Looking for source

In Reid's Council of the North she talks about an indenture made 28 Jul
1474 between the Earl of Northumberland & Richard, Duke of Gloucester. She
gives two sources, neither one of which I can find on-line despite the text
of *Annals of the House of Percy* by de Fonblanque being online.

Reference
Indenture between Gloucester and Northumberland in 1474, preserved in the
muniment room at Syon House (V. ii. 28), and printed by de Fonblanque, *Annals
of the House of Percy*, i. p. 549. [vol. 1 (1887)] The Annals of the House
of Percy available on line has volume 1 with 300-some pages ending in 1461,
& volume 2 with more than 549 pages beginning in 1528. (Oh & no "hits" on
Gloucester in either the pdf version at Google, or the read online version
at www.archive.org)

Can anyone help point me towards the text of the indenture?

A J

A J Hibbard wrote:
>
> In Reid's Council of the North she talks about an indenture made 28 Jul 1474 between the Earl of Northumberland & Richard, Duke of Gloucester. She gives two sources, neither one of which I can find on-line despite the text of *Annals of the House of Percy* by de Fonblanque being online.

[snip]
>
> Can anyone help point me towards the text of the indenture?

Carol responds:

It's in PW. Hammond and Ann E. Sutton, "The Road to Bosworth," p. 62. Fortunately, it's short enough for me to type manually since I can't copy and paste from a printed book. The modernized spelling of the fifteenth-century English must come from the source since Hammond and Sutton normally preserve the original spelling.

"[28 July 1474] An Indenture between Richard Duke of Gloucester and Henry Earl of Northumberland--The Earl promiseth and granteth to the Duke to be his faithful servant, the said Duke being his good and faithful lord. And the said Earl to do service to the Duke at all times lawful and convenient when he thereunto by the said Duke shall be lawfully required; the dutie of the allegiance of the said Earl to the King, the Queen, his service and promise to Prince Edward, the first-begotten son, and all the King's issue begotten first at all times reserved. The Duke promises to be the Earl's faithful Lord, and that he will not ask or claim any office or fee that the Earl hath of the King's grant or of any other person or persons at the making of these presents, or take any servant retained of the Earl of fee, clothing, or promise, according to the appointments taken between the Duke and Earl by the King and Lords of his Council at Nottingham the 12th of May in the 13th year [of Edward's reign], except John Wedrington."

The source cited is Historical Manuscripts Commission, Sixth Report, London 1827-0, pp. 223-4.

The authors provide no explanation for this document, not even an identification of John Wedrington or a reason why he is excluded from the indenture.

Hope this helps!

Carol

Carol earlier:
>
> It's in PW. Hammond and Ann E. Sutton, "The Road to Bosworth," p. 62.

Carol again:

Sorry. Small corrections here. Make that P. W. Hammond and Anne E. Sutton, "Richard III: The Road to Bosworth Field," p. 62.

I was a little too hasty in citing the source.

Carol

Thanks much. I'll have a look in the index to the Council of the North to
see if Reid has anything to say about Wedrington.

A J


On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 4:35 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> A J Hibbard wrote:
> >
> > In Reid's Council of the North she talks about an indenture made 28 Jul
> 1474 between the Earl of Northumberland & Richard, Duke of Gloucester. She
> gives two sources, neither one of which I can find on-line despite the text
> of *Annals of the House of Percy* by de Fonblanque being online.
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > Can anyone help point me towards the text of the indenture?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> It's in PW. Hammond and Ann E. Sutton, "The Road to Bosworth," p. 62.
> Fortunately, it's short enough for me to type manually since I can't copy
> and paste from a printed book. The modernized spelling of the
> fifteenth-century English must come from the source since Hammond and
> Sutton normally preserve the original spelling.
>
> "[28 July 1474] An Indenture between Richard Duke of Gloucester and Henry
> Earl of Northumberland--The Earl promiseth and granteth to the Duke to be
> his faithful servant, the said Duke being his good and faithful lord. And
> the said Earl to do service to the Duke at all times lawful and convenient
> when he thereunto by the said Duke shall be lawfully required; the dutie of
> the allegiance of the said Earl to the King, the Queen, his service and
> promise to Prince Edward, the first-begotten son, and all the King's issue
> begotten first at all times reserved. The Duke promises to be the Earl's
> faithful Lord, and that he will not ask or claim any office or fee that the
> Earl hath of the King's grant or of any other person or persons at the
> making of these presents, or take any servant retained of the Earl of fee,
> clothing, or promise, according to the appointments taken between the Duke
> and Earl by the King and Lords of his Council at Nottingham the 12th of May
> in the 13th year [of Edward's reign], except John Wedrington."
>
> The source cited is Historical Manuscripts Commission, Sixth Report,
> London 1827-0, pp. 223-4.
>
> The authors provide no explanation for this document, not even an
> identification of John Wedrington or a reason why he is excluded from the
> indenture.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Carol
>
>
>

Here's a bit of what Reid said about the context for the indenture --

[p 42

For a moment it seemed that Edward would reward [the Duke of]
Northumberland by concentrating the government of the North in his hands as
his Lieutenant; for he made him Warden of the East and Middle Marches,
Governor of Berwick and Bamburgh, Constable, Steward and Master Forester of
the castle, lordship and forest of Knaresborough, and Justice of the
Forests beyond Trent, [4] and sent him ýinto the North there to reside for
the more peacable government of those partsý. [5] But he had no mind to
allow the Percies to take the position from which he had just ousted the
Nevilles; so his brother, Richard of Gloucester, was sent to join
Northumberland in governing the North. To this end, lands and offices were
heaped upon him. Already Warden of the West March (1470), [6] he soon
replaced Northumberland as Warden and Chief Justice of the Forests beyond
Trent (May, 1472), and was made Steward of Ripon, Sheriff of Cumberland for
life, and High Stewad of the Duchy of Lancaster north of the Trent, as well
as Justice of the Peace in Yorkshire, Cumberland and Westmorland . [7] He
was already lord of Middleham and Sheriffhutton when he married Anne
Neville and through Edwardýs favour obtained the full half of Warwickýs
lands as her dowry. [8]

_____

[6] *Rot. Scot*. ii. p. 423.

[7] Doyle. [*Plumpton Corres*. p lxxv-lxxvi]?

[8] Dugdale, op. cit. ii. p. 163 [=Dugdale, *Bar. Angl*. I.]



[p 43

To these were added Scarborough Castle, Skipton-in-Craven and Richmond in
1475, and by exchange with Sir Thomas Roos, Helmsley or Hamelak in 1478. [9]
Lord also of Lonsdale, Kendal, Cockermouth and Penrith, which with the West
March, -- of which he was now herditary [sic] Warden ý were formed into a
County Palatine for him in 1483, [10] Gloucester was soon the greatest
landowner as wall as the most important official north of the Trent.

Nevertheless, ten years more were to elapse before even the first step
could be taken towards replacing the two Justices of the Peace by a single
Kingýs Lieutenant in the North. The relation between Gloucester and
Northumberland was in fact clearly determined by an agreement entered into
by them before the King and his Council at Nottingham on 12 May 1478, that
the Duke would neither accept nor retain into his service any servant or
servants that had at any time been in the service of the Earl. [11] Next
year, it is true, the Earl indentured (28 July 1474) to be the Dukeýs servant
to do him all lawful service, saving only his duty to the King, the Queen
and the Prince of Wales, the Duke undertaking to be the Earlýs good and
faithful lord at all times and to sustain his right against all persons;
but even then the Duke had to renew the earlier agreement and also to
undertake that he would not ask or claim any office of fee that the Earl
had of the King or anyone else, nor interrupt him or his servants in the
exercise of any such office. [12]

The agreement thus made was faithfully observed throughout Edward IVýs
reign; and down to 1482 all commissions, even of the peace, shew clearly
that Gloucesterýs authority was limited to Yorkshire, Cumberland and
Westmorland,

_____

[9] *Rot. Parl*. vi. pp. 124-5, *Cal.** of Pat. Rolls*, 1476-1485, p. 90;
Davies, *York** Records*, p. 47.

[10] *Rot. Parl*. vi. p. 204

[11] Indenture between Gloucester and Northumberland in 1474, preserved in
the muniment room at Syon House (V. ii. 28), and printed by de
Fonblanque, *Annals
of the House of Percy*, i. p. 549.

[12] Ib.



[p 44

Northumberlandýs to Northumberland and Yorkshire; moreover, in Yorkshire,
in commissions other than those for the peace, only Gloucesterýs name
appears in commissions for the West Riding and only Northumberlandýs in
those for the East Riding. [13] Only in 1482, when war with Scotland broke
out was Gloucester made sole Kingýs Lieutenant in the North and so given
precedence of Northumberland everywhere beyond the Trent. [14]


A J


On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 4:35 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> A J Hibbard wrote:
> >
> > In Reid's Council of the North she talks about an indenture made 28 Jul
> 1474 between the Earl of Northumberland & Richard, Duke of Gloucester. She
> gives two sources, neither one of which I can find on-line despite the text
> of *Annals of the House of Percy* by de Fonblanque being online.
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > Can anyone help point me towards the text of the indenture?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> It's in PW. Hammond and Ann E. Sutton, "The Road to Bosworth," p. 62.
> Fortunately, it's short enough for me to type manually since I can't copy
> and paste from a printed book. The modernized spelling of the
> fifteenth-century English must come from the source since Hammond and
> Sutton normally preserve the original spelling.
>
> "[28 July 1474] An Indenture between Richard Duke of Gloucester and Henry
> Earl of Northumberland--The Earl promiseth and granteth to the Duke to be
> his faithful servant, the said Duke being his good and faithful lord. And
> the said Earl to do service to the Duke at all times lawful and convenient
> when he thereunto by the said Duke shall be lawfully required; the dutie of
> the allegiance of the said Earl to the King, the Queen, his service and
> promise to Prince Edward, the first-begotten son, and all the King's issue
> begotten first at all times reserved. The Duke promises to be the Earl's
> faithful Lord, and that he will not ask or claim any office or fee that the
> Earl hath of the King's grant or of any other person or persons at the
> making of these presents, or take any servant retained of the Earl of fee,
> clothing, or promise, according to the appointments taken between the Duke
> and Earl by the King and Lords of his Council at Nottingham the 12th of May
> in the 13th year [of Edward's reign], except John Wedrington."
>
> The source cited is Historical Manuscripts Commission, Sixth Report,
> London 1827-0, pp. 223-4.
>
> The authors provide no explanation for this document, not even an
> identification of John Wedrington or a reason why he is excluded from the
> indenture.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Carol
>
>
>

A J Hibbard wrote:
>
> Here's a bit of what Reid said about the context for the indenture
> For a moment it seemed that Edward would reward [the Duke of]
Northumberland by concentrating the government of the North in his hands as his Lieutenant; [snip]

Carol responds: Thanks for that long quotation. You mean *Earl* of Northumberland, right?

What is Reid's first name? I'm not familiar with the book. Is she hostile, neutral, or favorable toward Richard?

Carol

Yes, Earl is correct.

Haven't read far enough to know her attitude about Richard, so far her
writing is fairly neutral, although scanning through there may be some less
objective stuff in the offing.

I think her full name is Rachel Robertson Reid. Book was published in
1921, but is available on-line.

A J


On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 5:55 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> A J Hibbard wrote:
> >
> > Here's a bit of what Reid said about the context for the indenture
> > For a moment it seemed that Edward would reward [the Duke of]
> Northumberland by concentrating the government of the North in his hands
> as his Lieutenant; [snip]
>
> Carol responds: Thanks for that long quotation. You mean *Earl* of
> Northumberland, right?
>
> What is Reid's first name? I'm not familiar with the book. Is she hostile,
> neutral, or favorable toward Richard?
>
> Carol
>
>
>