robert was direct descendant of William, and I
always believed this to be the case until my in-laws took me to Sir
Robert's Warwickshire seat last summer. I think the guide there says
the Leicestershire Catesby's were a junior branch of the family,
which originated in Warwickshire.

However, looking at my copy of Antonia Frazer's Gunpowder Plot (which
I've never read), I see that Robert owned Ashby St Ledgers in
Northants. And that was indeed one of Sir William Catesby's manors.
Indeed, in his will he requested "to be buried in the church of St
Leger in Ashby".

Sir william certainly left two sons (the elder was named George).

So perhaps the "Ayes" have it after all.

Marie