MB and Coldharbour...

Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.

Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).

"At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.

"Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...

No mention of the other daughters or EW...

Eileen

Wow, thank you Eileen. That's really interesting.
Sandra

From: EileenB
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:05 PM
To:
Subject: MB and Coldharbour...


Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.

Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).

"At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.

"Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...

No mention of the other daughters or EW...

Eileen

Eileen, I forgot to add that I now await the book from Amazon. I should have thought of it before. The nod is greatly appreciated. Sandra

From: SandraMachin
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:16 PM
To:
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

Wow, thank you Eileen. That's really interesting.
Sandra

From: EileenB
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:05 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: MB and Coldharbour...

Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.

Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
Pamela Garrett

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
>
> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
>
> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
>
> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
>
> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
>
> Eileen
>

It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?


________________________________
From: Pamela <ownwrite101@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 

Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
Pamela Garrett

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
>
> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
>
> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
>
> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
>
> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
>
> Eileen
>

I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?

Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Pamela <ownwrite101@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>  
>
> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> Pamela Garrett
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> >
> > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> >
> > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> >
> > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> >
> > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> >
> > Eileen
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sandra...well worth paying out for this book as it contains lots of info. Eileen

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Eileen, I forgot to add that I now await the book from Amazon. I should have thought of it before. The nod is greatly appreciated. Sandra
>
> From: SandraMachin
> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:16 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> Wow, thank you Eileen. That’s really interesting.
> Sandra
>
> From: EileenB
> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:05 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford."
 
I know he lived but am  I the only one who thinks that sound sinister? 
 
And what a bloody cheek, taking over Cis's house.


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:05
Subject: MB and Coldharbour...

 
Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.

Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).

"At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.

"Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...

No mention of the other daughters or EW...

Eileen

Hi Pamela.....the more I read about this lady the sickened I feel..

For example: "MB status at the new royal court and the precedence and honour accorded to her were semi-regal...." She accompanied EoY at her Coronation & sat at her right hand in the Parliament Chamber"..and in 1488 both she and E were issued with liveries of the Order of the Garter a sign of special standing and a song was composed to celebrate their wearing of robes together" i.e. the Mother-In-Law got to wear the same outfit as her d-in-l
not a good look in trying to compete with someone with a dewy freshness while one is probably quite wrinkled with the worry of it all...:0) "It was a aura of regality that M/Mother deliberately cultivated and at Christmas 1487 she was observed wearing 'like mantell and surcott as the quene with a rich corrownall on her hede"...I wonder what the old Croyland Cronicler made of that? After all he made a big issue with Anne Neville and EoY wore similar garmets. O but wait..he adored mother did he not? One of Mother;s big houses was just down the road from Croyland Abbey....Eileen


--- In , "Pamela" <ownwrite101@...> wrote:
>
> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> Pamela Garrett
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> >
> > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> >
> > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> >
> > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> >
> > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> >
> > Eileen
> >
>

Liz..I bet Cis would so have loved to smack Mother in the face...Wollop!..I find it so strange that Cis left stuff in her will to MB and Weasle...There must be a sensible explanation...Was it maybe so that her, Cis' remaining relatives/servant etc., would not be punished or abused. Its totally bizarre...Eileen

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> "Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford."
>  
> I know he lived but am  I the only one who thinks that sound sinister? 
>  
> And what a bloody cheek, taking over Cis's house.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:05
> Subject: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>  
> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
>
> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
>
> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
>
> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
>
> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
>
> Eileen
>
>
>
>
>
>

Baynard was not Richard's property but Cicely's. How can HT just appropriate it? Unless he had Cis declared a traitor!

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:18 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > Pamela Garrett
> >
> > --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > >
> > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > >
> > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > >
> > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > >
> > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

If it's any comfort, I think Cecily was at Berkhamstad Castle, 30 miles northwest of London before/after Bosworth?

HT seems to have left her alone to pursue a pious (or at least a reclusive) existence. Any road, I thinks she was long gone from Baynard's Castle when MB and HT descended on them.

~Weds



--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Baynard was not Richard's property but Cicely's. How can HT just appropriate it? Unless he had Cis declared a traitor!

I don't know. If I am not staying in one of my houses, it does not mean someone else can walk in and lay claim to it....... Is it legal? Or did they just declare themselves as "guests"?
What happened to the castle afterwards? Did Cis get it back or it became MB's?

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 26, 2013, at 8:39 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> If it's any comfort, I think Cecily was at Berkhamstad Castle, 30 miles northwest of London before/after Bosworth?
>
> HT seems to have left her alone to pursue a pious (or at least a reclusive) existence. Any road, I thinks she was long gone from Baynard's Castle when MB and HT descended on them.
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
> >
> > Baynard was not Richard's property but Cicely's. How can HT just appropriate it? Unless he had Cis declared a traitor!
>
>

He could do what he wanted 'cos he was king .....
 
But isn't it interesting?  Some people really abuse their  power -
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 23:36
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
Baynard was not Richard's property but Cicely's. How can HT just appropriate it? Unless he had Cis declared a traitor!

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:18 PM, "EileenB" <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com> wrote:

> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@...>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > Pamela Garrett
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > >
> > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > >
> > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > >
> > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > >
> > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?

Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Pamela <ownwrite101@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>  
>
> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> Pamela Garrett
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> >
> > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> >
> > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> >
> > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> >
> > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> >
> > Eileen
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hello All, Cecily was long gone from Baynards, shortly after Edward's so called marriage to Elizabeth Woodville she had retired into a semi nun like state at Berkhampstead, the place Richard visited her for a few days in May of 1485. The name of the order Cecily joined escapes me at present, I think it was the Brigetines ( spelling may be wrong )
Widows in those times could take a vow so that they did not have to remarry.
Henry and his mother did whatever they liked, no its not legal but they obviously did not care about the niceties.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie


--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know. If I am not staying in one of my houses, it does not mean someone else can walk in and lay claim to it....... Is it legal? Or did they just declare themselves as "guests"?
> What happened to the castle afterwards? Did Cis get it back or it became MB's?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 26, 2013, at 8:39 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> > If it's any comfort, I think Cecily was at Berkhamstad Castle, 30 miles northwest of London before/after Bosworth?
> >
> > HT seems to have left her alone to pursue a pious (or at least a reclusive) existence. Any road, I thinks she was long gone from Baynard's Castle when MB and HT descended on them.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Baynard was not Richard's property but Cicely's. How can HT just appropriate it? Unless he had Cis declared a traitor!
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.

Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >  
> >
> > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > Pamela Garrett
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > >
> > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > >
> > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > >
> > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > >
> > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hello Cecily probably did not have much choice in the matter like Anne Neville, Anne's mother, she was given her property back as long as she left it to Tudor in her will, nice move Henry ( sarcastically said ).
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Liz..I bet Cis would so have loved to smack Mother in the face...Wollop!..I find it so strange that Cis left stuff in her will to MB and Weasle...There must be a sensible explanation...Was it maybe so that her, Cis' remaining relatives/servant etc., would not be punished or abused. Its totally bizarre...Eileen
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > "Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford."
> >  
> > I know he lived but am  I the only one who thinks that sound sinister? 
> >  
> > And what a bloody cheek, taking over Cis's house.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:05
> > Subject: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >  
> > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> >
> > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> >
> > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> >
> > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> >
> > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I suppose you can hardly blame her. But I was wondering...who actually owned it at the time of Bosworth? Eileen

--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello All, Cecily was long gone from Baynards, shortly after Edward's so called marriage to Elizabeth Woodville she had retired into a semi nun like state at Berkhampstead, the place Richard visited her for a few days in May of 1485. The name of the order Cecily joined escapes me at present, I think it was the Brigetines ( spelling may be wrong )
> Widows in those times could take a vow so that they did not have to remarry.
> Henry and his mother did whatever they liked, no its not legal but they obviously did not care about the niceties.
> Christine
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know. If I am not staying in one of my houses, it does not mean someone else can walk in and lay claim to it....... Is it legal? Or did they just declare themselves as "guests"?
> > What happened to the castle afterwards? Did Cis get it back or it became MB's?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 26, 2013, at 8:39 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > > If it's any comfort, I think Cecily was at Berkhamstad Castle, 30 miles northwest of London before/after Bosworth?
> > >
> > > HT seems to have left her alone to pursue a pious (or at least a reclusive) existence. Any road, I thinks she was long gone from Baynard's Castle when MB and HT descended on them.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > > --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Baynard was not Richard's property but Cicely's. How can HT just appropriate it? Unless he had Cis declared a traitor!
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I've often thought of that. And how Henry felt sitting at desks and in furniture occupied by Richard (and Edward). Knowing him, he wouldn't have had the decorators in. I hope he felt the presence of their ghosts all his life, but I doubt he did. 



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 10:38
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.

Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > à
> >
> > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > Pamela Garrett
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > >
> > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > >
> > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > >
> > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > >
> > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Im inclined to think he did...Eileen


--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
I hope he felt the presence of their ghosts all his life, but I doubt he did. 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 10:38
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
>
> Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > > Pamela Garrett
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > > >
> > > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > > >
> > > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > > >
> > > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > > >
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> He could do what he wanted 'cos he was king .....

> But isn't it interesting? Some people really abuse their power -

Do we know whether HT and MB just appropriated Baynard's Castle, or did they
pay rent for using it? Did they keep it forever (and if so did they ever
pay for it) or were they just borrowing it?

And is this any worse than some of Edward's behaviour? There are definitely
some real and serious abuses of power under Henry, such as the pre-dated
reign, Morton's Fork and several judicial murders, but is this really one of
them? Or at least, is it worse than Edward's abuses of power? Somebody
commented only a couple of days ago on how grasping and self-serving
Edward's parliaments were, and how badly they compared with Richard's
parliament. Somebody I used to know said that the Yorkists didn't just take
what wasn't nailed down, they took what *was* nailed down and the floor it
was nailed to, and whilst that's not true of Richard it's arguably true of
Edward and George.

We talk as if Henry's reign was some sort of nadir because we compare him
with Richard - but really it was probably just that Richard was an
unexpected and almost unprecedented high point, and Henry was a return to
dreary, self-serving normality.

From: christineholmes651@...
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> Hello Cecily probably did not have much choice in the matter like Anne
> Neville, Anne's mother, she was given her property back as long as she
> left it to Tudor in her will, nice move Henry ( sarcastically said ).
Christine

It's sharp practice, but in what way is it sharper or more reprehensible
than Edward declaring Anne's mother to be legally dead in order to take all
her property and lands and then pay her a smallish pension out of what had
been her own money?

Hello Claire, I don't believe I said it was

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:40 AM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
> > Hello Cecily probably did not have much choice in the matter like Anne
> > Neville, Anne's mother, she was given her property back as long as she
> > left it to Tudor in her will, nice move Henry ( sarcastically said ).
> Christine
>
> It's sharp practice, but in what way is it sharper or more reprehensible
> than Edward declaring Anne's mother to be legally dead in order to take all
> her property and lands and then pay her a smallish pension out of what had
> been her own money?
>

From: christineholmes651@...
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> Hello Claire, I don't believe I said it was

OK - just so we remember that Henry wasn't much more of a crook than Edward
was! Richard, poor boy, was a shining light of moral probity in comparison
to most of his contemporaries, even if he *did* tout for a bribe when he was
17 , and skint.

Oh Claire, of course they wouldn't have paid rent for it!   Everything we have heard about Tudor suggests he never paid for anything he didn't have to so why the hell would he pay rent?  And who to exactly?   You are really grasping at straws now. 
 
Incidentally I'm not saying they were "worse" than Edward, I'm not commenting on Edward at all.  If you want to start a thread about his rapaciousness, fine. go ahead and we'll discuss it. 

From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 10:58
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
From: liz williams
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> He could do what he wanted 'cos he was king .....

> But isn't it interesting? Some people really abuse their power -

Do we know whether HT and MB just appropriated Baynard's Castle, or did they
pay rent for using it? Did they keep it forever (and if so did they ever
pay for it) or were they just borrowing it?

And is this any worse than some of Edward's behaviour? There are definitely
some real and serious abuses of power under Henry, such as the pre-dated
reign, Morton's Fork and several judicial murders, but is this really one of
them? Or at least, is it worse than Edward's abuses of power? Somebody
commented only a couple of days ago on how grasping and self-serving
Edward's parliaments were, and how badly they compared with Richard's
parliament. Somebody I used to know said that the Yorkists didn't just take
what wasn't nailed down, they took what *was* nailed down and the floor it
was nailed to, and whilst that's not true of Richard it's arguably true of
Edward and George.

We talk as if Henry's reign was some sort of nadir because we compare him
with Richard - but really it was probably just that Richard was an
unexpected and almost unprecedented high point, and Henry was a return to
dreary, self-serving normality.

Because Anne's mother could have been in a much worse position since she seems to have been at least thought to have been involved in her husband's treason.  And I don't think the pension was "that" small.
 
 
 
 

From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 11:32
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> Hello Cecily probably did not have much choice in the matter like Anne
> Neville, Anne's mother, she was given her property back as long as she
> left it to Tudor in her will, nice move Henry ( sarcastically said ).
Christine

It's sharp practice, but in what way is it sharper or more reprehensible
than Edward declaring Anne's mother to be legally dead in order to take all
her property and lands and then pay her a smallish pension out of what had
been her own money?



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From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> Oh Claire, of course they wouldn't have paid rent for it! Everything we
> have heard about Tudor suggests he never paid for anything he didn't have
> to so why the hell would he pay rent?

They probably didn't, but do we know that they didn't? When did the system
of renting out houses to upper-class tenants (as opposed to tenant
farmers) - certainly in place by the 18th C - first come into force? Did it
exist at this time? When Richard stayed at a hall in Penrith while the
castle had builders in, for example, was he somebody's guest, or was he
renting the place, or what?

> And who to exactly?

To Cecily if she still owned it, or to the church if she had gifted her
property to the church.

From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> Because Anne's mother could have been in a much worse position since she
> seems to have been at least thought to have been involved in her husband's
> treason. And I don't think the pension was "that" small.

Thanks to Richard she came out of it perfectly OK - it seems clear from the
bit of business about him complaining about the amont of money she'd spent
on a very expensive gold reliquary thing that he'd done the equivalent of
saying "If you need anything extra, just charge it to my account", and had
lived to regret it. And according to the reconstructions Middleham was very
comfortable, like a cosy country cottage multiplied to the size of a grand
hotel.

But the idea of Edward declaring her legally dead seems sinister and callous
(unless it was her own idea, of course!), and also suggests that he didn't
think he had any other legal way of taking her lands off her, so there was
apparently some reason he couldn't just take it by attainder.

Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......

On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:



Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.

Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
> ý
>
> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > ýýý
> >
> > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > Pamela Garrett
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > >
> > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > >
> > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > >
> > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > >
> > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Indeed Pamela...many hearts must have been broken....even over 500 years later I can feel their pain...Eileen

--- In , Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
>
> Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > > Pamela Garrett
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > > >
> > > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > > >
> > > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > > >
> > > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > > >
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

What a tragic loss when Westminster Palace burn down...and now in the place where St Stephens Chapel stood...where Anne and Richard were married and where Anne lay in state now MPs squabble like a bunch of 5 year olds. How many of them are aware of what took place where they are actually sitting...I dont think they care actually..

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Indeed Pamela...many hearts must have been broken....even over 500 years later I can feel their pain...Eileen
>
> --- In , Pamela Bain <pbain@> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
> >
> > Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > > >
> > > > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > > > Pamela Garrett
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > > > >
> > > > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > > > >
> > > > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > > > >
> > > > > Eileen
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

No, we don't "know" they didn't but we don't "know" they did either do we and since Henry had a reputation for hanging onto his cash bigtime  and was playing the conquering hero, I doubt very much if he or his mother would have bothered to pay Cicely any rent .  To think they did is, to my mind, somewhat naive. 
 
I really find it baffling why you always seem to want to credit Henry and his mother with the best of motives when their actions usually show the opposite.

From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:46
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
From: liz williams
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> Oh Claire, of course they wouldn't have paid rent for it! Everything we
> have heard about Tudor suggests he never paid for anything he didn't have
> to so why the hell would he pay rent?

They probably didn't, but do we know that they didn't? When did the system
of renting out houses to upper-class tenants (as opposed to tenant
farmers) - certainly in place by the 18th C - first come into force? Did it
exist at this time? When Richard stayed at a hall in Penrith while the
castle had builders in, for example, was he somebody's guest, or was he
renting the place, or what?

> And who to exactly?

To Cecily if she still owned it, or to the church if she had gifted her
property to the church.

There are a lot of unfounded assertions here.
 
Firstly no-one knows for sure that the Middleham Jewel or any other jewel belonged to Anne Warwick; we can't even trace the 'Pollard letter'.
Secondly Edward did indeed divide up her lands amongst her daughters who just happened to be married to his brothers, but he could have attainted her, as Richard did MB, and taken all her inheritances from her either before or after her death, in which case her lands would have gone to the Crown and he could have given them to whomsoever he wished, not necessarily the husbands of her daughters. So her lands did go to her heirs. Richard did not plan to do the same for MB. On her death her lands went to the Crown. So nothing sinister in Edward's plan; just the easiest way to keep the lands in the family without having to wait until the Countess died. And she was hardly reduced to a life of poverty. 


________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:54
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 

From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> Because Anne's mother could have been in a much worse position since she
> seems to have been at least thought to have been involved in her husband's
> treason. And I don't think the pension was "that" small.

Thanks to Richard she came out of it perfectly OK - it seems clear from the
bit of business about him complaining about the amont of money she'd spent
on a very expensive gold reliquary thing that he'd done the equivalent of
saying "If you need anything extra, just charge it to my account", and had
lived to regret it. And according to the reconstructions Middleham was very
comfortable, like a cosy country cottage multiplied to the size of a grand
hotel.

But the idea of Edward declaring her legally dead seems sinister and callous
(unless it was her own idea, of course!), and also suggests that he didn't
think he had any other legal way of taking her lands off her, so there was
apparently some reason he couldn't just take it by attainder.

"EileenB" wrote:
[snip]
> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
>
> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
>
> No mention of the other daughters or EW...

Carol responds:

Or Edward of Warwick's sister, Margaret, who is always left out of other people's biographies but must have been with him at Sheriff Hutton and captured with him to be put in MB's custody.

Carol

From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> I really find it baffling why you always seem to want to credit Henry and
> his mother with the best of motives when their actions usually show the
> opposite.

I want to consider the possibilities - not automatically assume that
everything they did was bad without even looking at it. That's what a lot
of people do to Richard. And I tend to start by giving everybody the
benefit of the doubt until otherwise proven - true dyed-in-the-wool villains
are fairly rare.

Absolutely Carol...no mention at all...by the way I got my info about Coldharbour from an article that Marie kindly sent me on loan from the Society as I was interested in this house and also Warwick's. The article "On Some London Houses of the Tudor Period" C.L. Kingsford 1920-21 is the same one that J&U derived their information on Coldharbour from. It detailed everything that was done to the house down to the nails. EoY is mentioned several times...decoration etc., down to a new key for her wardrobe..presumably a room. Very interesting. That is why I say EW was not there...and no mention of the other girls or young Warwick...where they were...who knows. But I guess if anyone can find out we can. Eileen

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> "EileenB" wrote:
> [snip]
> > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> >
> > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> >
> > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Or Edward of Warwick's sister, Margaret, who is always left out of other people's biographies but must have been with him at Sheriff Hutton and captured with him to be put in MB's custody.
>
> Carol
>

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?

Carol responds:

So did Henry confiscate Baynard's Castle because Duchess Cicely was the mother of "the traitor Gloucester" or just make himself/themselves at home on her property? Either way, the nerve of it passes belief and smacks of a deliberate insult (as does throwing out the heralds from Coldharbour, the home that Richard had given them). Where was Cecily at this time? Was she forced to treat the man responsible for her son's deposition and death as her house guest? That's reprehensible.

Carol

Didn't Cecily at some time in the 1470s move mainly to Crosby Place, which Richard refurbished - I know she was at times at Berkhamstead as well, but wasn't she at Crosby at the time Richard took the throne?



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 17:23
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?

Carol responds:

So did Henry confiscate Baynard's Castle because Duchess Cicely was the mother of "the traitor Gloucester" or just make himself/themselves at home on her property? Either way, the nerve of it passes belief and smacks of a deliberate insult (as does throwing out the heralds from Coldharbour, the home that Richard had given them). Where was Cecily at this time? Was she forced to treat the man responsible for her son's deposition and death as her house guest? That's reprehensible.

Carol

Hilary...If I recall correct Richard stayed with his mum at Baynards Castle when he first came to London but when Anne also arrived he rented Crosby Hall I presume from Mr Crosby:0) I have been in there...years ago...Its been moved to Chelsea of course but one time it was being used as a hostel...Now I think it is in private hands. It was lovely absolutely lovely...and I was thrilled beyond belief to stand where Richard and Anne had both stood..

In asnwer to Carol...Cicely was probably at Berkhamsted where Richard wrote to her...BUT the mystery is who owned it when Weasle stayed there...? Eileen
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Didn't Cecily at some time in the 1470s move mainly to Crosby Place, which Richard refurbished - I know she was at times at Berkhamstead as well, but wasn't she at Crosby at the time Richard took the throne?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 17:23
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>  
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> So did Henry confiscate Baynard's Castle because Duchess Cicely was the mother of "the traitor Gloucester" or just make himself/themselves at home on her property? Either way, the nerve of it passes belief and smacks of a deliberate insult (as does throwing out the heralds from Coldharbour, the home that Richard had given them). Where was Cecily at this time? Was she forced to treat the man responsible for her son's deposition and death as her house guest? That's reprehensible.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>

Claire M Jordan wrote:

"It's sharp practice, but in what way is it sharper or more reprehensible
than Edward declaring Anne's mother to be legally dead in order to take all
her property and lands and then pay her a smallish pension out of what had
been her own money?"

Doug here:
I don't think the situations were at all the same, other than a widow being
involved.
For one thing, did Henry actually ever pay Cicely a pension, or did she live
on her own income?
The removal of the Warwick/Beachamp/Neville lands/properties from the
Contess' control was, basically, a matter of national security. Anyone who
contolled *all* that power could overthrow Edward - it'd already happened
once. George was angling to control it all, one (*the*?) reason he opposed
Richard marrying Anne. Put George's ego - sense of entitlement might be a
better choice - together with the power those lands and properties meant
would mean putting his (Edward's) throne at risk - again.
Then there are the charges against the Countess that could have led to her
being attainted. While it's true she was never tried, it's not impossible to
think the trial *didn't* happen because the evidence was too solid against
her and Edward didn't relish executing the mother of the women his brothers
had married.
As I understand it, nothing like that applied in Cicely's case.
Doug

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?

Carol responds:

At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.

BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?

Carol

Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
Eileen

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
>
> BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
>
> Carol
>

More than worrying!



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 



--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?

Carol responds:

At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.

BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?

Carol

Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
>
> BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
>
> Carol
>

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> Where was Cecily at this time? Was she forced to treat the man responsible
> for her son's deposition and death as her house guest?

In a convent many miles away, where she'd been for years.

Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> >
> > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Baynard's castle was certainly more defensible than the Palace at Westminster:

Baynard's Castle
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/derekcardz/april16_0017_001.jpg

Old Westminster Palace during the middle ages
http://www.bookdrum.com/images/books/4088_o.jpg

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >  
> >
> > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > Pamela Garrett
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > >
> > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > >
> > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > >
> > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > >
> > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

SO - to get back to Coldharbour.  I read that it may have been destroyed in the Great Fire.  Are there any drawings of it anywhere?  I tried to google but mostly came up with Coldharbour Lane near Brixton (I used to live near there too)


________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:56
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
More than worrying!

________________________________
From: justcarol67 <mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 


--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?

Carol responds:

At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.

BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?

Carol

How gorgious it was...where the garden is now the terrace where MPs have their lunches and drinks...shame...Eileen

--- In , "Poet" <virginia_bard@...> wrote:
>> Old Westminster Palace during the middle ages
> http://www.bookdrum.com/images/books/4088_o.jpg
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > > Pamela Garrett
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > > >
> > > > Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > > >
> > > > "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > > >
> > > > No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > > >
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> >
> > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > >
> > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > >
> > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I thnk traditionally they met there. They must have all hung around while the King lay in bed - or at least originally.



________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:35
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  


________________________________
From: EileenB <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> >
> > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Here's an excerpt:
 
Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > à
> >
> > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > >
> > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Oooooops sorry...I posted twice by accident...

This is the Painted Chamber I am talking about...which was the Kings bedroom..

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/building/palace/estatehistory/the-middle-ages/the-royal-apartments/

I could be wrong but I thought that the chamber where the MPs hold their debates was on the site of St Stephens Chapel....another search is needed....back in another mo...Eileen



--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Here's an excerpt:
>  
> Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

A link to St Stephens Chapel.......


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Stephen's_Chapel

It says Anne Mowbray and Richard of Shrewsbury were married here...ahhhh







--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Here's an excerpt:
> >  
> > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

"EileenB" wrote:
>
> Liz..I bet Cis would so have loved to smack Mother in the face...Wollop!..I find it so strange that Cis left stuff in her will to MB and Weasle...There must be a sensible explanation...Was it maybe so that her, Cis' remaining relatives/servant etc., would not be punished or abused. Its totally bizarre...Eileen

Carol responds:

I think it's totally practical. Not only was Henry her grandson-in-law, so that she would be expected to leave him (and his dear mother) at least some small token, his wife and children were her own blood kindred, almost the only ones she had left, more important, he was king and could have made sure that her will was unproved or ignored if he and Mommy Dearest were left out of it. For the same reason, she could not openly leave any bequests to her "diabolical" daughter, Margaret, or mention her lost son, the rightful king.

I don't think we should read too much into whatever small bequests she made to Henry and MB; they were not made from love, we can be sure.

Which reminds me: Hilary, have you found out any more about the correspondence between Cecily and her daughter Margaret after Richard's death?

Carol

Carol...Im still not too sure...was young Warwick still alive at this stage. He was in Weasle's clutches..maybe a reason for Cicely to eat a little humble pie. But at the end of the day..I still find it bizarre...Of course they had their reasons...which we can only guess at...Eileen

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
> "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Liz..I bet Cis would so have loved to smack Mother in the face...Wollop!..I find it so strange that Cis left stuff in her will to MB and Weasle...There must be a sensible explanation...Was it maybe so that her, Cis' remaining relatives/servant etc., would not be punished or abused. Its totally bizarre...Eileen
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I think it's totally practical. Not only was Henry her grandson-in-law, so that she would be expected to leave him (and his dear mother) at least some small token, his wife and children were her own blood kindred, almost the only ones she had left, more important, he was king and could have made sure that her will was unproved or ignored if he and Mommy Dearest were left out of it. For the same reason, she could not openly leave any bequests to her "diabolical" daughter, Margaret, or mention her lost son, the rightful king.
>
> I don't think we should read too much into whatever small bequests she made to Henry and MB; they were not made from love, we can be sure.
>
> Which reminds me: Hilary, have you found out any more about the correspondence between Cecily and her daughter Margaret after Richard's death?
>
> Carol
>

We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Here's an excerpt:
>  
> Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?àà
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > à
> >
> > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > > Ã’â¬aà
> > >
> > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Im, at this moment,watching them do a facial reconstruction on some poor blighter who died at Pompeii.....hmmmm

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Here's an excerpt:
> >  
> > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > >
> > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

There are actual skulls inside the casts.never knew that..they exrayed him and now they are going to do a facial reconstruction...

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Im, at this moment,watching them do a facial reconstruction on some poor blighter who died at Pompeii.....hmmmm
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's an excerpt:
> > >  
> > > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > > Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Back on the case Carol! Will have a look tomorrow.



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 21:33
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Carol...Im still not too sure...was young Warwick still alive at this stage. He was in Weasle's clutches..maybe a reason for Cicely to eat a little humble pie. But at the end of the day..I still find it bizarre...Of course they had their reasons...which we can only guess at...Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
> "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Liz..I bet Cis would so have loved to smack Mother in the face...Wollop!..I find it so strange that Cis left stuff in her will to MB and Weasle...There must be a sensible explanation...Was it maybe so that her, Cis' remaining relatives/servant etc., would not be punished or abused. Its totally bizarre...Eileen
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I think it's totally practical. Not only was Henry her grandson-in-law, so that she would be expected to leave him (and his dear mother) at least some small token, his wife and children were her own blood kindred, almost the only ones she had left, more important, he was king and could have made sure that her will was unproved or ignored if he and Mommy Dearest were left out of it. For the same reason, she could not openly leave any bequests to her "diabolical" daughter, Margaret, or mention her lost son, the rightful king.
>
> I don't think we should read too much into whatever small bequests she made to Henry and MB; they were not made from love, we can be sure.
>
> Which reminds me: Hilary, have you found out any more about the correspondence between Cecily and her daughter Margaret after Richard's death?
>
> Carol
>

Me too!!



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 21:45
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Im, at this moment,watching them do a facial reconstruction on some poor blighter who died at Pompeii.....hmmmm

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Here's an excerpt:
> > à
> > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > à
> >
> > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?Ã’â¬aàÒâ¬aà
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > > Ã’â¬aà
> > >
> > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ã’Æ'ââ¬Å¡Ã’â¬aà
> > > >
> > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

That poor baby in the cot...and that poor dog...

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Me too!!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 21:45
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Im, at this moment,watching them do a facial reconstruction on some poor blighter who died at Pompeii.....hmmmm
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's an excerpt:
> > >  
> > > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > >
> > > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > > Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)

If he was on a throne the "bottom" of it is probably a given.....

Yes. And the number of posts has bone waaaaay up again, like arrows at Agincourt. At the moment, Yahoogroups is sending out a digest every 20 minutes.

I'm going back into my cave until Richard gets his discussion list back.

~Weds


--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
>
> Carol

Will watch it later and am going to the exhibition at the British Museum in two weeks!



________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 21:49
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
Me too!!

________________________________
From: EileenB <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 21:45
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Im, at this moment,watching them do a facial reconstruction on some poor blighter who died at Pompeii.....hmmmm

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Here's an excerpt:
> > à
> > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > à
> >
> > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?Ã’â¬aàÒâ¬aà
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > > Ã’â¬aà
> > >
> > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ã’Æ'ââ¬Å¡Ã’â¬aà
> > > >
> > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Quite sad..those poor people...That is when I miss London..it cannot be beat for museums...my favourite...the London Museum...It really touches on the human side of stuff...


--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Will watch it later and am going to the exhibition at the British Museum in two weeks!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 21:49
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>  
> Me too!!
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 21:45
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Im, at this moment,watching them do a facial reconstruction on some poor blighter who died at Pompeii.....hmmmm
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's an excerpt:
> > >  
> > > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > >
> > > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > > Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> Me too!!

Ah, I see it - it's not on till 10:35 up here. Interesting but a bit
gruesome, though, all those poor people.

Btw, talking about reconstructions, I don't think this is worth starting a
new thread but I was thinking earlier about Richard's high fish diet. First
people said that just meant he ate a soldier's diet and he was a soldier,
but more recently somebody - Carol? - was saying he didn't spend all *that*
much time as a soldier so we're back with the high fish diet being a
mystery.

Anyway, the reason soldiers ate a lot to fish was apparently because it
could be dried and carried around long term, like canned rations today, so
what I was thinking was, moorland location, Little Ice Age, maybe Middleham
got snowed in for weeks or even months every year and they kept big barrels
of dried fish at the castle as emergency rations.

From: EileenB
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> ..it cannot be beat for museums...my favourite...the London Museum...It
> really touches on the human side of stuff...

Do they still have all those dioramas of London street scenes that I
remember from the 1960s?

Wow......I wondered how they did that. From the television, it looks like they scanned Richard skull and did the recreation via computer generated visualization. That is another thing I would like to hear about in greater detail. Also, remember the remains found in London that was named a plague burial site? Several of those skeletons looked like they had curved vertebrae. I do see a lot of people coming into the U. S. with very distinct bowed legs. Much of that is attributed to poor nutrition. Once again, I hunger for more, more, more information.

On Mar 27, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:



There are actual skulls inside the casts.never knew that..they exrayed him and now they are going to do a facial reconstruction...

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Im, at this moment,watching them do a facial reconstruction on some poor blighter who died at Pompeii.....hmmmm
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > ý
> >
> > Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's an excerpt:
> > > ýýý
> > > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > > ýýý
> > >
> > > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers?ýýýýýýýý ýýýýýýýý
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ýýýýýýýý
> > > >
> > > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ýýý'ýýýýýýýýýýýýýýý
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > > Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I found the Museum of London really disappointing when I went a few years ago.  In fact, I live in Colchester and think the museum here is as good, if not better.


________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 22:10
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
From: EileenB
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> ..it cannot be beat for museums...my favourite...the London Museum...It
> really touches on the human side of stuff...

Do they still have all those dioramas of London street scenes that I
remember from the 1960s?

I never in all these years knew that the skull/bones were still in the cast....I thought they had poured the plaster into the.......oh never mind...I must be thick! :0) Eileen

--- In , Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> Wow......I wondered how they did that. From the television, it looks like they scanned Richard skull and did the recreation via computer generated visualization. That is another thing I would like to hear about in greater detail. Also, remember the remains found in London that was named a plague burial site? Several of those skeletons looked like they had curved vertebrae. I do see a lot of people coming into the U. S. with very distinct bowed legs. Much of that is attributed to poor nutrition. Once again, I hunger for more, more, more information.
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> There are actual skulls inside the casts.never knew that..they exrayed him and now they are going to do a facial reconstruction...
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > Im, at this moment,watching them do a facial reconstruction on some poor blighter who died at Pompeii.....hmmmm
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > We do indeed. Back to Louis XIV :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:49
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > > Hilary...lol...in the article I just posted its says there was a canopied bed at the end of the room...now in the article you posted it says that Edward sat on the royal throne in the room. Am I to understand that Edward also had a throne in his bedroom...? We have to get to the bottom of this...:0)
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Here's an excerpt:
> > > > ÂÂ
> > > > Be it remembered that on Tuesday 6 October, in the twelfth year of the reign of
> > > > King Edward the fourth of England since the conquest [1472], with the lord king
> > > > sitting on the royal throne in the Painted Chamber within his palace of
> > > > Westminster, there being also present many lords spiritual and temporal and the
> > > > commons of the realm of England assembled at the parliament summoned there by
> > > > royal authority; the venerable father the bishop of Rochester (Robert, bishop of
> > > > Bath and Wells, the chancellor of England, then being absent and rather ill)
> > > > memorably declared and announced by order of the lord king the reason for
> > > > summoning the aforesaid parliament, taking as his theme these words:[blank]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 20:38
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > > >
> > > > Hang on Hilary..Il take a look to see if the article I read is still round...back in a mo..Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But the Parliament Rolls say they are meeting in the Painted Chamber - honest. Look at them online at the National Archives. Are there two Painted Chambers? ÂÂÂ
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:36
> > > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > >
> > > > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > > > Eileen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Carol
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I could spend weeks in the British Museum, and the Louvre...actually any large and wonderful museum in most great cities.
Another world about on-line behavior. I was not offended. For me this is wonderful. I am on a group with a group of my high school friends. The week the main topic is "Dancing With the Stars", so this is like being in an audited class at Cambridge or Oxford!!!!!

On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:10 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...<mailto:whitehound@...>> wrote:



From: EileenB
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> ..it cannot be beat for museums...my favourite...the London Museum...It
> really touches on the human side of stuff...

Do they still have all those dioramas of London street scenes that I
remember from the 1960s?

OT ...Oh really!...Another place I loved...small but interesting...was the Wallace Collection...in London. I never got around to going to a lovely Georgian house in Spitalfields. The gentleman who owned it kept in in a time wharp...You had to book for that...so much to see. Now when I go to London I just about have the time to visit family...Eileen

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I found the Museum of London really disappointing when I went a few years ago.  In fact, I live in Colchester and think the museum here is as good, if not better.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 22:10
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>  
> From: EileenB
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:03 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > ..it cannot be beat for museums...my favourite...the London Museum...It
> > really touches on the human side of stuff...
>
> Do they still have all those dioramas of London street scenes that I
> remember from the 1960s?
>
>
>
>
>
>

I'm in Ipswich - the Boroughs work together on this, as you know.
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: Re: OT - museums (was MB and Coldharbour...





I found the Museum of London really disappointing when I went a few years ago. In fact, I live in Colchester and think the museum here is as good, if not better.

________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 22:10
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


From: EileenB
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> ..it cannot be beat for museums...my favourite...the London Museum...It
> really touches on the human side of stuff...

Do they still have all those dioramas of London street scenes that I
remember from the 1960s?

Pamela, even after 500 years , it makes me sad. I can imagine how his mother sisters or even his ex-mistress must have felt. Let alone his two surviving children:(

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:

> Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
>
> Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>>
>> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
>> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>>
>>
>> Â
>>
>> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>>
>> Eileen
>>
>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
>>>
>>> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
>>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
>>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>>>
>>> ÃÂ
>>>
>>> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
>>> Pamela Garrett
>>>
>>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
>>>>
>>>> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
>>>>
>>>> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
>>>>
>>>> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
>>>>
>>>> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
>>>>
>>>> Eileen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a heroine..Eileen

--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Pamela, even after 500 years , it makes me sad. I can imagine how his mother sisters or even his ex-mistress must have felt. Let alone his two surviving children:(
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> > Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
> >
> > Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> >> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> >> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >>
> >>
> >> Â
> >>
> >> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >>
> >> Eileen
> >>
> >> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> >>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >>>
> >>> ÂÂ
> >>>
> >>> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> >>> Pamela Garrett
> >>>
> >>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> >>>>
> >>>> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> >>>>
> >>>> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> >>>>
> >>>> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> >>>>
> >>>> Eileen
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Carol wrote <BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?>
Omg! Seriously? Haven't hear from the Tudor guy for a while! He made that one angry comment and left. Well, I was hoping he did........

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> More than worrying!
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
> >
> > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
>
> BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>

Did Richard and Anne slept together in his bedroom? Or did she have her own bedroom?

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 3:36 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > >
> > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Ishita...I think what Carol meant was that there had been an awful lot of posts about HT...
But anyway...what "Tudor guy" do you speak of....I must have missed it...Eileen


--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Carol wrote <BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?>
> Omg! Seriously? Haven't hear from the Tudor guy for a while! He made that one angry comment and left. Well, I was hoping he did........
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > More than worrying!
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> >
> > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Well as Hilary has found out that there was a throne in the big bedroom (The Painted Chamber) I guess they must moved into Anne's room through lack of space. But seriously....I have gained the impression that most Kings and Queens did have different bedrooms, apartments even. Probably because a lot of kings wanted mistresses...Henry Vlll, Edward lV, Charles lst...spring to mind.

--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Did Richard and Anne slept together in his bedroom? Or did she have her own bedroom?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 3:36 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was almost alone in a very hostile world. I don't suppose her grandaughters had much to do with her and I believe that Anne was dead and Margaret was in Burgundy. Was Elizabeth still alive? Very sad.

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a heroine..Eileen
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Pamela, even after 500 years , it makes me sad. I can imagine how his mother sisters or even his ex-mistress must have felt. Let alone his two surviving children:(
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Pamela Bain <pbain@> wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......
> > >
> > > On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
> > >
> > > Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > >> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> > >> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Â
> > >>
> > >> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >>
> > >> Eileen
> > >>
> > >> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ________________________________
> > >>> From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > >>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >>>
> > >>> ÂÂ
> > >>>
> > >>> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > >>> Pamela Garrett
> > >>>
> > >>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Eileen
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Very under-rated. Yes to me too. I still think of them very much like the Kennedys.



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:29
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a heroine..Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Pamela, even after 500 years , it makes me sad. I can imagine how his mother sisters or even his ex-mistress must have felt. Let alone his two surviving children:(
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> > Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
> >
> > Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> >> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> >> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >>
> >>
> >> Ã
> >>
> >> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >>
> >> Eileen
> >>
> >> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com/>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com/>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> >>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >>>
> >>> Ã’â¬aÃ
> >>>
> >>> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> >>> Pamela Garrett
> >>>
> >>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com/>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> >>>>
> >>>> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> >>>>
> >>>> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> >>>>
> >>>> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> >>>>
> >>>> Eileen
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

The Painted Chamber apart (that's for tomorrow) JAH says that Anne and Richard were unusual in that they slept together ie that the bit about him having to shun her bed was unusual because kings and queens usually slept apart.


________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:37
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Did Richard and Anne slept together in his bedroom? Or did she have her own bedroom?

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 3:36 PM, "EileenB" <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com> wrote:

> Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > >
> > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Elizabeth of Suffolk?...I believe so. What other woman in history has had to deal with one son executing another? How on earth did she cope in the day leading up to George;s execution? Did she know the truth of what was behind the execution...that George had probably found out about the marriage to EB? If that was the reason and Cicely knew how could she have contained herself. God...she must have been made of stern stuff...

--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was almost alone in a very hostile world. I don't suppose her grandaughters had much to do with her and I believe that Anne was dead and Margaret was in Burgundy. Was Elizabeth still alive? Very sad.
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a heroine..Eileen
> >
> > --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Pamela, even after 500 years , it makes me sad. I can imagine how his mother sisters or even his ex-mistress must have felt. Let alone his two surviving children:(
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Mar 27, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Pamela Bain <pbain@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......
> > > >
> > > > On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
> > > >
> > > > Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > >> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> > > >> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Â
> > > >>
> > > >> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > >>
> > > >> Eileen
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ________________________________
> > > >>> From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > > >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > > >>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ÂÂ
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > > >>> Pamela Garrett
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Eileen
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

You did. I don't actually think he was that angry, just that he belonged to this and H7 and came from York and I think we demonstrated that we were sympathetic to H - when the sympathy was warranted. Thereafter I think he retreated.



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:38
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Ishita...I think what Carol meant was that there had been an awful lot of posts about HT...
But anyway...what "Tudor guy" do you speak of....I must have missed it...Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Carol wrote <BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?>
> Omg! Seriously? Haven't hear from the Tudor guy for a while! He made that one angry comment and left. Well, I was hoping he did........
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > More than worrying!
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> >
> > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

I didn't realise the Painted Chamber would throw up such a can of worms - only read the Parl minutes when snowed in. Thought it was the equivalent of the Star Chamber. Shall now retire myself!!
 

________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:43
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Well as Hilary has found out that there was a throne in the big bedroom (The Painted Chamber) I guess they must moved into Anne's room through lack of space. But seriously....I have gained the impression that most Kings and Queens did have different bedrooms, apartments even. Probably because a lot of kings wanted mistresses...Henry Vlll, Edward lV, Charles lst...spring to mind.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Did Richard and Anne slept together in his bedroom? Or did she have her own bedroom?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 3:36 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Ah...so quite a uneventful encounter...and he went off quite happily...nice..

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> You did. I don't actually think he was that angry, just that he belonged to this and H7 and came from York and I think we demonstrated that we were sympathetic to H - when the sympathy was warranted. Thereafter I think he retreated.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:38
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Ishita...I think what Carol meant was that there had been an awful lot of posts about HT...
> But anyway...what "Tudor guy" do you speak of....I must have missed it...Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Carol wrote <BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?>
> > Omg! Seriously? Haven't hear from the Tudor guy for a while! He made that one angry comment and left. Well, I was hoping he did........
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > More than worrying!
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > >
> > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: EileenB
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> heroine..Eileen

Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
her going....

Eileen, so would I ! To lose 3 grown sons to violence and all those little children at infancy, would have totally undone someone less strong!

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:29 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a heroine..Eileen
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
> >
> > Pamela, even after 500 years , it makes me sad. I can imagine how his mother sisters or even his ex-mistress must have felt. Let alone his two surviving children:(
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, I had thought about that. My gosh how hard for those few who remained.......
> > >
> > > On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:38 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes...your probably right there Hilary.....Westminster Palace seems to have been pretty much *open plan*.
> > >
> > > Can you imagine the ransacking of Richard's apartments after his death...the jewels, the rich clothing, all his private stuff....? :0/ Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Yes it is a strange place - but I suppose more fortified than Westminster. Perhaps he didn't know how the citizens might react?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > >> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 22:18
> > >> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Â
> > >>
> > >> I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >>
> > >> Eileen
> > >>
> > >> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> It shows how you can read the same thing two different ways. I read J & U to imply that Henry met up with MB in Woking/Guildford where she owned estates from the Staffords; that was after he had spent two weeks at Baynards Castle from the 7th Sept, meaning they met up about 21st? Now I'm not sure; you can take it either way but it makes sense she kept out of the capital until things were really secure. And as you say, why Baynard's?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ________________________________
> > >>> From: Pamela <ownwrite101@>
> > >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 21:52
> > >>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >>>
> > >>> ÃÂ
> > >>>
> > >>> Eileen...do you have a spare sick bucket? Why does this rankle so? Yes, I know, to the victor go the spoils and all that, but for some reason what you wrote here just makes me want to upchuck, especially turning Coldharbour over to "Mother" and Weasel and Mom sojourning together at Baynard's. Likewise, it's always sickened me that she ended up with Richard's Book of Hours.
> > >>> Pamela Garrett
> > >>>
> > >>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ive gleaned more info from the Jones and Underwood book The King's Mother which was touched on earlier today re where the hell everybody was after Bosworth.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Weasle and mother had "an emotional reunion" (me: pass the sick bucket) and spent two weeks at Baynards Castle (me: was that not the home of Proud Cis??). He then travelled to Guildford and then on to Woking in the company of Mother. It was here in one of his earliest grants that he provided his Mother with the splendid London house Coldharbour. (Me: it was close to Baynards Castle and opened down to the Thames. Very nice!...) A rush of "repairs and alternations' were made to make it suitable for Mother. Carpenters, joiners, glazers etc., worked hurriedly to renovate it. A scutcheon of Margarets arms were set in a window overlooking the river (me: Nice).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "At Coldharbour rooms were made ready for Henry's (aka Weasels) intended bride EoY"....Accommodation was also made ready for Buckingham's son, young Edward Stafford.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Most interesting was Margaret's custody of Edward, son of Clarence"...Collins continues that Margaret acted as a "jailor on behalf of her son' of this poor young man...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> No mention of the other daughters or EW...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Eileen
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Well he's probably still reading, but despite the odd humorous remark I do think we're fair when the chips are down. He can hardly expect us to be great H7 admirers, but I think we're fairer than a lot of anti-Richard folks who have him as the great child murderer.


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Ah...so quite a uneventful encounter...and he went off quite happily...nice..

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> You did. I don't actually think he was that angry, just that he belonged to this and H7 and came from York and I think we demonstrated that we were sympathetic to H - when the sympathy was warranted. Thereafter I think he retreated.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:38
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Ishita...I think what Carol meant was that there had been an awful lot of posts about HT...
> But anyway...what "Tudor guy" do you speak of....I must have missed it...Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Carol wrote <BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?>
> > Omg! Seriously? Haven't hear from the Tudor guy for a while! He made that one angry comment and left. Well, I was hoping he did........
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > More than worrying!
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > >
> > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ooh, the person that hosts the Henry Tudor Society page came breezing in and told us how horrible we are to be "trolling" at his page. I did visit their page and commented there to my eternal regret....:((

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> Ishita...I think what Carol meant was that there had been an awful lot of posts about HT...
> But anyway...what "Tudor guy" do you speak of....I must have missed it...Eileen
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
> >
> > Carol wrote <BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?>
> > Omg! Seriously? Haven't hear from the Tudor guy for a while! He made that one angry comment and left. Well, I was hoping he did........
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > > More than worrying!
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > >
> > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Since Richard did not have mistresses and had a cramped bedroom, I am sending him to Anne's room. And there is the thing about " sharing bed"! Poor poor couple:(

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:43 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> Well as Hilary has found out that there was a throne in the big bedroom (The Painted Chamber) I guess they must moved into Anne's room through lack of space. But seriously....I have gained the impression that most Kings and Queens did have different bedrooms, apartments even. Probably because a lot of kings wanted mistresses...Henry Vlll, Edward lV, Charles lst...spring to mind.
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
> >
> > Did Richard and Anne slept together in his bedroom? Or did she have her own bedroom?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 3:36 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Lol...The chamber where today the MPs gather to make laws and diss each other is situated where St Stephens chapel stood. The Painted Chamber was the bedroom/chamber of the Kings in Westminster Palace..The royal bed stood on a dais at one end and the King used the rest of the chamber to entertain etc., It was named after the wonderful medieval paintings that covered the walls. I think some may have survived the fire which destroyed the palace including St Stephens chapel and are in the British Museum....It was wonderful...
> > > Of course all that remains now are some vaults and Westminster Hall...which is fabulous..If ever you get the chance go in there...absolutely breathtaking..so much history has taken place in that Hall....but I could go on all day about Westminster Palace...If only it had not been burnt down...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eh? Parliament met in the Painted Chamber. Was the King in bed, you know like Louis XIV? Now I am confused - I have this vision :) :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:48
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Carol...yes...I can see this could prove a problem...after all Kings used the same bedchamber that is the famous Painted Chamber...lots of information on that room around. It must have been absolutely spell binding. The royal bed would have been in the same position....can you imagine poor old Henry having to go to bed in the same spot, climb into the bed in the same spot, drift off to sleep in the same spot and wake up in the same spot as Richard. He not only usurped the throne he usurped the bedroom as well...!
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Oh yeah Ishita...I remember that...still you were very brave to enter into alien country without any backup....Good on you!...Eileen...in bed...hot water bottle...

--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Ooh, the person that hosts the Henry Tudor Society page came breezing in and told us how horrible we are to be "trolling" at his page. I did visit their page and commented there to my eternal regret....:((
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> > Ishita...I think what Carol meant was that there had been an awful lot of posts about HT...
> > But anyway...what "Tudor guy" do you speak of....I must have missed it...Eileen
> >
> > --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Carol wrote <BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?>
> > > Omg! Seriously? Haven't hear from the Tudor guy for a while! He made that one angry comment and left. Well, I was hoping he did........
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Mar 27, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > More than worrying!
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@>
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Lol! Good night:)

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:10 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> Oh yeah Ishita...I remember that...still you were very brave to enter into alien country without any backup....Good on you!...Eileen...in bed...hot water bottle...
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ooh, the person that hosts the Henry Tudor Society page came breezing in and told us how horrible we are to be "trolling" at his page. I did visit their page and commented there to my eternal regret....:((
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Ishita...I think what Carol meant was that there had been an awful lot of posts about HT...
> > > But anyway...what "Tudor guy" do you speak of....I must have missed it...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Carol wrote <BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?>
> > > > Omg! Seriously? Haven't hear from the Tudor guy for a while! He made that one angry comment and left. Well, I was hoping he did........
> > > >
> > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > >
> > > > On Mar 27, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > More than worrying!
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@>
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 18:33
> > > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose its ambiguous...It is not clear whether Weasle met up with Mother at Baynards Castle or Guildford. I would have thought that MB would have travelled up to London (Baynards Castle) to reunite with Son as soon as possible. We can be sure though that Weasle stayed at Baynards Castle from the 7 September. I wonder why he did not stay at Westminster Palace...?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > At a guess, Richard's servants and courtiers were clearing out their belongings and, I hope, salvaging what they could of Richard's--or Henry's men were ransacking the place. Can you imagine Henry walking into the king's chamber still decorated as Richard had left it in May, knowing that he had usurped the throne and arranged the death of the man who had recently lived there? I think he would be haunted by Richard's ghost if he did that--if he wasn't already haunted by nightmares of Richard charging toward him at Bosworth. Bad enough that he would just barge in take over Baynard's Castle. Sorry. Not feeling charitable toward Henry at this moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, has anyone noticed that Henry has also usurped this list of late?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

From: EileenB
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> heroine..Eileen


According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York.  And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.

Jonathan



________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 
From: EileenB
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> heroine..Eileen

Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
her going....

--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was almost alone in a very hostile world. I don't suppose her grandaughters had much to do with her and I believe that Anne was dead and Margaret was in Burgundy. Was Elizabeth still alive? Very sad.

Carol responds:

Yes. Elizabeth (who, by the way, had named her last son Richard, presumably after her younger brother while he was still Duke of Gloucester) outlived her mother. Cecily died in 1495, Elizabeth in 1503. I don't suppose that Elizabeth was very happy, either. Her husband, the Duke of Suffolk, seems to have come to terms with Henry VII, but her eldest son (a key supporter of Richard's despite being only about 22), had escaped to Burgundy after accepting a general pardon from Henry and died fighting him in the Battle of Stoke. Her husband is said to have died of grief soon afterwards. Her fourth son, Edmund, became a Yorkist "pretender" and fled to Burgundy in 1501 (two of his older brothers having become priests in what I assume was self-defense). Whether she and her mother corresponded or she visited her mother, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if both of them were involved with the Yorkist "pretenders" behind the scenes. Both she and her husband took part in Richard's coronation. However lukewarm her husband's support for Richard may have been, I'm guessing that Elizabeth. like her eldest son, supported him wholeheartedly and was devastated by the outcome of Bosworth Field.

We don't know, of course, but what evidence we do have seems to support my conjecture. If seemed to accept Henry, it may well have been to protect her sons or cover up her own involvement in her "diabolical" sister's plots against Henry. (Margaret, after all, was safely in Burgundy and could oppose the Tudor usurper openly.)

Carol

Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:

>
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> her going....
>
>
>
>

From: Ishita Bandyo
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> Since Richard did not have mistresses and had a cramped bedroom, I am
> sending him to Anne's room. And there is the thing about " sharing bed"!
> Poor poor couple:(

Or enthusiastically happy couple....

From: ricard1an
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit
> over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was
> almost alone in a very hostile world.

She was in a convent, though, wasn't she, so although she'd lost most of her
family she would have had the nuns around her and they possibly served as a
surrogate family.

But what on earth did she feel about Edward killing George? It's hard to
believe she could have agreed with it, so she must on one level have lost
Edward while he was still alive.

If she gave any money to Henry willingly, perhaps it was so he could use it
to pay her granddaughter's gambling debts.... I'm not joking, either - if
he was mean and EoY was expensive, Cecily might have agreed to sub her by
that route.

Since Cicely and EW were not it good terms, I am not sure how attached she would be to her granddaughter. Who was illegitimate to boot and married to the usurper who not only killed her son but let his men degrade and humiliate his body.
Maybe I am thinking in 21st century way but I really really don't get it.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:11 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:

> From: ricard1an
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:46 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit
> > over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was
> > almost alone in a very hostile world.
>
> She was in a convent, though, wasn't she, so although she'd lost most of her
> family she would have had the nuns around her and they possibly served as a
> surrogate family.
>
> But what on earth did she feel about Edward killing George? It's hard to
> believe she could have agreed with it, so she must on one level have lost
> Edward while he was still alive.
>
> If she gave any money to Henry willingly, perhaps it was so he could use it
> to pay her granddaughter's gambling debts.... I'm not joking, either - if
> he was mean and EoY was expensive, Cecily might have agreed to sub her by
> that route.
>
>

Thank you for that Carol. Yet more interesting pieces in the jigsaw.

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was almost alone in a very hostile world. I don't suppose her grandaughters had much to do with her and I believe that Anne was dead and Margaret was in Burgundy. Was Elizabeth still alive? Very sad.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Yes. Elizabeth (who, by the way, had named her last son Richard, presumably after her younger brother while he was still Duke of Gloucester) outlived her mother. Cecily died in 1495, Elizabeth in 1503. I don't suppose that Elizabeth was very happy, either. Her husband, the Duke of Suffolk, seems to have come to terms with Henry VII, but her eldest son (a key supporter of Richard's despite being only about 22), had escaped to Burgundy after accepting a general pardon from Henry and died fighting him in the Battle of Stoke. Her husband is said to have died of grief soon afterwards. Her fourth son, Edmund, became a Yorkist "pretender" and fled to Burgundy in 1501 (two of his older brothers having become priests in what I assume was self-defense). Whether she and her mother corresponded or she visited her mother, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if both of them were involved with the Yorkist "pretenders" behind the scenes. Both she and her husband took part in Richard's coronation. However lukewarm her husband's support for Richard may have been, I'm guessing that Elizabeth. like her eldest son, supported him wholeheartedly and was devastated by the outcome of Bosworth Field.
>
> We don't know, of course, but what evidence we do have seems to support my conjecture. If seemed to accept Henry, it may well have been to protect her sons or cover up her own involvement in her "diabolical" sister's plots against Henry. (Margaret, after all, was safely in Burgundy and could oppose the Tudor usurper openly.)
>
> Carol
>

Just a few points:
1) The Earl of Lincoln died in 1487 and his father four years later.
2) It was Edmund who first left for the continent, in about 1499.
3) Surely Lord Richard (k. 1525) was not Elizabeth's last son as he claimed to be Duke of Suffolk whilst his brother Lord William was still alive in the Tower (fl.1538).
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 12:58 AM
Subject: Richard's sister, Elizabeth, Duchess of Suffolk: MB and Coldharbour...





--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was almost alone in a very hostile world. I don't suppose her grandaughters had much to do with her and I believe that Anne was dead and Margaret was in Burgundy. Was Elizabeth still alive? Very sad.

Carol responds:

Yes. Elizabeth (who, by the way, had named her last son Richard, presumably after her younger brother while he was still Duke of Gloucester) outlived her mother. Cecily died in 1495, Elizabeth in 1503. I don't suppose that Elizabeth was very happy, either. Her husband, the Duke of Suffolk, seems to have come to terms with Henry VII, but her eldest son (a key supporter of Richard's despite being only about 22), had escaped to Burgundy after accepting a general pardon from Henry and died fighting him in the Battle of Stoke. Her husband is said to have died of grief soon afterwards. Her fourth son, Edmund, became a Yorkist "pretender" and fled to Burgundy in 1501 (two of his older brothers having become priests in what I assume was self-defense). Whether she and her mother corresponded or she visited her mother, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if both of them were involved with the Yorkist "pretenders" behind the scenes. Both she and her husband took part in Richard's coronation. However lukewarm her husband's support for Richard may have been, I'm guessing that Elizabeth. like her eldest son, supported him wholeheartedly and was devastated by the outcome of Bosworth Field.

We don't know, of course, but what evidence we do have seems to support my conjecture. If seemed to accept Henry, it may well have been to protect her sons or cover up her own involvement in her "diabolical" sister's plots against Henry. (Margaret, after all, was safely in Burgundy and could oppose the Tudor usurper openly.)

Carol

From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?


It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right.  It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period.  He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483.  The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.

You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting.  He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set.  His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.

Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing.  The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles.  The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.

Jonathan







________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 
Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:

>
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> her going....
>
>
>
>

Illegitimacy or not, I find he builds a very plausible figure of her as power-broker in the House of York. And one which also extended to her Neville connections. To me she is perhaps the most interesting of them all; a good biography is long overdue. As you say, it's all speculation, but plausible speculation (again illegitmacy aside).  I did think Liz hit the nail on the head when she compared the Yorks to the Kennedys. The Cis I have in my head would have expected the next true heir to pick up the baton, at whatever cost. And in her mind she would have reconciled their fate with the fact that they did their duty.   



________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 11:49
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 


From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: ">
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?

It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right.  It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period.  He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483.  The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.

You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting.  He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set.  His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.

Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing.  The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles.  The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: ">
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 
Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:

>
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> her going....
>
>
>
>

I may have missed something here, but does Jones publish his theory on Cicely Neville in a particular book?

Jan.

Sent from my iPad

On 28 Mar 2013, at 11:49, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:

>
> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> To: ">
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
>
> It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right. It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period. He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483. The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
>
> You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting. He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set. His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.
>
> Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing. The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles. The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> To: ">
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > From: EileenB
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > heroine..Eileen
> >
> > According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> > From: EileenB
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > heroine..Eileen
> >
> > Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> > to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> > may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> > her going....
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bosworth 1485 - the Psychology of a Battle.



________________________________
From: Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 12:24
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 

I may have missed something here, but does Jones publish his theory on Cicely Neville in a particular book?

Jan.

Sent from my iPad

On 28 Mar 2013, at 11:49, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:

>
> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> To: ">
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
>
> It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right. It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period. He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483. The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
>
> You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting. He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set. His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.
>
> Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing. The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles. The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> To: ">
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > From: EileenB
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > heroine..Eileen
> >
> > According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> > From: EileenB
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > heroine..Eileen
> >
> > Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> > to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> > may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> > her going....
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I think it's in 'Bosworth 1485 The Psychology of a Battle'. I thought it was really interesting.

--- In , Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
>
> I may have missed something here, but does Jones publish his theory on Cicely Neville in a particular book?
>
> Jan.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 28 Mar 2013, at 11:49, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> > To: "@[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> >
> > It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right. It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period. He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483. The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
> >
> > You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting. He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set. His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.
> >
> > Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing. The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles. The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> > To: "@[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > heroine..Eileen
> > >
> > > According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> > > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > heroine..Eileen
> > >
> > > Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> > > to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> > > may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> > > her going....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

It is very unlikely that we will ever know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. However, I don't think that we should stop speculating or running bits of information past one another. Michael Jones' book is worth reading even if you don't agree with every thing that he says. Every bit of evidence that we find will put another piece in the jigsaw and surely our speculation is as valid as anything the traditionalists come up with, as a lot of their information is based on merely on speculation with no evidence to back it up. Excellent analysis of the task ahead of us Jonathon.

--- In , Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
> > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
>
>
> It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right.  It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period.  He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483.  The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
>
> You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting.  He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set.  His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.
>
> Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing.  The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles.  The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
> Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > From: EileenB
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > heroine..Eileen
> >
> > According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> > From: EileenB
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > heroine..Eileen
> >
> > Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> > to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> > may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> > her going....
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, he's written one of the best and most radical books covering the period.  It has a unique - and uniquely human - perspective, which draws attention to details that aren't really addressed by more conventional histories.  You don't have to accept everything he says - far from it, in a couple of cases! - but even the elements you disagree with are challenging and thought-provoking.

Jonathan




________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 12:20
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 
Illegitimacy or not, I find he builds a very plausible figure of her as power-broker in the House of York. And one which also extended to her Neville connections. To me she is perhaps the most interesting of them all; a good biography is long overdue. As you say, it's all speculation, but plausible speculation (again illegitmacy aside).  I did think Liz hit the nail on the head when she compared the Yorks to the Kennedys. The Cis I have in my head would have expected the next true heir to pick up the baton, at whatever cost. And in her mind she would have reconciled their fate with the fact that they did their duty.   

________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: ">
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 11:49
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 


From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: ">
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?

It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right.  It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period.  He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483.  The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.

You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting.  He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set.  His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.

Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing.  The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles.  The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: ">
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

 
Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:

>
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> her going....
>
>
>
>

We really do need a website, where the collective wisdom about each of the
main characters involved can be linked to the story!

A J

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 7:41 AM, ricard1an <maryfriend@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> It is very unlikely that we will ever know the truth, the whole truth and
> nothing but the truth. However, I don't think that we should stop
> speculating or running bits of information past one another. Michael Jones'
> book is worth reading even if you don't agree with every thing that he
> says. Every bit of evidence that we find will put another piece in the
> jigsaw and surely our speculation is as valid as anything the
> traditionalists come up with, as a lot of their information is based on
> merely on speculation with no evidence to back it up. Excellent analysis of
> the task ahead of us Jonathon.
>
>
> --- In , Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> > To: "
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> >
> >
> > It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and
> Cecily's acute sense of lineal right.ý It looks at clues such as her
> (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the
> Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the
> illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period.ý He also places her and her
> residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483.ý
> The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of
> events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different
> ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
> >
> > You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but
> the details are very interesting.ý He admits he's building a psychological
> case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he
> says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set.ý
> His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as
> a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to
> Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the
> former and see the latter as the defining factor.
> >
> > Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing.ý The
> paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying
> to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of
> guttering candles.ý The important thing is to remain honest about that and
> accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
>
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> > To: "
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > ý
> > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did
> she
> > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I
> imagine
> > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > heroine..Eileen
> > >
> > > According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York.
> And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> > > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did
> she
> > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I
> imagine
> > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > heroine..Eileen
> > >
> > > Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her
> husband had
> > > to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending),
> so it
> > > may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to
> keep
> > > her going....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: A J Hibbard
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:15 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

We really do need a website, where the collective wisdom about each of the
main characters involved can be linked to the story!

Sandra adds two cents' worth:
I agree. At the moment it is all disjointed, nuggets turn up in all the
threads and are 'lost' on account of it. The threads themselves veer so far
from the original note that the subject line eventually has nothing
whatsoever to do with the original note. Remembering where something in
particular was referred to becomes a considerable feat. If there were to be
a website, with different pages/files for different
characters/places/events/dates, in alphabetical order, where all interesting
or useful information could be added by whoever submits it, just think how
good it would be. Just the info, with any possible source. For example, if
anything new turns up about John, 1st Earl of Lincoln and, say, a newly
discovered reference to his pathological hatred of green vegetables, it
could simply be added and we could all refer to it under the one heading of
his name. Maybe a lot of folk already do it as a matter of course, but I'm
too sloppy. Going through my records and files is like wading thigh-deep
through mud.

Got that...havent had time to read it yet...a quick dip make me thing I am going to like it though....Eileen

--- In , "tarqe4" <cscpennington@...> wrote:
>
> I think it's in 'Bosworth 1485 The Psychology of a Battle'. I thought it was really interesting.
>
> --- In , Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@> wrote:
> >
> > I may have missed something here, but does Jones publish his theory on Cicely Neville in a particular book?
> >
> > Jan.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On 28 Mar 2013, at 11:49, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@>
> > > To: "@@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> > >
> > > It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right. It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period. He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483. The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
> > >
> > > You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting. He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set. His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.
> > >
> > > Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing. The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles. The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@>
> > > To: "@@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: EileenB
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > > heroine..Eileen
> > > >
> > > > According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@>
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: EileenB
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > > >
> > > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > > heroine..Eileen
> > > >
> > > > Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> > > > to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> > > > may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> > > > her going....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Good post Mary....we have to keep asking questions and have no choice to speculate....Eileen

--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> It is very unlikely that we will ever know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. However, I don't think that we should stop speculating or running bits of information past one another. Michael Jones' book is worth reading even if you don't agree with every thing that he says. Every bit of evidence that we find will put another piece in the jigsaw and surely our speculation is as valid as anything the traditionalists come up with, as a lot of their information is based on merely on speculation with no evidence to back it up. Excellent analysis of the task ahead of us Jonathon.
>
> --- In , Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@>
> > To: "" <>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> > > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> >
> >
> > It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right.  It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period.  He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483.  The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
> >
> > You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting.  He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set.  His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.
> >
> > Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing.  The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles.  The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@>
> > To: "" <>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >  
> > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > heroine..Eileen
> > >
> > > According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> > > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > heroine..Eileen
> > >
> > > Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> > > to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> > > may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> > > her going....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Thomas Penn (see my posts to Eileen) is quite interesting on EOY. Says by the time she died she was quite a force to be reckoned with. There were times when she forbade Henry to do things and he had to write and apologise that he couldn't to foreign ambassadors. Seems to have been a chip off the old EW block. Now I do feel sorry for Henry, sandwiched between her and his mother.



________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 4:51
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Since Cicely and EW were not it good terms, I am not sure how attached she would be to her granddaughter. Who was illegitimate to boot and married to the usurper who not only killed her son but let his men degrade and humiliate his body.
Maybe I am thinking in 21st century way but I really really don't get it.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:11 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com> wrote:

> From: ricard1an
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:46 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit
> > over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was
> > almost alone in a very hostile world.
>
> She was in a convent, though, wasn't she, so although she'd lost most of her
> family she would have had the nuns around her and they possibly served as a
> surrogate family.
>
> But what on earth did she feel about Edward killing George? It's hard to
> believe she could have agreed with it, so she must on one level have lost
> Edward while he was still alive.
>
> If she gave any money to Henry willingly, perhaps it was so he could use it
> to pay her granddaughter's gambling debts.... I'm not joking, either - if
> he was mean and EoY was expensive, Cecily might have agreed to sub her by
> that route.
>
>

It's to do with the bastardy allegation Ishita - Jones found the 'evidence' in Rouen. He's good on her influence within the family though, which is so often overlooked. 



________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


 

Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <mailto:jmcevans98%40yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> From: EileenB
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> her going....
>
>
>
>

Really, yet another book to read. What is the name of it? And the author's name, when you can.
I am so untutored that I cannot hazard an opinion. Just, that knowing women who have lost son(s) and husband, it is a bitter and lasting blow, from which many never recover.

On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:45 PM, "Jonathan Evans" <jmcevans98@...<mailto:jmcevans98@...>> wrote:




From: EileenB
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> heroine..Eileen

According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...<mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com>>
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...



From: EileenB
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> heroine..Eileen

Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
her going....

REally! Karma come and bit him on the bottom...I definitely must buy that book...next one on my list...Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Thomas Penn (see my posts to Eileen) is quite interesting on EOY. Says by the time she died she was quite a force to be reckoned with. There were times when she forbade Henry to do things and he had to write and apologise that he couldn't to foreign ambassadors. Seems to have been a chip off the old EW block. Now I do feel sorry for Henry, sandwiched between her and his mother.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 4:51
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>  
>
> Since Cicely and EW were not it good terms, I am not sure how attached she would be to her granddaughter. Who was illegitimate to boot and married to the usurper who not only killed her son but let his men degrade and humiliate his body.
> Maybe I am thinking in 21st century way but I really really don't get it.
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:11 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com> wrote:
>
> > From: ricard1an
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > I have thought about how she must have felt after Bosworth, quite a bit
> > > over the last few days. Apart from losing her only surviving son she was
> > > almost alone in a very hostile world.
> >
> > She was in a convent, though, wasn't she, so although she'd lost most of her
> > family she would have had the nuns around her and they possibly served as a
> > surrogate family.
> >
> > But what on earth did she feel about Edward killing George? It's hard to
> > believe she could have agreed with it, so she must on one level have lost
> > Edward while he was still alive.
> >
> > If she gave any money to Henry willingly, perhaps it was so he could use it
> > to pay her granddaughter's gambling debts.... I'm not joking, either - if
> > he was mean and EoY was expensive, Cecily might have agreed to sub her by
> > that route.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Did Cicely maybe deal with her pain by blaming herself in some way...(see Jonathan's earlier message ) divine retribution for some actions in her earlier life? Just simply musing here at the moment and I could be totally wrong...Eileen

--- In , Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> Really, yet another book to read. What is the name of it? And the author's name, when you can.
> I am so untutored that I cannot hazard an opinion. Just, that knowing women who have lost son(s) and husband, it is a bitter and lasting blow, from which many never recover.
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:45 PM, "Jonathan Evans" <jmcevans98@...<mailto:jmcevans98@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...<mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com>>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> her going....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thank you, Hilary. It's in the queue for reading. I might let it jump the queue.

Jan.

Sent from my iPad

On 28 Mar 2013, at 12:30, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> Bosworth 1485 - the Psychology of a Battle.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...>
> To: ">
> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 12:24
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> I may have missed something here, but does Jones publish his theory on Cicely Neville in a particular book?
>
> Jan.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 28 Mar 2013, at 11:49, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> > To: ">
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> > > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> >
> > It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and Cecily's acute sense of lineal right. It looks at clues such as her (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period. He also places her and her residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483. The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
> >
> > You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but the details are very interesting. He admits he's building a psychological case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set. His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the former and see the latter as the defining factor.
> >
> > Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing. The paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of guttering candles. The important thing is to remain honest about that and accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
> > To: ">
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
> > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> >
> >
> >
> > Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > heroine..Eileen
> > >
> > > According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> > > Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
> > >
> > > > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > > > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > > > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > > > heroine..Eileen
> > >
> > > Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> > > to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> > > may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> > > her going....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

A J that is a terrific idea. We might use Mrs. Pogmore's book as a starting point. The players are listed alphabetically and with a small comment on Cecily, and I assume most. She says that Cecily lived to be 80, and "spent the last years of her life at Beckhampstead Castle, her home in Berkshire, where she lives in seclusion as a Benedictine nun".


On Mar 28, 2013, at 8:15 AM, "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...> wrote:

> We really do need a website, where the collective wisdom about each of the
> main characters involved can be linked to the story!
>
> A J
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 7:41 AM, ricard1an <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> It is very unlikely that we will ever know the truth, the whole truth and
>> nothing but the truth. However, I don't think that we should stop
>> speculating or running bits of information past one another. Michael Jones'
>> book is worth reading even if you don't agree with every thing that he
>> says. Every bit of evidence that we find will put another piece in the
>> jigsaw and surely our speculation is as valid as anything the
>> traditionalists come up with, as a lot of their information is based on
>> merely on speculation with no evidence to back it up. Excellent analysis of
>> the task ahead of us Jonathon.
>>
>>
>> --- In , Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
>>> To: "
>> >
>>> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
>>> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
>>>
>>>
>>> It's all based around Jones's theory of Edward IV's illegitimacy and
>> Cecily's acute sense of lineal right. It looks at clues such as her
>> (possibly) fractured relationship with Edward, her animosity towards the
>> Woodvilles, the iconography of York's reinterment, and the rumours of the
>> illegitimacy persisting into the Tudor period. He also places her and her
>> residence of Baynard's Castle at the very centre of events in April 1483.Â
>> The implication is that she is the instigator and driver of a chain of
>> events that consumes both George and Richard, both of whom, in different
>> ways, are fatally driven to reclaim family honour.
>>>
>>> You don't have to accept what Jones says in whole-cloth - I don't - but
>> the details are very interesting. He admits he's building a psychological
>> case based on possibilities rather than presenting "the truth", but what he
>> says is compelling and fits plausibly within a late medieval mind-set.Â
>> His emphasis is on Edward IV's illegitimacy and he sees the pre-contract as
>> a fig-leaf, but much of the interpretation - particularly with regard to
>> Richard's vision of his own kingship - still works if you dismiss the
>> former and see the latter as the defining factor.
>>>
>>> Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing. The
>> paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying
>> to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of
>> guttering candles. The important thing is to remain honest about that and
>> accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.
>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
>>> To: "
>> >
>>> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:20
>>> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>> Jonathan, why does he say that? In what way?
>>>
>>> Ishita Bandyo
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Mar 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: EileenB
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>>>>
>>>>> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did
>> she
>>>>> survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I
>> imagine
>>>>> her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
>>>>> heroine..Eileen
>>>>
>>>> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York.
>> And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
>>>> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: EileenB
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>>>>
>>>>> I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did
>> she
>>>>> survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I
>> imagine
>>>>> her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
>>>>> heroine..Eileen
>>>>
>>>> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her
>> husband had
>>>> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending),
>> so it
>>>> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to
>> keep
>>>> her going....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

From: Jonathan Evans
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> Yes, much of it is speculation, but that's what we're all doing. The
> paucity of sources means that this is inevitable - it's rather like trying
> to reconstruct a vast and intricate tapestry by the light of a couple of
> guttering candles. The important thing is to remain honest about that and
> accept that we're unlikely ever to get definitive answers.

Yes, exactly. All we can do is construct psychologically and physically
plausible (i.e. bearing in mind things like travel-times and feasible
workloads) scenarios and then test them against all the available evidence,
and any fresh evidence which may come up in the future. Nearly always there
will be several possible scenarios which fit, although new evidence may help
to whittle them down.

For example, Edward claimed that Henry VI died of "pure displeasure and
melancholy" but examination of his skull showed he'd had a blow to the back
of his head, low down.

What does "pure displeasure and melancholy" mean? That he starved himself
to death due to depression? That he had a heart attack or stroke brought on
by stress?

Edward could have been straight-out lying, and he had poor old Daft Harry
assassinated. This is probably the most likely scenario, because a death
from natural causes would have been suspiciously convenient. However, it is
also perfectly possible, say 35:65 or even 40:60, that the poor man slipped
on some stone stairs, fell back and cracked his skull against a step, or
e.g. caught his foot in a rug and fell back against a fireplace, and that
Edward lied about his cause of death because if he said "He fell and bashed
his head in" poeple would assume an assassination where none was.

But also, if Harry was just found dead at the foot of some stairs or beside
a stone mantelpiece, and there wasn't any blood visible on the back of his
head (as there might not have been, if he died instantly), Edward might
really have believed that he had just collapsed and died there. It might
even be true that self-starvation, a heart-attack or a stroke *caused* him
to fall back and crack his head on a step or piece of furniture. That might
sound fanciful but it's how the father of a friend of mine died - he was a
very tall man who suffered a sudden severe stroke whilst standing on stony
ground, fell his whole length and broke his neck in the fall.

From: SandraMachin
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...


> If there were to be
a website, with different pages/files for different
characters/places/events/dates, in alphabetical order, where all interesting
or useful information could be added by whoever submits it, just think how
good it would be.

That's a very good idea, and we could do it by setting up a private wiki or
an editable Google doc that we all had editing rights to. But we'd have to
decide in advance what headings to split it into: if we just had one heading
for "Richard", for example, there'd be so much information on one page it
would still be hard to find anything so there would have to be categories
like "religious beliefs", "Lordship of Glamorgan" and so on.

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...

> Thomas Penn (see my posts to Eileen) is quite interesting on EOY. Says by
> the time she died she was quite a force to be reckoned with. There were
> times when she forbade Henry to do things and he had to write and
> apologise that he couldn't to foreign ambassadors. Seems to have been a
> chip off the old EW block. Now I do feel sorry for Henry, sandwiched
> between her and his mother.

And Morton! That's why I think that on the whole Richard was luckier than
Henry - even though he didn't live long he had a good marriage, public love
and admiration and the exercise of skill and most of the really bad things
which happened to him, the exiles and bereavements, happened to Henry too -
apart from having one brother kill the other and then finding out that the
surviving brother was a bigamist, which was kind-of special.

And it sounds as though, if EoW *was* angling to marry her uncle, Richard
had a lucky escape. It also means that Henry VI was a lot nicer than his
son - but perhaps it was watching his father saying "Yes dear, no dear, of
course dear" which gave Henry VIII the idea of murdering his wives (not that
that's any excuse, buit it makes a kind of serial killer logic).

I wonder if she were more philosophical.  She had seen many of her relations come to grief during the Wars of the Roses, as well as her husband and son killed in battle.  Later she had to contend with Clarence and his actions, the disaffection of her nephew Warwick, the deposition of Edward IV, his return to the throne, the ascendancy of the Woodvilles etc.  It was a time of great upheaval amongst the nobility and perhaps all these deaths were in many respects an occupational hazard of gaining and losing power.

I wonder if we tend to view her losses and action though modern eyes and her actual reactions may have been completely different.
She may have had a greater belief in God's will than we do today.

________________________________
EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

 
Did Cicely maybe deal with her pain by blaming herself in some way...(see Jonathan's earlier message ) divine retribution for some actions in her earlier life? Just simply musing here at the moment and I could be totally wrong...Eileen

--- In , Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> Really, yet another book to read. What is the name of it? And the author's name, when you can.
> I am so untutored that I cannot hazard an opinion. Just, that knowing women who have lost son(s) and husband, it is a bitter and lasting blow, from which many never recover.
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:45 PM, "Jonathan Evans" <jmcevans98@...<mailto:jmcevans98@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...<mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com>>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
>
>
> From: EileenB
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband had
> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> her going....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Although I think that brings us back to what we (can) know about how these
women thought. I do think there's some danger in assuming that they would
have been affected the same way we are. Losing children happened a lot, so
there must have been ways that parents coped with such losses that we are
largely unfamiliar with in our times (religion? a la Rose Kennedy).

Also, how much contact did a high-ranking lady actually have with her
children after an early age. The comment posted earlier by Jonathan about
Cecily's believing in her lineal right made a lot of sense to me, & I can
see her sending out one son after another (& grandsons?) to achieve this
end.

The more I learn, the more it seems that the Wars of the Roses were driven
by women (Margaret of Anjou, Margaret Beaufort, Elizabeth Woodville, Cecily
Neville). In the end, the most "successful" mother was Margaret Beaufort.
The others all saw their sons (Edward IV excepted) disposed of before
their time.

Interesting too that 3 of these women were ancestresses of Elizabeth I.

A J

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 8:45 AM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Really, yet another book to read. What is the name of it? And the author's
> name, when you can.
> I am so untutored that I cannot hazard an opinion. Just, that knowing
> women who have lost son(s) and husband, it is a bitter and lasting blow,
> from which many never recover.
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 7:45 PM, "Jonathan Evans" <jmcevans98@...
> <mailto:jmcevans98@...>> wrote:
>
> From: EileenB
> To: <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> According to Jones, she's the person who destroyed the House of York. And
> this variance of opinion is what makes the whole thing so fascinating.
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...<mailto:
> whitehound%40madasafish.com>>
> To: <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 23:56
> Subject: Re: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> From: EileenB
> To: <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: MB and Coldharbour...
>
> > I would love to know more about Cicely....how she ticked....how did she
> > survive blow after blow after blow and stlll remain standing...I imagine
> > her faith helped her through...but even so....To me she is a
> > heroine..Eileen
>
> Well, we know she was what would now be called a shopaholic (her husband
> had
> to employ a special accountant just to keep an eye on her spending), so it
> may have been expensive gowns and green leather shoes which helped to keep
> her going....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>