Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis

Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett


http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html

Hi Pamela...I read the article earlier on..very interesting..what I know about Scoliosis is only what I have picked up on here..but I do wonder if Richard had to resort to such rather drastic treatments as he does not seem to have been inhibited much by his condition, travelling constantly by horseback and fit enough to take part in battle, unfortunately as it turned out....? Eileen

--- In , Pamela Garrett <ownwrite101@...> wrote:
>
> Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett
>
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html
>
>
>

From: Pamela Garrett
To:
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:50 PM
Subject: Article on Possible Treatment of
Richard's Scoliosis

> Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard
> might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including
> referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we
> know was a nail)

I know it's a very minor point, but actually we don't. I had a look at the
uni's website and they're basically just assuming it's a nail - and they
have no evidence at all that it's Roman, they just said that because the
location is within the bounds of the Roman town, so it *might* be Roman.

Carol made a compelling case for Richard's position indicating that he had
been buried in a shroud, and somebody else pointed out that the Greyfriars
are a poor order and they probably wouldn't have had a proper shroud
available - so I reckon they shrouded him in a blanket or a bit of sacking
and the metal thing is some sort of large pin used to pin the makeshift
shroud closed across his chest, because it wasn't quite big enough. Could
be a nail, could be some sort of staple used to close sacks.

I used to have traction on my neck and although it looked barbaric, it actually released a lot of tension in the neck and surrounding joints. If Richard had traction, and the article is full of conjecture really, it may not have had the consequences that Lund suggests in the article. She is the same person who co-authored the article on Richard and Shakespeare that the U of L published on their website after the confirmation in February, which I thought relied too much on referencing Shakespeare and other writers and not enough evaluation and analysis of the material. To me it read like a catalogue of quotes. Not what I would have written.
Elaine

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Pamela...I read the article earlier on..very interesting..what I know about Scoliosis is only what I have picked up on here..but I do wonder if Richard had to resort to such rather drastic treatments as he does not seem to have been inhibited much by his condition, travelling constantly by horseback and fit enough to take part in battle, unfortunately as it turned out....? Eileen
>
> --- In , Pamela Garrett <ownwrite101@> wrote:
> >
> > Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett
> >
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html
> >
> >
> >
>

I will never be comfortable with any pronouncements as to the state of Richard's back until the "expert" writing the article or paper has the current, qualified medical background to:

1) professionally illustrate exactly what his back looked like during his life, and not as his vertebrae are arbitrarily arranged with massive spaces between them on a black cloth.

2) declare definitively the degree of spinal curvature and exactly how it affected his bodily functions -- including his heart and lung capacity.

3) declare definitively exactly how the curvature of his spine would have affected his physical mobility and abilities.

I do not believe we have been shown the accurate angle of curvature, which means judgments cannot be accurately made. I am not willing to accept the speculations of a professor of English or any other non-medical expert in this area.

~Wednesday

--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> I used to have traction on my neck and although it looked barbaric, it actually released a lot of tension in the neck and surrounding joints. If Richard had traction, and the article is full of conjecture really, it may not have had the consequences that Lund suggests in the article. She is the same person who co-authored the article on Richard and Shakespeare that the U of L published on their website after the confirmation in February, which I thought relied too much on referencing Shakespeare and other writers and not enough evaluation and analysis of the material. To me it read like a catalogue of quotes. Not what I would have written.
> Elaine
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Pamela...I read the article earlier on..very interesting..what I know about Scoliosis is only what I have picked up on here..but I do wonder if Richard had to resort to such rather drastic treatments as he does not seem to have been inhibited much by his condition, travelling constantly by horseback and fit enough to take part in battle, unfortunately as it turned out....? Eileen
> >
> > --- In , Pamela Garrett <ownwrite101@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett
> > >
> > >
> > > http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Absolutely agree Wednesday.

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> I will never be comfortable with any pronouncements as to the state of Richard's back until the "expert" writing the article or paper has the current, qualified medical background to:
>
> 1) professionally illustrate exactly what his back looked like during his life, and not as his vertebrae are arbitrarily arranged with massive spaces between them on a black cloth.
>
> 2) declare definitively the degree of spinal curvature and exactly how it affected his bodily functions -- including his heart and lung capacity.
>
> 3) declare definitively exactly how the curvature of his spine would have affected his physical mobility and abilities.
>
> I do not believe we have been shown the accurate angle of curvature, which means judgments cannot be accurately made. I am not willing to accept the speculations of a professor of English or any other non-medical expert in this area.
>
> ~Wednesday
>
> --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > I used to have traction on my neck and although it looked barbaric, it actually released a lot of tension in the neck and surrounding joints. If Richard had traction, and the article is full of conjecture really, it may not have had the consequences that Lund suggests in the article. She is the same person who co-authored the article on Richard and Shakespeare that the U of L published on their website after the confirmation in February, which I thought relied too much on referencing Shakespeare and other writers and not enough evaluation and analysis of the material. To me it read like a catalogue of quotes. Not what I would have written.
> > Elaine
> >
> > --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Pamela...I read the article earlier on..very interesting..what I know about Scoliosis is only what I have picked up on here..but I do wonder if Richard had to resort to such rather drastic treatments as he does not seem to have been inhibited much by his condition, travelling constantly by horseback and fit enough to take part in battle, unfortunately as it turned out....? Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , Pamela Garrett <ownwrite101@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I agree 100%!

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 20, 2013, at 12:43 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...<mailto:wednesday.mac@...>> wrote:



I will never be comfortable with any pronouncements as to the state of Richard's back until the "expert" writing the article or paper has the current, qualified medical background to:

1) professionally illustrate exactly what his back looked like during his life, and not as his vertebrae are arbitrarily arranged with massive spaces between them on a black cloth.

2) declare definitively the degree of spinal curvature and exactly how it affected his bodily functions -- including his heart and lung capacity.

3) declare definitively exactly how the curvature of his spine would have affected his physical mobility and abilities.

I do not believe we have been shown the accurate angle of curvature, which means judgments cannot be accurately made. I am not willing to accept the speculations of a professor of English or any other non-medical expert in this area.

~Wednesday

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> I used to have traction on my neck and although it looked barbaric, it actually released a lot of tension in the neck and surrounding joints. If Richard had traction, and the article is full of conjecture really, it may not have had the consequences that Lund suggests in the article. She is the same person who co-authored the article on Richard and Shakespeare that the U of L published on their website after the confirmation in February, which I thought relied too much on referencing Shakespeare and other writers and not enough evaluation and analysis of the material. To me it read like a catalogue of quotes. Not what I would have written.
> Elaine
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Pamela...I read the article earlier on..very interesting..what I know about Scoliosis is only what I have picked up on here..but I do wonder if Richard had to resort to such rather drastic treatments as he does not seem to have been inhibited much by his condition, travelling constantly by horseback and fit enough to take part in battle, unfortunately as it turned out....? Eileen
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Garrett <ownwrite101@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett
> > >
> > >
> > > http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Yep, me too.
 
 


________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 20 April 2013, 19:10
Subject: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis

 
Absolutely agree Wednesday.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> I will never be comfortable with any pronouncements as to the state of Richard's back until the "expert" writing the article or paper has the current, qualified medical background to:
>
> 1) professionally illustrate exactly what his back looked like during his life, and not as his vertebrae are arbitrarily arranged with massive spaces between them on a black cloth.
>
> 2) declare definitively the degree of spinal curvature and exactly how it affected his bodily functions -- including his heart and lung capacity.
>
> 3) declare definitively exactly how the curvature of his spine would have affected his physical mobility and abilities.
>
> I do not believe we have been shown the accurate angle of curvature, which means judgments cannot be accurately made. I am not willing to accept the speculations of a professor of English or any other non-medical expert in this area.
>
> ~Wednesday
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > I used to have traction on my neck and although it looked barbaric, it actually released a lot of tension in the neck and surrounding joints. If Richard had traction, and the article is full of conjecture really, it may not have had the consequences that Lund suggests in the article. She is the same person who co-authored the article on Richard and Shakespeare that the U of L published on their website after the confirmation in February, which I thought relied too much on referencing Shakespeare and other writers and not enough evaluation and analysis of the material. To me it read like a catalogue of quotes. Not what I would have written.
> > Elaine
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Pamela...I read the article earlier on..very interesting..what I know about Scoliosis is only what I have picked up on here..but I do wonder if Richard had to resort to such rather drastic treatments as he does not seem to have been inhibited much by his condition, travelling constantly by horseback and fit enough to take part in battle, unfortunately as it turned out....? Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Garrett <ownwrite101@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Me three.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 20, 2013, at 4:18 PM, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:

> Yep, me too.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 20 April 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis
>
>
> Absolutely agree Wednesday.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
> >
> > I will never be comfortable with any pronouncements as to the state of Richard's back until the "expert" writing the article or paper has the current, qualified medical background to:
> >
> > 1) professionally illustrate exactly what his back looked like during his life, and not as his vertebrae are arbitrarily arranged with massive spaces between them on a black cloth.
> >
> > 2) declare definitively the degree of spinal curvature and exactly how it affected his bodily functions -- including his heart and lung capacity.
> >
> > 3) declare definitively exactly how the curvature of his spine would have affected his physical mobility and abilities.
> >
> > I do not believe we have been shown the accurate angle of curvature, which means judgments cannot be accurately made. I am not willing to accept the speculations of a professor of English or any other non-medical expert in this area.
> >
> > ~Wednesday
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I used to have traction on my neck and although it looked barbaric, it actually released a lot of tension in the neck and surrounding joints. If Richard had traction, and the article is full of conjecture really, it may not have had the consequences that Lund suggests in the article. She is the same person who co-authored the article on Richard and Shakespeare that the U of L published on their website after the confirmation in February, which I thought relied too much on referencing Shakespeare and other writers and not enough evaluation and analysis of the material. To me it read like a catalogue of quotes. Not what I would have written.
> > > Elaine
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Pamela...I read the article earlier on..very interesting..what I know about Scoliosis is only what I have picked up on here..but I do wonder if Richard had to resort to such rather drastic treatments as he does not seem to have been inhibited much by his condition, travelling constantly by horseback and fit enough to take part in battle, unfortunately as it turned out....? Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Garrett <ownwrite101@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>

From: wednesday_mc
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of
Richard's Scoliosis


> 2) declare definitively the degree of spinal curvature

We can see from his skeleton that it was very marked - settling in the grave
may have made it slightly worse than it was but it's not going to make it
*that* much different.

> 3) declare definitively exactly how the curvature of his spine would have
> affected his physical mobility and abilities.

According to somebody on a scoliosis forum who has a very similar curvature,
at the age Richard was when he died it would hardly have affected him at
all, so long as he had a high pain threshhold. If he had lived, he would
probably have become quite badly crippled 15 or 20 years down the line but
his early death meant he never had to endure that.

Dumb question time. This has probably been discussed at length at other times, but I do not really know when Richard's back problem was first remarked upon. Although I realise that those close to him and those who waited upon him would be aware all along, and probably would not mention it, how widely would it have been realised otherwise? If he was active and hardly affected by it at the time he died, might it not have been until he was stripped naked at Bosworth and his body exposed that his condition was finally clear to all and sundry? Was that the moment the hunchback' vilification began? (I'm sorry if I'm harping on about something that has been discussed enough already.)

And in a way I'm relieved he died when he did, for it is insupportable to think of the increasing pain and distress that awaited. He'd had enough of all that already. So much tragedy, and then an agonizing, lingering demise as well. He certainly did not deserve any of it. Better to go in a blaze of glory. Which he did. No one more so.

Sandra

From: Claire M Jordan
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:58 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis

According to somebody on a scoliosis forum who has a very similar curvature,
at the age Richard was when he died it would hardly have affected him at
all, so long as he had a high pain threshhold. If he had lived, he would
probably have become quite badly crippled 15 or 20 years down the line but
his early death meant he never had to endure that.

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:

> We can see from his skeleton that it was very marked - settling in the grave may have made it slightly worse than it was but it's not going to make it *that* much different.

The photo of the skeleton in the grave is not an accurate presentation. It appears his body was angled in the grave (i.e., he was positioned somewhat sitting up), and his torso was bent/compressed. This affected how the vertebrae fell into the empty space created by decomposing soft tissue.

> According to somebody on a scoliosis forum who has a very similar curvature, at the age Richard was when he died it would hardly have affected him at all, so long as he had a high pain threshhold. If he had lived, he would probably have become quite badly crippled 15 or 20 years down the line but his early death meant he never had to endure that.

Somebody who has scoliosis is not an expert on the scoliosis Richard had. From what the university has released, we still do not know the degree of curvature Richard had. We still need a medical expert on scoliosis to analyze his spine, present a three-dimensional representation, and give a definitive definition of how it affected his life/mobility.

Until this happens, everything is speculation, including the degree of pain he was in and when. The degree of curvature presented by the skeleton in the grave *would* have given him severely compromised lung and heart function. This does not align with the historical record of Richard's stamina and capabilities during life.

Something is askew, and it's not just his spine. Until an expert publishes his or her findings, we are all like blind mice inspecting his bones, and every mouse is coming up with different conclusions based on incomplete and inaccurate data.

~Weds

You did miss the discussion Sandra. We can find no evidence that anyone ever remarked upon it in his lifetime and that included 'foreigners' who had met him such as Louis XI (who had a daughter with severe scoliosis). Even Rous at his most hostile only says he had one shoulder higher than the other (which was indeed true).
 
That's why I, and some others here, remain unconvinced about the degree of severity and would like more work done on it by properly qualified medical folks, rather than the Leicester team. Let's hope someone is doing it. For one thing, no-one has really said whether being crammed into a too-short grave might have had an impact over time. 


________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 21 April 2013, 11:33
Subject: Re: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis


 

Dumb question time. This has probably been discussed at length at other times, but I do not really know when Richard's back problem was first remarked upon. Although I realise that those close to him and those who waited upon him would be aware all along, and probably would not mention it, how widely would it have been realised otherwise? If he was active and hardly affected by it at the time he died, might it not have been until he was stripped naked at Bosworth and his body exposed that his condition was finally clear to all and sundry? Was that the moment the hunchback' vilification began? (I'm sorry if I'm harping on about something that has been discussed enough already.)

And in a way I'm relieved he died when he did, for it is insupportable to think of the increasing pain and distress that awaited. He'd had enough of all that already. So much tragedy, and then an agonizing, lingering demise as well. He certainly did not deserve any of it. Better to go in a blaze of glory. Which he did. No one more so.

Sandra

From: Claire M Jordan
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:58 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis

According to somebody on a scoliosis forum who has a very similar curvature,
at the age Richard was when he died it would hardly have affected him at
all, so long as he had a high pain threshhold. If he had lived, he would
probably have become quite badly crippled 15 or 20 years down the line but
his early death meant he never had to endure that.

It seems you yourself are jumping to conclusions when you say that "The
degree of curvature presented by the skeleton in the grave *would* have
given him severely compromised lung and heart function."

I don't personally understand the fuss. My semi-informed opinion (a
physician, but with no expertise in scoliosis) I have no trouble accepting
that Richard had scoliosis, that the curvature was much as we see in both
the in situ photo & in the forensic display of his bones (although the
space between bones has been exaggerated); that it obviously did not have
much of an impact (yet) on him in life, based on historical descriptions of
his appearance and his activities. There are already some signs of changes
in individual vertebrae, so I also have no trouble accepting the opinions
expressed by others more knowledgeable about scoliosis that if he had lived
longer, he might well have had considerable disability from arthritis &
impingement on internal organs.

A J


On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 11:15 AM, wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "Claire M Jordan"
> <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> > We can see from his skeleton that it was very marked - settling in the
> grave may have made it slightly worse than it was but it's not going to
> make it *that* much different.
>
> The photo of the skeleton in the grave is not an accurate presentation. It
> appears his body was angled in the grave (i.e., he was positioned somewhat
> sitting up), and his torso was bent/compressed. This affected how the
> vertebrae fell into the empty space created by decomposing soft tissue.
>
> > According to somebody on a scoliosis forum who has a very similar
> curvature, at the age Richard was when he died it would hardly have
> affected him at all, so long as he had a high pain threshhold. If he had
> lived, he would probably have become quite badly crippled 15 or 20 years
> down the line but his early death meant he never had to endure that.
>
> Somebody who has scoliosis is not an expert on the scoliosis Richard had.
> From what the university has released, we still do not know the degree of
> curvature Richard had. We still need a medical expert on scoliosis to
> analyze his spine, present a three-dimensional representation, and give a
> definitive definition of how it affected his life/mobility.
>
> Until this happens, everything is speculation, including the degree of
> pain he was in and when. The degree of curvature presented by the skeleton
> in the grave *would* have given him severely compromised lung and heart
> function. This does not align with the historical record of Richard's
> stamina and capabilities during life.
>
> Something is askew, and it's not just his spine. Until an expert publishes
> his or her findings, we are all like blind mice inspecting his bones, and
> every mouse is coming up with different conclusions based on incomplete and
> inaccurate data.
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>

Thank you Hilary. I had a niggling feeling there had been something about it, fairly recently, but simply could not remember who, what or where. Another senior moment. But I still find it hard to believe there is no intention to reconstruct' Richard as a whole. What point is there in not doing it? It's like having a full-length portrait with just a disembodied head. Surely the whole man is a logical step. Is it a case of money?
Sandra

From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 5:20 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis

You did miss the discussion Sandra. We can find no evidence that anyone ever remarked upon it in his lifetime and that included 'foreigners' who had met him such as Louis XI (who had a daughter with severe scoliosis). Even Rous at his most hostile only says he had one shoulder higher than the other (which was indeed true).

That's why I, and some others here, remain unconvinced about the degree of severity and would like more work done on it by properly qualified medical folks, rather than the Leicester team. Let's hope someone is doing it. For one thing, no-one has really said whether being crammed into a too-short grave might have had an impact over time.

My mother, at 86, has mild scoliosis. She has COPD, but that could be from a variety of other things from which she suffers.
I do think a team of forensic orthopedic physicians and scientists should make a thorough and painstaking examination of the spinal remains. As we have all stated before, a 3D model would be marvelous. Only then, and only with a big does of surmise, could Richard's degree of scoliosis be ascertained. And even then, it would seem he was able to do many things with some degree of ease and proficiency. If he had breathing problems, I doubt he could have fought so hard, for so long.

On Apr 21, 2013, at 11:34 AM, "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...> wrote:

> It seems you yourself are jumping to conclusions when you say that "The
> degree of curvature presented by the skeleton in the grave *would* have
> given him severely compromised lung and heart function."
>
> I don't personally understand the fuss. My semi-informed opinion (a
> physician, but with no expertise in scoliosis) I have no trouble accepting
> that Richard had scoliosis, that the curvature was much as we see in both
> the in situ photo & in the forensic display of his bones (although the
> space between bones has been exaggerated); that it obviously did not have
> much of an impact (yet) on him in life, based on historical descriptions of
> his appearance and his activities. There are already some signs of changes
> in individual vertebrae, so I also have no trouble accepting the opinions
> expressed by others more knowledgeable about scoliosis that if he had lived
> longer, he might well have had considerable disability from arthritis &
> impingement on internal organs.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 11:15 AM, wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In , "Claire M Jordan"
>> <whitehound@...> wrote:
>>
>>> We can see from his skeleton that it was very marked - settling in the
>> grave may have made it slightly worse than it was but it's not going to
>> make it *that* much different.
>>
>> The photo of the skeleton in the grave is not an accurate presentation. It
>> appears his body was angled in the grave (i.e., he was positioned somewhat
>> sitting up), and his torso was bent/compressed. This affected how the
>> vertebrae fell into the empty space created by decomposing soft tissue.
>>
>>> According to somebody on a scoliosis forum who has a very similar
>> curvature, at the age Richard was when he died it would hardly have
>> affected him at all, so long as he had a high pain threshhold. If he had
>> lived, he would probably have become quite badly crippled 15 or 20 years
>> down the line but his early death meant he never had to endure that.
>>
>> Somebody who has scoliosis is not an expert on the scoliosis Richard had.
>> From what the university has released, we still do not know the degree of
>> curvature Richard had. We still need a medical expert on scoliosis to
>> analyze his spine, present a three-dimensional representation, and give a
>> definitive definition of how it affected his life/mobility.
>>
>> Until this happens, everything is speculation, including the degree of
>> pain he was in and when. The degree of curvature presented by the skeleton
>> in the grave *would* have given him severely compromised lung and heart
>> function. This does not align with the historical record of Richard's
>> stamina and capabilities during life.
>>
>> Something is askew, and it's not just his spine. Until an expert publishes
>> his or her findings, we are all like blind mice inspecting his bones, and
>> every mouse is coming up with different conclusions based on incomplete and
>> inaccurate data.
>>
>> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I don't know. I couldn't get to the Leicester meeting where things seemed to be quite reasonable but it seems it will be forever confused with hunchback because of Jo Appleby's throw away remark in the first programme. AJ has just made a comment; he's the first physician on here to my knowledge and can no doubt add great value to the discussion. I think we all thought when they talked about the three-dimensional image that they would do that. But we never got to see it properly. 



________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 21 April 2013, 18:15
Subject: Re: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis


 

Thank you Hilary. I had a niggling feeling there had been something about it, fairly recently, but simply could not remember who, what or where. Another senior moment. But I still find it hard to believe there is no intention to reconstruct' Richard as a whole. What point is there in not doing it? It's like having a full-length portrait with just a disembodied head. Surely the whole man is a logical step. Is it a case of money?
Sandra

From: Hilary Jones
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 5:20 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis

You did miss the discussion Sandra. We can find no evidence that anyone ever remarked upon it in his lifetime and that included 'foreigners' who had met him such as Louis XI (who had a daughter with severe scoliosis). Even Rous at his most hostile only says he had one shoulder higher than the other (which was indeed true).

That's why I, and some others here, remain unconvinced about the degree of severity and would like more work done on it by properly qualified medical folks, rather than the Leicester team. Let's hope someone is doing it. For one thing, no-one has really said whether being crammed into a too-short grave might have had an impact over time.

From: wednesday_mc
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of
Richard's Scoliosis


> The photo of the skeleton in the grave is not an accurate presentation. It
> appears his body was angled in the grave (i.e., he was positioned somewhat
> sitting up), and his torso was bent/compressed. This affected how the
> vertebrae fell into the empty space created by decomposing soft tissue.

Probably a little bit, *if* the soil wasn't very tightly packed around him,
but not a lot. As somebody - AJ? - pointed out, some of his vertebrae are
wedge-shaped, making it clear there was a marked curvature in life.

Think about a long column of square wooden blocks, strung on a thread which
is attached to a solid object (doubling for his pelvis) at one end. If the
string is held loosely so that the blocks are spilling out to one side, and
you then compress them from the top, they'll spill out to the side a bit
more. If they're lined up in a fairly straight line and you compress them
from the top they won't move - they'll just lock into a rigid column. *If*
his bones settled down into more of a curve as his body slid down in the
grave, they would have to have been in quite a marked curve to begin with.

> Somebody who has scoliosis is not an expert on the scoliosis Richard had.

This is somebody who says that her X-rays show a curve identical with what
Richard seems to have in the grave (which you are arguing is a more severe
curve than he would have had in life), and it caused her no significant
mobility problems until she was about fifty
http://ouchtoo.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=3oabk9ouk3i7rnonjqpfsd5d06&topic=5202.msg61749#msg61749

Somebody with severe scoliosis of a similar type to Richard's is the
best-placed person to know what scoliosis of Richard's type feels like, and
when she was his age she could do pretty-much anything a straight-backed
person could do, although sometimes more painfully.

You're arguing that he couldn't have had severe scoliosis because if he had
had severe scoliosis it would have disabled him, but people who actually
*have* severe scoliosis say it causes no significant disability when you're
as young as Richard was - therefore the fact that he wasn't disabled at 32
is no evidence that he didn't have severe scoliosis. And remember that if
you have a bad back and you wear well-fitting armour, the armour acts as a
back-brace.

> From what the university has released, we still do not know the degree of
> curvature Richard had. We still need a medical expert on scoliosis to
> analyze his spine, present a three-dimensional representation, and give a
> definitive definition of how it affected his life/mobility.

Honestly, it doesn't necessarily cause much trouble until later life -
*Usain Bolt* has scoliosis.

> Until this happens, everything is speculation, including the degree of
> pain he was in and when. The degree of curvature presented by the skeleton
> in the grave *would* have given him severely compromised lung and heart
> function.

It would have compressed his right lung, yes. But there's a lot of
redundancy in the human body. Remember we evolved to run down antelope
barefoot and sprint away from hungry lions - anything less strenuous than
that and you can get along perfectly well with a few missing bits, including
managing on only one lung (and in Richard's case we're talking one and a
half to one and two-thirds lungs). If he had been a town crier or an opera
singer a slight reduction in lung capacity might have been a problem, but
not for a soldier on horseback.

One of my friends punctured a lung a couple of weeks ago and it took him
four days to even notice! It was only because his boyfriend nagged him to
go to hospital that he ever found out that what he'd thought was a bit of
bruising was four broken ribs, one of which had pierced his lung.

> This does not align with the historical record of Richard's stamina and
> capabilities during life.

This is something I asked before and there were no takers, but - quite apart
from the fact that scoliosis doesn't have much effect on your stamina and
capabilities when you're as young as Richard was, do we actually have any
evidence of Richard's stamina and physical capabilities?

We know that he was an able commander, and as a Mediaeval commander he must
have joined in the fighting, and have done it well enough not to lose any
major bits of anatomy (although both his portrait and his skeleton suggest
he did lose part of his right little finger). We know that he was a
spectacularly *brave* fighter - so much so that even his enemies agree on
it. But do we have any evidence as to how strong or able a fighter he was,
or how much stamina he had?

The only one I can think of is a negative one - that he was deficient in
strength ("viribus debilis") - but that was Rous who isn't a reliable
source. Do we have any accounts of his actual prowess as a fighter, as
opposed to his raw courage or his intelligent generalship? Even the "to the
honour of Hector" quote seems to be refering to his tactical skills.

We know he spent a lot of time in the saddle, which is fairly strenuous -
but the straight-legged Mediaeval seat was different from the modern one and
probably didn't require as much muscular grip.

From: SandraMachin
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Article on Possible Treatment
of Richard's Scoliosis


> Dumb question time. This has probably been discussed at length at other
> times, but I do not really know when Richard's back problem was first
> remarked upon. Although I realise that those close to him and those who
> waited upon him would be aware all along, and probably would not mention
> it, how widely would it have been realised otherwise?

It would only have been visible when he was bare-chested. His
body-servants, doctors, wife and lovers and any boyhood companions at
Middleham who might have seen him skinny-dipping older than about thirteen
must have known about it but they evidently didn't talk about it. Outside
that inner circle nobody at all before Bosworth seems to have known about
it - they must have known he had one shoulder higher than the other and I
suppose anybody who had knowledge of scoliosis might have speculated about
the cause, but we have no record of it being remarked on.

Even after his death, when writers were queuing up to blacken his name and
Rous was presenting him as a freakish monster, all anybody said was that he
had one shoulder higher than the other (and couldn't agree on which was
higher). This tends to bear out Carol's idea that his body was carried face
up, not face down - even in death his spinal problem seems not to have been
remarked on although the repeated comments about his uneven shoulders would
suggest that he had scoliosis, even if we hadn't seen his skeleton.

According to this article
http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1208757.ece it was More, writing
decades after Richard's death, who first called him Crookback, which is not
unreasonable although "crooked-spine" would be more accurate, since he would
have stood perfectly upright. Perhaps More had spoken to one of the
soldiers who peeled Richard out of his armour. It was Shakespeare who first
called him a hunchback - possibly due to an honest misunderstanding of
"crookback" - and sadly that stuck.

> And in a way I'm relieved he died when he did, for it is insupportable to
> think of the increasing pain and distress that awaited. He'd had enough of
> all that already.

Yes. It would have been nice if he'd got to have the extra 10 or 15 years
before arthritis and muscle-strain would have caught up with him, though -
he could have done a lot in 10 or 15 years.

> Better to go in a blaze of glory. Which he did. No one more so.

So much so that even his bitterest enemies had to acknowledge his courage,
yes - if he had to die young I think that's the way which would most have
pleased him (at least since "having a heart-attack whilst having athletic
sex with Ann" had ceased to be an option).

Claire M Jordan wrote:

//snip//
"Somebody with severe scoliosis of a similar type to Richard's is the
best-placed person to know what scoliosis of Richard's type feels like, and
when she was his age she could do pretty-much anything a straight-backed
person could do, although sometimes more painfully."

Doug here:
Doesn't "severe", when used in a medical sense, often have a different
connotation that in non-medical conversations?
Could "severe" in this case mean more along the lines of "past the point of
correction", which I understand *might* be do-able if caught early enough,
rather than "crippling"?
Doug

I can't find AJ's comments of yesterday but he certainly implied that the scoliosis would get worse as Richard aged.

You remember we had a discussion on here a few weeks' ago as to whether Richard was ill at Bosworth (Jones and JAH hint at it if I remember rightly)?

Am I right in thinking at the time of Bosworth, Richard wouldn't have worn armour for about two years? Would ageing and the dreadful stress of those two years have made his scoliosis worse so that when he did indeed come to don armour it did affect him physically much worse than any time before.

Hence the need to get it all over fast and that badly judged if courageous charge?



--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Claire M Jordan wrote:
>
> //snip//
> "Somebody with severe scoliosis of a similar type to Richard's is the
> best-placed person to know what scoliosis of Richard's type feels like, and
> when she was his age she could do pretty-much anything a straight-backed
> person could do, although sometimes more painfully."
>
> Doug here:
> Doesn't "severe", when used in a medical sense, often have a different
> connotation that in non-medical conversations?
> Could "severe" in this case mean more along the lines of "past the point of
> correction", which I understand *might* be do-able if caught early enough,
> rather than "crippling"?
> Doug
>

From: hjnatdat
To:
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of
Richard's Scoliosis


> Am I right in thinking at the time of Bosworth, Richard wouldn't have worn
> armour for about two years? Would ageing and the dreadful stress of those
> two years have made his scoliosis worse so that when he did indeed come to
> don armour it did affect him physically much worse than any time before.

The armour would help, if it was well-fitted (and it would be). People who
fight in armour nowadays and who have back pain report that the armour
really helps them - it acts like a corset. Being in armour would probably
have been the most comfortable he ever was.

But remember this was (allowing for calendar drift) early September - one of
the few times of year which is reliably hot - and the battle went on for
hours, didn't it? If it was a very sunny day, by the time they got to the
charge everybody who was in full plate was probably on the verge of
hyperthermia and feeling a bit addled.

On 22/04/2013 19:53, hjnatdat wrote:
> Am I right in thinking at the time of Bosworth, Richard wouldn't have worn armour for about two years?
I remember from somewhere that Richard is said to have worn the same
armour he wore at Tewkesbury, though it sounds ridiculous to me. After
all he could afford a new set or two after 1471 couldn't he? However,
the remark may be saying he was the same size and shape as he had been
at aged 19?
Paul


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

You have this vision of him telling them to get it out of the loft! But obviously no expanding waistline there.



________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2013, 10:33
Subject: Re: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis


 

On 22/04/2013 19:53, hjnatdat wrote:
> Am I right in thinking at the time of Bosworth, Richard wouldn't have worn armour for about two years?
I remember from somewhere that Richard is said to have worn the same
armour he wore at Tewkesbury, though it sounds ridiculous to me. After
all he could afford a new set or two after 1471 couldn't he? However,
the remark may be saying he was the same size and shape as he had been
at aged 19?
Paul

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

"hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
>
> I can't find AJ's comments of yesterday but he certainly implied that the scoliosis would get worse as Richard aged. [snip]

Carol responds:

I'm fairly certain that AJ is a she, and since she hasn't spoken up, I hope that all concerned will forgive me for stepping forward here.

If you type "sweating sickness" in the search box for this site, you should find the earlier discussion. (At that time, of course, we didn't know about the scoliosis.)

Carol

Yes thanks. I am of the feminine persuasion. Just didn't think I had
anything else to say on the subject.

Except perhaps to recommend Toby Capwell's fascinating talk from the
conference in Leicester, about armor including his speculations about what
adjustments might have had to have been made for Richard. If the link below
doesn't work, others have also provided a link to the talks, & a search on
YouTube for Toby Capwell will also bring up this talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sn9F0VHTjY

A J


On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 12:12 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I can't find AJ's comments of yesterday but he certainly implied that
> the scoliosis would get worse as Richard aged. [snip]
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I'm fairly certain that AJ is a she, and since she hasn't spoken up, I
> hope that all concerned will forgive me for stepping forward here.
>
> If you type "sweating sickness" in the search box for this site, you
> should find the earlier discussion. (At that time, of course, we didn't
> know about the scoliosis.)
>
> Carol
>
>
>

Carol, 
 
Glad you are better! Of course I know about the sweating sickness, that's why I brought this up as an alternative answer to that theory.
AJ many apologies - in the UK it's blokes who tend to use initials - that is apart from J K Rowling and Antonia Byatt


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 18:12
Subject: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of Richard's Scoliosis

 


"hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
>
> I can't find AJ's comments of yesterday but he certainly implied that the scoliosis would get worse as Richard aged. [snip]

Carol responds:

I'm fairly certain that AJ is a she, and since she hasn't spoken up, I hope that all concerned will forgive me for stepping forward here.

If you type "sweating sickness" in the search box for this site, you should find the earlier discussion. (At that time, of course, we didn't know about the scoliosis.)

Carol

Not to worry - no offense taken.

A J


On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Carol,
>
> Glad you are better! Of course I know about the sweating sickness, that's
> why I brought this up as an alternative answer to that theory.
> AJ many apologies - in the UK it's blokes who tend to use initials - that
> is apart from J K Rowling and Antonia Byatt
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 18:12
>
> Subject: Re: Article on Possible Treatment of
> Richard's Scoliosis
>
>
>
>
> "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I can't find AJ's comments of yesterday but he certainly implied that
> the scoliosis would get worse as Richard aged. [snip]
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I'm fairly certain that AJ is a she, and since she hasn't spoken up, I
> hope that all concerned will forgive me for stepping forward here.
>
> If you type "sweating sickness" in the search box for this site, you
> should find the earlier discussion. (At that time, of course, we didn't
> know about the scoliosis.)
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>

In the May edition of Current Archaeology there is a letter from a person with severe scoliosis that he says is virtually identical to that of Richard. The writer refers to orthopaedic surgeons he has consulted who have suggested that weakness in the back is always there, but that the curvature only became prominent when one becomes active. In the writer's case, this was at the age of 15 when he started work as an apprentice. In Richard's case, the parallel would be when he joined Warwick's household and began the rigorous process of training to be a soldier and knight. He also refers to his reduction in height from 5' 8" to 5' 4" and the unevenness of his shoulders and says that there are good and bad days and that it is a question of learning to live with and know your limits but that it has not prevented him from carrying out manual work. Richard's own history bears that out. An interesting footnote is his comment on a possible cause for the condition of scoliosis. In his case, neurofibromatosis (NF), a side effect of which is curvature of the spine. Neurofibromatosis is a genetic disorder and there are two types; type 1 characterised by lumps and bumps on the skin and possible learning difficulties is a genetic disorder in chromosone 17 and type 2 a genetic disorder in chromosone 22 of the nervous system causing tumours in the brain and spine; there is a 50% chance of passing on the condition to any children. It does not usually appear until the teenage years. If Richard's remains can be tested for genetic disorders it would be interesting to see whether there is any evidence for this disorder. And taking it a step further along hereditary lines as possibilities for both Edward of Middleham and young Warwick.
Elaine

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Pamela...I read the article earlier on..very interesting..what I know about Scoliosis is only what I have picked up on here..but I do wonder if Richard had to resort to such rather drastic treatments as he does not seem to have been inhibited much by his condition, travelling constantly by horseback and fit enough to take part in battle, unfortunately as it turned out....? Eileen
>
> --- In , Pamela Garrett <ownwrite101@> wrote:
> >
> > Here is a link to an article regarding the possible treatment Richard might have received for his scoliosis. It contains inaccuracies (including referring to the "barbed arrowhead" lodged between his vertebrae that we know was a nail) and says historical records indicate he was a "control freak with a friendly face." If you can get past the just wrong stuff and the fact that the person making these assertions is a professor of English, some of this might be of interest It's hard to think of Richard having to endure such treatment. Pamela Garrett
> >
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/did-king-richard-iii-undergo-painful-scoliosis-treatment-134214223.html
> >
> >
> >
>