Has anyone seen another source for this?
Has anyone seen another source for this?
2013-03-22 22:41:55
Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York A Series of
Historical Fragments Proclamations, Letters, and other Contemporary
Documents relating to the Reign of King Edward the Fourth*. London.
MDCCCXLV. p 179 [this falls in a section headed The Last Years of the
Reign of King Edward the Fourth, extracted from original Letter and
Documents. Chap. III. His Domestic Policy.]
The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke
of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother,
POSTS were
first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of
Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They
delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied
at the rate of 100 miles per day."
Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation.
Does anyone know?
A J
something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York A Series of
Historical Fragments Proclamations, Letters, and other Contemporary
Documents relating to the Reign of King Edward the Fourth*. London.
MDCCCXLV. p 179 [this falls in a section headed The Last Years of the
Reign of King Edward the Fourth, extracted from original Letter and
Documents. Chap. III. His Domestic Policy.]
The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke
of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother,
POSTS were
first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of
Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They
delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied
at the rate of 100 miles per day."
Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation.
Does anyone know?
A J
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 16:42:34
A J Hibbard wrote:
>
> Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother, POSTS were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied at the rate of 100 miles per day."
> Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation. Does anyone know?
Carol responds:
I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for the benevolences involved in funding it.
I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me, that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions the now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as Lord Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates that the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims or pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily, Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas festivities:
"King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which it excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children, the issue of his marriage . . . ."
And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king, being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to murmur and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose" as its source.
Carol
>
> Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother, POSTS were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied at the rate of 100 miles per day."
> Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation. Does anyone know?
Carol responds:
I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for the benevolences involved in funding it.
I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me, that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions the now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as Lord Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates that the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims or pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily, Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas festivities:
"King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which it excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children, the issue of his marriage . . . ."
And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king, being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to murmur and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose" as its source.
Carol
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 17:01:40
Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission.
CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
Told you Ross is good on his references!!
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 16:42
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
A J Hibbard wrote:
>
> Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother, POSTS were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied at the rate of 100 miles per day."
> Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation. Does anyone know?
Carol responds:
I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for the benevolences involved in funding it.
I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me, that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions the now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as Lord Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates that the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims or pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily, Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas festivities:
"King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which it excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children, the issue of his marriage . . . ."
And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king, being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to murmur and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose" as its source.
Carol
Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission.
CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
Told you Ross is good on his references!!
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 16:42
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
A J Hibbard wrote:
>
> Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother, POSTS were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied at the rate of 100 miles per day."
> Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation. Does anyone know?
Carol responds:
I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for the benevolences involved in funding it.
I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me, that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions the now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as Lord Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates that the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims or pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily, Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas festivities:
"King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which it excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children, the issue of his marriage . . . ."
And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king, being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to murmur and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose" as its source.
Carol
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 17:42:08
Thanks both for the references. The "White Rose" work indexes institution
of the post under both Richard & Edward, although the text I quoted
indicated that it was Richard who did the institution. Amstrong's citation
is also interesting - have to have a rummage now, since I've been
downloading so much stuff, I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII on
line (maybe through ECCO - which means I probably have it on a CD here
somewhere. Anyway thanks again.
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system
> was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders
> stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate
> of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system
> operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
>
> Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission.
> CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in
> England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval
> History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and
> Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> Told you Ross is good on his references!!
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 16:42
> Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
>
>
> A J Hibbard wrote:
> >
> > Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> > something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> > The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
> establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
> civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke
> of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother, POSTS
> were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of
> Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They
> delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied
> at the rate of 100 miles per day."
>
> > Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation.
> Does anyone know?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right
> margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was
> using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the
> Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for
> the benevolences involved in funding it.
>
> I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me,
> that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions the
> now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its
> tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as Lord
> Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even
> Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates that
> the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims or
> pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily,
> Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
>
> And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas
> celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas festivities:
>
> "King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of
> Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly
> garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen
> heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and
> hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most
> costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new
> and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant
> appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his
> person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no
> other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled
> with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which it
> excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children,
> the issue of his marriage . . . ."
>
> And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention
> was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to
> queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king,
> being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to murmur
> and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
>
> So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
>
> To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned
> Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard
> and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The
> only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose"
> as its source.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
of the post under both Richard & Edward, although the text I quoted
indicated that it was Richard who did the institution. Amstrong's citation
is also interesting - have to have a rummage now, since I've been
downloading so much stuff, I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII on
line (maybe through ECCO - which means I probably have it on a CD here
somewhere. Anyway thanks again.
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system
> was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders
> stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate
> of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system
> operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
>
> Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission.
> CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in
> England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval
> History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and
> Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> Told you Ross is good on his references!!
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 16:42
> Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
>
>
> A J Hibbard wrote:
> >
> > Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> > something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> > The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
> establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
> civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke
> of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother, POSTS
> were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of
> Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They
> delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied
> at the rate of 100 miles per day."
>
> > Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation.
> Does anyone know?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right
> margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was
> using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the
> Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for
> the benevolences involved in funding it.
>
> I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me,
> that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions the
> now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its
> tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as Lord
> Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even
> Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates that
> the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims or
> pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily,
> Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
>
> And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas
> celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas festivities:
>
> "King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of
> Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly
> garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen
> heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and
> hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most
> costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new
> and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant
> appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his
> person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no
> other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled
> with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which it
> excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children,
> the issue of his marriage . . . ."
>
> And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention
> was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to
> queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king,
> being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to murmur
> and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
>
> So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
>
> To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned
> Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard
> and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The
> only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose"
> as its source.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 17:49:48
Yes I can't find Foedera online yet - the two previous volumes but not that one. Will have to keep looking. Ross isn't kind to Richard about Scotland so if he instituted it he doesn't give him credit. Edward seemed to be pre-occupied with Europe at this point so it's highly likely it was Richard.
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 17:42
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Thanks both for the references. The "White Rose" work indexes institution
of the post under both Richard & Edward, although the text I quoted
indicated that it was Richard who did the institution. Amstrong's citation
is also interesting - have to have a rummage now, since I've been
downloading so much stuff, I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII on
line (maybe through ECCO - which means I probably have it on a CD here
somewhere. Anyway thanks again.
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system
> was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders
> stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate
> of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system
> operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
>
> Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission.
> CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in
> England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval
> History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and
> Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> Told you Ross is good on his references!!
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 16:42
> Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
>
>
> A J Hibbard wrote:
> >
> > Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> > something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> > The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
> establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
> civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke
> of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother, POSTS
> were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of
> Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They
> delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied
> at the rate of 100 miles per day."
>
> > Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation.
> Does anyone know?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right
> margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was
> using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the
> Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for
> the benevolences involved in funding it.
>
> I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me,
> that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions the
> now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its
> tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as Lord
> Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even
> Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates that
> the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims or
> pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily,
> Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
>
> And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas
> celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas festivities:
>
> "King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of
> Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly
> garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen
> heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and
> hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most
> costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new
> and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant
> appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his
> person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no
> other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled
> with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which it
> excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children,
> the issue of his marriage . . . ."
>
> And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention
> was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to
> queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king,
> being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to murmur
> and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
>
> So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
>
> To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned
> Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard
> and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The
> only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose"
> as its source.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 17:42
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Thanks both for the references. The "White Rose" work indexes institution
of the post under both Richard & Edward, although the text I quoted
indicated that it was Richard who did the institution. Amstrong's citation
is also interesting - have to have a rummage now, since I've been
downloading so much stuff, I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII on
line (maybe through ECCO - which means I probably have it on a CD here
somewhere. Anyway thanks again.
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system
> was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders
> stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate
> of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system
> operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
>
> Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission.
> CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in
> England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval
> History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and
> Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> Told you Ross is good on his references!!
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 16:42
> Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
>
>
> A J Hibbard wrote:
> >
> > Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> > something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> > The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
> establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
> civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the Duke
> of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother, POSTS
> were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance of
> Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They
> delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means journied
> at the rate of 100 miles per day."
>
> > Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation.
> Does anyone know?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right
> margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was
> using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the
> Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for
> the benevolences involved in funding it.
>
> I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me,
> that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions the
> now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its
> tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as Lord
> Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even
> Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates that
> the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims or
> pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily,
> Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
>
> And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas
> celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas festivities:
>
> "King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of
> Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly
> garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen
> heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and
> hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most
> costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new
> and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant
> appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his
> person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no
> other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled
> with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which it
> excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children,
> the issue of his marriage . . . ."
>
> And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention
> was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to
> queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king,
> being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to murmur
> and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
>
> So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
>
> To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned
> Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard
> and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The
> only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose"
> as its source.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 19:09:40
From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source
for this? with comments on Croyland
> I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII
Whassat? I've not heard of that one.
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source
for this? with comments on Croyland
> I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII
Whassat? I've not heard of that one.
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 19:27:45
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
> Â
> Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission. CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> Told you Ross is good on his references!!
Carol responds:
Thanks, Hilary. Ross's wording and the source make it sound as if the courier system may have been Richard's idea, not Edward's. Can anyone check the original source (Foedera)? Also, I'm fairly sure that Richard reinstituted it at some point, but whether it was during Buckingham's rebellion or while he was anticipating a Tudor invasion in 1484 or 1485, I can't recall.
Carol
>
> Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
> Â
> Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission. CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> Told you Ross is good on his references!!
Carol responds:
Thanks, Hilary. Ross's wording and the source make it sound as if the courier system may have been Richard's idea, not Edward's. Can anyone check the original source (Foedera)? Also, I'm fairly sure that Richard reinstituted it at some point, but whether it was during Buckingham's rebellion or while he was anticipating a Tudor invasion in 1484 or 1485, I can't recall.
Carol
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 19:34:01
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Yes I can't find Foedera online yet - the two previous volumes but not that one. Will have to keep looking. Ross isn't kind to Richard about Scotland so if he instituted it he doesn't give him credit. Edward seemed to be pre-occupied with Europe at this point so it's highly likely it was Richard.
Carol responds:
Yes. Note his sly use of the passive voice: "was instituted." What better way to disguise the identity of the instituter? Also, if it "was instituted" to keep Edward informed, it again seems likely that Richard originated it. But I guess crediting Richard with any innovation, much less one that would eventually transform communication throughout England, would conflict with Ross's view that he was not particularly intelligent.
Carol
>
> Yes I can't find Foedera online yet - the two previous volumes but not that one. Will have to keep looking. Ross isn't kind to Richard about Scotland so if he instituted it he doesn't give him credit. Edward seemed to be pre-occupied with Europe at this point so it's highly likely it was Richard.
Carol responds:
Yes. Note his sly use of the passive voice: "was instituted." What better way to disguise the identity of the instituter? Also, if it "was instituted" to keep Edward informed, it again seems likely that Richard originated it. But I guess crediting Richard with any innovation, much less one that would eventually transform communication throughout England, would conflict with Ross's view that he was not particularly intelligent.
Carol
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 19:49:45
Well, these sources are certainly proving elusive. Haven't yet found an
edition of the "Croyland Chronicle Contin." that would have been available
to the author of "Chronicles of the White Rose" published in 1843. Will
have to check tomorrow when I should have access to my university library
catalog. The only information that seems clear that I've found on line is
this paragraph in *The Making of Medieval Forgeries / False Documents in
Fifteenth-Century England* (2004) in which the author Alfred Hiatt says
In *Rerum Anglicarum Scriptorum Veterum*, ed William Fulman (Oxford, 1684)
pp 1-130; 451-578. This is the only complete edition of the *Historia
Croylandensis*, including continuations. The first editor of 'Ingulf's'
chronicle of Crowland Abbey was Henry Savile: *Rerum Anglicarum Scriptores
Post Bedam* (London, 1596); the only other edition of the chronicle is that
of Walter de Gray Birch: *The Chronicle of Croyland Abbey by
Ingulf*(Wisbech, 1883). There is one translation of the entire text
printed by
Fulman: *Ingulf's Chronicle of the Abbey of Croyland* with the
continuations by Peter of Blois and other anonymous writers, trans H T
Riley (London, 1854). J Stevenson, in the *The Church Historians of England*,
7 vols (London, 1854) ii, pt 2 translates only 'Ingulf's' chronicle.
I do have Foedera Tomes XII published in 1711, downloaded from ECCO
(Eighteenth Century Collections online, a Gale Group database which my
university subscribes to). Pages 159-163 contain
AD 1482
An. 22. E. 4.
Pat. 22. E. 4.
p. 1. [m]. 14.
Restitutiones pro Episcopo Menevensi.
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. R.
ibid
De Capitaneo Armate constituto.
AD 1482
An. 22. E. R.
ibid
Dr Provisionibus pro Armata paaedicta, & de Intendendo
AD 1482
An. 22. E. 4.
Ex Autogr.
Magnatum Scotiae, ex parte Jacobi Regis, Obligaatio pro Securitate &
Indempnitate Ducis Albaniae.
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. R.
Ex Autogr.
Praepositus, tota Societas Mercatorum, & Communitas Edinburgi se Obligant
ad satisfaciendum Regi Angliae, super Facto Matrimonii & Pecuniae solvendae.
ý [in English]
Gevin in presens of,
The Right Mithti Prince Richard Duke of Glocister,
...
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. R.
Scot. 22. E. R. m. 4.
De Conductu pro Margareta Sorore Regis Scotorum
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. 4.
Franc. 22.
E. R. m. 12.
Literae Acquietantiae pro Anno Censu
AD 1482
An. 22. E. 4.
Ibid. m. 13.
Confirmatio Ligarum Portugaliae
And while I don't claim to be a Latin scholar, none of these jump out at me
as saying anything about establishing the post system.
There is on p 157-158
Pro Ricardo Duce Gloucestriae Locumtenente Generali constituto contra
Scotos.
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. R.
Scot. 22. E. R.. m. 3.
REX Omnibus, ad quos &c Salutem.
Quamquam Treugae Guerarumque Abstinentiae inter Nos & Jacobum Scotiae
Regem paulo ante contractae, conclusae, & initae fuerint, prout in Literis
inde confectis penius continetur,
Idem tamen Scotiae Rex, inveterata Inimicitia indurataque Malitia
involutus, spreta ipsius Nominis omnisque Nobilitatis fama, perculsum per
eum Feodus suamque in hac parte Promissionem violavit, Bellum contra Nos
tam Re quam Vero indicere, Nostratesque Armis subito Invadere decrevit,
Nos igitur, ejus Malitiis obviare, tantamque Injuiram propulsare
intendentes, praecarissimum Fratrem nostrum Ricardum Gloucestriae Ducem,
In quem non modo propter ejus Sanguinis Propinquitatem atque
Fidelitatem, verumetiam propter ejus approbatam in Artibus Bellicosis
Miltiam caeterasque ejus Virtutes, plenissime confidimus,
Locumtenentem nostrum Generalem, in nostri Absentia, ad dictum Scotiae
Regem nostrum Inimicum capitalem, ejusque Subditos, Adhaerentes, &
Faventes, Devincendum, Debellandum, & Expugnandum, quotiens opus fuerit,
Nominavimus, Deputavimus, & Ordinavimus, prout per Praetentes Nominamus,
Deputamus, & Ordinamus,
Dantes & Concedentes eidem Fratri nostro Locumtenenti nostro Potestatem
& Auctoritatem plenariam, omnes & singulos Ligeos & Subditos nostros, tam
in Marchiis nostris versus Scotiam quam in Comitatibus eisdem Marchiis
adjacntibus (cujuscumque Status, Gradus, aut Conditionis fuerint) evocandi
& levandi ut nobis serviant, ipsiq; nostro Locumtenenti Assistentiam,
Succursum, Auxilium & Juvamen in Bello, contra praefatum Scotiae Regem
nostrum Inimicum gerendo, quotiens idem Frater noster in eodem personaliter
interesse voluerit, praestent, eosdemque Subditos & Ligeos nostros sic
Evocatos & Levatos, cum personaliter intererit, Ducendi, Regendi, &
Gubernandi, atque Acies Belli Ordinandi, necnon omnia & singula, que tam
pro Invasione in dictum Regni Scotiae quam pro Defensione Regni nostri
Angliae & Marcharum praedictarum necessaria fuerint & oportuna, in propria
Persona sua Faciendi & Exequendi, sicut ea faceremus si personaliter
interessemus,
Damus autem universis & singulis Ligeis & Subditis nostris Marcharum &
Comitatuum praedictorum, tam Gardianis Marchiarum illarum quam aliis
quibuscumque (cujuscumque Gradus seu Conditionis fuerint) Tenore
Praesentium, firmiter in Mandatis quod praefato Locumtenenti nostro, cum in
Executione Praemissorum personaliter intererit, Intendentes sint,
Assistentes, Auxiliantes, & Obedientes in omnibus diligenter, quotiens &
quando per ipsum ex parte nostra requisiti fuerint, seueorum aliquis
requisitos fuerit.
In cujus, &c ad Placitum Regis duraturas.
Teste Rege apud Westmonasterium duodecimo Die Junii.
The next item is in English & refers to "Bying of CXX. Draught Horsez for
the Cariage of our seid Ordenance fro our seid Towne of Newcastell
Northward into the seid Parties of Scotland" and to eh "Byin of ii. Mil.
Sheves of Arrowes to be spent in the seide Parties for the Subduying of
oure seid Rebelles and Enemyes the Scotts in the seid Viage."
but - alas - nothing about setting up posts for rapid communication...
I shall have to see tomorrow if I can find the Armstrong article.
A J
P S - translation anyone?
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Yes I can't find Foedera online yet - the two previous volumes but not
> that one. Will have to keep looking. Ross isn't kind to Richard about
> Scotland so if he instituted it he doesn't give him credit. Edward seemed
> to be pre-occupied with Europe at this point so it's highly likely it was
> Richard.
>
> ________________________________
> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 17:42
> Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another
> source for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
> Thanks both for the references. The "White Rose" work indexes institution
> of the post under both Richard & Edward, although the text I quoted
> indicated that it was Richard who did the institution. Amstrong's citation
> is also interesting - have to have a rummage now, since I've been
> downloading so much stuff, I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII on
> line (maybe through ECCO - which means I probably have it on a CD here
> somewhere. Anyway thanks again.
>
> A J
>
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier
> system
> > was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders
> > stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the
> rate
> > of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This
> system
> > operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
> >
> > Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission.
> > CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in
> > England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval
> > History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and
> > Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> > Told you Ross is good on his references!!
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 16:42
> > Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> > for this? with comments on Croyland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A J Hibbard wrote:
> > >
> > > Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> > > something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> > > The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
> > establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
> > civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the
> Duke
> > of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother,
> POSTS
> > were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance
> of
> > Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They
> > delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means
> journied
> > at the rate of 100 miles per day."
> >
> > > Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation.
> > Does anyone know?
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right
> > margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was
> > using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the
> > Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for
> > the benevolences involved in funding it.
> >
> > I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me,
> > that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions
> the
> > now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its
> > tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as
> Lord
> > Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even
> > Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates
> that
> > the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims
> or
> > pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily,
> > Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
> >
> > And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas
> > celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas
> festivities:
> >
> > "King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of
> > Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly
> > garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen
> > heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and
> > hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most
> > costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new
> > and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant
> > appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his
> > person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no
> > other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled
> > with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which
> it
> > excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children,
> > the issue of his marriage . . . ."
> >
> > And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention
> > was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to
> > queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king,
> > being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to
> murmur
> > and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
> >
> > So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
> >
> > To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned
> > Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard
> > and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The
> > only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose"
> > as its source.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
edition of the "Croyland Chronicle Contin." that would have been available
to the author of "Chronicles of the White Rose" published in 1843. Will
have to check tomorrow when I should have access to my university library
catalog. The only information that seems clear that I've found on line is
this paragraph in *The Making of Medieval Forgeries / False Documents in
Fifteenth-Century England* (2004) in which the author Alfred Hiatt says
In *Rerum Anglicarum Scriptorum Veterum*, ed William Fulman (Oxford, 1684)
pp 1-130; 451-578. This is the only complete edition of the *Historia
Croylandensis*, including continuations. The first editor of 'Ingulf's'
chronicle of Crowland Abbey was Henry Savile: *Rerum Anglicarum Scriptores
Post Bedam* (London, 1596); the only other edition of the chronicle is that
of Walter de Gray Birch: *The Chronicle of Croyland Abbey by
Ingulf*(Wisbech, 1883). There is one translation of the entire text
printed by
Fulman: *Ingulf's Chronicle of the Abbey of Croyland* with the
continuations by Peter of Blois and other anonymous writers, trans H T
Riley (London, 1854). J Stevenson, in the *The Church Historians of England*,
7 vols (London, 1854) ii, pt 2 translates only 'Ingulf's' chronicle.
I do have Foedera Tomes XII published in 1711, downloaded from ECCO
(Eighteenth Century Collections online, a Gale Group database which my
university subscribes to). Pages 159-163 contain
AD 1482
An. 22. E. 4.
Pat. 22. E. 4.
p. 1. [m]. 14.
Restitutiones pro Episcopo Menevensi.
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. R.
ibid
De Capitaneo Armate constituto.
AD 1482
An. 22. E. R.
ibid
Dr Provisionibus pro Armata paaedicta, & de Intendendo
AD 1482
An. 22. E. 4.
Ex Autogr.
Magnatum Scotiae, ex parte Jacobi Regis, Obligaatio pro Securitate &
Indempnitate Ducis Albaniae.
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. R.
Ex Autogr.
Praepositus, tota Societas Mercatorum, & Communitas Edinburgi se Obligant
ad satisfaciendum Regi Angliae, super Facto Matrimonii & Pecuniae solvendae.
ý [in English]
Gevin in presens of,
The Right Mithti Prince Richard Duke of Glocister,
...
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. R.
Scot. 22. E. R. m. 4.
De Conductu pro Margareta Sorore Regis Scotorum
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. 4.
Franc. 22.
E. R. m. 12.
Literae Acquietantiae pro Anno Censu
AD 1482
An. 22. E. 4.
Ibid. m. 13.
Confirmatio Ligarum Portugaliae
And while I don't claim to be a Latin scholar, none of these jump out at me
as saying anything about establishing the post system.
There is on p 157-158
Pro Ricardo Duce Gloucestriae Locumtenente Generali constituto contra
Scotos.
AD 1482.
An. 22. E. R.
Scot. 22. E. R.. m. 3.
REX Omnibus, ad quos &c Salutem.
Quamquam Treugae Guerarumque Abstinentiae inter Nos & Jacobum Scotiae
Regem paulo ante contractae, conclusae, & initae fuerint, prout in Literis
inde confectis penius continetur,
Idem tamen Scotiae Rex, inveterata Inimicitia indurataque Malitia
involutus, spreta ipsius Nominis omnisque Nobilitatis fama, perculsum per
eum Feodus suamque in hac parte Promissionem violavit, Bellum contra Nos
tam Re quam Vero indicere, Nostratesque Armis subito Invadere decrevit,
Nos igitur, ejus Malitiis obviare, tantamque Injuiram propulsare
intendentes, praecarissimum Fratrem nostrum Ricardum Gloucestriae Ducem,
In quem non modo propter ejus Sanguinis Propinquitatem atque
Fidelitatem, verumetiam propter ejus approbatam in Artibus Bellicosis
Miltiam caeterasque ejus Virtutes, plenissime confidimus,
Locumtenentem nostrum Generalem, in nostri Absentia, ad dictum Scotiae
Regem nostrum Inimicum capitalem, ejusque Subditos, Adhaerentes, &
Faventes, Devincendum, Debellandum, & Expugnandum, quotiens opus fuerit,
Nominavimus, Deputavimus, & Ordinavimus, prout per Praetentes Nominamus,
Deputamus, & Ordinamus,
Dantes & Concedentes eidem Fratri nostro Locumtenenti nostro Potestatem
& Auctoritatem plenariam, omnes & singulos Ligeos & Subditos nostros, tam
in Marchiis nostris versus Scotiam quam in Comitatibus eisdem Marchiis
adjacntibus (cujuscumque Status, Gradus, aut Conditionis fuerint) evocandi
& levandi ut nobis serviant, ipsiq; nostro Locumtenenti Assistentiam,
Succursum, Auxilium & Juvamen in Bello, contra praefatum Scotiae Regem
nostrum Inimicum gerendo, quotiens idem Frater noster in eodem personaliter
interesse voluerit, praestent, eosdemque Subditos & Ligeos nostros sic
Evocatos & Levatos, cum personaliter intererit, Ducendi, Regendi, &
Gubernandi, atque Acies Belli Ordinandi, necnon omnia & singula, que tam
pro Invasione in dictum Regni Scotiae quam pro Defensione Regni nostri
Angliae & Marcharum praedictarum necessaria fuerint & oportuna, in propria
Persona sua Faciendi & Exequendi, sicut ea faceremus si personaliter
interessemus,
Damus autem universis & singulis Ligeis & Subditis nostris Marcharum &
Comitatuum praedictorum, tam Gardianis Marchiarum illarum quam aliis
quibuscumque (cujuscumque Gradus seu Conditionis fuerint) Tenore
Praesentium, firmiter in Mandatis quod praefato Locumtenenti nostro, cum in
Executione Praemissorum personaliter intererit, Intendentes sint,
Assistentes, Auxiliantes, & Obedientes in omnibus diligenter, quotiens &
quando per ipsum ex parte nostra requisiti fuerint, seueorum aliquis
requisitos fuerit.
In cujus, &c ad Placitum Regis duraturas.
Teste Rege apud Westmonasterium duodecimo Die Junii.
The next item is in English & refers to "Bying of CXX. Draught Horsez for
the Cariage of our seid Ordenance fro our seid Towne of Newcastell
Northward into the seid Parties of Scotland" and to eh "Byin of ii. Mil.
Sheves of Arrowes to be spent in the seide Parties for the Subduying of
oure seid Rebelles and Enemyes the Scotts in the seid Viage."
but - alas - nothing about setting up posts for rapid communication...
I shall have to see tomorrow if I can find the Armstrong article.
A J
P S - translation anyone?
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Yes I can't find Foedera online yet - the two previous volumes but not
> that one. Will have to keep looking. Ross isn't kind to Richard about
> Scotland so if he instituted it he doesn't give him credit. Edward seemed
> to be pre-occupied with Europe at this point so it's highly likely it was
> Richard.
>
> ________________________________
> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 17:42
> Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another
> source for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
> Thanks both for the references. The "White Rose" work indexes institution
> of the post under both Richard & Edward, although the text I quoted
> indicated that it was Richard who did the institution. Amstrong's citation
> is also interesting - have to have a rummage now, since I've been
> downloading so much stuff, I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII on
> line (maybe through ECCO - which means I probably have it on a CD here
> somewhere. Anyway thanks again.
>
> A J
>
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier
> system
> > was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders
> > stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the
> rate
> > of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This
> system
> > operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
> >
> > Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission.
> > CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in
> > England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval
> > History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and
> > Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> > Told you Ross is good on his references!!
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 16:42
> > Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> > for this? with comments on Croyland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A J Hibbard wrote:
> > >
> > > Talking about fast communication (as we have been lately) here's
> > > something from *The Chronicles of the White Rose of York [snip]
> > > The natural indolence and love of pleasure of the King led to the
> > establishment of one of the most useful and beneficial institutions of
> > civilized life. "During the Scottish campaign, in order to enable the
> Duke
> > of Gloucester to be in constant communication with his Royal brother,
> POSTS
> > were first established in England. Horsemen were placed at the distance
> of
> > Twenty miles from each other, on the road from Scotland to London, They
> > delivered the Despatches from one to another, which by this means
> journied
> > at the rate of 100 miles per day."
> >
> > > Unfortunately the editor doesn't indicate the source of his quotation.
> > Does anyone know?
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > I meant to answer this earlier. He does cite his source (in the right
> > margin). It's the Croyland Chronicle, page 571 of whatever edition he was
> > using. However, I can't find the passage. Croyland simply criticizes the
> > Scottish campaign as a frivolous waste of money and blames *Richard* for
> > the benevolences involved in funding it.
> >
> > I've also noted two points, one important and one interesting only to me,
> > that I've previously overlooked. The important one is that he mentions
> the
> > now-lost codicil to Edward's will made on his deathbed and speaks of its
> > tragic consequences. He can only mean that Edward appointed Richard as
> Lord
> > Protector (a point taken for granted by all subsequent chroniclers, even
> > Vergil and More). The other is a small mistake that, to me, indicates
> that
> > the Croyland Chronicler was not as familiar with the court as he claims
> or
> > pretends to be. He lists King Edward's daughters as Elizabeth, Cecily,
> > Anne, Catherine, and Dorothy. Dorothy? Her name was Bridget.
> >
> > And the old hypocrite, who criticizes Richard's splendid Christmas
> > celebrations, applauds Edward's equally extravagant Christmas
> festivities:
> >
> > "King Edward kept the following feast of the Nativity at his palace of
> > Westminster, frequently appearing clad in a great variety of most costly
> > garments, of quite a different cut to those which had been usually seen
> > heitherto in our kingdom. The sleeves of the robes were very full and
> > hanging, greatly resembling a monk's frock, and so lined within with most
> > costly furs, and rolled over the shoulders, as to give that prince a new
> > and distinguished air to beholders, he being a person of most elegant
> > appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his
> > person. You might have seen, in those days, the royal court presenting no
> > other appearance than such as fully befits a most mighty kingdom, filled
> > with riches and with people of almost all nations, and (a point in which
> it
> > excelled all others) boasting of those most sweet and beautiful children,
> > the issue of his marriage . . . ."
> >
> > And yet "during [Richard'] feast of the Nativity, far too much attention
> > was given to dancing and gaiety, and vain changes of apparal presented to
> > queen Anne and the lady Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of the late king,
> > being of similar colour and shape; a thing that caused the people to
> murmur
> > and the nobles and prelates greatly to wonder thereat."
> >
> > So much for the Croyland continuator as an objective recorder of history.
> >
> > To return to your original question, I was sure that Kendall mentioned
> > Edward's instituting a system of post horses to communicate with Richard
> > and Richard's reinstituting it later, but I can't find the reference. The
> > only reference I can find online quotes "The Chronicle of the White Rose"
> > as its source.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 19:54:54
Wikipedia says
Thomas Rymer (1643-1713) was the English historiographer royal & his most
lasting contribution to scholarship was the sixteen volumes of
*Foedera*[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rymer#cite_note-5>he
published from 1704 to 1713; a collection of "all the leagues,
treaties,
alliances, capitulations, and confederacies, which have at any time been
made between the Crown of England and any other kingdoms, princes and
states," it was an immense labor of research and transcription on which he
spent the last twenty years of his life.
I'm guessing the documents he accumulated may also be found elsewhere, but
cant' say for sure...
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Claire M Jordan
<whitehound@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another
> source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
> > I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII
>
> Whassat? I've not heard of that one.
>
>
>
Thomas Rymer (1643-1713) was the English historiographer royal & his most
lasting contribution to scholarship was the sixteen volumes of
*Foedera*[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rymer#cite_note-5>he
published from 1704 to 1713; a collection of "all the leagues,
treaties,
alliances, capitulations, and confederacies, which have at any time been
made between the Crown of England and any other kingdoms, princes and
states," it was an immense labor of research and transcription on which he
spent the last twenty years of his life.
I'm guessing the documents he accumulated may also be found elsewhere, but
cant' say for sure...
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Claire M Jordan
<whitehound@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another
> source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
> > I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII
>
> Whassat? I've not heard of that one.
>
>
>
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 21:08:40
You can find the previous two volumes on British History online but not the one we want. The NA are proving elusive. But Ryner was a Yorkshireman ...
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:54
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Wikipedia says
Thomas Rymer (1643-1713) was the English historiographer royal & his most
lasting contribution to scholarship was the sixteen volumes of
*Foedera*[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rymer#cite_note-5>he
published from 1704 to 1713; a collection of "all the leagues,
treaties,
alliances, capitulations, and confederacies, which have at any time been
made between the Crown of England and any other kingdoms, princes and
states," it was an immense labor of research and transcription on which he
spent the last twenty years of his life.
I'm guessing the documents he accumulated may also be found elsewhere, but
cant' say for sure...
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Claire M Jordan
<whitehound@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another
> source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
> > I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII
>
> Whassat? I've not heard of that one.
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:54
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Wikipedia says
Thomas Rymer (1643-1713) was the English historiographer royal & his most
lasting contribution to scholarship was the sixteen volumes of
*Foedera*[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rymer#cite_note-5>he
published from 1704 to 1713; a collection of "all the leagues,
treaties,
alliances, capitulations, and confederacies, which have at any time been
made between the Crown of England and any other kingdoms, princes and
states," it was an immense labor of research and transcription on which he
spent the last twenty years of his life.
I'm guessing the documents he accumulated may also be found elsewhere, but
cant' say for sure...
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Claire M Jordan
<whitehound@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another
> source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
> > I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII
>
> Whassat? I've not heard of that one.
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 21:14:32
As AJ says that volume of Foedera is elusive to download but we won't give up.
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:27
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
> Â
> Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission. CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> Told you Ross is good on his references!!
Carol responds:
Thanks, Hilary. Ross's wording and the source make it sound as if the courier system may have been Richard's idea, not Edward's. Can anyone check the original source (Foedera)? Also, I'm fairly sure that Richard reinstituted it at some point, but whether it was during Buckingham's rebellion or while he was anticipating a Tudor invasion in 1484 or 1485, I can't recall.
Carol
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:27
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier system was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers. This system operated successfully from 4 July to 12 October.'
> Â
> Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission. CAJ Armstrong Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval History Presented to F M Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the courier system
> Told you Ross is good on his references!!
Carol responds:
Thanks, Hilary. Ross's wording and the source make it sound as if the courier system may have been Richard's idea, not Edward's. Can anyone check the original source (Foedera)? Also, I'm fairly sure that Richard reinstituted it at some point, but whether it was during Buckingham's rebellion or while he was anticipating a Tudor invasion in 1484 or 1485, I can't recall.
Carol
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 21:16:40
Everything hints at Richard, who was by far a better administrator than Edward, I'd have thought. Edward intelligent yes, and sometimes focused, but could he maintain the focus for such 'boring things' - I doubt it?
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:34
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Yes I can't find Foedera online yet - the two previous volumes but not that one. Will have to keep looking. Ross isn't kind to Richard about Scotland so if he instituted it he doesn't give him credit. Edward seemed to be pre-occupied with Europe at this point so it's highly likely it was Richard.
Carol responds:
Yes. Note his sly use of the passive voice: "was instituted." What better way to disguise the identity of the instituter? Also, if it "was instituted" to keep Edward informed, it again seems likely that Richard originated it. But I guess crediting Richard with any innovation, much less one that would eventually transform communication throughout England, would conflict with Ross's view that he was not particularly intelligent.
Carol
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:34
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Yes I can't find Foedera online yet - the two previous volumes but not that one. Will have to keep looking. Ross isn't kind to Richard about Scotland so if he instituted it he doesn't give him credit. Edward seemed to be pre-occupied with Europe at this point so it's highly likely it was Richard.
Carol responds:
Yes. Note his sly use of the passive voice: "was instituted." What better way to disguise the identity of the instituter? Also, if it "was instituted" to keep Edward informed, it again seems likely that Richard originated it. But I guess crediting Richard with any innovation, much less one that would eventually transform communication throughout England, would conflict with Ross's view that he was not particularly intelligent.
Carol
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 21:26:58
It's easy enough to get it if you have a subscription to the Gale Group
database Eighteenth Century Collections Online. I'm spoiled by being able
to access it through my university library, so I have no idea how much it
costs, but I'm guessing it's not cheap; I also don't know if individuals
can subscribe, or if it's only available to institutions. If you have any
affiliations with an academic institution, that's probably the best route
to explore.
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> As AJ says that volume of Foedera is elusive to download but we won't give
> up.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:27
>
> Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier
> system was institutedý - the first exampleý of its use in England - wth
> riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at
> the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers.
> This system operated successfully from 4ý July to 12 October.'
> > ý
> > Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission. CAJ Armstrongý
> Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time
> of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval Historyý Presented to F M
> Powicke ed R W Huntý and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the
> courier system
> > Told you Ross is good on his references!!
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Hilary. Ross's wording and the source make it sound as if the
> courier system may have been Richard's idea, not Edward's. Can anyone check
> the original source (Foedera)? Also, I'm fairly sure that Richard
> reinstituted it at some point, but whether it was during Buckingham's
> rebellion or while he was anticipating a Tudor invasion in 1484 or 1485, I
> can't recall.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
database Eighteenth Century Collections Online. I'm spoiled by being able
to access it through my university library, so I have no idea how much it
costs, but I'm guessing it's not cheap; I also don't know if individuals
can subscribe, or if it's only available to institutions. If you have any
affiliations with an academic institution, that's probably the best route
to explore.
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> As AJ says that volume of Foedera is elusive to download but we won't give
> up.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:27
>
> Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier
> system was institutedý - the first exampleý of its use in England - wth
> riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at
> the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers.
> This system operated successfully from 4ý July to 12 October.'
> > ý
> > Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission. CAJ Armstrongý
> Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time
> of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval Historyý Presented to F M
> Powicke ed R W Huntý and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the
> courier system
> > Told you Ross is good on his references!!
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Hilary. Ross's wording and the source make it sound as if the
> courier system may have been Richard's idea, not Edward's. Can anyone check
> the original source (Foedera)? Also, I'm fairly sure that Richard
> reinstituted it at some point, but whether it was during Buckingham's
> rebellion or while he was anticipating a Tudor invasion in 1484 or 1485, I
> can't recall.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 21:34:53
Thanks very much. I'll have a go.
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 21:26
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
It's easy enough to get it if you have a subscription to the Gale Group
database Eighteenth Century Collections Online. I'm spoiled by being able
to access it through my university library, so I have no idea how much it
costs, but I'm guessing it's not cheap; I also don't know if individuals
can subscribe, or if it's only available to institutions. If you have any
affiliations with an academic institution, that's probably the best route
to explore.
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> As AJ says that volume of Foedera is elusive to download but we won't give
> up.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:27
>
> Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier
> system was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth
> riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at
> the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers.
> This system operated successfully from 4Â July to 12 October.'
> > Â
> > Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission. CAJ ArmstrongÂ
> Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time
> of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval History Presented to F M
> Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the
> courier system
> > Told you Ross is good on his references!!
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Hilary. Ross's wording and the source make it sound as if the
> courier system may have been Richard's idea, not Edward's. Can anyone check
> the original source (Foedera)? Also, I'm fairly sure that Richard
> reinstituted it at some point, but whether it was during Buckingham's
> rebellion or while he was anticipating a Tudor invasion in 1484 or 1485, I
> can't recall.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 21:26
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
It's easy enough to get it if you have a subscription to the Gale Group
database Eighteenth Century Collections Online. I'm spoiled by being able
to access it through my university library, so I have no idea how much it
costs, but I'm guessing it's not cheap; I also don't know if individuals
can subscribe, or if it's only available to institutions. If you have any
affiliations with an academic institution, that's probably the best route
to explore.
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> As AJ says that volume of Foedera is elusive to download but we won't give
> up.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:27
>
> Subject: Re: Has anyone seen another source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
>
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Ross Edward IV P 288. 'In order to keep the king informed a courier
> system was instituted - the first example of its use in England - wth
> riders stationed at intervals of twenty miles so that a letter passed at
> the rate of two hundred miles in two days through a chain of messengers.
> This system operated successfully from 4Â July to 12 October.'
> > Â
> > Ref Rymer Foedera XII 159-163 Gloucester's Commission. CAJ ArmstrongÂ
> Some Examples of the Distribution and Speed of News in England at the Time
> of the Wars of the Roses in Studies in Medieaval History Presented to F M
> Powicke ed R W Hunt and others 429-54 and Schofield II 339-40 for the
> courier system
> > Told you Ross is good on his references!!
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Hilary. Ross's wording and the source make it sound as if the
> courier system may have been Richard's idea, not Edward's. Can anyone check
> the original source (Foedera)? Also, I'm fairly sure that Richard
> reinstituted it at some point, but whether it was during Buckingham's
> rebellion or while he was anticipating a Tudor invasion in 1484 or 1485, I
> can't recall.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyla
2013-03-24 22:06:50
Sorry Rymer
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 21:08
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
You can find the previous two volumes on British History online but not the one we want. The NA are proving elusive. But Ryner was a Yorkshireman ...
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <mailto:ajhibbard%40gmail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:54
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Wikipedia says
Thomas Rymer (1643-1713) was the English historiographer royal & his most
lasting contribution to scholarship was the sixteen volumes of
*Foedera*[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rymer#cite_note-5>he
published from 1704 to 1713; a collection of "all the leagues,
treaties,
alliances, capitulations, and confederacies, which have at any time been
made between the Crown of England and any other kingdoms, princes and
states," it was an immense labor of research and transcription on which he
spent the last twenty years of his life.
I'm guessing the documents he accumulated may also be found elsewhere, but
cant' say for sure...
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Claire M Jordan
<mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com>wrote:
> **
>
>
> From: "A J Hibbard" <mailto:ajhibbard%40gmail.com>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another
> source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
> > I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII
>
> Whassat? I've not heard of that one.
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 21:08
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
You can find the previous two volumes on British History online but not the one we want. The NA are proving elusive. But Ryner was a Yorkshireman ...
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <mailto:ajhibbard%40gmail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 24 March 2013, 19:54
Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another source for this? with comments on Croyland
Wikipedia says
Thomas Rymer (1643-1713) was the English historiographer royal & his most
lasting contribution to scholarship was the sixteen volumes of
*Foedera*[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rymer#cite_note-5>he
published from 1704 to 1713; a collection of "all the leagues,
treaties,
alliances, capitulations, and confederacies, which have at any time been
made between the Crown of England and any other kingdoms, princes and
states," it was an immense labor of research and transcription on which he
spent the last twenty years of his life.
I'm guessing the documents he accumulated may also be found elsewhere, but
cant' say for sure...
A J
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Claire M Jordan
<mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com>wrote:
> **
>
>
> From: "A J Hibbard" <mailto:ajhibbard%40gmail.com>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone seen another
> source
> for this? with comments on Croyland
>
> > I'm not sure if I finally found Foedera XII
>
> Whassat? I've not heard of that one.
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
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