The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
2013-04-19 14:19:21
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
2013-04-19 14:51:01
It just occurred to me - DUH - that most of us need an "in depth" education on British Life and History...how were Market Towns created, who got Cathedrals and Monasteries, which lands were owned by the Crown, and therefore not used by common folks for anything, how were bridges created, all the important things around acquiring land, keeping and developing it. Also trade entities and so many things which Yanks do not live with and know about. If anyone has a suggestion for reading, please let me know.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:19 AM
To:
Subject: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:19 AM
To:
Subject: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
2013-04-19 15:09:02
There's a little book by Peter Clark and Paul Slack called English Towns in Transition 1500-1700 which is a good 'dipper' (because the language can be a bit heavy here and there) but it has some interesting statistics and background info. For example in 1520 London had 60,000 inhabitants and Coventry, then the seventh biggest town had 6,600. The next biggest after London was Norwich with 12,000 - so you can see how London dominated and continued to do so. For info York had 8000. By 1695 London had 595,000 folks and Norwich, still the next nearest, had £29,000.
You should get it very cheap - it's 1976.
PS I love urban history, it gives you a real feel for how things evolved.
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013, 14:50
Subject: RE: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
It just occurred to me - DUH - that most of us need an "in depth" education on British Life and History...how were Market Towns created, who got Cathedrals and Monasteries, which lands were owned by the Crown, and therefore not used by common folks for anything, how were bridges created, all the important things around acquiring land, keeping and developing it. Also trade entities and so many things which Yanks do not live with and know about. If anyone has a suggestion for reading, please let me know.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:19 AM
To:
Subject: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
You should get it very cheap - it's 1976.
PS I love urban history, it gives you a real feel for how things evolved.
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013, 14:50
Subject: RE: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
It just occurred to me - DUH - that most of us need an "in depth" education on British Life and History...how were Market Towns created, who got Cathedrals and Monasteries, which lands were owned by the Crown, and therefore not used by common folks for anything, how were bridges created, all the important things around acquiring land, keeping and developing it. Also trade entities and so many things which Yanks do not live with and know about. If anyone has a suggestion for reading, please let me know.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:19 AM
To:
Subject: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
2013-04-19 15:23:08
Oh Hillary, just what I am looking for. Many thinks. I am sorry to be such a dunderhead. But with each layer of history there is another layer, and another, etc.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Hilary Jones
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 9:09 AM
To:
Subject: Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
There's a little book by Peter Clark and Paul Slack called English Towns in Transition 1500-1700 which is a good 'dipper' (because the language can be a bit heavy here and there) but it has some interesting statistics and background info. For example in 1520 London had 60,000 inhabitants and Coventry, then the seventh biggest town had 6,600. The next biggest after London was Norwich with 12,000 - so you can see how London dominated and continued to do so. For info York had 8000. By 1695 London had 595,000 folks and Norwich, still the next nearest, had £29,000.
You should get it very cheap - it's 1976.
PS I love urban history, it gives you a real feel for how things evolved.
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>>
To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>" <<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013, 14:50
Subject: RE: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
It just occurred to me - DUH - that most of us need an "in depth" education on British Life and History...how were Market Towns created, who got Cathedrals and Monasteries, which lands were owned by the Crown, and therefore not used by common folks for anything, how were bridges created, all the important things around acquiring land, keeping and developing it. Also trade entities and so many things which Yanks do not live with and know about. If anyone has a suggestion for reading, please let me know.
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:19 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Hilary Jones
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 9:09 AM
To:
Subject: Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
There's a little book by Peter Clark and Paul Slack called English Towns in Transition 1500-1700 which is a good 'dipper' (because the language can be a bit heavy here and there) but it has some interesting statistics and background info. For example in 1520 London had 60,000 inhabitants and Coventry, then the seventh biggest town had 6,600. The next biggest after London was Norwich with 12,000 - so you can see how London dominated and continued to do so. For info York had 8000. By 1695 London had 595,000 folks and Norwich, still the next nearest, had £29,000.
You should get it very cheap - it's 1976.
PS I love urban history, it gives you a real feel for how things evolved.
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>>
To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>" <<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013, 14:50
Subject: RE: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
It just occurred to me - DUH - that most of us need an "in depth" education on British Life and History...how were Market Towns created, who got Cathedrals and Monasteries, which lands were owned by the Crown, and therefore not used by common folks for anything, how were bridges created, all the important things around acquiring land, keeping and developing it. Also trade entities and so many things which Yanks do not live with and know about. If anyone has a suggestion for reading, please let me know.
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:19 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
2013-04-19 16:03:51
You're not a dunderhead at all.
I hadn't thought of this before, but the statistics do illustrate how he who was popular in the capital would always hold the power; poor Richard had an uphill struggle. The population of the countryside was still recovering from the Black Death.
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013, 15:23
Subject: RE: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Oh Hillary, just what I am looking for. Many thinks. I am sorry to be such a dunderhead. But with each layer of history there is another layer, and another, etc.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Hilary Jones
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 9:09 AM
To:
Subject: Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
There's a little book by Peter Clark and Paul Slack called English Towns in Transition 1500-1700 which is a good 'dipper' (because the language can be a bit heavy here and there) but it has some interesting statistics and background info. For example in 1520 London had 60,000 inhabitants and Coventry, then the seventh biggest town had 6,600. The next biggest after London was Norwich with 12,000 - so you can see how London dominated and continued to do so. For info York had 8000. By 1695 London had 595,000 folks and Norwich, still the next nearest, had £29,000.
You should get it very cheap - it's 1976.
PS I love urban history, it gives you a real feel for how things evolved.
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>>
To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>" <<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013, 14:50
Subject: RE: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
It just occurred to me - DUH - that most of us need an "in depth" education on British Life and History...how were Market Towns created, who got Cathedrals and Monasteries, which lands were owned by the Crown, and therefore not used by common folks for anything, how were bridges created, all the important things around acquiring land, keeping and developing it. Also trade entities and so many things which Yanks do not live with and know about. If anyone has a suggestion for reading, please let me know.
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:19 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
I hadn't thought of this before, but the statistics do illustrate how he who was popular in the capital would always hold the power; poor Richard had an uphill struggle. The population of the countryside was still recovering from the Black Death.
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013, 15:23
Subject: RE: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Oh Hillary, just what I am looking for. Many thinks. I am sorry to be such a dunderhead. But with each layer of history there is another layer, and another, etc.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Hilary Jones
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 9:09 AM
To:
Subject: Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
There's a little book by Peter Clark and Paul Slack called English Towns in Transition 1500-1700 which is a good 'dipper' (because the language can be a bit heavy here and there) but it has some interesting statistics and background info. For example in 1520 London had 60,000 inhabitants and Coventry, then the seventh biggest town had 6,600. The next biggest after London was Norwich with 12,000 - so you can see how London dominated and continued to do so. For info York had 8000. By 1695 London had 595,000 folks and Norwich, still the next nearest, had £29,000.
You should get it very cheap - it's 1976.
PS I love urban history, it gives you a real feel for how things evolved.
________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>>
To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>" <<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013, 14:50
Subject: RE: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
It just occurred to me - DUH - that most of us need an "in depth" education on British Life and History...how were Market Towns created, who got Cathedrals and Monasteries, which lands were owned by the Crown, and therefore not used by common folks for anything, how were bridges created, all the important things around acquiring land, keeping and developing it. Also trade entities and so many things which Yanks do not live with and know about. If anyone has a suggestion for reading, please let me know.
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:19 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
Whilst poddling round Stillington (which may go on for some time!) I bumped into a document about the Catesby family which is on the House of Commons website. It's very interesting, Parliament is in the process of doing biographies on its MPs and has just got to John Catesby, Wm sen's granddad who died in 1405.
So many textbooks have the Catesbys as some sort of nouveau-riche, come out of nowhere upstarts who found favour with Clarence and then Richard. In fact the Catesbys were Coventry kids who had been lawyers for generations, and at the same time they had gradually been acquiring Warks villages, before moving into Northants and Leics. Our John was MP for Coventry 7 times and much favoured by the Black Prince. Coventry, for those of you who don't know, was in the top ten cities in the fifteenth century and the Black Prince owned the manor of Cheylesmore there, through his grandmother Queen Isabella. In fact the city motto is Camera Principis (the Prince's Chamber).
John headed lots of committees of enquiry for the Black Prince, but never ventured into London politics. He, like his descendents, concentrated on acquiring land through money or marriage.
There are two things of interest re the above heading though. One is that John had a long-going dispute with the Bagots about the manor of Ladbroke, which is in spitting distance of Fenny Compton, Eleanor's manor. Hence if there was an interest by the Catesbys it was not, as claimed by Hancock, about establishing markets, but about Ladbroke. Secondly, this conflict brought him into contact with Thomas Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Richard Beauchamp's father. By the beginning of the new century he had become a 'retainer' to the Earls of Warwick.
So it would seem that the Catesbys had a long term contract with the Warwicks. Would this be extended to the Beauchamp daughter marriages? Probably, given his transactions for the Talbots and Butlers. Would it be extended when Richard Nevill took over? Now there's a thought, he could certainly have been known to Anne Beauchamp. We know Clarence used him when he took over the earldom of Warwick.
Did Catesby know about the pre-contract, I don't know, he may have. And would he be willing to blow his career about it? I doubt it, who could have known how Richard would react? I don't have him as a Wolsey or a Cromwell, more someone who was using his expertise to feather his own nest in Northants.
I'm with Stephen; Stillington is in there somewhere. Just where and why we have yet to find out.
Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the Pre-Contract
2013-04-19 16:18:46
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the
Pre-Contract
> There's a little book by Peter Clark and Paul Slack called English Towns
> in Transition 1500-1700 which is a good 'dipper' (because the language can
> be a bit heavy here and there) but it has some interesting statistics and
> background info. For example in 1520 London had 60,000 inhabitants and
> Coventry, then the seventh biggest town had 6,600. The next biggest after
> London was Norwich with 12,000 - so you can see how London dominated and
> continued to do so.
I have an interest in the immediate post-Roman period and afaik London
already had between 30,000 and 60,000 inhabitants even in the 6th C, at a
time when 3,000 was enough to qualify a place as a small city.
To:
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: The Catesbys, the Warwicks and the
Pre-Contract
> There's a little book by Peter Clark and Paul Slack called English Towns
> in Transition 1500-1700 which is a good 'dipper' (because the language can
> be a bit heavy here and there) but it has some interesting statistics and
> background info. For example in 1520 London had 60,000 inhabitants and
> Coventry, then the seventh biggest town had 6,600. The next biggest after
> London was Norwich with 12,000 - so you can see how London dominated and
> continued to do so.
I have an interest in the immediate post-Roman period and afaik London
already had between 30,000 and 60,000 inhabitants even in the 6th C, at a
time when 3,000 was enough to qualify a place as a small city.
Richard III on Amazon
As an Amazon Associate, We earn from qualifying purchases.