Gipping Hall tradition
Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 02:02:19
Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
standing."
Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
A J
Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
standing."
Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
A J
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 02:25:49
From: A J Hibbard
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:02 AM
Subject: Gipping Hall tradition
> Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
Magazine, 11 Mar 1973;
Thanks, this is just what I wanted.
> Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
standing."
So it can be traced back definitely to Mrs Drewe's grandmother's mother in
law, and she was the daughter of soembody who was a child or youth in the
1780s, so she was probably born 1790-1800. So we know the story goes back
at least 200 years, but the family believe it to be much older than that.
> Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
Actually lived, not just visited. Are there any gaps in EW's itinerary?
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:02 AM
Subject: Gipping Hall tradition
> Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
Magazine, 11 Mar 1973;
Thanks, this is just what I wanted.
> Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
standing."
So it can be traced back definitely to Mrs Drewe's grandmother's mother in
law, and she was the daughter of soembody who was a child or youth in the
1780s, so she was probably born 1790-1800. So we know the story goes back
at least 200 years, but the family believe it to be much older than that.
> Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
Actually lived, not just visited. Are there any gaps in EW's itinerary?
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 10:45:50
If I remember rightly, and it is a long time since I read Audrey Williamson's book, didn't she also say that the Tyrell family had never spoken up about the Princes being at Gipping because they thought that it could be evidence that James Tyrrell had in fact killed the Princes.This was because of his so called confession. They were not aware that it could be evidence that they were on their way to Burgundy.
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote
>
> Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
> story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
> French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> standing."
>
> Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
>
> A J
>
>
>
>
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote
>
> Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
> story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
> French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> standing."
>
> Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
>
> A J
>
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 11:09:15
Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
family story --
Janet <forevere@...> wrote:
Many years ago (maybe 14 or 15) when I was Chapter Coordinator for
the American Branch, I received a letter from a person in Bermuda who
told about a story repeated through the generations in their family.
Evidently they were descended from the Tyrell family and the story
goes that the Princes were to be taken from the Tower and hidden in
thier home on the way to another location. Apparently Elizabeth
Woodville was in on this scheme. I believe this actually took place
according to this family's legend.
Several years and a couple of moves later and I cannot find the
letter - isn't that always the way -- but I remember being so
intrigued with the possibilities.
Perhaps that Bermuda person is still interested in, and maybe even
a member of, the Society and can fill us in on this story. I do believe
that I have heard or read of this tale in my years as a Ricardian.
This could account for the interest of Henry VII in James Tyrell even
many years after Henry was crowned King.
L.M.L.,
Janet
A J
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:45 AM, ricard1an <maryfriend@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> If I remember rightly, and it is a long time since I read Audrey
> Williamson's book, didn't she also say that the Tyrell family had never
> spoken up about the Princes being at Gipping because they thought that it
> could be evidence that James Tyrrell had in fact killed the Princes.This
> was because of his so called confession. They were not aware that it could
> be evidence that they were on their way to Burgundy.
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote
>
> >
> > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard
> the
> > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the
> original
> > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > standing."
> >
> > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
family story --
Janet <forevere@...> wrote:
Many years ago (maybe 14 or 15) when I was Chapter Coordinator for
the American Branch, I received a letter from a person in Bermuda who
told about a story repeated through the generations in their family.
Evidently they were descended from the Tyrell family and the story
goes that the Princes were to be taken from the Tower and hidden in
thier home on the way to another location. Apparently Elizabeth
Woodville was in on this scheme. I believe this actually took place
according to this family's legend.
Several years and a couple of moves later and I cannot find the
letter - isn't that always the way -- but I remember being so
intrigued with the possibilities.
Perhaps that Bermuda person is still interested in, and maybe even
a member of, the Society and can fill us in on this story. I do believe
that I have heard or read of this tale in my years as a Ricardian.
This could account for the interest of Henry VII in James Tyrell even
many years after Henry was crowned King.
L.M.L.,
Janet
A J
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:45 AM, ricard1an <maryfriend@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> If I remember rightly, and it is a long time since I read Audrey
> Williamson's book, didn't she also say that the Tyrell family had never
> spoken up about the Princes being at Gipping because they thought that it
> could be evidence that James Tyrrell had in fact killed the Princes.This
> was because of his so called confession. They were not aware that it could
> be evidence that they were on their way to Burgundy.
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote
>
> >
> > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard
> the
> > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the
> original
> > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > standing."
> >
> > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 11:17:25
From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
> Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
> from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
> family story --
Ah, right! So this was probably not them being moved to the continent -
since the pattern of secret letters and payments suggests that that happened
12-18 months later - but them being taken north(?) to get them away from the
Tower.
I have this theory, totally unproveable, that the story put about as
Tyrrell's confession was a garbled account of a real sequence of events in
which somebody, probably Buckingham, tried to get access to the boys,
Brackenbury suspected their motives and sent a message to Richard on his
progress, and Richard sent Tyrrell to move the boys to a place of greater
safety.
One option would be to see if I can get a question posted in the "Coffee
Break" section of the Daily Mail, asking for descendants of the Tyrrells who
may remember this story. Coffee Break is good at uncovering that sort of
information and getting people to write in saying "Oh yes, I remember such
and such".
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
> Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
> from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
> family story --
Ah, right! So this was probably not them being moved to the continent -
since the pattern of secret letters and payments suggests that that happened
12-18 months later - but them being taken north(?) to get them away from the
Tower.
I have this theory, totally unproveable, that the story put about as
Tyrrell's confession was a garbled account of a real sequence of events in
which somebody, probably Buckingham, tried to get access to the boys,
Brackenbury suspected their motives and sent a message to Richard on his
progress, and Richard sent Tyrrell to move the boys to a place of greater
safety.
One option would be to see if I can get a question posted in the "Coffee
Break" section of the Daily Mail, asking for descendants of the Tyrrells who
may remember this story. Coffee Break is good at uncovering that sort of
information and getting people to write in saying "Oh yes, I remember such
and such".
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 11:21:17
That's a great idea. Or maybe Genealogy's Most Wanted (on the internet, if
it's still around) - it's how I found a cousin I never knew I had, the
other half of the family my mother only thought might exist!
A J
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:28 AM, Claire M Jordan
<whitehound@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> <snip>
> One option would be to see if I can get a question posted in the "Coffee
> Break" section of the Daily Mail, asking for descendants of the Tyrrells
> who
> may remember this story. Coffee Break is good at uncovering that sort of
> information and getting people to write in saying "Oh yes, I remember such
> and such".
>
>
>
it's still around) - it's how I found a cousin I never knew I had, the
other half of the family my mother only thought might exist!
A J
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:28 AM, Claire M Jordan
<whitehound@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> <snip>
> One option would be to see if I can get a question posted in the "Coffee
> Break" section of the Daily Mail, asking for descendants of the Tyrrells
> who
> may remember this story. Coffee Break is good at uncovering that sort of
> information and getting people to write in saying "Oh yes, I remember such
> and such".
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 13:18:24
That sounds intriguing, I wonder if she is still a member of the Forum?
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
> from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
> family story --
>
> Janet <forevere@> wrote:
>
> Many years ago (maybe 14 or 15) when I was Chapter Coordinator for
>
> the American Branch, I received a letter from a person in Bermuda who
>
> told about a story repeated through the generations in their family.
>
> Evidently they were descended from the Tyrell family and the story
>
> goes that the Princes were to be taken from the Tower and hidden in
>
> thier home on the way to another location. Apparently Elizabeth
>
> Woodville was in on this scheme. I believe this actually took place
>
> according to this family's legend.
>
> Several years and a couple of moves later and I cannot find the
>
> letter - isn't that always the way -- but I remember being so
>
> intrigued with the possibilities.
>
> Perhaps that Bermuda person is still interested in, and maybe even
>
> a member of, the Society and can fill us in on this story. I do believe
>
> that I have heard or read of this tale in my years as a Ricardian.
>
> This could account for the interest of Henry VII in James Tyrell even
>
> many years after Henry was crowned King.
>
>
> L.M.L.,
>
> Janet
>
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:45 AM, ricard1an <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > If I remember rightly, and it is a long time since I read Audrey
> > Williamson's book, didn't she also say that the Tyrell family had never
> > spoken up about the Princes being at Gipping because they thought that it
> > could be evidence that James Tyrrell had in fact killed the Princes.This
> > was because of his so called confession. They were not aware that it could
> > be evidence that they were on their way to Burgundy.
> >
> > --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@>
> > wrote
> >
> > >
> > > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard
> > the
> > > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the
> > original
> > > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > > standing."
> > >
> > > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
> from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
> family story --
>
> Janet <forevere@> wrote:
>
> Many years ago (maybe 14 or 15) when I was Chapter Coordinator for
>
> the American Branch, I received a letter from a person in Bermuda who
>
> told about a story repeated through the generations in their family.
>
> Evidently they were descended from the Tyrell family and the story
>
> goes that the Princes were to be taken from the Tower and hidden in
>
> thier home on the way to another location. Apparently Elizabeth
>
> Woodville was in on this scheme. I believe this actually took place
>
> according to this family's legend.
>
> Several years and a couple of moves later and I cannot find the
>
> letter - isn't that always the way -- but I remember being so
>
> intrigued with the possibilities.
>
> Perhaps that Bermuda person is still interested in, and maybe even
>
> a member of, the Society and can fill us in on this story. I do believe
>
> that I have heard or read of this tale in my years as a Ricardian.
>
> This could account for the interest of Henry VII in James Tyrell even
>
> many years after Henry was crowned King.
>
>
> L.M.L.,
>
> Janet
>
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:45 AM, ricard1an <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > If I remember rightly, and it is a long time since I read Audrey
> > Williamson's book, didn't she also say that the Tyrell family had never
> > spoken up about the Princes being at Gipping because they thought that it
> > could be evidence that James Tyrrell had in fact killed the Princes.This
> > was because of his so called confession. They were not aware that it could
> > be evidence that they were on their way to Burgundy.
> >
> > --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@>
> > wrote
> >
> > >
> > > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard
> > the
> > > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the
> > original
> > > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > > standing."
> > >
> > > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 13:54:50
Which Janet was it - Trimbath? I think she is still around.
----- Original Message -----
From: ricard1an
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
That sounds intriguing, I wonder if she is still a member of the Forum?
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
> from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
> family story --
>
> Janet <forevere@> wrote:
>
> Many years ago (maybe 14 or 15) when I was Chapter Coordinator for
>
> the American Branch, I received a letter from a person in Bermuda who
>
> told about a story repeated through the generations in their family.
>
> Evidently they were descended from the Tyrell family and the story
>
> goes that the Princes were to be taken from the Tower and hidden in
>
> thier home on the way to another location. Apparently Elizabeth
>
> Woodville was in on this scheme. I believe this actually took place
>
> according to this family's legend.
>
> Several years and a couple of moves later and I cannot find the
>
> letter - isn't that always the way -- but I remember being so
>
> intrigued with the possibilities.
>
> Perhaps that Bermuda person is still interested in, and maybe even
>
> a member of, the Society and can fill us in on this story. I do believe
>
> that I have heard or read of this tale in my years as a Ricardian.
>
> This could account for the interest of Henry VII in James Tyrell even
>
> many years after Henry was crowned King.
>
>
> L.M.L.,
>
> Janet
>
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:45 AM, ricard1an <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > If I remember rightly, and it is a long time since I read Audrey
> > Williamson's book, didn't she also say that the Tyrell family had never
> > spoken up about the Princes being at Gipping because they thought that it
> > could be evidence that James Tyrrell had in fact killed the Princes.This
> > was because of his so called confession. They were not aware that it could
> > be evidence that they were on their way to Burgundy.
> >
> > --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@>
> > wrote
> >
> > >
> > > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard
> > the
> > > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the
> > original
> > > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > > standing."
> > >
> > > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: ricard1an
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
That sounds intriguing, I wonder if she is still a member of the Forum?
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
> from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
> family story --
>
> Janet <forevere@> wrote:
>
> Many years ago (maybe 14 or 15) when I was Chapter Coordinator for
>
> the American Branch, I received a letter from a person in Bermuda who
>
> told about a story repeated through the generations in their family.
>
> Evidently they were descended from the Tyrell family and the story
>
> goes that the Princes were to be taken from the Tower and hidden in
>
> thier home on the way to another location. Apparently Elizabeth
>
> Woodville was in on this scheme. I believe this actually took place
>
> according to this family's legend.
>
> Several years and a couple of moves later and I cannot find the
>
> letter - isn't that always the way -- but I remember being so
>
> intrigued with the possibilities.
>
> Perhaps that Bermuda person is still interested in, and maybe even
>
> a member of, the Society and can fill us in on this story. I do believe
>
> that I have heard or read of this tale in my years as a Ricardian.
>
> This could account for the interest of Henry VII in James Tyrell even
>
> many years after Henry was crowned King.
>
>
> L.M.L.,
>
> Janet
>
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:45 AM, ricard1an <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > If I remember rightly, and it is a long time since I read Audrey
> > Williamson's book, didn't she also say that the Tyrell family had never
> > spoken up about the Princes being at Gipping because they thought that it
> > could be evidence that James Tyrrell had in fact killed the Princes.This
> > was because of his so called confession. They were not aware that it could
> > be evidence that they were on their way to Burgundy.
> >
> > --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@>
> > wrote
> >
> > >
> > > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard
> > the
> > > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the
> > original
> > > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > > standing."
> > >
> > > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 14:56:44
A J Hibbard wrote:
>
> Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall. [snip] "It was said to be already a traditions of long standing."
>
> Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
Carol responds:
Right. Williamson also says that the family kept the tradition quiet because they believed that Tyrell murdered the "Princes" and that they must have stayed at Gipping before 1483. Williamson shows that that interpretation can't be correct and that "by permission of the uncle" can only mean that they were there with Richard's permission after he was king and EW agreed to come out of sanctuary.
Personally, I think Williamson's idea is perfectly plausible since Tyrell was clearly involved in the secret arrangements with Margaret that seem (only seem) to have involved getting the boys safely out of England before Bosworth. I think it would have been much easier to sneak them out of Gipping than out of the Tower at that point. The Tower rescue would have to have been earlier, perhaps at the time that Richard sent Tyrell to London for matters related to the investiture of Edward of Middleham, perhaps later around the time that EW came out of sanctuary, which seems more likely. (I can just see the two boys disguised as their sisters and walking right out of the Tower in plain sight! Or maybe, since Tyrell was Master of Henchman as well as Master of the Horse, maybe they were disguised as pages.)
Carol
>
> Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall. [snip] "It was said to be already a traditions of long standing."
>
> Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
Carol responds:
Right. Williamson also says that the family kept the tradition quiet because they believed that Tyrell murdered the "Princes" and that they must have stayed at Gipping before 1483. Williamson shows that that interpretation can't be correct and that "by permission of the uncle" can only mean that they were there with Richard's permission after he was king and EW agreed to come out of sanctuary.
Personally, I think Williamson's idea is perfectly plausible since Tyrell was clearly involved in the secret arrangements with Margaret that seem (only seem) to have involved getting the boys safely out of England before Bosworth. I think it would have been much easier to sneak them out of Gipping than out of the Tower at that point. The Tower rescue would have to have been earlier, perhaps at the time that Richard sent Tyrell to London for matters related to the investiture of Edward of Middleham, perhaps later around the time that EW came out of sanctuary, which seems more likely. (I can just see the two boys disguised as their sisters and walking right out of the Tower in plain sight! Or maybe, since Tyrell was Master of Henchman as well as Master of the Horse, maybe they were disguised as pages.)
Carol
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 17:04:03
This sounds like a good forward move & a plausible theory! I admire a lot & envy just a tiny bit.
Jan.
Sent from my iPad
On 12 Mar 2013, at 11:28, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
> From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
>
> > Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
> > from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
> > family story --
>
> Ah, right! So this was probably not them being moved to the continent -
> since the pattern of secret letters and payments suggests that that happened
> 12-18 months later - but them being taken north(?) to get them away from the
> Tower.
>
> I have this theory, totally unproveable, that the story put about as
> Tyrrell's confession was a garbled account of a real sequence of events in
> which somebody, probably Buckingham, tried to get access to the boys,
> Brackenbury suspected their motives and sent a message to Richard on his
> progress, and Richard sent Tyrrell to move the boys to a place of greater
> safety.
>
> One option would be to see if I can get a question posted in the "Coffee
> Break" section of the Daily Mail, asking for descendants of the Tyrrells who
> may remember this story. Coffee Break is good at uncovering that sort of
> information and getting people to write in saying "Oh yes, I remember such
> and such".
>
>
Jan.
Sent from my iPad
On 12 Mar 2013, at 11:28, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
> From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
>
> > Yep, she did say that. And there's an interesting old post to this group
> > from 2008, suggesting that there was, at one time, another strand to that
> > family story --
>
> Ah, right! So this was probably not them being moved to the continent -
> since the pattern of secret letters and payments suggests that that happened
> 12-18 months later - but them being taken north(?) to get them away from the
> Tower.
>
> I have this theory, totally unproveable, that the story put about as
> Tyrrell's confession was a garbled account of a real sequence of events in
> which somebody, probably Buckingham, tried to get access to the boys,
> Brackenbury suspected their motives and sent a message to Richard on his
> progress, and Richard sent Tyrrell to move the boys to a place of greater
> safety.
>
> One option would be to see if I can get a question posted in the "Coffee
> Break" section of the Daily Mail, asking for descendants of the Tyrrells who
> may remember this story. Coffee Break is good at uncovering that sort of
> information and getting people to write in saying "Oh yes, I remember such
> and such".
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 17:26:29
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
> Or maybe, since Tyrell was Master of Henchman as well as Master of the
> Horse, maybe they were disguised as pages.)
Excellent idea - that seems very likely. If he was Master of Henchman
presumably he could summon up a couple of spare sets of livery without
attracting any suspicion, and send them out in a rabble of other young men.
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
> Or maybe, since Tyrell was Master of Henchman as well as Master of the
> Horse, maybe they were disguised as pages.)
Excellent idea - that seems very likely. If he was Master of Henchman
presumably he could summon up a couple of spare sets of livery without
attracting any suspicion, and send them out in a rabble of other young men.
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 18:20:10
Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a reference to it in 2008.
I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab, gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
L.M.L.,
Janet T.
I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab, gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
L.M.L.,
Janet T.
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 18:26:16
Do you happen to remember if the name of your correspondent was Tyrell or
something else entirely? I see that Terell/Terrell is a fairly common
variant.
There also appear to be a number of newspapers, some of them online, in
Bermuda.
A J
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:20 PM, J. T, <treenbagh@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator
> of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter
> from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a
> reference to it in 2008.
> I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now
> since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I
> am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I
> supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about
> it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab,
> gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't
> find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to
> Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their
> transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes
> (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who
> actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
>
> L.M.L.,
> Janet T.
>
>
>
something else entirely? I see that Terell/Terrell is a fairly common
variant.
There also appear to be a number of newspapers, some of them online, in
Bermuda.
A J
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:20 PM, J. T, <treenbagh@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator
> of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter
> from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a
> reference to it in 2008.
> I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now
> since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I
> am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I
> supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about
> it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab,
> gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't
> find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to
> Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their
> transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes
> (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who
> actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
>
> L.M.L.,
> Janet T.
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 18:32:16
Such a fascinating story! I've always felt sorry for Tyrell's reputation. Maybe one day you will find that letter. If Richard can be found - how can a letter not be?! Maire.
--- In , "J. T," <treenbagh@...> wrote:
>
> Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a reference to it in 2008.
> I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab, gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
>
> L.M.L.,
> Janet T.
>
--- In , "J. T," <treenbagh@...> wrote:
>
> Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a reference to it in 2008.
> I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab, gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
>
> L.M.L.,
> Janet T.
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 18:39:20
I do not remember the lady's name. I'm sure I would if it were Tyrell so I believe it was not. Could have been a decendent of a daughter or granddaughter with ensuing name changes.....
I sure wish I could be more helpful. But the suggestions for tracking down current Tyrells, Terrels, Terells etc. sounds promising!
Any Bermudian Ricardians willing to help out?
L.M.L.,
Janet T.
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Do you happen to remember if the name of your correspondent was Tyrell or
> something else entirely? I see that Terell/Terrell is a fairly common
> variant.
>
> There also appear to be a number of newspapers, some of them online, in
> Bermuda.
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:20 PM, J. T, <treenbagh@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator
> > of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter
> > from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a
> > reference to it in 2008.
> > I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now
> > since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I
> > am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I
> > supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about
> > it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab,
> > gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> > The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> > kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't
> > find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to
> > Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their
> > transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes
> > (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who
> > actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> > I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> > Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
> >
> > L.M.L.,
> > Janet T.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
I sure wish I could be more helpful. But the suggestions for tracking down current Tyrells, Terrels, Terells etc. sounds promising!
Any Bermudian Ricardians willing to help out?
L.M.L.,
Janet T.
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Do you happen to remember if the name of your correspondent was Tyrell or
> something else entirely? I see that Terell/Terrell is a fairly common
> variant.
>
> There also appear to be a number of newspapers, some of them online, in
> Bermuda.
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:20 PM, J. T, <treenbagh@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator
> > of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter
> > from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a
> > reference to it in 2008.
> > I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now
> > since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I
> > am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I
> > supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about
> > it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab,
> > gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> > The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> > kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't
> > find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to
> > Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their
> > transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes
> > (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who
> > actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> > I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> > Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
> >
> > L.M.L.,
> > Janet T.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 18:54:14
So is there an extant descendant list of Tyrell??? Surely there is for a while, and then our friend Ancestry.com might help!
________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of J. T,
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
I do not remember the lady's name. I'm sure I would if it were Tyrell so I believe it was not. Could have been a decendent of a daughter or granddaughter with ensuing name changes.....
I sure wish I could be more helpful. But the suggestions for tracking down current Tyrells, Terrels, Terells etc. sounds promising!
Any Bermudian Ricardians willing to help out?
L.M.L.,
Janet T.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Do you happen to remember if the name of your correspondent was Tyrell or
> something else entirely? I see that Terell/Terrell is a fairly common
> variant.
>
> There also appear to be a number of newspapers, some of them online, in
> Bermuda.
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:20 PM, J. T, <treenbagh@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator
> > of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter
> > from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a
> > reference to it in 2008.
> > I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now
> > since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I
> > am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I
> > supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about
> > it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab,
> > gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> > The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> > kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't
> > find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to
> > Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their
> > transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes
> > (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who
> > actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> > I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> > Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
> >
> > L.M.L.,
> > Janet T.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of J. T,
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
I do not remember the lady's name. I'm sure I would if it were Tyrell so I believe it was not. Could have been a decendent of a daughter or granddaughter with ensuing name changes.....
I sure wish I could be more helpful. But the suggestions for tracking down current Tyrells, Terrels, Terells etc. sounds promising!
Any Bermudian Ricardians willing to help out?
L.M.L.,
Janet T.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Do you happen to remember if the name of your correspondent was Tyrell or
> something else entirely? I see that Terell/Terrell is a fairly common
> variant.
>
> There also appear to be a number of newspapers, some of them online, in
> Bermuda.
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:20 PM, J. T, <treenbagh@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator
> > of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter
> > from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a
> > reference to it in 2008.
> > I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now
> > since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I
> > am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I
> > supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about
> > it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab,
> > gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> > The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> > kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't
> > find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to
> > Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their
> > transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes
> > (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who
> > actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> > I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> > Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
> >
> > L.M.L.,
> > Janet T.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 18:55:30
From: J. T,
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
> I am mostly a lurker now since being jumped on for my comments about the
> York/Leicester dispute.
Nil carborandum illegitimi....
> The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> kick myself for misplacing it.
This is like my late boyfriend Norman, who was sure he'd found documentary
evidence that Richard's daughter Katherine gave birth to a daughter who
lived, was sent to Scotand and married into the Wisharts, but he hadn't kept
proper notes and now he couldn't remember what the evidence he'd found was.
> I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
A quick Google shows immediatel that there's a firm of tailors in Bermuda
called Tyrell's Fabric and Tailoring, and a politician called Neville
Tyrell.
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
> I am mostly a lurker now since being jumped on for my comments about the
> York/Leicester dispute.
Nil carborandum illegitimi....
> The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> kick myself for misplacing it.
This is like my late boyfriend Norman, who was sure he'd found documentary
evidence that Richard's daughter Katherine gave birth to a daughter who
lived, was sent to Scotand and married into the Wisharts, but he hadn't kept
proper notes and now he couldn't remember what the evidence he'd found was.
> I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
A quick Google shows immediatel that there's a firm of tailors in Bermuda
called Tyrell's Fabric and Tailoring, and a politician called Neville
Tyrell.
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-12 19:22:26
I don't know off hand but I think we all know who does!
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Bain
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
So is there an extant descendant list of Tyrell??? Surely there is for a while, and then our friend Ancestry.com might help!
________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of J. T,
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
I do not remember the lady's name. I'm sure I would if it were Tyrell so I believe it was not. Could have been a decendent of a daughter or granddaughter with ensuing name changes.....
I sure wish I could be more helpful. But the suggestions for tracking down current Tyrells, Terrels, Terells etc. sounds promising!
Any Bermudian Ricardians willing to help out?
L.M.L.,
Janet T.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Do you happen to remember if the name of your correspondent was Tyrell or
> something else entirely? I see that Terell/Terrell is a fairly common
> variant.
>
> There also appear to be a number of newspapers, some of them online, in
> Bermuda.
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:20 PM, J. T, <treenbagh@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator
> > of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter
> > from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a
> > reference to it in 2008.
> > I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now
> > since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I
> > am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I
> > supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about
> > it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab,
> > gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> > The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> > kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't
> > find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to
> > Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their
> > transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes
> > (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who
> > actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> > I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> > Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
> >
> > L.M.L.,
> > Janet T.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Bain
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
So is there an extant descendant list of Tyrell??? Surely there is for a while, and then our friend Ancestry.com might help!
________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of J. T,
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
I do not remember the lady's name. I'm sure I would if it were Tyrell so I believe it was not. Could have been a decendent of a daughter or granddaughter with ensuing name changes.....
I sure wish I could be more helpful. But the suggestions for tracking down current Tyrells, Terrels, Terells etc. sounds promising!
Any Bermudian Ricardians willing to help out?
L.M.L.,
Janet T.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Do you happen to remember if the name of your correspondent was Tyrell or
> something else entirely? I see that Terell/Terrell is a fairly common
> variant.
>
> There also appear to be a number of newspapers, some of them online, in
> Bermuda.
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:20 PM, J. T, <treenbagh@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Better late than never....I am Janet Trimbath and was Chapters Coordinator
> > of the American Branch lo! those many years ago. I did receive a letter
> > from a Bermuda lady about the Tyrell family tradition and posted a
> > reference to it in 2008.
> > I am still active in the Society (since 1989). I am mostly a lurker now
> > since being jumped on for my comments about the York/Leicester dispute. I
> > am still an avid Ricardian and just want what's best for Richard. I
> > supported Leicester's claim but if the Cathedral is going to be pissy about
> > it, then the place that grants him a respectable tomb, not a humble slab,
> > gets my vote for Final Resting Place.
> > The letter from Bermuda was handwritten and went into much detail. I could
> > kick myself for misplacing it. But we have moved several times and I can't
> > find it now. The gist of it was that the Princes were spirited away to
> > Gipping Hall and hidden there until arrangements could be made for their
> > transfer to someplace safe. The intimation was that there were 2 Princes
> > (ex-Princes?) at that time. I can't remember if names were mentioned of who
> > actually did the "rescuing". Too many years gone by.
> > I love the idea of using the Internet to track down decendents of James
> > Tyrell. Start looking in Bermuda!
> >
> > L.M.L.,
> > Janet T.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-13 00:01:22
"Claire M Jordan" wrote:
>
> I have this theory, totally unproveable, that the story put about as Tyrrell's confession was a garbled account of a real sequence of events in which somebody, probably Buckingham, tried to get access to the boys, Brackenbury suspected their motives and sent a message to Richard on his progress, and Richard sent Tyrrell to move the boys to a place of greater safety.
Carol responds:
But the problem is, as we've already established, there was no story "put about" as Tyrell's confession (except, perhaps, the rumor that he killed them during his trip to London while Richard was on progress). Everything else, including the story of the confession, is More's invention. (Polydore Vergil has an entirely different story of Tyrell riding sorrowfully to London. The Great Chronicle has only the suggestion, presented as a rumor, that Tyrell killed them.
Henry did not "give out" that Tyrell confessed the murders (to use Bacon's expression). That's Bacon's misunderstanding. Taking More's story at face value (almost), he assumes that More is recounting the story that Henry "gave out." In fact, More's story is entirely fictitious. Whether he got the essence of it from Morton and embroidered it from there or made it up himself, it contains obvious errors (such as Tyrell being wholly unknown to Richard), improbabilities (a lone priest secretly removing a "great heap of stones" to unbury the bodies and move them to hallowed ground in the middle of the night), and outright lies (the supposed confession) that I would be surprised if it contains a single word of truth.
My theory, also totally unproveable, is that rather than giving out a confession or even publicly stating that there was one, Henry simply leaked the rumor (after Tyrell's execution for aiding the Yorkist claimant Edmund de la Pole) that Tyrell did it. The story does seem to stem from Tyrell's visit to London at about the same time that Buckingham left the progress and went to Brecknock, but whether one has anything to do with the other, I don't know.
Carol
>
> I have this theory, totally unproveable, that the story put about as Tyrrell's confession was a garbled account of a real sequence of events in which somebody, probably Buckingham, tried to get access to the boys, Brackenbury suspected their motives and sent a message to Richard on his progress, and Richard sent Tyrrell to move the boys to a place of greater safety.
Carol responds:
But the problem is, as we've already established, there was no story "put about" as Tyrell's confession (except, perhaps, the rumor that he killed them during his trip to London while Richard was on progress). Everything else, including the story of the confession, is More's invention. (Polydore Vergil has an entirely different story of Tyrell riding sorrowfully to London. The Great Chronicle has only the suggestion, presented as a rumor, that Tyrell killed them.
Henry did not "give out" that Tyrell confessed the murders (to use Bacon's expression). That's Bacon's misunderstanding. Taking More's story at face value (almost), he assumes that More is recounting the story that Henry "gave out." In fact, More's story is entirely fictitious. Whether he got the essence of it from Morton and embroidered it from there or made it up himself, it contains obvious errors (such as Tyrell being wholly unknown to Richard), improbabilities (a lone priest secretly removing a "great heap of stones" to unbury the bodies and move them to hallowed ground in the middle of the night), and outright lies (the supposed confession) that I would be surprised if it contains a single word of truth.
My theory, also totally unproveable, is that rather than giving out a confession or even publicly stating that there was one, Henry simply leaked the rumor (after Tyrell's execution for aiding the Yorkist claimant Edmund de la Pole) that Tyrell did it. The story does seem to stem from Tyrell's visit to London at about the same time that Buckingham left the progress and went to Brecknock, but whether one has anything to do with the other, I don't know.
Carol
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-13 00:17:29
"ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> That sounds intriguing, I wonder if she is still a member of the Forum?
Carol responds:
I checked the Members list, which you can easily do from the forum website. No Janet, unfortunately.
Carol
>
> That sounds intriguing, I wonder if she is still a member of the Forum?
Carol responds:
I checked the Members list, which you can easily do from the forum website. No Janet, unfortunately.
Carol
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-13 00:32:15
"J. T," wrote:
>
> I do not remember the lady's name. I'm sure I would if it were Tyrell so I believe it was not. [snip]
Carol responds:
Could it have been Drewe, the surname of Audrey Williamson's source for the Tyrell family tradition?
And Janet, my apologies for thinking that you were no longer a member of the list. I checked for the name Janet and didn't find you.
Carol
>
> I do not remember the lady's name. I'm sure I would if it were Tyrell so I believe it was not. [snip]
Carol responds:
Could it have been Drewe, the surname of Audrey Williamson's source for the Tyrell family tradition?
And Janet, my apologies for thinking that you were no longer a member of the list. I checked for the name Janet and didn't find you.
Carol
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-13 00:35:14
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
> Henry did not "give out" that Tyrell confessed the murders (to use Bacon's
> expression). That's Bacon's misunderstanding. Taking More's story at face
> value (almost), he assumes that More is recounting the story that Henry
> "gave out." In fact, More's story is entirely fictitious.
If we're going to get excited about a Tyrell family story which we can only
trace back to a point more than 300 years after Richard's death, we ought at
least to consider the possibility that somebody who was eight when Richard
died might have been working from current gossip - however garbled. And we
know that the boys ceased to be seen in London and that we have reason to
think that Tyrell was involved - just not the way More thought.
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
> Henry did not "give out" that Tyrell confessed the murders (to use Bacon's
> expression). That's Bacon's misunderstanding. Taking More's story at face
> value (almost), he assumes that More is recounting the story that Henry
> "gave out." In fact, More's story is entirely fictitious.
If we're going to get excited about a Tyrell family story which we can only
trace back to a point more than 300 years after Richard's death, we ought at
least to consider the possibility that somebody who was eight when Richard
died might have been working from current gossip - however garbled. And we
know that the boys ceased to be seen in London and that we have reason to
think that Tyrell was involved - just not the way More thought.
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-13 12:18:02
Sorry if this reply is out of thread order but Yahoo is so difficult to follow.
I'm a member of ancestry.com worldwide and have had a look at the family trees on there for James Tyrell.
There are a lot, and as with anything, that means a lot of verifying as some are miles out in terms of dates and facts.
Tyrell seems to have had one daughter by Anne (of) Arundel, Anne, and she did married a Wentworth (I say this without double-checking because a lot of ancestry is fundamentally flawed) and had descendants, but these seemed to die out quite early on in the 16th century.
Most who have trees on there claim their descent from Tyrell's sister Dorothy, who married John Boteler (yes another Boteler, they crop up everywhere).
Insofar as I can see, the only attached source is one quoting the usual story of the confession - nothing about a Gipping legend. It would be a huge job to go through the lot, and I can't helping thinking that if anyone had any other knowledge it would have been on there as one of their stories.
H
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
> story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
> French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> standing."
>
> Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
>
> A J
>
>
>
>
I'm a member of ancestry.com worldwide and have had a look at the family trees on there for James Tyrell.
There are a lot, and as with anything, that means a lot of verifying as some are miles out in terms of dates and facts.
Tyrell seems to have had one daughter by Anne (of) Arundel, Anne, and she did married a Wentworth (I say this without double-checking because a lot of ancestry is fundamentally flawed) and had descendants, but these seemed to die out quite early on in the 16th century.
Most who have trees on there claim their descent from Tyrell's sister Dorothy, who married John Boteler (yes another Boteler, they crop up everywhere).
Insofar as I can see, the only attached source is one quoting the usual story of the confession - nothing about a Gipping legend. It would be a huge job to go through the lot, and I can't helping thinking that if anyone had any other knowledge it would have been on there as one of their stories.
H
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
> story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
> French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> standing."
>
> Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
>
> A J
>
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-13 12:30:39
Thanks for checking.
A J
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:17 AM, hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Sorry if this reply is out of thread order but Yahoo is so difficult to
> follow.
>
> I'm a member of ancestry.com worldwide and have had a look at the family
> trees on there for James Tyrell.
> There are a lot, and as with anything, that means a lot of verifying as
> some are miles out in terms of dates and facts.
> Tyrell seems to have had one daughter by Anne (of) Arundel, Anne, and she
> did married a Wentworth (I say this without double-checking because a lot
> of ancestry is fundamentally flawed) and had descendants, but these seemed
> to die out quite early on in the 16th century.
> Most who have trees on there claim their descent from Tyrell's sister
> Dorothy, who married John Boteler (yes another Boteler, they crop up
> everywhere).
> Insofar as I can see, the only attached source is one quoting the usual
> story of the confession - nothing about a Gipping legend. It would be a
> huge job to go through the lot, and I can't helping thinking that if anyone
> had any other knowledge it would have been on there as one of their stories.
> H
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard
> the
> > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the
> original
> > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > standing."
> >
> > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
A J
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:17 AM, hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Sorry if this reply is out of thread order but Yahoo is so difficult to
> follow.
>
> I'm a member of ancestry.com worldwide and have had a look at the family
> trees on there for James Tyrell.
> There are a lot, and as with anything, that means a lot of verifying as
> some are miles out in terms of dates and facts.
> Tyrell seems to have had one daughter by Anne (of) Arundel, Anne, and she
> did married a Wentworth (I say this without double-checking because a lot
> of ancestry is fundamentally flawed) and had descendants, but these seemed
> to die out quite early on in the 16th century.
> Most who have trees on there claim their descent from Tyrell's sister
> Dorothy, who married John Boteler (yes another Boteler, they crop up
> everywhere).
> Insofar as I can see, the only attached source is one quoting the usual
> story of the confession - nothing about a Gipping legend. It would be a
> huge job to go through the lot, and I can't helping thinking that if anyone
> had any other knowledge it would have been on there as one of their stories.
> H
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard
> the
> > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the
> original
> > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > standing."
> >
> > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-13 21:29:29
Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry if this reply is out of thread order but Yahoo is so difficult to follow.
>
> I'm a member of ancestry.com worldwide and have had a look at the family trees on there for James Tyrell.
> There are a lot, and as with anything, that means a lot of verifying as some are miles out in terms of dates and facts.
> Tyrell seems to have had one daughter by Anne (of) Arundel, Anne, and she did married a Wentworth (I say this without double-checking because a lot of ancestry is fundamentally flawed) and had descendants, but these seemed to die out quite early on in the 16th century.
> Most who have trees on there claim their descent from Tyrell's sister Dorothy, who married John Boteler (yes another Boteler, they crop up everywhere).
> Insofar as I can see, the only attached source is one quoting the usual story of the confession - nothing about a Gipping legend. It would be a huge job to go through the lot, and I can't helping thinking that if anyone had any other knowledge it would have been on there as one of their stories.
> H
>
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> >
> > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
> > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
> > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > standing."
> >
> > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry if this reply is out of thread order but Yahoo is so difficult to follow.
>
> I'm a member of ancestry.com worldwide and have had a look at the family trees on there for James Tyrell.
> There are a lot, and as with anything, that means a lot of verifying as some are miles out in terms of dates and facts.
> Tyrell seems to have had one daughter by Anne (of) Arundel, Anne, and she did married a Wentworth (I say this without double-checking because a lot of ancestry is fundamentally flawed) and had descendants, but these seemed to die out quite early on in the 16th century.
> Most who have trees on there claim their descent from Tyrell's sister Dorothy, who married John Boteler (yes another Boteler, they crop up everywhere).
> Insofar as I can see, the only attached source is one quoting the usual story of the confession - nothing about a Gipping legend. It would be a huge job to go through the lot, and I can't helping thinking that if anyone had any other knowledge it would have been on there as one of their stories.
> H
>
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> >
> > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
> > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
> > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > standing."
> >
> > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-13 22:10:18
"ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
Carol responds:
Yes, he did. Thomas was about twenty, I think, and was found guilty of helping Edmund Tudor. He and a servant (whose name doesn't match anyone in More's fairy tale of the wicked uncle) were imprisoned rather than executed. I don't know what happened to Thomas after that.
Carol
>
> Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
Carol responds:
Yes, he did. Thomas was about twenty, I think, and was found guilty of helping Edmund Tudor. He and a servant (whose name doesn't match anyone in More's fairy tale of the wicked uncle) were imprisoned rather than executed. I don't know what happened to Thomas after that.
Carol
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-14 10:00:25
A Thomas Tyrell keeps cropping up in the wills of the Hautes and in some documents of the NA, along with James. I've never been able to establish whether he was a brother or son. He doesn't appear on the ancestry trees - but as I said, I am always wary of them. Given that most there were tracing their descent through the Botelers it's hard to tell how much time they gave to researching James. H
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 21:29
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry if this reply is out of thread order but Yahoo is so difficult to follow.
>
> I'm a member of ancestry.com worldwide and have had a look at the family trees on there for James Tyrell.
> There are a lot, and as with anything, that means a lot of verifying as some are miles out in terms of dates and facts.
> Tyrell seems to have had one daughter by Anne (of) Arundel, Anne, and she did married a Wentworth (I say this without double-checking because a lot of ancestry is fundamentally flawed) and had descendants, but these seemed to die out quite early on in the 16th century.
> Most who have trees on there claim their descent from Tyrell's sister Dorothy, who married John Boteler (yes another Boteler, they crop up everywhere).
> Insofar as I can see, the only attached source is one quoting the usual story of the confession - nothing about a Gipping legend. It would be a huge job to go through the lot, and I can't helping thinking that if anyone had any other knowledge it would have been on there as one of their stories.
> H
>
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> >
> > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
> > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
> > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > standing."
> >
> > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 21:29
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry if this reply is out of thread order but Yahoo is so difficult to follow.
>
> I'm a member of ancestry.com worldwide and have had a look at the family trees on there for James Tyrell.
> There are a lot, and as with anything, that means a lot of verifying as some are miles out in terms of dates and facts.
> Tyrell seems to have had one daughter by Anne (of) Arundel, Anne, and she did married a Wentworth (I say this without double-checking because a lot of ancestry is fundamentally flawed) and had descendants, but these seemed to die out quite early on in the 16th century.
> Most who have trees on there claim their descent from Tyrell's sister Dorothy, who married John Boteler (yes another Boteler, they crop up everywhere).
> Insofar as I can see, the only attached source is one quoting the usual story of the confession - nothing about a Gipping legend. It would be a huge job to go through the lot, and I can't helping thinking that if anyone had any other knowledge it would have been on there as one of their stories.
> H
>
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> >
> > Williamson wrote that she had published an article in the Sunday Times
> > Magazine, 11 Mar 1973; after which she was contacted by Mrs Kathleen
> > Margaret Drewe. She was the source of the Gipping Hall tradition & said
> > she had heard it from her mother & grandmother who lived at Gipping Hall.
> > Williamson said further that Mrs Drewe was descended from one of 3 French
> > boys, "refuges from the revolution" adopted & given the Tyrell name by an
> > 18th century descendant of James Tyrell. Mrs Drewe's grandmother heard the
> > story from her husband, as well as his mother, the daughter of the original
> > French adopted son. "It was said to be already a traditions of long
> > standing."
> >
> > Later on, Williamson quotes Kathleen Margaret Drewe as saying "that the
> > princes and their mother lived in the hall by permission of the uncle."
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-14 12:21:59
This is the best genealogy I can find for you on the web
http://www.multiwords.de/genealogy/tyrrell04.htm
Thomas was still at Gipping and left a will in 1551 but the NA is having a bad day! I haven't checked this genealogy out so I'm always a bit wary. I think things are complicated because James also seems to have had a brother Thomas who died circa 1477.
Certainly son Thomas , along with James is mentioned in the wills of Sir Richard Hawte (Haute) and his wife Dame Katherine - both in 1493. Hawte joined Buckingham's rebellion, was pardoned and fought for H7 at Bosworth.
H
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 22:10
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
"ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
Carol responds:
Yes, he did. Thomas was about twenty, I think, and was found guilty of helping Edmund Tudor. He and a servant (whose name doesn't match anyone in More's fairy tale of the wicked uncle) were imprisoned rather than executed. I don't know what happened to Thomas after that.
Carol
http://www.multiwords.de/genealogy/tyrrell04.htm
Thomas was still at Gipping and left a will in 1551 but the NA is having a bad day! I haven't checked this genealogy out so I'm always a bit wary. I think things are complicated because James also seems to have had a brother Thomas who died circa 1477.
Certainly son Thomas , along with James is mentioned in the wills of Sir Richard Hawte (Haute) and his wife Dame Katherine - both in 1493. Hawte joined Buckingham's rebellion, was pardoned and fought for H7 at Bosworth.
H
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 22:10
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
"ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
Carol responds:
Yes, he did. Thomas was about twenty, I think, and was found guilty of helping Edmund Tudor. He and a servant (whose name doesn't match anyone in More's fairy tale of the wicked uncle) were imprisoned rather than executed. I don't know what happened to Thomas after that.
Carol
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-14 12:55:39
I think that the Hautes were cousins of the Woodvilles.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> This is the best genealogy I can find for you on the web
> Â
> http://www.multiwords.de/genealogy/tyrrell04.htm
> Â
> Thomas was still at Gipping and left a will in 1551 but the NA is having a bad day! I haven't checked this genealogy out so I'm always a bit wary. I think things are complicated because James also seems to have had a brother Thomas who died circa 1477.
> Â
> Certainly son Thomas , along with James is mentioned in the wills of Sir Richard Hawte (Haute) and his wife Dame Katherine - both in 1493. Hawte joined Buckingham's rebellion, was pardoned and fought for H7 at Bosworth.
> Â
> HÂ
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 22:10
> Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
>
>
> Â
>
>
> "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Yes, he did. Thomas was about twenty, I think, and was found guilty of helping Edmund Tudor. He and a servant (whose name doesn't match anyone in More's fairy tale of the wicked uncle) were imprisoned rather than executed. I don't know what happened to Thomas after that.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> This is the best genealogy I can find for you on the web
> Â
> http://www.multiwords.de/genealogy/tyrrell04.htm
> Â
> Thomas was still at Gipping and left a will in 1551 but the NA is having a bad day! I haven't checked this genealogy out so I'm always a bit wary. I think things are complicated because James also seems to have had a brother Thomas who died circa 1477.
> Â
> Certainly son Thomas , along with James is mentioned in the wills of Sir Richard Hawte (Haute) and his wife Dame Katherine - both in 1493. Hawte joined Buckingham's rebellion, was pardoned and fought for H7 at Bosworth.
> Â
> HÂ
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 22:10
> Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
>
>
> Â
>
>
> "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Yes, he did. Thomas was about twenty, I think, and was found guilty of helping Edmund Tudor. He and a servant (whose name doesn't match anyone in More's fairy tale of the wicked uncle) were imprisoned rather than executed. I don't know what happened to Thomas after that.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Gipping Hall tradition
2013-03-14 12:59:35
James Haute (he whose wife Katherine was perhaps Richard's mistress) was that's true. Sir Richard Haute is a bit more difficult to link with them. In fact he was knighted by Richard on the Scottish campaign.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 14 March 2013, 12:55
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
I think that the Hautes were cousins of the Woodvilles.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> This is the best genealogy I can find for you on the web
> Â
> http://www.multiwords.de/genealogy/tyrrell04.htm
> Â
> Thomas was still at Gipping and left a will in 1551 but the NA is having a bad day! I haven't checked this genealogy out so I'm always a bit wary. I think things are complicated because James also seems to have had a brother Thomas who died circa 1477.
> Â
> Certainly son Thomas , along with James is mentioned in the wills of Sir Richard Hawte (Haute) and his wife Dame Katherine - both in 1493. Hawte joined Buckingham's rebellion, was pardoned and fought for H7 at Bosworth.
> Â
> HÂ
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 22:10
> Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
>
>
> Â
>
>
> "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Yes, he did. Thomas was about twenty, I think, and was found guilty of helping Edmund Tudor. He and a servant (whose name doesn't match anyone in More's fairy tale of the wicked uncle) were imprisoned rather than executed. I don't know what happened to Thomas after that.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 14 March 2013, 12:55
Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
I think that the Hautes were cousins of the Woodvilles.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> This is the best genealogy I can find for you on the web
> Â
> http://www.multiwords.de/genealogy/tyrrell04.htm
> Â
> Thomas was still at Gipping and left a will in 1551 but the NA is having a bad day! I haven't checked this genealogy out so I'm always a bit wary. I think things are complicated because James also seems to have had a brother Thomas who died circa 1477.
> Â
> Certainly son Thomas , along with James is mentioned in the wills of Sir Richard Hawte (Haute) and his wife Dame Katherine - both in 1493. Hawte joined Buckingham's rebellion, was pardoned and fought for H7 at Bosworth.
> Â
> HÂ
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 22:10
> Subject: Re: Gipping Hall tradition
>
>
> Â
>
>
> "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > Didn't James have a son called Thomas who was arrested with him but later released. It is a long time since I read about this but I seem to remember it.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Yes, he did. Thomas was about twenty, I think, and was found guilty of helping Edmund Tudor. He and a servant (whose name doesn't match anyone in More's fairy tale of the wicked uncle) were imprisoned rather than executed. I don't know what happened to Thomas after that.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
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