Stillington Genealogy
Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-05 11:47:29
Hi Stephen started a new thread. Don't know where I'm going yet but I'm getting somewhere - the treacle thickens.
John Stillington of Acaster seems to have had three sons, our Robert, Sir Thomas, and John. It is the latter John Stillington who seems to have been married to Jennet Percival since they had a son who died in 1533, but at the moment she remains elusive and it could indeed by that John Sen married twice.
John senior, by common consent, seems to have been married to Katherine Holthorpe. He also had a daughter Johanna, but she's proving elusiveas well.
It's Sir Thomas's descendents who are interesting as you probably know (he by the way was married to Agnes, the daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod who died at Towton). Through them we get a double link to the Staffords (Constable) and, as you probably have sussed, the Darcys, who link us back to the Wentworths, the Tyrells of Gipping and certainly the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
John Stillington of Acaster seems to have had three sons, our Robert, Sir Thomas, and John. It is the latter John Stillington who seems to have been married to Jennet Percival since they had a son who died in 1533, but at the moment she remains elusive and it could indeed by that John Sen married twice.
John senior, by common consent, seems to have been married to Katherine Holthorpe. He also had a daughter Johanna, but she's proving elusiveas well.
It's Sir Thomas's descendents who are interesting as you probably know (he by the way was married to Agnes, the daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod who died at Towton). Through them we get a double link to the Staffords (Constable) and, as you probably have sussed, the Darcys, who link us back to the Wentworths, the Tyrells of Gipping and certainly the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-05 12:57:32
Have now found Johanna - she was mother of Richard Nykke, Bishop of Norwich, as you probably know, well known as a staunch supporter of catholicsm. Lines up well with the Catesbys and Throckmortons who were to take a Catholic hard line.
Seem to have one site saying that Jennet was married to Thomas, an older brother of Robert and the Thomas (1428)who married Agnes was his child. Dates don't necessarily line up but it doesn't make that much difference to the whole picture. Could be either. H
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen started a new thread. Don't know where I'm going yet but I'm getting somewhere - the treacle thickens.
> John Stillington of Acaster seems to have had three sons, our Robert, Sir Thomas, and John. It is the latter John Stillington who seems to have been married to Jennet Percival since they had a son who died in 1533, but at the moment she remains elusive and it could indeed by that John Sen married twice.
>
> John senior, by common consent, seems to have been married to Katherine Holthorpe. He also had a daughter Johanna, but she's proving elusiveas well.
>
> It's Sir Thomas's descendents who are interesting as you probably know (he by the way was married to Agnes, the daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod who died at Towton). Through them we get a double link to the Staffords (Constable) and, as you probably have sussed, the Darcys, who link us back to the Wentworths, the Tyrells of Gipping and certainly the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
>
> Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
>
Seem to have one site saying that Jennet was married to Thomas, an older brother of Robert and the Thomas (1428)who married Agnes was his child. Dates don't necessarily line up but it doesn't make that much difference to the whole picture. Could be either. H
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen started a new thread. Don't know where I'm going yet but I'm getting somewhere - the treacle thickens.
> John Stillington of Acaster seems to have had three sons, our Robert, Sir Thomas, and John. It is the latter John Stillington who seems to have been married to Jennet Percival since they had a son who died in 1533, but at the moment she remains elusive and it could indeed by that John Sen married twice.
>
> John senior, by common consent, seems to have been married to Katherine Holthorpe. He also had a daughter Johanna, but she's proving elusiveas well.
>
> It's Sir Thomas's descendents who are interesting as you probably know (he by the way was married to Agnes, the daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod who died at Towton). Through them we get a double link to the Staffords (Constable) and, as you probably have sussed, the Darcys, who link us back to the Wentworths, the Tyrells of Gipping and certainly the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
>
> Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-05 14:56:29
Thankyou - I think the Talbot-Chedder-Percival-Stillington link I mentioned looks shorter and I am only two links short.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Have now found Johanna - she was mother of Richard Nykke, Bishop of Norwich, as you probably know, well known as a staunch supporter of catholicsm. Lines up well with the Catesbys and Throckmortons who were to take a Catholic hard line.
Seem to have one site saying that Jennet was married to Thomas, an older brother of Robert and the Thomas (1428)who married Agnes was his child. Dates don't necessarily line up but it doesn't make that much difference to the whole picture. Could be either. H
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen started a new thread. Don't know where I'm going yet but I'm getting somewhere - the treacle thickens.
> John Stillington of Acaster seems to have had three sons, our Robert, Sir Thomas, and John. It is the latter John Stillington who seems to have been married to Jennet Percival since they had a son who died in 1533, but at the moment she remains elusive and it could indeed by that John Sen married twice.
>
> John senior, by common consent, seems to have been married to Katherine Holthorpe. He also had a daughter Johanna, but she's proving elusiveas well.
>
> It's Sir Thomas's descendents who are interesting as you probably know (he by the way was married to Agnes, the daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod who died at Towton). Through them we get a double link to the Staffords (Constable) and, as you probably have sussed, the Darcys, who link us back to the Wentworths, the Tyrells of Gipping and certainly the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
>
> Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
>
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Have now found Johanna - she was mother of Richard Nykke, Bishop of Norwich, as you probably know, well known as a staunch supporter of catholicsm. Lines up well with the Catesbys and Throckmortons who were to take a Catholic hard line.
Seem to have one site saying that Jennet was married to Thomas, an older brother of Robert and the Thomas (1428)who married Agnes was his child. Dates don't necessarily line up but it doesn't make that much difference to the whole picture. Could be either. H
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen started a new thread. Don't know where I'm going yet but I'm getting somewhere - the treacle thickens.
> John Stillington of Acaster seems to have had three sons, our Robert, Sir Thomas, and John. It is the latter John Stillington who seems to have been married to Jennet Percival since they had a son who died in 1533, but at the moment she remains elusive and it could indeed by that John Sen married twice.
>
> John senior, by common consent, seems to have been married to Katherine Holthorpe. He also had a daughter Johanna, but she's proving elusiveas well.
>
> It's Sir Thomas's descendents who are interesting as you probably know (he by the way was married to Agnes, the daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod who died at Towton). Through them we get a double link to the Staffords (Constable) and, as you probably have sussed, the Darcys, who link us back to the Wentworths, the Tyrells of Gipping and certainly the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
>
> Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-05 17:31:28
I'm so very nearly there. I agree about the Lisle/Cheddar link but I can't find a Richard Cheddar, only Thomas, brother of Joan. Sir John Percival who wasn't born until the mid 1440s is said in one genealogy to be married either to Thomas's daughter Joan (and I can only find an Isabel so far) or to the daughter of John Newton, whom that Isabel married. Did you know that Stillington reputedly had an illegitimate daughter Juliana who married into the same Newton family and I'm trying to tie down the link there. Jennet herself is elusive unless she was Ralph Percival's sister.
Lot of verification to be done of course if I do get there. Need to clear head now and start again. H
lists names as Sir John de Percival (1448-1498) and wife Joan Cheddar. States that Sir John was Lord of Eastbury and Weston-in-Gordano.
Sir John Perceval, Lord of Eastbury, Weston-in-Gordano, & c. (seventh of that name), their uncle (born in 1447), viz/ second son of Ralf the Second, succeeded to them, and did his homage for the estate upon the 6th of May, 1496. Which John having married Joan, the daughter and coheir of Thomas Chedder, Esq., or according to other authorities, the daughter of Sir John Newton, and widow of Richard Kyng, of Kingston-Seymour, in the county of Somerset, Esq. by that Lady left a son, James, and a daughter, who became wife of Gilbert Cogan, of Huntspill, Esq. a great family in those parts. And dying on September 25th, 1498 (about the fiftieth year of his age), was succeeded by the said Sir James Perceval... [1, 2]
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 5 April 2013, 14:56
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Thankyou - I think the Talbot-Chedder-Percival-Stillington link I mentioned looks shorter and I am only two links short.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Have now found Johanna - she was mother of Richard Nykke, Bishop of Norwich, as you probably know, well known as a staunch supporter of catholicsm. Lines up well with the Catesbys and Throckmortons who were to take a Catholic hard line.
Seem to have one site saying that Jennet was married to Thomas, an older brother of Robert and the Thomas (1428)who married Agnes was his child. Dates don't necessarily line up but it doesn't make that much difference to the whole picture. Could be either. H
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen started a new thread. Don't know where I'm going yet but I'm getting somewhere - the treacle thickens.
> John Stillington of Acaster seems to have had three sons, our Robert, Sir Thomas, and John. It is the latter John Stillington who seems to have been married to Jennet Percival since they had a son who died in 1533, but at the moment she remains elusive and it could indeed by that John Sen married twice.
>
> John senior, by common consent, seems to have been married to Katherine Holthorpe. He also had a daughter Johanna, but she's proving elusiveas well.
>
> It's Sir Thomas's descendents who are interesting as you probably know (he by the way was married to Agnes, the daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod who died at Towton). Through them we get a double link to the Staffords (Constable) and, as you probably have sussed, the Darcys, who link us back to the Wentworths, the Tyrells of Gipping and certainly the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
>
> Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
>
Lot of verification to be done of course if I do get there. Need to clear head now and start again. H
lists names as Sir John de Percival (1448-1498) and wife Joan Cheddar. States that Sir John was Lord of Eastbury and Weston-in-Gordano.
Sir John Perceval, Lord of Eastbury, Weston-in-Gordano, & c. (seventh of that name), their uncle (born in 1447), viz/ second son of Ralf the Second, succeeded to them, and did his homage for the estate upon the 6th of May, 1496. Which John having married Joan, the daughter and coheir of Thomas Chedder, Esq., or according to other authorities, the daughter of Sir John Newton, and widow of Richard Kyng, of Kingston-Seymour, in the county of Somerset, Esq. by that Lady left a son, James, and a daughter, who became wife of Gilbert Cogan, of Huntspill, Esq. a great family in those parts. And dying on September 25th, 1498 (about the fiftieth year of his age), was succeeded by the said Sir James Perceval... [1, 2]
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 5 April 2013, 14:56
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Thankyou - I think the Talbot-Chedder-Percival-Stillington link I mentioned looks shorter and I am only two links short.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Have now found Johanna - she was mother of Richard Nykke, Bishop of Norwich, as you probably know, well known as a staunch supporter of catholicsm. Lines up well with the Catesbys and Throckmortons who were to take a Catholic hard line.
Seem to have one site saying that Jennet was married to Thomas, an older brother of Robert and the Thomas (1428)who married Agnes was his child. Dates don't necessarily line up but it doesn't make that much difference to the whole picture. Could be either. H
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen started a new thread. Don't know where I'm going yet but I'm getting somewhere - the treacle thickens.
> John Stillington of Acaster seems to have had three sons, our Robert, Sir Thomas, and John. It is the latter John Stillington who seems to have been married to Jennet Percival since they had a son who died in 1533, but at the moment she remains elusive and it could indeed by that John Sen married twice.
>
> John senior, by common consent, seems to have been married to Katherine Holthorpe. He also had a daughter Johanna, but she's proving elusiveas well.
>
> It's Sir Thomas's descendents who are interesting as you probably know (he by the way was married to Agnes, the daughter of Sir Ralph Bigod who died at Towton). Through them we get a double link to the Staffords (Constable) and, as you probably have sussed, the Darcys, who link us back to the Wentworths, the Tyrells of Gipping and certainly the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
>
> Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-05 20:53:43
Hilary wrote:
> [snip] Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
Carol responds:
Speaking of Staffords, does anyone know anything about the Humphrey Stafford who fought for Richard at Bosworth and was later executed for rebelling against Henry VII? He and his brother Thomas seem to have supported Richard against one of their Stafford relatives, the Duke of Buckingham in November 1483. Unfortunately, when I Google "Humphrey Stafford," all I get is information on Henry Stafford's (Buckingham's) father and grandfather.
Carol
> [snip] Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
Carol responds:
Speaking of Staffords, does anyone know anything about the Humphrey Stafford who fought for Richard at Bosworth and was later executed for rebelling against Henry VII? He and his brother Thomas seem to have supported Richard against one of their Stafford relatives, the Duke of Buckingham in November 1483. Unfortunately, when I Google "Humphrey Stafford," all I get is information on Henry Stafford's (Buckingham's) father and grandfather.
Carol
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-05 21:40:40
Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Hilary wrote:
> [snip] Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
Carol responds:
Speaking of Staffords, does anyone know anything about the Humphrey Stafford who fought for Richard at Bosworth and was later executed for rebelling against Henry VII? He and his brother Thomas seem to have supported Richard against one of their Stafford relatives, the Duke of Buckingham in November 1483. Unfortunately, when I Google "Humphrey Stafford," all I get is information on Henry Stafford's (Buckingham's) father and grandfather.
Carol
One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Hilary wrote:
> [snip] Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
Carol responds:
Speaking of Staffords, does anyone know anything about the Humphrey Stafford who fought for Richard at Bosworth and was later executed for rebelling against Henry VII? He and his brother Thomas seem to have supported Richard against one of their Stafford relatives, the Duke of Buckingham in November 1483. Unfortunately, when I Google "Humphrey Stafford," all I get is information on Henry Stafford's (Buckingham's) father and grandfather.
Carol
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-05 21:47:26
Haven't got that far but the Staffords crop up in this more than once. Will come back to you. Still deep in Cheddars, Percivals and Newtons.
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hilary wrote:
>
> > [snip] Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Speaking of Staffords, does anyone know anything about the Humphrey Stafford who fought for Richard at Bosworth and was later executed for rebelling against Henry VII? He and his brother Thomas seem to have supported Richard against one of their Stafford relatives, the Duke of Buckingham in November 1483. Unfortunately, when I Google "Humphrey Stafford," all I get is information on Henry Stafford's (Buckingham's) father and grandfather.
>
> Carol
>
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hilary wrote:
>
> > [snip] Is that where you're going? I've still got a lot of work to do though and I'm not quite sure how the Staffords fit into this. H
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Speaking of Staffords, does anyone know anything about the Humphrey Stafford who fought for Richard at Bosworth and was later executed for rebelling against Henry VII? He and his brother Thomas seem to have supported Richard against one of their Stafford relatives, the Duke of Buckingham in November 1483. Unfortunately, when I Google "Humphrey Stafford," all I get is information on Henry Stafford's (Buckingham's) father and grandfather.
>
> Carol
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-05 23:44:13
"Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
>
Carol responds:
Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
Carol
>
> Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
>
Carol responds:
Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
Carol
Humphrey Stafford (Was: Stillington Genealogy)
2013-04-06 00:41:41
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Haven't got that far but the Staffords crop up in this more than once. Will come back to you. Still deep in Cheddars, Percivals and Newtons.
Carol responds:
I found some useful information on Humphrey Stafford here:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/2008-09/msg00350.html
Our Humphrey is item 12. The author is Douglas Richardson, who who wrote Plantagenet Ancestry, so it's very well researched. I'm surprised to find that that Humphrey was born about 1421, which would make him about sixty-three at Bosworth--still fighting for Richard three years after he could have been excused on grounds of age.
Oh, and good old Henry VII pulled him out of sanctuary, was reprimanded by the Pope, and protested, with the result that a Papal Bull was published allowing traitors to be pulled from sanctuary! Yet Edward IV (and, by association, Richard) is blamed for pulling the Duke of Somerset and others out of sanctuary after Tewkesbury. How can it be okay for Henry but not for Edward?
http://www.executedtoday.com/2012/07/08/1486-humphrey-stafford-of-grafton-no-sanctuary/
Carol
>
> Haven't got that far but the Staffords crop up in this more than once. Will come back to you. Still deep in Cheddars, Percivals and Newtons.
Carol responds:
I found some useful information on Humphrey Stafford here:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/2008-09/msg00350.html
Our Humphrey is item 12. The author is Douglas Richardson, who who wrote Plantagenet Ancestry, so it's very well researched. I'm surprised to find that that Humphrey was born about 1421, which would make him about sixty-three at Bosworth--still fighting for Richard three years after he could have been excused on grounds of age.
Oh, and good old Henry VII pulled him out of sanctuary, was reprimanded by the Pope, and protested, with the result that a Papal Bull was published allowing traitors to be pulled from sanctuary! Yet Edward IV (and, by association, Richard) is blamed for pulling the Duke of Somerset and others out of sanctuary after Tewkesbury. How can it be okay for Henry but not for Edward?
http://www.executedtoday.com/2012/07/08/1486-humphrey-stafford-of-grafton-no-sanctuary/
Carol
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-06 10:08:16
"The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
"Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
>
Carol responds:
Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
Carol
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
"Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
>
Carol responds:
Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
Carol
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-06 10:20:19
The task for the day is to link Sir John Percival with Janet Percival, then we have perhaps the most crucial link. I've gone back with the Percivals but they seem to be linked to Eastby not Ripon. However folks travelled around .... I've also found another source which says she was married to Thomas, not John. He would have had to have been a lot older than Robert (1420) though to have fathered the Thomas (1429) who married Agnes Bigod. What do you know about Robert's illegitimate children?
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 10:07
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
"The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
"Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
>
Carol responds:
Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
Carol
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 10:07
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
"The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
"Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
>
Carol responds:
Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
Carol
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-06 16:03:10
Stephen et al Update:
I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
I shall continue the search tomorrow.
In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
Cheers H
(Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
I shall continue the search tomorrow.
In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
Cheers H
(Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-06 17:10:49
It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen et al Update:
I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
I shall continue the search tomorrow.
In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
Cheers H
(Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen et al Update:
I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
I shall continue the search tomorrow.
In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
Cheers H
(Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-06 17:17:14
It could indeed - and Thomas Wyke does sound a bit like Thomas Nyke, who RS's sister married but Thomas Wyke does exist in documents in Somerset, I have yet to find Thomas Nyke - but onwards tomorrow.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 17:10
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen et al Update:
I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
I shall continue the search tomorrow.
In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
Cheers H
(Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 17:10
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen et al Update:
I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
I shall continue the search tomorrow.
In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
Cheers H
(Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 09:34:21
We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
Back to the Percivals H
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Stephen et al Update:
>
> I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
>
> I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
>
> The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
>
> I shall continue the search tomorrow.
>
> In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
>
> Cheers H
> (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: justcarol67
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
Back to the Percivals H
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Stephen et al Update:
>
> I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
>
> I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
>
> The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
>
> I shall continue the search tomorrow.
>
> In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
>
> Cheers H
> (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: justcarol67
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 10:47:30
I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
Back to the Percivals H
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Stephen et al Update:
>
> I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
>
> I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
>
> The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
>
> I shall continue the search tomorrow.
>
> In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
>
> Cheers H
> (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: justcarol67
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
Back to the Percivals H
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Stephen et al Update:
>
> I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
>
> I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
>
> The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
>
> I shall continue the search tomorrow.
>
> In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
>
> Cheers H
> (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: justcarol67
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 11:27:17
Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
I shall continue the search. H
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
>
> I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
>
> In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
>
> You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
>
> Back to the Percivals H
>
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Stephen et al Update:
> >
> > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> >
> > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> >
> > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> >
> > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> >
> > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> >
> > Cheers H
> > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: justcarol67
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
I shall continue the search. H
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
>
> I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
>
> In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
>
> You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
>
> Back to the Percivals H
>
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Stephen et al Update:
> >
> > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> >
> > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> >
> > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> >
> > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> >
> > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> >
> > Cheers H
> > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: justcarol67
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 12:47:59
You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
I shall continue the search. H
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
>
> I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
>
> In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
>
> You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
>
> Back to the Percivals H
>
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Stephen et al Update:
> >
> > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> >
> > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> >
> > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> >
> > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> >
> > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> >
> > Cheers H
> > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: justcarol67
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
I shall continue the search. H
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
>
> I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
>
> In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
>
> You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
>
> Back to the Percivals H
>
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Stephen et al Update:
> >
> > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> >
> > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> >
> > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> >
> > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> >
> > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> >
> > Cheers H
> > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: justcarol67
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 13:52:27
Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
See Hampton 1976 p. 15
But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
More digging methinks.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
>
> There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
>
> So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
>
> I shall continue the search. H
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> >
> > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> >
> > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> >
> > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> >
> > Back to the Percivals H
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Stephen et al Update:
> > >
> > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > >
> > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > >
> > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > >
> > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > >
> > > Cheers H
> > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
See Hampton 1976 p. 15
But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
More digging methinks.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
>
> There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
>
> So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
>
> I shall continue the search. H
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> >
> > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> >
> > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> >
> > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> >
> > Back to the Percivals H
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Stephen et al Update:
> > >
> > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > >
> > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > >
> > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > >
> > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > >
> > > Cheers H
> > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 14:00:32
Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
>
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
>
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
>
> More digging methinks.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> >
> > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> >
> > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> >
> > I shall continue the search. H
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > >
> > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > >
> > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > >
> > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > >
> > > Back to the Percivals H
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > >
> > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > >
> > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > >
> > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers H
> > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
>
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
>
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
>
> More digging methinks.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> >
> > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> >
> > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> >
> > I shall continue the search. H
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > >
> > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > >
> > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > >
> > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > >
> > > Back to the Percivals H
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > >
> > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > >
> > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > >
> > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers H
> > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 14:43:27
Are we looking at the right Talbot and Lisles? The earlier de Lisles come from the north and I have found one Lisle widow called Joan who married a Talbot - Sir Gilbert who died in 1397.
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
>
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
>
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 15:28:01
Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
>
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
>
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
>
> More digging methinks.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> >
> > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> >
> > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> >
> > I shall continue the search. H
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > >
> > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > >
> > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > >
> > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > >
> > > Back to the Percivals H
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > >
> > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > >
> > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > >
> > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers H
> > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
>
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
>
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
>
> More digging methinks.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> >
> > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> >
> > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> >
> > I shall continue the search. H
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > >
> > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > >
> > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > >
> > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > >
> > > Back to the Percivals H
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > >
> > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > >
> > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > >
> > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers H
> > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 15:51:34
hjnatdat wrote:
"Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
See Hampton 1976 p. 15
But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
(Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
More digging methinks."
Doug here:
Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
Anyway, good hunting!
"Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
See Hampton 1976 p. 15
But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
(Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
More digging methinks."
Doug here:
Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
Anyway, good hunting!
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 15:56:03
Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
________________________________
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
hjnatdat wrote:
"Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
See Hampton 1976 p. 15
But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
(Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
More digging methinks."
Doug here:
Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
Anyway, good hunting!
________________________________
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
hjnatdat wrote:
"Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
See Hampton 1976 p. 15
But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
(Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
More digging methinks."
Doug here:
Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
Anyway, good hunting!
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 16:38:39
http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
Further down the page
Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
>
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
>
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
>
> More digging methinks.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> >
> > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> >
> > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> >
> > I shall continue the search. H
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > >
> > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > >
> > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > >
> > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > >
> > > Back to the Percivals H
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > >
> > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > >
> > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > >
> > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers H
> > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Further down the page
Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
>
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
>
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
>
> More digging methinks.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hjnatdat
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> >
> > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> >
> > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> >
> > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> >
> > I shall continue the search. H
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > >
> > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > >
> > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > >
> > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > >
> > > Back to the Percivals H
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > >
> > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > >
> > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > >
> > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > >
> > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers H
> > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 16:51:07
Well, as far as an aunt being younger than her nephew, it's not completely unheard of; I work with a woman whose eldest grandson is two years older than her youngest son. When you have women of 16 marrying and having kids, it's bound to happen that some 36-year-old women will add an infant to the family just when her eldest daughter has her first child at 17.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 17:05:18
Yes, my grandmother was the eldest of twelve. Her baby sister and my mother were virtually the same age. I would imagine it was very common in earlier times when so many women died in childbirth, and a replacement was found very quickly. That is actually what is so confusing on J A-H's book " Eleanor, The Secret Queen". So many marriages, and to distant cousins, and with lands and titles handled differently in each family.
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 7, 2013, at 10:51 AM, "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...<mailto:mcjohn@...>> wrote:
Well, as far as an aunt being younger than her nephew, it's not completely unheard of; I work with a woman whose eldest grandson is two years older than her youngest son. When you have women of 16 marrying and having kids, it's bound to happen that some 36-year-old women will add an infant to the family just when her eldest daughter has her first child at 17.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival'sý 'alternative wife'ý was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.ý
>
> ý
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> ý
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 7, 2013, at 10:51 AM, "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...<mailto:mcjohn@...>> wrote:
Well, as far as an aunt being younger than her nephew, it's not completely unheard of; I work with a woman whose eldest grandson is two years older than her youngest son. When you have women of 16 marrying and having kids, it's bound to happen that some 36-year-old women will add an infant to the family just when her eldest daughter has her first child at 17.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival'sý 'alternative wife'ý was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.ý
>
> ý
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> ý
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 17:30:05
Well I have at last (!) found one verified link.
Isabel Cheddar, Eleanor Butler's sister-in-law's sister (take a breath) had a number of children. One married Stillington's daughter's daughter (the daughter Juliana was passed off as his sister or niece) and another Joan Newton (not Joan Cheddar) married Sir John Percival. So the link so far is through the Newtons, but may well go further back as these marriages start around the 1470s (only the Percival one pre-dates Eleanor's death) and we seem to have an earlier Percival link.
I need the York wills to go further. All this is further complicated by those on the web trying to trace their ancestry to Isaac Newton and the aristocracy!!
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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>
Isabel Cheddar, Eleanor Butler's sister-in-law's sister (take a breath) had a number of children. One married Stillington's daughter's daughter (the daughter Juliana was passed off as his sister or niece) and another Joan Newton (not Joan Cheddar) married Sir John Percival. So the link so far is through the Newtons, but may well go further back as these marriages start around the 1470s (only the Percival one pre-dates Eleanor's death) and we seem to have an earlier Percival link.
I need the York wills to go further. All this is further complicated by those on the web trying to trace their ancestry to Isaac Newton and the aristocracy!!
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 17:50:43
Try digging further!! I think an aunt potentially forty years' younger than her nephew would still be pushing it a bit though:)
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 17:05
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Yes, my grandmother was the eldest of twelve. Her baby sister and my mother were virtually the same age. I would imagine it was very common in earlier times when so many women died in childbirth, and a replacement was found very quickly. That is actually what is so confusing on J A-H's book " Eleanor, The Secret Queen". So many marriages, and to distant cousins, and with lands and titles handled differently in each family.
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 7, 2013, at 10:51 AM, "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...<mailto:mcjohn@...>> wrote:
Well, as far as an aunt being younger than her nephew, it's not completely unheard of; I work with a woman whose eldest grandson is two years older than her youngest son. When you have women of 16 marrying and having kids, it's bound to happen that some 36-year-old women will add an infant to the family just when her eldest daughter has her first child at 17.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 17:05
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Yes, my grandmother was the eldest of twelve. Her baby sister and my mother were virtually the same age. I would imagine it was very common in earlier times when so many women died in childbirth, and a replacement was found very quickly. That is actually what is so confusing on J A-H's book " Eleanor, The Secret Queen". So many marriages, and to distant cousins, and with lands and titles handled differently in each family.
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 7, 2013, at 10:51 AM, "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...<mailto:mcjohn@...>> wrote:
Well, as far as an aunt being younger than her nephew, it's not completely unheard of; I work with a woman whose eldest grandson is two years older than her youngest son. When you have women of 16 marrying and having kids, it's bound to happen that some 36-year-old women will add an infant to the family just when her eldest daughter has her first child at 17.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 17:55:45
That looks better. Perhaps the other families are irrelevant.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Well I have at last (!) found one verified link.
Isabel Cheddar, Eleanor Butler's sister-in-law's sister (take a breath) had a number of children. One married Stillington's daughter's daughter (the daughter Juliana was passed off as his sister or niece) and another Joan Newton (not Joan Cheddar) married Sir John Percival. So the link so far is through the Newtons, but may well go further back as these marriages start around the 1470s (only the Percival one pre-dates Eleanor's death) and we seem to have an earlier Percival link.
I need the York wills to go further. All this is further complicated by those on the web trying to trace their ancestry to Isaac Newton and the aristocracy!!
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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>
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Well I have at last (!) found one verified link.
Isabel Cheddar, Eleanor Butler's sister-in-law's sister (take a breath) had a number of children. One married Stillington's daughter's daughter (the daughter Juliana was passed off as his sister or niece) and another Joan Newton (not Joan Cheddar) married Sir John Percival. So the link so far is through the Newtons, but may well go further back as these marriages start around the 1470s (only the Percival one pre-dates Eleanor's death) and we seem to have an earlier Percival link.
I need the York wills to go further. All this is further complicated by those on the web trying to trace their ancestry to Isaac Newton and the aristocracy!!
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> >
>
>
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>
>
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>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-07 18:23:30
I've found a tree in a 19th century book on ancestry. I'm going to have a go at sending it. I have a gedcom file too, but it's a mile off being ready and auditable until I've done more work.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 17:55
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
That looks better. Perhaps the other families are irrelevant.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Well I have at last (!) found one verified link.
Isabel Cheddar, Eleanor Butler's sister-in-law's sister (take a breath) had a number of children. One married Stillington's daughter's daughter (the daughter Juliana was passed off as his sister or niece) and another Joan Newton (not Joan Cheddar) married Sir John Percival. So the link so far is through the Newtons, but may well go further back as these marriages start around the 1470s (only the Percival one pre-dates Eleanor's death) and we seem to have an earlier Percival link.
I need the York wills to go further. All this is further complicated by those on the web trying to trace their ancestry to Isaac Newton and the aristocracy!!
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 17:55
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
That looks better. Perhaps the other families are irrelevant.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Well I have at last (!) found one verified link.
Isabel Cheddar, Eleanor Butler's sister-in-law's sister (take a breath) had a number of children. One married Stillington's daughter's daughter (the daughter Juliana was passed off as his sister or niece) and another Joan Newton (not Joan Cheddar) married Sir John Percival. So the link so far is through the Newtons, but may well go further back as these marriages start around the 1470s (only the Percival one pre-dates Eleanor's death) and we seem to have an earlier Percival link.
I need the York wills to go further. All this is further complicated by those on the web trying to trace their ancestry to Isaac Newton and the aristocracy!!
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ricardian_index.php
> Further down the page
> Let me know if you get into it. Have now discovered that Sir John Percival's 'alternative wife' was Sir John Newton's daughter (presumably Isabel's), also named Joan and the ex-wife of one Richard King.Â
>
> Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 15:27
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Can you post a link or full title? This could be the answer.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Found it. It's an article on Stillington on R III website - W E Hampton 1976. How does one get at it?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> >
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425 (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> >
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> >
> > More digging methinks.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have Hancock? In the Index, check which pages Stillington is mentioned on and visit them, looking for the footnotes.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hjnatdat
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well this will cheer you up because I've just lost the Percivals. Having read Thomas Cheddar's will in 1443 he only had two daughters, Joan who married Stafford and then John Talbot and died in 1464 without marrying again, and Isabel who married Sir John Newton and died in 1499. She also left a will and had four sons, one of whom is reputed to have married Stillington's granddaughter.
> > >
> > > There's a whole para on Thomas Cheddar's mother, Joan Hanham, who later married Sir Thomas Brooke, which says she had four sons. Richard was the eldest but he died in 1437 and the estate went to Thomas (so the two middle sons seem to have died). Richard had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke (who does exist because he's mentioned in wills) and an illegitimate son John, whom Thomas gave back some of the estate.
> > >
> > > So where is the Joan Cheddar who married Sir John Percival? Could she have been this John's daughter? Keep surfing. I have the Hancock book. It doesn't say much about Stillington, but I'll have a look through for other clues. Can't do anything about the York wills until their record office opens tomorrow (heaven forfend that libraries and record offices be open when people who work can get to them). Always found that a real pig.
> > >
> > > I shall continue the search. H
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also surfing last night but cannot seem to link the two Chedders and two Percival families conclusively.
> > > > Hicks, useful for once, has pointed out that the Bishop enjoyed several livings at once, in different parts of the country. I may have to wait for Hancock to turn up at my Library and merge in his sources, or even do a "search inside" on Amazon.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are moving towards the realms of certainty now.
> > > >
> > > > I burned the midnight oil and tracked down 6 Stillington wills in the York Probates, including that of brother Thomas, and probably the Bish's father. I can also get hold of the will of Sir Ralph Bigod (father of Thomas's wife Agnes) and some Inglebys.
> > > >
> > > > In Somerset I got hold of the Cheddars and the Newtons. But the Percivals are elusive in both counties so I shall look elsewhere. Of the one or two I've read the myths of genealogy are being revealed.
> > > >
> > > > You could help me. Did I read that JAH did a study on Elizabeth Lucy? Stillington's reputed granddaughter who again reputedly married Isabel Cheddar's son is variously known as Lucy Joan Hampton or Lettice Lucy Hampton. Lucy was a very unusual first name at that time. Do you see where I'm going? I'm sure Alison Weir would be rushing for her pen!:) (The duaughter Juliana is said to have been born in Somerset in 1460. What was Stillington doing there then, and indeed what was he doing 'down south to marry Edward?)
> > > >
> > > > Back to the Percivals H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It could be that multiple marriages are the last part of the solution.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hjnatdat
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 4:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen et al Update:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found Richard Cheddar, Thomas's elder brother, but he only had a daughter Jane who married Thomas Wyke. According to the NA doc it is Thomas's daughter Joan who married John Talbot, having first married Richard Stafford.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have found a John Percival around in Ripon in the 1440s. He could have been Jennet's father or brother and is described in one document as an attorney
> > > > >
> > > > > The only Percival ancestor related to Sir John I can find who does not have recorded issue (or I haven't found it yet) is Walter, younger brother of Sir Richard (b 1380 approx). Sir Richard's elder brother John died without issue and Sir Richard himself seems just to have had sons - John (d 1439 and two Ralfs).
> > > > >
> > > > > I shall continue the search tomorrow.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime what do you know about Stillington's illegitimate daughter Juliana? I could have a Cheddar/Talbot link there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers H
> > > > > (Oh for the joyous certainty of parish registers!)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Stafford Line" (Mid-Anglia Group 2004).
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: justcarol67
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:44 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes. The Staffords of Grafton were fairly distant cousins of the Buckingham branch, not descended from Edward III and not even featured in the little yellow booklet for that reason. The brothers sought sanctuary in Colchester with Lovell for a while after Bosworth.
> > > > > > > One William Stafford of Grafton married Dorothy Stafford of the Buckingham branch and their son rebelled against Elizabeth, being imprisoned.
> > > > > > > Try "Humphrey Stafford Grafton" or "Humphrey Stafford Bosworth" etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol responds:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Stephen. Which little yellow booklet are you referring to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 12:37:21
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 13:50:29
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 14:33:37
The tree you found yesterday is excellent. It may not be the only or simplest connection. It does demonstrate that Stillington was a relative during 1461-4 when the marriage happened and that she chose him as a trustworthy priest for that reason.
As for Hicks, JA-H disproved that by 2008-9. Hicks is so far up denial, he must be living in Cairo.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
As for Hicks, JA-H disproved that by 2008-9. Hicks is so far up denial, he must be living in Cairo.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 19:43:18
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 20:08:59
What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 20:24:37
"........ historians have not even been able satisfactorily to identify Eleanor Butler .........."
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 20:45:22
McJohn wrote:
>
> Well, as far as an aunt being younger than her nephew, it's not completely unheard of; I work with a woman whose eldest grandson is two years older than her youngest son. When you have women of 16 marrying and having kids, it's bound to happen that some 36-year-old women will add an infant to the family just when her eldest daughter has her first child at 17.
Carol responds:
Just to echo this point. My mother has an aunt who is three years younger than she is. My maternal grandfather was the eldest child; this aunt was the youngest. There were probably twenty years between them. I would guess that similar situations occur quite often in large families.
Carol
>
> Well, as far as an aunt being younger than her nephew, it's not completely unheard of; I work with a woman whose eldest grandson is two years older than her youngest son. When you have women of 16 marrying and having kids, it's bound to happen that some 36-year-old women will add an infant to the family just when her eldest daughter has her first child at 17.
Carol responds:
Just to echo this point. My mother has an aunt who is three years younger than she is. My maternal grandfather was the eldest child; this aunt was the youngest. There were probably twenty years between them. I would guess that similar situations occur quite often in large families.
Carol
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 21:42:38
That's funny JAH certainly found lots of proof.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 21:47:48
Massive amounts, mind boggling names, dates, places, wills, etc.
On Apr 8, 2013, at 3:42 PM, "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...<mailto:maryfriend@...>> wrote:
That's funny JAH certainly found lots of proof.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.ý
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> ý
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ýýý
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
On Apr 8, 2013, at 3:42 PM, "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...<mailto:maryfriend@...>> wrote:
That's funny JAH certainly found lots of proof.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.ý
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> ý
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ýýý
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 22:18:31
I shall continue the search - having had a rest from the Cheddars!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 14:32
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The tree you found yesterday is excellent. It may not be the only or simplest connection. It does demonstrate that Stillington was a relative during 1461-4 when the marriage happened and that she chose him as a trustworthy priest for that reason.
As for Hicks, JA-H disproved that by 2008-9. Hicks is so far up denial, he must be living in Cairo.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 14:32
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The tree you found yesterday is excellent. It may not be the only or simplest connection. It does demonstrate that Stillington was a relative during 1461-4 when the marriage happened and that she chose him as a trustworthy priest for that reason.
As for Hicks, JA-H disproved that by 2008-9. Hicks is so far up denial, he must be living in Cairo.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 22:25:04
Have you slept better?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I shall continue the search - having had a rest from the Cheddars!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 14:32
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The tree you found yesterday is excellent. It may not be the only or simplest connection. It does demonstrate that Stillington was a relative during 1461-4 when the marriage happened and that she chose him as a trustworthy priest for that reason.
As for Hicks, JA-H disproved that by 2008-9. Hicks is so far up denial, he must be living in Cairo.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I shall continue the search - having had a rest from the Cheddars!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 14:32
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The tree you found yesterday is excellent. It may not be the only or simplest connection. It does demonstrate that Stillington was a relative during 1461-4 when the marriage happened and that she chose him as a trustworthy priest for that reason.
As for Hicks, JA-H disproved that by 2008-9. Hicks is so far up denial, he must be living in Cairo.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-08 22:44:40
That's it - what a man!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:24
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
"........ historians have not even been able satisfactorily to identify Eleanor Butler .........."
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:24
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
"........ historians have not even been able satisfactorily to identify Eleanor Butler .........."
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 02:44:34
It's all over my head:(
Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 8, 2013, at 4:47 PM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
> Massive amounts, mind boggling names, dates, places, wills, etc.
>
> On Apr 8, 2013, at 3:42 PM, "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...<mailto:maryfriend@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's funny JAH certainly found lots of proof.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>>
>> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
>> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
>> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>>
>> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have ordered the York wills.
>>>
>>> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>>>
>>> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>>>
>>> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>>>
>>> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>>>
>>> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>>>
>>> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
>>>> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>>>>
>>>> ÃÂ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> hjnatdat wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
>>>> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
>>>> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>>>>
>>>> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>>>>
>>>> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
>>>> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
>>>> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
>>>> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
>>>> More digging methinks."
>>>>
>>>> Doug here:
>>>> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
>>>> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
>>>> Anyway, good hunting!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 8, 2013, at 4:47 PM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
> Massive amounts, mind boggling names, dates, places, wills, etc.
>
> On Apr 8, 2013, at 3:42 PM, "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...<mailto:maryfriend@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's funny JAH certainly found lots of proof.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>>
>> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
>> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
>> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>>
>> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have ordered the York wills.
>>>
>>> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>>>
>>> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>>>
>>> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>>>
>>> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>>>
>>> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>>>
>>> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
>>>> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>>>>
>>>> ÃÂ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> hjnatdat wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
>>>> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
>>>> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>>>>
>>>> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>>>>
>>>> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
>>>> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
>>>> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
>>>> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
>>>> More digging methinks."
>>>>
>>>> Doug here:
>>>> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
>>>> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
>>>> Anyway, good hunting!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 09:06:02
He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 09:21:52
Much. On with the struggle.
Glad I found that bit of paper in the end, because it matched me, I wasn't matching it. It's from a source called the History of Bitton in the County of Gloucester which is published in full on ancestry of all places. Perhaps another area to be explored is why the Bish ended up in the Tower at the same time as Clarence. Was there a Clarence connection, or was Catesby, who served the Butlers and Clarence the link? Shall keep sifting relationships. Sir Edmund Gorge, Jane Hampton's last
husband seems to have been very close to EIV and his first wife was the daughter of John Howard.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 22:24
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Have you slept better?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I shall continue the search - having had a rest from the Cheddars!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 14:32
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The tree you found yesterday is excellent. It may not be the only or simplest connection. It does demonstrate that Stillington was a relative during 1461-4 when the marriage happened and that she chose him as a trustworthy priest for that reason.
As for Hicks, JA-H disproved that by 2008-9. Hicks is so far up denial, he must be living in Cairo.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Glad I found that bit of paper in the end, because it matched me, I wasn't matching it. It's from a source called the History of Bitton in the County of Gloucester which is published in full on ancestry of all places. Perhaps another area to be explored is why the Bish ended up in the Tower at the same time as Clarence. Was there a Clarence connection, or was Catesby, who served the Butlers and Clarence the link? Shall keep sifting relationships. Sir Edmund Gorge, Jane Hampton's last
husband seems to have been very close to EIV and his first wife was the daughter of John Howard.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 22:24
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Have you slept better?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I shall continue the search - having had a rest from the Cheddars!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 14:32
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The tree you found yesterday is excellent. It may not be the only or simplest connection. It does demonstrate that Stillington was a relative during 1461-4 when the marriage happened and that she chose him as a trustworthy priest for that reason.
As for Hicks, JA-H disproved that by 2008-9. Hicks is so far up denial, he must be living in Cairo.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I have ordered the York wills.
So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
>
> hjnatdat wrote:
>
> "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
>
> See Hampton 1976 p. 15
>
> But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> More digging methinks."
>
> Doug here:
> Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> Anyway, good hunting!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 09:27:06
It's me and Stephen being boring. Wait till he makes a grand announcement like Edward and Stillington shared the same mistress - I am only jokng but I hope Alison Weir picks it up!!!
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 21:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Massive amounts, mind boggling names, dates, places, wills, etc.
On Apr 8, 2013, at 3:42 PM, "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...<mailto:maryfriend@...>> wrote:
That's funny JAH certainly found lots of proof.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.‚
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> ‚
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ƒd
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 21:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Massive amounts, mind boggling names, dates, places, wills, etc.
On Apr 8, 2013, at 3:42 PM, "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...<mailto:maryfriend@...>> wrote:
That's funny JAH certainly found lots of proof.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.‚
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> ‚
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ƒd
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 10:11:53
Hicks is Professor of Med.History at Winchester. He taught my brother-in-law back in the late Seventies/early Eighties.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 11:12:40
He was at Winchester when we communicated nine years ago about Thomas Stafford. I subsequently discovered (Strype) a source that holed his article's ending below the waterline.
----- Original Message -----
From: colyngbourne
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Hicks is Professor of Med.History at Winchester. He taught my brother-in-law back in the late Seventies/early Eighties.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: colyngbourne
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Hicks is Professor of Med.History at Winchester. He taught my brother-in-law back in the late Seventies/early Eighties.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 12:16:35
Yes sorry that's right. Knew it was somewhere down south
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 11:12
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He was at Winchester when we communicated nine years ago about Thomas Stafford. I subsequently discovered (Strype) a source that holed his article's ending below the waterline.
----- Original Message -----
From: colyngbourne
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Hicks is Professor of Med.History at Winchester. He taught my brother-in-law back in the late Seventies/early Eighties.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 11:12
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He was at Winchester when we communicated nine years ago about Thomas Stafford. I subsequently discovered (Strype) a source that holed his article's ending below the waterline.
----- Original Message -----
From: colyngbourne
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Hicks is Professor of Med.History at Winchester. He taught my brother-in-law back in the late Seventies/early Eighties.
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 15:32:51
Glad I'm not studying there
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
________________________________
From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
________________________________
From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.
________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I have ordered the York wills.
>
> So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
>
> So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
>
> I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
>
> By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
>
> The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> > hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> >
> > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> >
> > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > More digging methinks."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > Anyway, good hunting!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 16:11:35
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 16:30:35
Hilary I'm not bored and think most people would say the same. This is fascinating
________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 16:47:22
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 17:11:45
Good Lord, no&this is the prime reason most of us are on the site. Without all who know so much, I would still be on THE BIG BOOK OF PLANTAGENETS, with the big print and small sentences!
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:31 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Hilary I'm not bored and think most people would say the same. This is fascinating
________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>>
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...<mailto:ferrymansdaughter@...>> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat@...>>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:31 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Hilary I'm not bored and think most people would say the same. This is fascinating
________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>>
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...<mailto:ferrymansdaughter@...>> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat@...>>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 17:21:19
No the second is hypothetical and Stillington's lot did have a Stafford connection but via Sir Humphrey (not Buckingham) Stafford whose daughter Joyce was Jane Ingleby's mother. All very convoluted.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 17:29:52
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 17:39:03
Years ago I read in the DNB Edward restored the Earldom of Shrewsbury to Humphrey in 1468.The year that Eleanor died! You are not boring me I find it fascinating that you and Stephen are doing all this research. Every bit helps to put some more pieces in the jigsaw.
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
>
> Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
> By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
>
> The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > Glad I'm not studying there
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > To: "" <>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> > He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> > What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> > He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> > Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have ordered the York wills.
> > >
> > > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> > >
> > > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> > >
> > > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> > >
> > > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> > >
> > > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > > >
> > > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > > >
> > > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > > More digging methinks."
> > > >
> > > > Doug here:
> > > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
>
> Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
> By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
>
> The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > Glad I'm not studying there
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > To: "" <>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> > He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> > What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> > He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> > Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have ordered the York wills.
> > >
> > > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> > >
> > > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> > >
> > > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> > >
> > > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> > >
> > > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > > >
> > > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > > >
> > > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > > More digging methinks."
> > > >
> > > > Doug here:
> > > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 17:57:06
This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 18:05:40
Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 18:16:17
liz williams wrote:
"Hilary I'm not bored and think most people would say the same. This is
fascinating"
Ditto here!
BTW, perhaps what you need is a good port to go with those "Cheddars"?
Doug
________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple
of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the
Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane
Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot,
Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so
there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's
honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot
was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died
in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any
chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that
MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death
of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams
<ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was
> supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study
> historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He
> really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist
> full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat"
> <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a
> > tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear
> > that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about
> > this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke
> > in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were
> > born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as
> > a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied
> > them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we
> > looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't
> > plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he
> > was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time
> > came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid
> > 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother
> > was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started
> > marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down
> > south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence
> > country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically
> > claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones
> > <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from
> > > an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through
> > > his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in
> > > 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
"Hilary I'm not bored and think most people would say the same. This is
fascinating"
Ditto here!
BTW, perhaps what you need is a good port to go with those "Cheddars"?
Doug
________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple
of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the
Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane
Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot,
Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so
there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's
honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot
was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died
in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any
chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that
MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death
of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams
<ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was
> supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study
> historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He
> really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist
> full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat"
> <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a
> > tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear
> > that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about
> > this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke
> > in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were
> > born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as
> > a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied
> > them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we
> > looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't
> > plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he
> > was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time
> > came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid
> > 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother
> > was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started
> > marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down
> > south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence
> > country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically
> > claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones
> > <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from
> > > an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through
> > > his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in
> > > 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 21:18:32
ET's brother-in-law would be a proven cousin of the Bishop's sister-in-law through common Bigod descent if your sources are correct and if I have remembered correctly that the Brethertons were of Bigod descent. I could construct something tentative on this basis.
Hancock, however, claims that Joan Chedder is involved. I wonder what you have on the Scobhills, her mother's family. Do they lead to what we have already found?
PS I work in PowerPoint, as you can see from the Forum Files.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hancock, however, claims that Joan Chedder is involved. I wonder what you have on the Scobhills, her mother's family. Do they lead to what we have already found?
PS I work in PowerPoint, as you can see from the Forum Files.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-09 23:37:42
Hilary posted of Hicks continuing to deny the existence of Eleanor Talbot that
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or
not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
The analogy that springs to mind is of J Edgar Hoover's denial of the Mafia and organised crime.
Elaine
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or
not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
The analogy that springs to mind is of J Edgar Hoover's denial of the Mafia and organised crime.
Elaine
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-10 00:14:16
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Much. On with the struggle.
> Glad I found that bit of paper in the end, because it matched me, I wasn't matching it. It's from a source called the History of Bitton in the County of Gloucester which is published in full on ancestry of all places. Perhaps another area to be explored is why the Bish ended up in the Tower at the same time as Clarence. Was there a Clarence connection, or was Catesby, who served the Butlers and Clarence the link? Shall keep sifting relationships. [snip]
Carol responds:
There was definitely a connection between Stillington and George of Clarence. I think that his main bihopric (Bath and Wells?) was on land that George owned or controlled, and I'm certain that he was among the people (including his mother and sisters) who pleaded with George to return to his allegiance before Barnet. Kendall provides some information on the connection. So, IIRC, does J-AH.
Carol
>
> Much. On with the struggle.
> Glad I found that bit of paper in the end, because it matched me, I wasn't matching it. It's from a source called the History of Bitton in the County of Gloucester which is published in full on ancestry of all places. Perhaps another area to be explored is why the Bish ended up in the Tower at the same time as Clarence. Was there a Clarence connection, or was Catesby, who served the Butlers and Clarence the link? Shall keep sifting relationships. [snip]
Carol responds:
There was definitely a connection between Stillington and George of Clarence. I think that his main bihopric (Bath and Wells?) was on land that George owned or controlled, and I'm certain that he was among the people (including his mother and sisters) who pleaded with George to return to his allegiance before Barnet. Kendall provides some information on the connection. So, IIRC, does J-AH.
Carol
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-10 09:22:47
I'll get on that case. I clash with JAH on Catherine Stafford by the way, he says it was Catherine Burnell, but a lot of Stafford gealogies have her as Stafford. I'll double check. He also says Thomas Cheddar was lowly gentry (not the exact wording). He wasn't; according to several accounts he was very rich via his mother Joan Hanham and then his brother Richard. Am out today but will come back this evening.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 21:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
ET's brother-in-law would be a proven cousin of the Bishop's sister-in-law through common Bigod descent if your sources are correct and if I have remembered correctly that the Brethertons were of Bigod descent. I could construct something tentative on this basis.
Hancock, however, claims that Joan Chedder is involved. I wonder what you have on the Scobhills, her mother's family. Do they lead to what we have already found?
PS I work in PowerPoint, as you can see from the Forum Files.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 21:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
ET's brother-in-law would be a proven cousin of the Bishop's sister-in-law through common Bigod descent if your sources are correct and if I have remembered correctly that the Brethertons were of Bigod descent. I could construct something tentative on this basis.
Hancock, however, claims that Joan Chedder is involved. I wonder what you have on the Scobhills, her mother's family. Do they lead to what we have already found?
PS I work in PowerPoint, as you can see from the Forum Files.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > Ã,Â
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-10 09:25:55
Thanks Carol, there are enough strands to keep me going for months. I think it was Eileen who pointed out the proximity of Farleigh Hundergford. But it's great fun if you come up for air occasionally.
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 10 April 2013, 0:14
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Much. On with the struggle.
> Glad I found that bit of paper in the end, because it matched me, I wasn't matching it. It's from a source called the History of Bitton in the County of Gloucester which is published in full on ancestry of all places. Perhaps another area to be explored is why the Bish ended up in the Tower at the same time as Clarence. Was there a Clarence connection, or was Catesby, who served the Butlers and Clarence the link? Shall keep sifting relationships. [snip]
Carol responds:
There was definitely a connection between Stillington and George of Clarence. I think that his main bihopric (Bath and Wells?) was on land that George owned or controlled, and I'm certain that he was among the people (including his mother and sisters) who pleaded with George to return to his allegiance before Barnet. Kendall provides some information on the connection. So, IIRC, does J-AH.
Carol
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 10 April 2013, 0:14
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Much. On with the struggle.
> Glad I found that bit of paper in the end, because it matched me, I wasn't matching it. It's from a source called the History of Bitton in the County of Gloucester which is published in full on ancestry of all places. Perhaps another area to be explored is why the Bish ended up in the Tower at the same time as Clarence. Was there a Clarence connection, or was Catesby, who served the Butlers and Clarence the link? Shall keep sifting relationships. [snip]
Carol responds:
There was definitely a connection between Stillington and George of Clarence. I think that his main bihopric (Bath and Wells?) was on land that George owned or controlled, and I'm certain that he was among the people (including his mother and sisters) who pleaded with George to return to his allegiance before Barnet. Kendall provides some information on the connection. So, IIRC, does J-AH.
Carol
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-10 09:27:49
Doug - what a good idea. How better than to sooth the indigestion! H
________________________________
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:18
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
liz williams wrote:
"Hilary I'm not bored and think most people would say the same. This is
fascinating"
Ditto here!
BTW, perhaps what you need is a good port to go with those "Cheddars"?
Doug
________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple
of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the
Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane
Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot,
Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so
there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's
honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot
was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died
in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any
chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that
MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death
of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams
<ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was
> supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study
> historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He
> really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist
> full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat"
> <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a
> > tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear
> > that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about
> > this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke
> > in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were
> > born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as
> > a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied
> > them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we
> > looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't
> > plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he
> > was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time
> > came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid
> > 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother
> > was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started
> > marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down
> > south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence
> > country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically
> > claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones
> > <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from
> > > an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through
> > > his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in
> > > 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
________________________________
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:18
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
liz williams wrote:
"Hilary I'm not bored and think most people would say the same. This is
fascinating"
Ditto here!
BTW, perhaps what you need is a good port to go with those "Cheddars"?
Doug
________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple
of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the
Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane
Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot,
Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so
there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's
honour?
The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot
was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died
in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any
chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that
MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death
of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams
<ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Glad I'm not studying there
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
> Â
>
> What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was
> supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study
> historical sources?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
> He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He
> really does need that revision course.Â
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Â
>
> Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist
> full stop?
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat"
> <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > I have ordered the York wills.
> >
> > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a
> > tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear
> > that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about
> > this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke
> > in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were
> > born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> >
> > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as
> > a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied
> > them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we
> > looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't
> > plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he
> > was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time
> > came?
> >
> > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid
> > 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother
> > was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started
> > marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down
> > south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> >
> > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence
> > country.
> >
> > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically
> > claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones
> > <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from
> > > an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through
> > > his aunt
> > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > >
> > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > >
> > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in
> > > 1425
> > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > More digging methinks."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-10 18:23:49
I've yet to do the Bigods because the wills haven't come and I thought I'd do it all then - but I will tomorrow whatever.
However, I've looked a Joan Hanham (also of course Joan Cheddar by her marriage to Robert Cheddar, Mayor of Bristol who is described as a wealthy merchant, but in fact he left considerable property as well; he owned most of Somerset). She was the other Joan Cheddar's grandmother. Robert Cheddar went insane and a lot of his property went to Joan's second husband Sir Thomas Brooke who was MP for Somerset. Now he'd been involved in a brawl when Ralph Stafford, eldest son of Hugh Earl of Stafford was killed and then was pardoned personally by the King. Brooke was suspected of being a Lollard but his and Joan's son went on to marry the heiress of the Cobhams and the Peverels (has this been confused with Perceval). These would have been the cousins Joan and Isabel Cheddar. So the Staffords again seem to be the biggest blood link to Stillington at this time in the north, I have to follow that up and will do tomorrow.
Secondly Joan Hanham's co-heiress sister, Ismania married twice and her granddaughter was Alice Chaucer, Duchess of Suffolk and through her the ancestress of the de la Poles. The whole thing is huge and also links in again to the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
By the way JAH's candidate never married Talbot, they had to wait for a dispensation and it never happened. I forgive him ....:) H
Onwards again tomorrow. Sorry it's so convoluted.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ET's brother-in-law would be a proven cousin of the Bishop's sister-in-law through common Bigod descent if your sources are correct and if I have remembered correctly that the Brethertons were of Bigod descent. I could construct something tentative on this basis.
> Hancock, however, claims that Joan Chedder is involved. I wonder what you have on the Scobhills, her mother's family. Do they lead to what we have already found?
>
> PS I work in PowerPoint, as you can see from the Forum Files.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
> The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
>
> Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
> By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
>
> The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > Glad I'm not studying there
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > To: "" <>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> > He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> > What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> > He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> > Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have ordered the York wills.
> > >
> > > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> > >
> > > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> > >
> > > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> > >
> > > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> > >
> > > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > > Ã,Â
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > > >
> > > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > > >
> > > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > > More digging methinks."
> > > >
> > > > Doug here:
> > > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
However, I've looked a Joan Hanham (also of course Joan Cheddar by her marriage to Robert Cheddar, Mayor of Bristol who is described as a wealthy merchant, but in fact he left considerable property as well; he owned most of Somerset). She was the other Joan Cheddar's grandmother. Robert Cheddar went insane and a lot of his property went to Joan's second husband Sir Thomas Brooke who was MP for Somerset. Now he'd been involved in a brawl when Ralph Stafford, eldest son of Hugh Earl of Stafford was killed and then was pardoned personally by the King. Brooke was suspected of being a Lollard but his and Joan's son went on to marry the heiress of the Cobhams and the Peverels (has this been confused with Perceval). These would have been the cousins Joan and Isabel Cheddar. So the Staffords again seem to be the biggest blood link to Stillington at this time in the north, I have to follow that up and will do tomorrow.
Secondly Joan Hanham's co-heiress sister, Ismania married twice and her granddaughter was Alice Chaucer, Duchess of Suffolk and through her the ancestress of the de la Poles. The whole thing is huge and also links in again to the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
By the way JAH's candidate never married Talbot, they had to wait for a dispensation and it never happened. I forgive him ....:) H
Onwards again tomorrow. Sorry it's so convoluted.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ET's brother-in-law would be a proven cousin of the Bishop's sister-in-law through common Bigod descent if your sources are correct and if I have remembered correctly that the Brethertons were of Bigod descent. I could construct something tentative on this basis.
> Hancock, however, claims that Joan Chedder is involved. I wonder what you have on the Scobhills, her mother's family. Do they lead to what we have already found?
>
> PS I work in PowerPoint, as you can see from the Forum Files.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
> The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
>
> Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
> By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
>
> The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > Glad I'm not studying there
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > To: "" <>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> > He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> > What? I can's say what I think about that. I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian? Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> > He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.Â
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > Â
> >
> > Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have ordered the York wills.
> > >
> > > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> > >
> > > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> > >
> > > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> > >
> > > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> > >
> > > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > > Ã,Â
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > > >
> > > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > > >
> > > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > > More digging methinks."
> > > >
> > > > Doug here:
> > > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-10 18:54:58
The whole group of royals are convoluted with intermarriages between families, names passed down from generation to generation. It does make one's eyes cross. I do have the "De La Pole" which Carol suggested. I haven't cracked it open, but have it, if you need me to try and find someone.
On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:23 PM, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat@...>> wrote:
I've yet to do the Bigods because the wills haven't come and I thought I'd do it all then - but I will tomorrow whatever.
However, I've looked a Joan Hanham (also of course Joan Cheddar by her marriage to Robert Cheddar, Mayor of Bristol who is described as a wealthy merchant, but in fact he left considerable property as well; he owned most of Somerset). She was the other Joan Cheddar's grandmother. Robert Cheddar went insane and a lot of his property went to Joan's second husband Sir Thomas Brooke who was MP for Somerset. Now he'd been involved in a brawl when Ralph Stafford, eldest son of Hugh Earl of Stafford was killed and then was pardoned personally by the King. Brooke was suspected of being a Lollard but his and Joan's son went on to marry the heiress of the Cobhams and the Peverels (has this been confused with Perceval). These would have been the cousins Joan and Isabel Cheddar. So the Staffords again seem to be the biggest blood link to Stillington at this time in the north, I have to follow that up and will do tomorrow.
Secondly Joan Hanham's co-heiress sister, Ismania married twice and her granddaughter was Alice Chaucer, Duchess of Suffolk and through her the ancestress of the de la Poles. The whole thing is huge and also links in again to the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
By the way JAH's candidate never married Talbot, they had to wait for a dispensation and it never happened. I forgive him ....:) H
Onwards again tomorrow. Sorry it's so convoluted.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ET's brother-in-law would be a proven cousin of the Bishop's sister-in-law through common Bigod descent if your sources are correct and if I have remembered correctly that the Brethertons were of Bigod descent. I could construct something tentative on this basis.
> Hancock, however, claims that Joan Chedder is involved. I wonder what you have on the Scobhills, her mother's family. Do they lead to what we have already found?
>
> PS I work in PowerPoint, as you can see from the Forum Files.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
> The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
>
> Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
> By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
>
> The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > Glad I'm not studying there
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>" <<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > ýý
> > He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com<http://40btinternet.com>>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> > ýý
> >
> > What?ýý I can's say what I think about that.ýý I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian?ýý Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com<http://40yahoo.com>>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > ýý
> > He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.ýý
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com<http://40waitrose.com>>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > ýý
> >
> > Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have ordered the York wills.
> > >
> > > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> > >
> > > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> > >
> > > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> > >
> > > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> > >
> > > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > > ýý,ýý
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > > >
> > > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > > >
> > > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > > More digging methinks."
> > > >
> > > > Doug here:
> > > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:23 PM, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...<mailto:hjnatdat@...>> wrote:
I've yet to do the Bigods because the wills haven't come and I thought I'd do it all then - but I will tomorrow whatever.
However, I've looked a Joan Hanham (also of course Joan Cheddar by her marriage to Robert Cheddar, Mayor of Bristol who is described as a wealthy merchant, but in fact he left considerable property as well; he owned most of Somerset). She was the other Joan Cheddar's grandmother. Robert Cheddar went insane and a lot of his property went to Joan's second husband Sir Thomas Brooke who was MP for Somerset. Now he'd been involved in a brawl when Ralph Stafford, eldest son of Hugh Earl of Stafford was killed and then was pardoned personally by the King. Brooke was suspected of being a Lollard but his and Joan's son went on to marry the heiress of the Cobhams and the Peverels (has this been confused with Perceval). These would have been the cousins Joan and Isabel Cheddar. So the Staffords again seem to be the biggest blood link to Stillington at this time in the north, I have to follow that up and will do tomorrow.
Secondly Joan Hanham's co-heiress sister, Ismania married twice and her granddaughter was Alice Chaucer, Duchess of Suffolk and through her the ancestress of the de la Poles. The whole thing is huge and also links in again to the Butler Earls of Ormonde.
By the way JAH's candidate never married Talbot, they had to wait for a dispensation and it never happened. I forgive him ....:) H
Onwards again tomorrow. Sorry it's so convoluted.
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ET's brother-in-law would be a proven cousin of the Bishop's sister-in-law through common Bigod descent if your sources are correct and if I have remembered correctly that the Brethertons were of Bigod descent. I could construct something tentative on this basis.
> Hancock, however, claims that Joan Chedder is involved. I wonder what you have on the Scobhills, her mother's family. Do they lead to what we have already found?
>
> PS I work in PowerPoint, as you can see from the Forum Files.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Of course!! :) Ralph Bigod left a will so I shall invesitgate.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 17:57
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> This is useful. Remember who EB's sister married?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> The Bigods seem to be descended from the first Earls of Norfolk and Katherine Stillington's mother (ie Bish's sister-in-law) was Agnes Bigod and they married in the early 1450s ie pre-Eleanor. Her father and brother died at Towton fighting for Lancaster. So I would say there is a blood relationship to the Norfolk family, if I can nail it.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 16:47
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Both are useful - the second explains some motivation.
> The first is more about affinity than blood relations. The second is simpler but I can't see Stillington's family connection.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Firstly I do apologise for boring the pants off most people on this forum.
>
> Stephen, having not yet received the Stillington wills I've found a couple of other family links to Eleanor. One is through the Bigod/Mowbray/Howard/Constables - Katherine Stillington's daughter Jane Ingleby married into the Constables of Framlingham. Humphrey Talbot, Eleanor's brother seems to have joined the Howard retainers (JS(JAH) so there is yet another connection with the Norfolks.
> By the way, why did our Humf never say anything to defend his sister's honour?
>
> The other is through the 'Buckingham' Staffords. Catherine (Stafford) Talbot was married to Eleanor's step-nephew, John 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, who died in 1473. She was the sister-in-law of MB but she died in 1476. Is there any chance that this could have been known in the family for some time and that MB knew the moment to prime her nephew Harry Buckingham ie after the death of Edward IV? I know it sounds like spooks but ?? Cheers H.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > Glad I'm not studying there
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>" <<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:06
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > ýý
> > He's Professor of Medieval History at Exeter, I think.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com<http://40btinternet.com>>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 20:08
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> >
> > ýý
> >
> > What?ýý I can's say what I think about that.ýý I thought the man was supposed to be some sort of historian?ýý Doesn't he know how to study historical sources?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com<http://40yahoo.com>>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 19:43
> > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > ýý
> > He says he can find no proof that she ever existed - Edward or not!!! He really does need that revision course.ýý
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com<http://40waitrose.com>>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013, 13:50
> > Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> >
> > ýý
> >
> > Do you think he meant that she was never Edward's wife or did not exist full stop?
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have ordered the York wills.
> > >
> > > So where are we going on this? Are we trying to say Stillington had a tie in with Eleanor at the time of the pre-contract? It would appear that Juliana (be she daughter, sister, niece) married John Hampton about this time, but her children were still in the wardship of Richard Chokke in 1483 and the chart I gave you has her dying in 1466, so they were born what, about 1463ish (though some have it much later)?
> > >
> > > So Stillington was operating in the Somerset area in the early 1460s as a Dean,I've read, despite Hicks. The Newton marriage which really tied them together seems to have happened after Stillington's death. Are we looking for an earlier connection which proves that Stillington wasn't plucked out of the air to perform the 'ceremony', or are we saying he was put up to the disclosure by Eleanor's relations, when the right time came?
> > >
> > > I can't tell until I get the wills, but Stillington, until the mid 1460s, seems to have come from a slightly gentrified family (his mother was an heiress) but it all took off in the 1460s when they started marrying into the Inglebys and the Constables, and the gentry 'down south'. So the reward theory does appear viable.
> > >
> > > By the way for most of this time he seems to have been deep in Clarence country.
> > >
> > > The best quote I found so far in all this is Hicks who categorically claims that Eleanor did not exist. H
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes - cousin particularly covered everything. I am having a break from an overdose of the Cheddars!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:54
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> > > >
> > > > ýý,ýý
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hjnatdat wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Hancock page 103 (he forgets to put Stillington into the index)
> > > > 'Stillington himself was actually related to Eleanor Butler through his aunt
> > > > Lady Lisle's (Joan Cheddar) relations to the Talbots'
> > > >
> > > > See Hampton 1976 p. 15
> > > >
> > > > But how could that Joan Cheddar be his aunt? We know she was born in 1425
> > > > (Berkeley archives say so) and we think he was born circa 1420.
> > > > The name Hampton is interestingly co-incidental though and Sir Richard
> > > > Percival also married a Hampton - Catherine.
> > > > More digging methinks."
> > > >
> > > > Doug here:
> > > > Just a suggestion, but could the "aunt" be a courtesy title? Were such
> > > > titles used then to describe close, non-family people?
> > > > Anyway, good hunting!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-13 21:34:14
Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
I didn't mention any names;)
I didn't mention any names;)
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-13 22:44:36
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-14 21:23:28
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-15 09:17:01
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-15 14:12:23
In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-15 15:33:39
Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-15 16:01:09
I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
I will eventually PP this for consideration.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
I will eventually PP this for consideration.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-15 17:53:17
John Talbot, Eleanor's brother was first Viscount Lisle? His son Thomas who died at Nibley Green in 1470 was 2nd Viscount?
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 16:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
I will eventually PP this for consideration.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 16:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
I will eventually PP this for consideration.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
----- Original Message -----
From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
>
> I didn't mention any names;)
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-15 22:24:15
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-15 22:36:17
Thankyou. I will try this.
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-15 22:37:55
Thanks Elaine, yes that would do fine. I have sent stuff to others who have used this and it has come out all right - I'm not sure whether the notes will transfer in the same format but that's a secondary issue. It would make the discussions so much easier. Is it still available from familysearch.org - nearly all these free sites seem to be doing deals with ancestry (and I hate their new format - nothing to do with the software)
________________________________
From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 22:24
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record
of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 22:24
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record
of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 13:00:38
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 13:58:35
Right - is it better if I send my gedcom file to your personal email? I will keep updating it and send you updates? Still working. Found another Stillington, William, Archdeacon of Norfolk and Canon of St Pauls London who refers in his will of 1524 to Richard Nyke. Do you reckon he was one of our Robert's sons? Richard Nyke seems to have been a rather nasty character and is referred to in one document as the 'blind bishop' - which is interesting. Can't find his father, Thomas Nyke, anywhere yet.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 13:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 13:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 14:47:17
Yes, please - it is available.
William is more probably a nephew as there would have been difficulties for a bastard trying to enter holy orders.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Right - is it better if I send my gedcom file to your personal email? I will keep updating it and send you updates? Still working. Found another Stillington, William, Archdeacon of Norfolk and Canon of St Pauls London who refers in his will of 1524 to Richard Nyke. Do you reckon he was one of our Robert's sons? Richard Nyke seems to have been a rather nasty character and is referred to in one document as the 'blind bishop' - which is interesting. Can't find his father, Thomas Nyke, anywhere yet.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 13:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
William is more probably a nephew as there would have been difficulties for a bastard trying to enter holy orders.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Right - is it better if I send my gedcom file to your personal email? I will keep updating it and send you updates? Still working. Found another Stillington, William, Archdeacon of Norfolk and Canon of St Pauls London who refers in his will of 1524 to Richard Nyke. Do you reckon he was one of our Robert's sons? Richard Nyke seems to have been a rather nasty character and is referred to in one document as the 'blind bishop' - which is interesting. Can't find his father, Thomas Nyke, anywhere yet.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 13:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 15:15:10
Will do when checked for obvious errors.
So he must have been some unrecorded son of Thomas? I think Jennet must have been Thomas's first wife (or even a second wife of father John), as Robert was obviously the oldest to inherit the Holthorpe/de Holm manors.
Still waiting for those wills, which could solve a lot.
My only link with the Bigods and the Mowbrays goes right back to Ralph of Westmorland where they share a common descent. No sign of the Brothertons, other than reading about the Roger Bigod dispute.
I have two scenarios - Stillington was a trusted friend/family member of the Talbots and was asked by them to do justice by Eleanor (yours I think). He is certainly close to the Staffords of Grafton including our Humphrey who met a nasty end after supporting Lovell
or he knew Morton in their Oxford days, knew something 'went on' with Eleanor from the Talbots and was put up to the revelation by Morton (and MB) to upset the apple cart during the turmoil of the summer 1483. Could even have approached Clarence earlier.
Either way I don't have him as a daft aged man. And it will take a heck of a lot of digging out.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 14:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Yes, please - it is available.
William is more probably a nephew as there would have been difficulties for a bastard trying to enter holy orders.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Right - is it better if I send my gedcom file to your personal email? I will keep updating it and send you updates? Still working. Found another Stillington, William, Archdeacon of Norfolk and Canon of St Pauls London who refers in his will of 1524 to Richard Nyke. Do you reckon he was one of our Robert's sons? Richard Nyke seems to have been a rather nasty character and is referred to in one document as the 'blind bishop' - which is interesting. Can't find his father, Thomas Nyke, anywhere yet.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 13:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
So he must have been some unrecorded son of Thomas? I think Jennet must have been Thomas's first wife (or even a second wife of father John), as Robert was obviously the oldest to inherit the Holthorpe/de Holm manors.
Still waiting for those wills, which could solve a lot.
My only link with the Bigods and the Mowbrays goes right back to Ralph of Westmorland where they share a common descent. No sign of the Brothertons, other than reading about the Roger Bigod dispute.
I have two scenarios - Stillington was a trusted friend/family member of the Talbots and was asked by them to do justice by Eleanor (yours I think). He is certainly close to the Staffords of Grafton including our Humphrey who met a nasty end after supporting Lovell
or he knew Morton in their Oxford days, knew something 'went on' with Eleanor from the Talbots and was put up to the revelation by Morton (and MB) to upset the apple cart during the turmoil of the summer 1483. Could even have approached Clarence earlier.
Either way I don't have him as a daft aged man. And it will take a heck of a lot of digging out.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 14:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Yes, please - it is available.
William is more probably a nephew as there would have been difficulties for a bastard trying to enter holy orders.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Right - is it better if I send my gedcom file to your personal email? I will keep updating it and send you updates? Still working. Found another Stillington, William, Archdeacon of Norfolk and Canon of St Pauls London who refers in his will of 1524 to Richard Nyke. Do you reckon he was one of our Robert's sons? Richard Nyke seems to have been a rather nasty character and is referred to in one document as the 'blind bishop' - which is interesting. Can't find his father, Thomas Nyke, anywhere yet.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 13:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 15:56:29
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> My only link with the Bigods and the Mowbrays goes right back to Ralph of
> Westmorland where they share a common descent.
I don't know if this is of any interest or use to you in your research, but
I know the Bigods had a presence in South Wales - they built a hunting lodge
which is (now, anyway) called Cas Troggi, a few miles north of Caerwent.
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> My only link with the Bigods and the Mowbrays goes right back to Ralph of
> Westmorland where they share a common descent.
I don't know if this is of any interest or use to you in your research, but
I know the Bigods had a presence in South Wales - they built a hunting lodge
which is (now, anyway) called Cas Troggi, a few miles north of Caerwent.
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 16:56:33
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 14:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Yes, please - it is available.
William is more probably a nephew as there would have been difficulties for a bastard trying to enter holy orders.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Right - is it better if I send my gedcom file to your personal email? I will keep updating it and send you updates? Still working. Found another Stillington, William, Archdeacon of Norfolk and Canon of St Pauls London who refers in his will of 1524 to Richard Nyke. Do you reckon he was one of our Robert's sons? Richard Nyke seems to have been a rather nasty character and is referred to in one document as the 'blind bishop' - which is interesting. Can't find his father, Thomas Nyke, anywhere yet.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 13:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 14:47
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Yes, please - it is available.
William is more probably a nephew as there would have been difficulties for a bastard trying to enter holy orders.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Right - is it better if I send my gedcom file to your personal email? I will keep updating it and send you updates? Still working. Found another Stillington, William, Archdeacon of Norfolk and Canon of St Pauls London who refers in his will of 1524 to Richard Nyke. Do you reckon he was one of our Robert's sons? Richard Nyke seems to have been a rather nasty character and is referred to in one document as the 'blind bishop' - which is interesting. Can't find his father, Thomas Nyke, anywhere yet.
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 13:01
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Now downloaded and there is a useful text file ..........
----- Original Message -----
From: ellrosa1452
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
Stephen
What sort of genealogy software are you looking for? If you want a free one, then you could try Personal Ancestral File (PAF) downloaded for free from www.familysearch.org site.
My students use this on the family history courses I teach. And you can import GEDCOMS into it if necessary. If you want some advice or help how to download it let me know.
Elaine
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have proper genealogy software yet, unless you include PowerPoint, but there may be one I can download.
> We have two Joan Chedders but neither was Viscountess Lisle? My "standard sources" (eg genealogics) do agree with JA-H here so was there a third?
> I will eventually PP this for consideration.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> Supposed to be working but - Joan and Isabel Cheddar were co-heirs to Thomas Cheddar and Isabel Scorbull (got nowhere with her but her father Robert seems to have come from Devon). Joan had previously been married to Richard Stafford (need to follow that up). Joan was born after R Stillington so could have been aunt but unlikely. The other Joan Cheddar (not Lady Lisle but of the right age group) is Thomas's mother, Joan Hanham, who married Robert Cheddar and then Sir Thomas Brooke who has an interesting past. Need to follow up their son Brooke junior who married the Cobham heiress. I'm pretty sure there is a link, but whether through Edward IV or the Talbots is the question. Have you looked at the Belknaps under R2, now there's an interesting story! The Cheddar males didn't seem to have a good survival record - Richard, Thomas's elder son left a widow Elizabeth, Robert and William his other sons seem to have died before 1437 but I can't find a record of
> wives or kids. Richard had an illegitimate son John, but again no mention, except that Thomas settled some of Richard's estates on him.
>
> Wills still haven't come - will complain. A lot of work still to do. Have to follow up/down Stillington's mother Joan who was herself an heiress. What throws me is that Hancock describes Joan Cheddar as Lady Lisle. Is there another Joan Cheddar who was Lady Lisle?
> Do you have a way of reading gedcom files (any family history software will do) and I'll send you my stuff, with notes? Sorry it's scrambled, must get back to work H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 14:13
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
>
>
> In this era of multiple marriages could the younger "Joan Chedder" be the widow of a Chedder? After all Sir John Newton and Isabel de Cheddar could be a different couple to the earlier ones? Isabel is identified as a co-heir of (someone), implying that she had sisters but no surviving brothers. The years of death are also different.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hilary Jones
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> I will come back to you later in the day; have to work at the moment. I didn't come across any Brethertons, I'm pretty sure. You don't think Hampton got muddled when he was on about Joan Cheddar, Lady Lisle (ie Talbot)? He says she was Stillington's aunt but she was sister to the great aunt to Stillington's granddaughter - much later than the pre-contract date though; that's the only aunt relationship I can find at the moment. Stillington's relationships through Anne Greystoke, Agnes Bigod's mother are quite wide-ranging though; the FitzHughs, the Scropes and the Darcys. Still think there is a way to go.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 21:23
> Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigod_family_tree.JPG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Norfolk_family_tree
> I can find no connection between the Bigods and Brethertons/ Mowbrays.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Stillington Genealogy
>
> Stephen, Haven't done any more today as had to work and am still waiting for the blasted wills.
> Still haven't found a Stillington/Cheddar connection but plenty of other. One thing is interesting though, Stillington's sister-in-law's (Agnes Bigod)father and brother died fighting for Lancaster at Towton only months before the Edward/Eleanor liaison. Could Edward have encouraged S to do the deed as part of some sort of pardon deal plus extras?
> Personally I think it will be hard to bottom it in the next day or two -there are too many threads and for what it's worth I find it hard to buy some of Hancock's theories, which I know are centred round Catesby.
> Too late to tell you about that now and have to work tomorrow but will pick it up again if I can on Monday. H.
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Thankyou to Liz for fishing out the Bishop's DNB entry. I have subsequently discovered that my library card number can log me in from home. I have consequently written to the DNB to suggest that certain medieval and post-medieval pages be reviewed to be more accurate, up-to-date and impartial.
> >
> > I didn't mention any names;)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 17:16:28
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufort's half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VII's sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 17:37:49
Hilary Jones wrote:
//snip//
"I have two scenarios - Stillington was a trusted friend/family member of
the Talbots and was asked by them to do justice by Eleanor (yours I think).
He is certainly close to the Staffords of Grafton including our Humphrey who
met a nasty end after supporting Lovell
or he knew Morton in their Oxford days, knew something 'went on' with
Eleanor from the Talbots and was put up to the revelation by Morton (and MB)
to upset the apple cart during the turmoil of the summer 1483. Could even
have approached Clarence earlier.
Either way I don't have him as a daft aged man. And it will take a heck of a
lot of digging out."
Doug here:
I probably have it wrong but, based on your first sentence, is it the
hypothesis that it was *only* the mistreatment of Eleanor Butler that led
Stillington to make his "revelation" and without that mistreatment he
mightn't (wouldn't?) have spoken up? Or am I reading too much into it?
Fully agree that Stillington wasn't a "daft aged man" and good luck with the
digging!
Doug
//snip//
"I have two scenarios - Stillington was a trusted friend/family member of
the Talbots and was asked by them to do justice by Eleanor (yours I think).
He is certainly close to the Staffords of Grafton including our Humphrey who
met a nasty end after supporting Lovell
or he knew Morton in their Oxford days, knew something 'went on' with
Eleanor from the Talbots and was put up to the revelation by Morton (and MB)
to upset the apple cart during the turmoil of the summer 1483. Could even
have approached Clarence earlier.
Either way I don't have him as a daft aged man. And it will take a heck of a
lot of digging out."
Doug here:
I probably have it wrong but, based on your first sentence, is it the
hypothesis that it was *only* the mistreatment of Eleanor Butler that led
Stillington to make his "revelation" and without that mistreatment he
mightn't (wouldn't?) have spoken up? Or am I reading too much into it?
Fully agree that Stillington wasn't a "daft aged man" and good luck with the
digging!
Doug
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 22:16:45
I can't keep up with this, I am getting so confused. Is there a single major (or not minor anyway) player in this whole thing who "wasn't" related to everyone else?
________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 17:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufort's half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VII's sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 17:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufort's half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VII's sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 23:15:18
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> I can't keep up with this, I am getting so confused. Is there a single
> major (or not minor anyway) player in this whole thing who "wasn't"
> related to everyone else?
I was going to say Brampton - but wasn't his wife part of the whole royal
tangle?
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
> I can't keep up with this, I am getting so confused. Is there a single
> major (or not minor anyway) player in this whole thing who "wasn't"
> related to everyone else?
I was going to say Brampton - but wasn't his wife part of the whole royal
tangle?
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-17 23:27:12
No......At least I don't think so. And with all the same names, not to mention given names, and then titles, I get positively blotto trying to follow.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "liz williams" <ferrymansdaughter@...<mailto:ferrymansdaughter@...>> wrote:
I can't keep up with this, I am getting so confused. Is there a single major (or not minor anyway) player in this whole thing who "wasn't" related to everyone else?
________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...<mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>>
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 17:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufortýs half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VIIýs sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
On Apr 17, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "liz williams" <ferrymansdaughter@...<mailto:ferrymansdaughter@...>> wrote:
I can't keep up with this, I am getting so confused. Is there a single major (or not minor anyway) player in this whole thing who "wasn't" related to everyone else?
________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...<mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>>
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 17:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufortýs half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VIIýs sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-18 09:03:05
Wow - I reckon MB knew everyone; she's everywhere. Must have been very useful.
________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 17:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufort's half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VII's sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 17:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufort's half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VII's sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
Re: Stillington Genealogy
2013-04-18 09:34:30
Haven't found anything much for Morton - a lone wolf. But he does seem to have had a brother. You would find if very difficult without a chart. Does show you how they reckon 83% of the English population are descended from Eddie 3.
________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 22:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I can't keep up with this, I am getting so confused. Is there a single major (or not minor anyway) player in this whole thing who "wasn't" related to everyone else?
________________________________
From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 17:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufort's half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VII's sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 22:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
I can't keep up with this, I am getting so confused. Is there a single major (or not minor anyway) player in this whole thing who "wasn't" related to everyone else?
________________________________
From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013, 17:16
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
...and Richard, 7th Lord Welles was the elder half-brother of Sir John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles, who married Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV. He was Margaret Beaufort's half-brother, so Cecily became Henry VII's sister-in-law and his aunt-by-marriage (or whatever the actual title would have been).Crumbs. How does that Eastenders music go...?
Sandra
From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:56 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington Genealogy
This is getting more like Eastenders.
You may recall that Katherine Stillington, our R's niece, married Sir William Ingleby of Ripley in about 1470. Sir Wil's father, Sir John, deserted his family and became a monk in the 1460s. He subesequently became executor of will of EW (as Prior of Sheen) and ambassador to the Pope for H7. He died in 1499.
Sir Wil's mother was allowed to marry again and she married Richard, 7th Lord Welles (who was incidentally father in law to Will Hasting's brother). Richard's son, Robert rebelled with Warwick in 1469, attacking the house of Sir Thomas Burgh. Richard, having been pardoned some years' before for being a Lancastrian, took sanctuary. Edward IV promised him safe conduct if he came out and then promply executed him. So if Stillington was involved with the Inglebys or indeed had some hold on Edward he had little influence there.
Could this have been grounds for a later grudge or does it prove that it was the Talbots, rather than Edward, who were close to Stillington?
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