Richard's Executions

We all know Richard ordered some men executed during his reign.

Did he ever order someone to be drawn and quartered?

~Weds

From: wednesday_mc
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:23 AM
Subject: Richard's Executions


> We all know Richard ordered some men executed during his reign.

> Did he ever order someone to be drawn and quartered?

Colyngbourne, the scurrilous rhymer, for being involved with the plans for
an invasion, and the reports say he remained conscious throughout. But it's
not clear whether Richard ordered it as such or whether it was just how the
legal process panned out: it happened while Anne was dying and he seems to
have hardly stirred from her side at that time, so it may well be something
he had left to his officers to sort out. Who was Richard's Constable? I
forget.

Also I think two of Buckingham's rebels but again Richard may not have been
directly involved in any way, as it happened a long way away from where he
was at the time.

I don't know if he had any involvement with this barbaric form of execution
when he was Constable.

Only the Colyngborne guy.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:23 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> We all know Richard ordered some men executed during his reign.
>
> Did he ever order someone to be drawn and quartered?
>
> ~Weds
>
>

I think John Howard officiated Colyngborne's trial. But I would imagine he had to have Richard's tacit agreement in the form of punishment.
I don't think Richard punished anyone in that manner when he was the Constable. Hung or beheaded people.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:36 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:

> From: wednesday_mc
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:23 AM
> Subject: Richard's Executions
>
> > We all know Richard ordered some men executed during his reign.
>
> > Did he ever order someone to be drawn and quartered?
>
> Colyngbourne, the scurrilous rhymer, for being involved with the plans for
> an invasion, and the reports say he remained conscious throughout. But it's
> not clear whether Richard ordered it as such or whether it was just how the
> legal process panned out: it happened while Anne was dying and he seems to
> have hardly stirred from her side at that time, so it may well be something
> he had left to his officers to sort out. Who was Richard's Constable? I
> forget.
>
> Also I think two of Buckingham's rebels but again Richard may not have been
> directly involved in any way, as it happened a long way away from where he
> was at the time.
>
> I don't know if he had any involvement with this barbaric form of execution
> when he was Constable.
>
>

From: Ishita Bandyo
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


> I think John Howard officiated Colyngborne's trial. But I would imagine he
> had to have Richard's tacit agreement in the form of punishment.

It may just have happened automatically. It was how traitors were executed
if they were commoners, and apart from the two I found a mention of during
the Buckingham rebellion - who afaik were about 100 miles frorm where
Richard was - Colyngbourne may have been the first non-noble traitor Richard
had to have executed. And he must have been very distracted by caring for
Anne - he may have forgotten that Colyngbourne wouldn't simply be hanged.

One wonders what Cecily thought about it - since Colyngbourne was her man.

Well he was "supposedly" her man but of course was a traitor and a spy so she may not have cared how he died. 
 
 

From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 3:49
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions

 
From: Ishita Bandyo
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions

> I think John Howard officiated Colyngborne's trial. But I would imagine he
> had to have Richard's tacit agreement in the form of punishment.

It may just have happened automatically. It was how traitors were executed
if they were commoners, and apart from the two I found a mention of during
the Buckingham rebellion - who afaik were about 100 miles frorm where
Richard was - Colyngbourne may have been the first non-noble traitor Richard
had to have executed. And he must have been very distracted by caring for
Anne - he may have forgotten that Colyngbourne wouldn't simply be hanged.

One wonders what Cecily thought about it - since Colyngbourne was her man.

From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


> Well he was "supposedly" her man but of course was a traitor and a spy so
> she may not have cared how he died.

Yes - but if so it doesn't cast her in a very sympathetic light.

Why not?  I doubt if she personally  urged them to use that specific punishment.
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 11:00
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions

 
From: liz williams
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions

> Well he was "supposedly" her man but of course was a traitor and a spy so
> she may not have cared how he died.

Yes - but if so it doesn't cast her in a very sympathetic light.


Why not? 

From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


> Why not? I doubt if she personally urged them to use that specific
> punishment.

To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a
humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic.
And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was
invading other people's countries just because you could.

Cicely's husband and son had died in an horrific manner fighting those very people Colyngbourne was spying for.  I doubt very much if she was too worried since it was kill or be killed and I don't think less of her.  Yes to us it's repugnant but we haven't grown up with any death penalty, much less one like that.  I'm not saying she'd have been pleased at it, just pragmatic.
 
Of course she may have been appalled at the manner of death but hey she could, if he'd lived, have persuaded Richard to change the law and get rid of that vile punishment

From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:42
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions

 
From: liz williams
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PMki
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions

> Why not? I doubt if she personally urged them to use that specific
> punishment.

To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a
humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic.
And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was
invading other people's countries just because you could.



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.

Liz...I could easily imagine that Cicely could well have shuddered at the thought of Colybourne's death...but also thought that he had received the due punishment, of which he would have been aware of before he went down the dodgy path of committing treason....as they say dont go into the kitchen if you dont want to get burnt....but I doubt very much she relished the idea of the method which presumably was meant to turn people off the idea...however it didnt work...
Eileen


--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Cicely's husband and son had died in an horrific manner fighting those very people Colyngbourne was spying for.  I doubt very much if she was too worried since it was kill or be killed and I don't think less of her.  Yes to us it's repugnant but we haven't grown up with any death penalty, much less one like that.  I'm not saying she'd have been pleased at it, just pragmatic.
>  
> Of course she may have been appalled at the manner of death but hey she could, if he'd lived, have persuaded Richard to change the law and get rid of that vile punishment
>
> From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:42
> Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
>
>  
> From: liz williams
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PMki
> Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
>
> > Why not? I doubt if she personally urged them to use that specific
> > punishment.
>
> To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a
> humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic.
> And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was
> invading other people's countries just because you could.
>
>
>
> Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
> Recent Activity: * New Members 9 * New Photos 5 * New Links 4
> Visit Your Group
>
> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback
> .
>
>
>

As a woman, albeit an influential one, I am not sure he would have much say on how people were executed. And we do not know how she felt. Morality was a different concept after all and as a noble woman who has seen the worst of people can do to each other I think she did not spare much thought n it. And she was living her life in her other castle( don't know how to spell it:/)

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 27, 2013, at 12:29 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> Liz...I could easily imagine that Cicely could well have shuddered at the thought of Colybourne's death...but also thought that he had received the due punishment, of which he would have been aware of before he went down the dodgy path of committing treason....as they say dont go into the kitchen if you dont want to get burnt....but I doubt very much she relished the idea of the method which presumably was meant to turn people off the idea...however it didnt work...
> Eileen
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> >
> > Cicely's husband and son had died in an horrific manner fighting those very people Colyngbourne was spying for. I doubt very much if she was too worried since it was kill or be killed and I don't think less of her. Yes to us it's repugnant but we haven't grown up with any death penalty, much less one like that. I'm not saying she'd have been pleased at it, just pragmatic.
> >
> > Of course she may have been appalled at the manner of death but hey she could, if he'd lived, have persuaded Richard to change the law and get rid of that vile punishment
> >
> > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:42
> > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> >
> >
> > From: liz williams
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PMki
> > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> >
> > > Why not? I doubt if she personally urged them to use that specific
> > > punishment.
> >
> > To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a
> > humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic.
> > And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was
> > invading other people's countries just because you could.
> >
> >
> >
> > Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
> > Recent Activity: * New Members 9 * New Photos 5 * New Links 4
> > Visit Your Group
> >
> > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest " Unsubscribe " Terms of Use " Send us Feedback
> > .
> >
> >
> >
>
>

From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


> Of course she may have been appalled at the manner of death but hey she
> could, if he'd lived, have persuaded Richard to change the law and get rid
> of that vile punishment

I think he might well have done, if he'd lived, because it was a punishment
which created a large and unfair difference between how the nobility and
commoners were treated, and we know he cared a lot about the common people.

What I find hard to believe how people could actually go to these executions and later on burnings and presumably enjoy them???? Eileen
--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> As a woman, albeit an influential one, I am not sure he would have much say on how people were executed. And we do not know how she felt. Morality was a different concept after all and as a noble woman who has seen the worst of people can do to each other I think she did not spare much thought n it. And she was living her life in her other castle( don't know how to spell it:/)
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 12:29 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> > Liz...I could easily imagine that Cicely could well have shuddered at the thought of Colybourne's death...but also thought that he had received the due punishment, of which he would have been aware of before he went down the dodgy path of committing treason....as they say dont go into the kitchen if you dont want to get burnt....but I doubt very much she relished the idea of the method which presumably was meant to turn people off the idea...however it didnt work...
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cicely's husband and son had died in an horrific manner fighting those very people Colyngbourne was spying for. I doubt very much if she was too worried since it was kill or be killed and I don't think less of her. Yes to us it's repugnant but we haven't grown up with any death penalty, much less one like that. I'm not saying she'd have been pleased at it, just pragmatic.
> > >
> > > Of course she may have been appalled at the manner of death but hey she could, if he'd lived, have persuaded Richard to change the law and get rid of that vile punishment
> > >
> > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:42
> > > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> > >
> > >
> > > From: liz williams
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PMki
> > > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> > >
> > > > Why not? I doubt if she personally urged them to use that specific
> > > > punishment.
> > >
> > > To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a
> > > humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic.
> > > And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was
> > > invading other people's countries just because you could.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
> > > Recent Activity: * New Members 9 * New Photos 5 * New Links 4
> > > Visit Your Group
> > >
> > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

 A bit like bear-baiting and cock-fighting. That's why it's so hard to apply our morality to theirs, just think of the horrors of battle. Perhaps we're back full-circle to Charlotte Corday! 



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 16:57
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


 

What I find hard to believe how people could actually go to these executions and later on burnings and presumably enjoy them???? Eileen
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> As a woman, albeit an influential one, I am not sure he would have much say on how people were executed. And we do not know how she felt. Morality was a different concept after all and as a noble woman who has seen the worst of people can do to each other I think she did not spare much thought n it. And she was living her life in her other castle( don't know how to spell it:/)
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 12:29 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> > Liz...I could easily imagine that Cicely could well have shuddered at the thought of Colybourne's death...but also thought that he had received the due punishment, of which he would have been aware of before he went down the dodgy path of committing treason....as they say dont go into the kitchen if you dont want to get burnt....but I doubt very much she relished the idea of the method which presumably was meant to turn people off the idea...however it didnt work...
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cicely's husband and son had died in an horrific manner fighting those very people Colyngbourne was spying for. I doubt very much if she was too worried since it was kill or be killed and I don't think less of her. Yes to us it's repugnant but we haven't grown up with any death penalty, much less one like that. I'm not saying she'd have been pleased at it, just pragmatic.
> > >
> > > Of course she may have been appalled at the manner of death but hey she could, if he'd lived, have persuaded Richard to change the law and get rid of that vile punishment
> > >
> > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:42
> > > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> > >
> > >
> > > From: liz williams
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PMki
> > > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> > >
> > > > Why not? I doubt if she personally urged them to use that specific
> > > > punishment.
> > >
> > > To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a
> > > humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic.
> > > And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was
> > > invading other people's countries just because you could.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
> > > Recent Activity: * New Members 9 * New Photos 5 * New Links 4
> > > Visit Your Group
> > >
> > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ⬢ Unsubscribe ⬢ Terms of Use ⬢ Send us Feedback
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

hideous cruelty....and still goes on today...off topic...but I cannot tell you how much this kind of thing saddens and distresses me....Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
>  A bit like bear-baiting and cock-fighting. That's why it's so hard to apply our morality to theirs, just think of the horrors of battle. Perhaps we're back full-circle to Charlotte Corday! 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 16:57
> Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
>
>
>  
>
> What I find hard to believe how people could actually go to these executions and later on burnings and presumably enjoy them???? Eileen
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > As a woman, albeit an influential one, I am not sure he would have much say on how people were executed. And we do not know how she felt. Morality was a different concept after all and as a noble woman who has seen the worst of people can do to each other I think she did not spare much thought n it. And she was living her life in her other castle( don't know how to spell it:/)
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 12:29 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > > Liz...I could easily imagine that Cicely could well have shuddered at the thought of Colybourne's death...but also thought that he had received the due punishment, of which he would have been aware of before he went down the dodgy path of committing treason....as they say dont go into the kitchen if you dont want to get burnt....but I doubt very much she relished the idea of the method which presumably was meant to turn people off the idea...however it didnt work...
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cicely's husband and son had died in an horrific manner fighting those very people Colyngbourne was spying for. I doubt very much if she was too worried since it was kill or be killed and I don't think less of her. Yes to us it's repugnant but we haven't grown up with any death penalty, much less one like that. I'm not saying she'd have been pleased at it, just pragmatic.
> > > >
> > > > Of course she may have been appalled at the manner of death but hey she could, if he'd lived, have persuaded Richard to change the law and get rid of that vile punishment
> > > >
> > > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:42
> > > > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: liz williams
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PMki
> > > > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> > > >
> > > > > Why not? I doubt if she personally urged them to use that specific
> > > > > punishment.
> > > >
> > > > To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a
> > > > humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic.
> > > > And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was
> > > > invading other people's countries just because you could.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
> > > > Recent Activity: * New Members 9 * New Photos 5 * New Links 4
> > > > Visit Your Group
> > > >
> > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes don't really change underneath do we?



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 17:17
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


 

hideous cruelty....and still goes on today...off topic...but I cannot tell you how much this kind of thing saddens and distresses me....Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
>  A bit like bear-baiting and cock-fighting. That's why it's so hard to apply our morality to theirs, just think of the horrors of battle. Perhaps we're back full-circle to Charlotte Corday! 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 16:57
> Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
>
>
>  
>
> What I find hard to believe how people could actually go to these executions and later on burnings and presumably enjoy them???? Eileen
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > As a woman, albeit an influential one, I am not sure he would have much say on how people were executed. And we do not know how she felt. Morality was a different concept after all and as a noble woman who has seen the worst of people can do to each other I think she did not spare much thought n it. And she was living her life in her other castle( don't know how to spell it:/)
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2013, at 12:29 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > > Liz...I could easily imagine that Cicely could well have shuddered at the thought of Colybourne's death...but also thought that he had received the due punishment, of which he would have been aware of before he went down the dodgy path of committing treason....as they say dont go into the kitchen if you dont want to get burnt....but I doubt very much she relished the idea of the method which presumably was meant to turn people off the idea...however it didnt work...
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cicely's husband and son had died in an horrific manner fighting those very people Colyngbourne was spying for. I doubt very much if she was too worried since it was kill or be killed and I don't think less of her. Yes to us it's repugnant but we haven't grown up with any death penalty, much less one like that. I'm not saying she'd have been pleased at it, just pragmatic.
> > > >
> > > > Of course she may have been appalled at the manner of death but hey she could, if he'd lived, have persuaded Richard to change the law and get rid of that vile punishment
> > > >
> > > > From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 13:42
> > > > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: liz williams
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PMki
> > > > Subject: Re: Richard's Executions
> > > >
> > > > > Why not? I doubt if she personally urged them to use that specific
> > > > > punishment.
> > > >
> > > > To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a
> > > > humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic.
> > > > And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was
> > > > invading other people's countries just because you could.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
> > > > Recent Activity: * New Members 9 * New Photos 5 * New Links 4
> > > > Visit Your Group
> > > >
> > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ââ¬Â¢ Unsubscribe ââ¬Â¢ Terms of Use ââ¬Â¢ Send us Feedback
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


> A bit like bear-baiting and cock-fighting.

And the Roman arena! There's an exhibition about Pompeii on at the moment
and I was reading an article about it which mentioned a billboard
advertising crucifixions as an entertaining spectacle, with tourists
standing under an awning to keep off the sun as they watched people die in
agony :( The last person to be hung drawn and quartered iirc was a
Jacobite called Archibald Cameron in the late 18th C.

He did accompany Edward at the Courtenay Hungerford trials where they suffered that fate.



________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 2:52
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


 

I think John Howard officiated Colyngborne's trial. But I would imagine he had to have Richard's tacit agreement in the form of punishment.
I don't think Richard punished anyone in that manner when he was the Constable. Hung or beheaded people.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:36 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <mailto:whitehound%40madasafish.com> wrote:

> From: wednesday_mc
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:23 AM
> Subject: Richard's Executions
>
> > We all know Richard ordered some men executed during his reign.
>
> > Did he ever order someone to be drawn and quartered?
>
> Colyngbourne, the scurrilous rhymer, for being involved with the plans for
> an invasion, and the reports say he remained conscious throughout. But it's
> not clear whether Richard ordered it as such or whether it was just how the
> legal process panned out: it happened while Anne was dying and he seems to
> have hardly stirred from her side at that time, so it may well be something
> he had left to his officers to sort out. Who was Richard's Constable? I
> forget.
>
> Also I think two of Buckingham's rebels but again Richard may not have been
> directly involved in any way, as it happened a long way away from where he
> was at the time.
>
> I don't know if he had any involvement with this barbaric form of execution
> when he was Constable.
>
>

"Claire M Jordan" wrote:

> To not care whether anybody, let alone somebody you know personally, dies a humane death or a horrifyingly cruel one isn't an amiable characteristic. And yes, we have to rememebr that it was the norm for the time - but so was invading other people's countries just because you could.
>
Carol responds:

It's hard to put ourselves into the mindset of late medieval and early Renaissance people, but I think we know enough about Cecily to be fairly certain that she did not consider Henry Tudor the rightful king of England (she herself was "queen by right" in her signatures) and would have had no sympathy for anyone who supported him--in particular one of her own men who ought to have supported the Yorkist cause. What she thought of the particular punishment reserved for commoners who committed treason, I don't know, but she would certainly not have mourned his death.

Richard at one point had some of his own men hanged as an example when they were caught robbing villagers. He was his mother's son, and I suspect that he learned from her not to show favor to his own men when they did not deserve it. I seriously doubt that Cecily had any qualms about Colyngbourne's death for plotting to aid a man who intended to usurp her son's throne.

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's Executions


> It's hard to put ourselves into the mindset of late medieval and early
> Renaissance people, but I think we know enough about Cecily to be fairly
> certain that she did not consider Henry Tudor the rightful king of England

Oh, certainly not - I doubt if even Henry considered himself to be the
rightful king in that sense, or he wouldn't have claimed to be king by
conquest! He really had no other claim.

> (she herself was "queen by right" in her signatures) and would have had no
> sympathy for anyone who supported him--

Now that could go either way. She might think "York is clearly right and
anybody who says otherwise is a villain" or she might remember that she
herself had been in rebellion agianst an anointed king.

> in particular one of her own men who ought to have supported the Yorkist
> cause. What she thought of the particular punishment reserved for
> commoners who committed treason, I don't know, but she would certainly not
> have mourned his death.

Yes, sure, it's the manner of the execution which concerns me, not the fact
of it. In a society which had the death penalty and few secure prisons,
executing your enemy's spies was really a necessity. And executing
commoners in cruel ways was the norm, but Richard had generally showed
himself to be better than the norm and also to disapprove of situations
where there was one law for the rich and another for the poor, so
Colyngbourne's barbaric death is an anomaly - one which may be explained by
Richard being too preoccupied with Anne's imminent death to think about
anything else.

> Richard at one point had some of his own men hanged as an example when
> they were caught robbing villagers.

Yes - he invented an idea of military discipline and not molesting civilians
which wasn't to be re-discovered until Fairfax.