Hi and query about Anne of York and Thomas Howard

Hi all

I've just joined the group. I've been into Richard since The Trial in 1984, was once in the society, drifted away but have had my interest re-ignited by the discovery of Richard.

I've read lots of books but there are still things I don't know. Is it permissible to pick the group brain about things?

At the moment I'm trying to pull together some information on Edward IV's younger daughters.

I know Anne eventually married Thomas Howard in 1495. But it says in Agnes Strickland's Lives of the Queens of England that Anne had been betrothed to him originally by Richard III. She quotes Buck and Hutton as her sources.

I've skimmed my copy of Hutton and can't find any reference to this. I don't have Buck. Does anyone know if Buck does say this?

On the one hand there is no evidence of Henry VII disolving a contract like he did Cecily and Ralph Scrope. On the other I could imagine Richard wanting to marry Anne when she was older to a safe family that supported him and marriages were arranged when people were children. Buck was a follower of the later Howards and dedicated his history to Thomas Earl of Arundel so I guess he could have had access to some oral history.

Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks.

"j_summerill" <j_summerill@...> wrote:

>
> [snip] I've read lots of books but there are still things I don't know. Is it permissible to pick the group brain about things?
>
> At the moment I'm trying to pull together some information on Edward IV's younger daughters.
>
> I know Anne eventually married Thomas Howard in 1495. But it says in Agnes Strickland's Lives of the Queens of England that Anne had been betrothed to him originally by Richard III. She quotes Buck and Hutton as her sources.
>
> I've skimmed my copy of Hutton and can't find any reference to this. I don't have Buck. Does anyone know if Buck does say this?
[snip]

Carol responds:

Unfortunately, Buck is not available online except in the corrupt edition edited by his nephew. However, I did find another reference to the statement by Buck that young Howard and Edward's daughter Anne were originally betrothed by Richard III in a biography of Thomas Howard, third Duke of Norfolk:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1Zf-2NMMIvkC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=%22George+Buck%22+%22Richard+III%22+%22Thomas+Howard%22&source=bl&ots=kKEvD7siZO&sig=78TbJRTrTDyW-aCDXqv0VhRWR7U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cFF0UYeQOcLIiwLRk4GADQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22George%20Buck%22%20%22Richard%20III%22%20%22Thomas%20Howard%22&f=false

If that monstrous URL doesn't link, try this:

http://tinyurl.com/cnpy855

As you say, there was a connection between the Bucks and the Howards, so it's quite likely that Buck learned it through family tradition (either his family's or the Howards'). You already know about the marriage between Ralph Scrope and Cecily, so I assume that you also know about Richard's promise to find suitable husbands for the other daughters who would "lovingly love them" or face his displeasure. You may also know that near the time of his wife's death, he was negotiating a marriage for Elizabeth of York with Manuel of Portugal (and for himself with Joanna of Portugal). Thomas Howard would certainly be a suitable husband for Anne, just two years older and the son of an earl, and, more important, both his father and grandfather were loyal to Richard. But Richard made a point of saying that he would arrange marriages for the younger girls when they reached a suitable age, so it seems unlikely (though not impossible) that he would arrange such a marriage in 1484 when Anne was only nine and Thomas eleven. On the other hand, if he *had* made such an arrangement and Henry honored it, that might be a means of insuring the loyalty of Thomas's father (along with Henry's keeping Thomas and his brother at his court as pages, virtual hostages to insure their father's loyalty in action if not in heart).

I would recommend finding Buck in a library. Be sure it's the 1982 edition edited by Anne Sutton and not the bowdlerized edition for which Buck's nephew, George Buck, Esq., took credit.

I also noticed your questions about Anne's sister Mary, which I can't answer. Possibly Charles Ross deals with them in his biography of Edward IV. I would take anything Amy License says with a very large grain of salt.

Carol

Carol

Thank you very much for the links and for the info. Regards. J

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
> "j_summerill" <j_summerill@> wrote:
>
> >
> > [snip] I've read lots of books but there are still things I don't know. Is it permissible to pick the group brain about things?
> >
> > At the moment I'm trying to pull together some information on Edward IV's younger daughters.
> >
> > I know Anne eventually married Thomas Howard in 1495. But it says in Agnes Strickland's Lives of the Queens of England that Anne had been betrothed to him originally by Richard III. She quotes Buck and Hutton as her sources.
> >
> > I've skimmed my copy of Hutton and can't find any reference to this. I don't have Buck. Does anyone know if Buck does say this?
> [snip]
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Unfortunately, Buck is not available online except in the corrupt edition edited by his nephew. However, I did find another reference to the statement by Buck that young Howard and Edward's daughter Anne were originally betrothed by Richard III in a biography of Thomas Howard, third Duke of Norfolk:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=1Zf-2NMMIvkC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=%22George+Buck%22+%22Richard+III%22+%22Thomas+Howard%22&source=bl&ots=kKEvD7siZO&sig=78TbJRTrTDyW-aCDXqv0VhRWR7U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cFF0UYeQOcLIiwLRk4GADQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22George%20Buck%22%20%22Richard%20III%22%20%22Thomas%20Howard%22&f=false
>
> If that monstrous URL doesn't link, try this:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cnpy855
>
> As you say, there was a connection between the Bucks and the Howards, so it's quite likely that Buck learned it through family tradition (either his family's or the Howards'). You already know about the marriage between Ralph Scrope and Cecily, so I assume that you also know about Richard's promise to find suitable husbands for the other daughters who would "lovingly love them" or face his displeasure. You may also know that near the time of his wife's death, he was negotiating a marriage for Elizabeth of York with Manuel of Portugal (and for himself with Joanna of Portugal). Thomas Howard would certainly be a suitable husband for Anne, just two years older and the son of an earl, and, more important, both his father and grandfather were loyal to Richard. But Richard made a point of saying that he would arrange marriages for the younger girls when they reached a suitable age, so it seems unlikely (though not impossible) that he would arrange such a marriage in 1484 when Anne was only nine and Thomas eleven. On the other hand, if he *had* made such an arrangement and Henry honored it, that might be a means of insuring the loyalty of Thomas's father (along with Henry's keeping Thomas and his brother at his court as pages, virtual hostages to insure their father's loyalty in action if not in heart).
>
> I would recommend finding Buck in a library. Be sure it's the 1982 edition edited by Anne Sutton and not the bowdlerized edition for which Buck's nephew, George Buck, Esq., took credit.
>
> I also noticed your questions about Anne's sister Mary, which I can't answer. Possibly Charles Ross deals with them in his biography of Edward IV. I would take anything Amy License says with a very large grain of salt.
>
> Carol
>