The hunt for Stillington

Hilary, Stephen, and anyone else on a hunt for Stillington may find the site that AJ just cited for John de la Pole useful. Someone (Ian, last name unknown) has done extensive searching for references to a huge number of fifteenth-century people. His sources include the Ricardian, meaning that he may be one of us! (Where or how did you find him, AJ?)

His work is all in Word documents, so you can't access them directly. For Stillington, go to http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=Sti%2F and then click the entry for Stillington, Robert, d. 1491. It would be interesting to compare this itinerary with the old and new DNB entries to see if it contains any additional information. He seems to have been sent on an inordinate number of commissions of the peace (maybe he excelled as a diplomat?).

You'll need the link to sources that I gave to AJ earlier:

http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=5+References%2F

Click List of References. doc.

Who is the man who did all this work and why isn't he a member of this forum? (Whoever you are, Ian, thank you!)

Carol

Hi Carol - I'd like to take credit for this, but t'wasn't I.

A J


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:19 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hilary, Stephen, and anyone else on a hunt for Stillington may find the
> site that AJ just cited for John de la Pole useful. Someone (Ian, last name
> unknown) has done extensive searching for references to a huge number of
> fifteenth-century people. His sources include the Ricardian, meaning that
> he may be one of us! (Where or how did you find him, AJ?)
>
> His work is all in Word documents, so you can't access them directly. For
> Stillington, go to http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=Sti%2F and then
> click the entry for Stillington, Robert, d. 1491. It would be interesting
> to compare this itinerary with the old and new DNB entries to see if it
> contains any additional information. He seems to have been sent on an
> inordinate number of commissions of the peace (maybe he excelled as a
> diplomat?).
>
> You'll need the link to sources that I gave to AJ earlier:
>
> http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=5+References%2F
>
> Click List of References. doc.
>
> Who is the man who did all this work and why isn't he a member of this
> forum? (Whoever you are, Ian, thank you!)
>
> Carol
>
>
>

Wow - you are absolutely right - this looks like a great site with a
"diary" for every year 1452-1485, and, as of 2009, 40,000 names. I also
see that the earliest files are dated 1970.

Certainly a labor of love...

A J


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:19 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hilary, Stephen, and anyone else on a hunt for Stillington may find the
> site that AJ just cited for John de la Pole useful. Someone (Ian, last name
> unknown) has done extensive searching for references to a huge number of
> fifteenth-century people. His sources include the Ricardian, meaning that
> he may be one of us! (Where or how did you find him, AJ?)
>
> His work is all in Word documents, so you can't access them directly. For
> Stillington, go to http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=Sti%2F and then
> click the entry for Stillington, Robert, d. 1491. It would be interesting
> to compare this itinerary with the old and new DNB entries to see if it
> contains any additional information. He seems to have been sent on an
> inordinate number of commissions of the peace (maybe he excelled as a
> diplomat?).
>
> You'll need the link to sources that I gave to AJ earlier:
>
> http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=5+References%2F
>
> Click List of References. doc.
>
> Who is the man who did all this work and why isn't he a member of this
> forum? (Whoever you are, Ian, thank you!)
>
> Carol
>
>
>

I've been there. Be careful it doesn't all stack up. That's the problem with genealogy on the internet, you need to compare a lot of sources and see what is the common factor. I still can't find Stillington as an Oxbridge scholar (and Hicks doesn't say what college he attended). Langton, Rotherham, Morton, Nyke are all there, but not Stillington. Where did you get it from Hicks?
 
Oh for blessed parish registers!!
 
But thanks!!  


________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 22:25
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


Hi Carol - I'd like to take credit for this, but t'wasn't I.

A J


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:19 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hilary, Stephen, and anyone else on a hunt for Stillington may find the
> site that AJ just cited for John de la Pole useful. Someone (Ian, last name
> unknown) has done extensive searching for references to a huge number of
> fifteenth-century people. His sources include the Ricardian, meaning that
> he may be one of us! (Where or how did you find him, AJ?)
>
> His work is all in Word documents, so you can't access them directly. For
> Stillington, go to http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=Sti%2Fand then
> click the entry for Stillington, Robert, d. 1491. It would be interesting
> to compare this itinerary with the old and new DNB entries to see if it
> contains any additional information. He seems to have been sent on an
> inordinate number of commissions of the peace (maybe he excelled as a
> diplomat?).
>
> You'll need the link to sources that I gave to AJ earlier:
>
> http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=5+References%2F
>
> Click List of References. doc.
>
> Who is the man who did all this work and why isn't he a member of this
> forum? (Whoever you are, Ian, thank you!)
>
> Carol
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Looks useful;)
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:19 PM
Subject: The hunt for Stillington



Hilary, Stephen, and anyone else on a hunt for Stillington may find the site that AJ just cited for John de la Pole useful. Someone (Ian, last name unknown) has done extensive searching for references to a huge number of fifteenth-century people. His sources include the Ricardian, meaning that he may be one of us! (Where or how did you find him, AJ?)

His work is all in Word documents, so you can't access them directly. For Stillington, go to http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=Sti%2F and then click the entry for Stillington, Robert, d. 1491. It would be interesting to compare this itinerary with the old and new DNB entries to see if it contains any additional information. He seems to have been sent on an inordinate number of commissions of the peace (maybe he excelled as a diplomat?).

You'll need the link to sources that I gave to AJ earlier:

http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=5+References%2F

Click List of References. doc.

Who is the man who did all this work and why isn't he a member of this forum? (Whoever you are, Ian, thank you!)

Carol

Been there Stephen - just take care! 



________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 22:40
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


 

Looks useful;)
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:19 PM
Subject: The hunt for Stillington

Hilary, Stephen, and anyone else on a hunt for Stillington may find the site that AJ just cited for John de la Pole useful. Someone (Ian, last name unknown) has done extensive searching for references to a huge number of fifteenth-century people. His sources include the Ricardian, meaning that he may be one of us! (Where or how did you find him, AJ?)

His work is all in Word documents, so you can't access them directly. For Stillington, go to http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=Sti%2F and then click the entry for Stillington, Robert, d. 1491. It would be interesting to compare this itinerary with the old and new DNB entries to see if it contains any additional information. He seems to have been sent on an inordinate number of commissions of the peace (maybe he excelled as a diplomat?).

You'll need the link to sources that I gave to AJ earlier:

http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=5+References%2F

Click List of References. doc.

Who is the man who did all this work and why isn't he a member of this forum? (Whoever you are, Ian, thank you!)

Carol

Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> I've been there. Be careful it doesn't all stack up. That's the problem with genealogy on the internet, you need to compare a lot of sources and see what is the common factor. I still can't find Stillington as an Oxbridge scholar (and Hicks doesn't say what college he attended). Langton, Rotherham, Morton, Nyke are all there, but not Stillington. Where did you get it from Hicks?

Carol responds:

I'm not sure what you're asking (if you're asking me) since I didn't mention Hicks. As you say, his DNB article on Stillington says nothing about his education but has him as a senior Oxford academic in 1442, which leads him to what I believe is the mistaken conclusion that he was born before 1410. Maybe he was just precocious and became a senior academic, receiving a doctor's degree at age 22. (The source I just cited lists him as Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, Oxford (no date, source Compact DNB, which I suspect is a condensation of the old DNB and therefore possibly out of date). At any rate, that degree does suggest that he was an Oxford scholar as a graduate and, presumably, undergraduate student.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "are all there." All where? Who lists them (but not Stillington)?

And how doesn't it stack up? He's just giving events, dates, and sources. I thought it would be interesting to compare his (entirely objective) account with the two DNB articles, looking for conflicts and assigning (tentative) sources to the other material. Of course, the reliability has to be weighted according to whether the source is primary or secondary and, if primary, a chronicle or an official record.

BTW, the man's name is Ian Girders (should have figured that out from the web address!) and he's a Yorkshireman. He has no entry for Richard or anyone in his immediate family except his two known illegitimate children and the suspected one, Richard of Eastwell (nothing new or productive there), but he's done a lot of research on many other figures associated in one way or another with Richard. It would be worth consulting him, IMO, if only to avoid duplicating effort.

Carol

Actually in the folder labelled Article, he signs as Ian Rogers.

A J


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:03 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > I've been there. Be careful it doesn't all stack up. That's the problem
> with genealogy on the internet, you need to compare a lot of sources
> and see what is the common factor. I still can't find Stillington as an
> Oxbridge scholar (and Hicks doesn't say what college he attended). Langton,
> Rotherham, Morton, Nyke are all there, but not Stillington. Where did you
> get it from Hicks?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I'm not sure what you're asking (if you're asking me) since I didn't
> mention Hicks. As you say, his DNB article on Stillington says nothing
> about his education but has him as a senior Oxford academic in 1442, which
> leads him to what I believe is the mistaken conclusion that he was born
> before 1410. Maybe he was just precocious and became a senior academic,
> receiving a doctor's degree at age 22. (The source I just cited lists him
> as Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, Oxford (no date, source Compact DNB,
> which I suspect is a condensation of the old DNB and therefore possibly out
> of date). At any rate, that degree does suggest that he was an Oxford
> scholar as a graduate and, presumably, undergraduate student.
>
> I'm also not sure what you mean by "are all there." All where? Who lists
> them (but not Stillington)?
>
> And how doesn't it stack up? He's just giving events, dates, and sources.
> I thought it would be interesting to compare his (entirely objective)
> account with the two DNB articles, looking for conflicts and assigning
> (tentative) sources to the other material. Of course, the reliability has
> to be weighted according to whether the source is primary or secondary and,
> if primary, a chronicle or an official record.
>
> BTW, the man's name is Ian Girders (should have figured that out from the
> web address!) and he's a Yorkshireman. He has no entry for Richard or
> anyone in his immediate family except his two known illegitimate children
> and the suspected one, Richard of Eastwell (nothing new or productive
> there), but he's done a lot of research on many other figures associated in
> one way or another with Richard. It would be worth consulting him, IMO, if
> only to avoid duplicating effort.
>
> Carol
>
>
>

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:19 PM
Subject: The hunt for Stillington



> Hilary, Stephen, and anyone else on a hunt for Stillington may find the
> site that AJ just cited for John de la Pole useful. Someone (Ian, last
> name unknown) has done extensive searching for references to a huge number
> of fifteenth-century people.

Aha! Thank you, thank you, *this* is where I got the itinerary files for
Richard, which I afterwards couldn't rememeber where I'd found the damn
things or who'd drawn them up.

Sorry Carol, I'm not talking about you and Hicks.
 
Stillington doesn't appear in the Oxford/Cambridge alumni lists - but it could be because he is too early, Oxford only lists from 1500 but Langton, Morton and Rotherham are there although they pre-date this.
 
Unless you've got parish registers (post 1537), you have to take a number of sets of data, sixteenth century visitations, national archives documents, regional record office documents, wills, etc to prove that what is assumed is right. It's like modern day audit of data. So when I looked for Ankarette and her family I had to look at a number of sources - there were for example a number of William Twynyhos, who could have been her husband, her son etc and it wasn't helped by the fact that two of them died within ten years of one another. Sometimes it's the most innocuous thing that gives you the answer, like someone hunting for their genealogy under Hawkeston/Corbet and they don't recognise the significance to us.
 
I'm not saying Ian Girders is wrong - but you need to check his assumptions against others.
 
And by the way you're right; the less they mention 'our guy' the better, because at least bias hasn't crept in.  I hope I've explained - a bit H  

________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 23:03
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington

 



Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> I've been there. Be careful it doesn't all stack up. That's the problem with genealogy on the internet, you need to compare a lot of sources and see what is the common factor. I still can't find Stillington as an Oxbridge scholar (and Hicks doesn't say what college he attended). Langton, Rotherham, Morton, Nyke are all there, but not Stillington. Where did you get it from Hicks?

Carol responds:

I'm not sure what you're asking (if you're asking me) since I didn't mention Hicks. As you say, his DNB article on Stillington says nothing about his education but has him as a senior Oxford academic in 1442, which leads him to what I believe is the mistaken conclusion that he was born before 1410. Maybe he was just precocious and became a senior academic, receiving a doctor's degree at age 22. (The source I just cited lists him as Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, Oxford (no date, source Compact DNB, which I suspect is a condensation of the old DNB and therefore possibly out of date). At any rate, that degree does suggest that he was an Oxford scholar as a graduate and, presumably, undergraduate student.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "are all there." All where? Who lists them (but not Stillington)?

And how doesn't it stack up? He's just giving events, dates, and sources. I thought it would be interesting to compare his (entirely objective) account with the two DNB articles, looking for conflicts and assigning (tentative) sources to the other material. Of course, the reliability has to be weighted according to whether the source is primary or secondary and, if primary, a chronicle or an official record.

BTW, the man's name is Ian Girders (should have figured that out from the web address!) and he's a Yorkshireman. He has no entry for Richard or anyone in his immediate family except his two known illegitimate children and the suspected one, Richard of Eastwell (nothing new or productive there), but he's done a lot of research on many other figures associated in one way or another with Richard. It would be worth consulting him, IMO, if only to avoid duplicating effort.

Carol

Claire wrote:
> Aha! Thank you, thank you, *this* is where I got the itinerary files for Richard, which I afterwards couldn't rememeber where I'd found the damn things or who'd drawn them up.


Carol responds:

I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or "Plantagenet." How is he listed>

Carol

He's not. The author's stated intent is to only provide biographies for
people who have not had books written about them So no bios for Edward IV,
Elizabeth Woodville, Richard, etc. But they do appear on the "diary"
pages. However, Richard & Edward are there in full force on the yearly
diary pages.

A J


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 8:09 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Claire wrote:
> > Aha! Thank you, thank you, *this* is where I got the itinerary files for
> Richard, which I afterwards couldn't rememeber where I'd found the damn
> things or who'd drawn them up.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or
> "Plantagenet." How is he listed>
>
> Carol
>
>
>

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington

> I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or
> "Plantagenet." How is he listed>

Logically yet perversely, the itinerary is listed under "Diary". It's
massively uiseful - it lists not only where Richard himself is known to have
been on various dates but also the major events of the period, although
there are a few errors because he e.g. trusts all PMK's dating, including
placing Richard as a permanent resident at Middleham younger than he was.

He quotes sources for every date hje gives - but the sources are jusut
initials and he doesn't provide a glossary!

In a few months, when I hope to ahve more time, I was planning to do the
itinerary up in a form which can be posted on the forum and then invite
corrections to any errors so we can get it as accurate as possible.

That would be wonderful!

Tamara







-----Original Message-----
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To: <>
Sent: Fri, Apr 26, 2013 2:58 am
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington

> I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or
> "Plantagenet." How is he listed>

Logically yet perversely, the itinerary is listed under "Diary". It's
massively uiseful - it lists not only where Richard himself is known to have
been on various dates but also the major events of the period, although
there are a few errors because he e.g. trusts all PMK's dating, including
placing Richard as a permanent resident at Middleham younger than he was.

He quotes sources for every date hje gives - but the sources are jusut
initials and he doesn't provide a glossary!

In a few months, when I hope to ahve more time, I was planning to do the
itinerary up in a form which can be posted on the forum and then invite
corrections to any errors so we can get it as accurate as possible.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Super, and the start of a great trip!

On Apr 26, 2013, at 2:58 AM, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...<mailto:whitehound@...>> wrote:



From: justcarol67
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington

> I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or
> "Plantagenet." How is he listed>

Logically yet perversely, the itinerary is listed under "Diary". It's
massively uiseful - it lists not only where Richard himself is known to have
been on various dates but also the major events of the period, although
there are a few errors because he e.g. trusts all PMK's dating, including
placing Richard as a permanent resident at Middleham younger than he was.

He quotes sources for every date hje gives - but the sources are jusut
initials and he doesn't provide a glossary!

In a few months, when I hope to ahve more time, I was planning to do the
itinerary up in a form which can be posted on the forum and then invite
corrections to any errors so we can get it as accurate as possible.

Claire wrote:
> Logically yet perversely, the itinerary is listed under "Diary". It's massively uiseful - it lists not only where Richard himself is known to have been on various dates but also the major events of the period, although there are a few errors because he e.g. trusts all PMK's dating, including placing Richard as a permanent resident at Middleham younger than he was.
>
> He quotes sources for every date hje gives - but the sources are jusut initials and he doesn't provide a glossary!
>
> In a few months, when I hope to ahve more time, I was planning to do the itinerary up in a form which can be posted on the forum and then invite corrections to any errors so we can get it as accurate as possible.
>
Carol responds:

Thanks (also to the other person who provided this information). He does provide a list of references (not a glossary), which explains the abbreviations he uses for his sources. Click the link to Home and then click references (item 5 on his list).

I notice that he also lists Weir as a source. Ugh. But the references to rolls of Parliament and so forth are useful, and where he lists Kendall or Ross, we can always check *their* sources.

Carol

I'm either being thick or am technologically challenged because I can't seem to access anything beyond the List of References. How do you get to the Diary pages? Thanks, Pamela Garrett

--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> He's not. The author's stated intent is to only provide biographies for
> people who have not had books written about them So no bios for Edward IV,
> Elizabeth Woodville, Richard, etc. But they do appear on the "diary"
> pages. However, Richard & Edward are there in full force on the yearly
> diary pages.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 8:09 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Claire wrote:
> > > Aha! Thank you, thank you, *this* is where I got the itinerary files for
> > Richard, which I afterwards couldn't rememeber where I'd found the damn
> > things or who'd drawn them up.
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or
> > "Plantagenet." How is he listed>
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

You have to go "up" the file structure (click on the file with green arrow
icon). Then you should be able to go "down" the file structure again &
click on the folder you want. It will download to your computer (at least
mine does) where you can read it; it doesn't open on-line.

A J


On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Pamela <ownwrite101@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I'm either being thick or am technologically challenged because I can't
> seem to access anything beyond the List of References. How do you get to
> the Diary pages? Thanks, Pamela Garrett
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > He's not. The author's stated intent is to only provide biographies for
> > people who have not had books written about them So no bios for Edward
> IV,
> > Elizabeth Woodville, Richard, etc. But they do appear on the "diary"
> > pages. However, Richard & Edward are there in full force on the yearly
> > diary pages.
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 8:09 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Claire wrote:
> > > > Aha! Thank you, thank you, *this* is where I got the itinerary files
> for
> > > Richard, which I afterwards couldn't rememeber where I'd found the damn
> > > things or who'd drawn them up.
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or
> > > "Plantagenet." How is he listed>
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

For the life of me I cannot see why people use Alison Weir as a source. Her "evidence" that proves Richard did kill the Princes has been proved to be absolutely without foundation by someone who is a better historian than she will ever be, Peter Hammond. Anyone who knows anything about the Wars of the Roses only has to read the first few pages of her books on that period to know that she hasn't done any research. I started to read her book about Eleanor of Aquitaine but I gave up because I could not be sure that what I was reading had been properly researched. Incidentally Hicks has republished his book on Richard this year. Bandwagons and jumping spring to mind.

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Claire wrote:
> > Logically yet perversely, the itinerary is listed under "Diary". It's massively uiseful - it lists not only where Richard himself is known to have been on various dates but also the major events of the period, although there are a few errors because he e.g. trusts all PMK's dating, including placing Richard as a permanent resident at Middleham younger than he was.
> >
> > He quotes sources for every date hje gives - but the sources are jusut initials and he doesn't provide a glossary!
> >
> > In a few months, when I hope to ahve more time, I was planning to do the itinerary up in a form which can be posted on the forum and then invite corrections to any errors so we can get it as accurate as possible.
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks (also to the other person who provided this information). He does provide a list of references (not a glossary), which explains the abbreviations he uses for his sources. Click the link to Home and then click references (item 5 on his list).
>
> I notice that he also lists Weir as a source. Ugh. But the references to rolls of Parliament and so forth are useful, and where he lists Kendall or Ross, we can always check *their* sources.
>
> Carol
>

His name is Ian Rogers and it is brilliant.  No idea who he is but what a labour of love!



________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 22:31
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


Wow - you are absolutely right - this looks like a great site with a
"diary" for every year 1452-1485, and, as of 2009, 40,000 names.  I also
see that the earliest files are dated 1970.

Certainly a labor of love...

A J


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 4:19 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hilary, Stephen, and anyone else on a hunt for Stillington may find the
> site that AJ just cited for John de la Pole useful. Someone (Ian, last name
> unknown) has done extensive searching for references to a huge number of
> fifteenth-century people. His sources include the Ricardian, meaning that
> he may be one of us! (Where or how did you find him, AJ?)
>
> His work is all in Word documents, so you can't access them directly. For
> Stillington, go to http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=Sti%2F and then
> click the entry for Stillington, Robert, d. 1491. It would be interesting
> to compare this itinerary with the old and new DNB entries to see if it
> contains any additional information. He seems to have been sent on an
> inordinate number of commissions of the peace (maybe he excelled as a
> diplomat?).
>
> You'll need the link to sources that I gave to AJ earlier:
>
> http://www.girders.net/index.php?dir=5+References%2F
>
> Click List of References. doc.
>
> Who is the man who did all this work and why isn't he a member of this
> forum? (Whoever you are, Ian, thank you!)
>
> Carol
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

His contact details are on there, int he contact details file.  Although his name is Ian Rogers, it seems that ian.girders is his e mail address.


________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 26 April 2013, 19:45
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


You have to go "up" the file structure (click on the file with green arrow
icon).  Then you should be able to go "down" the file structure again &
click on the folder you want.  It will download to your computer (at least
mine does) where you can read it; it doesn't open on-line.

A J


On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Pamela <ownwrite101@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I'm either being thick or am technologically challenged because I can't
> seem to access anything beyond the List of References. How do you get to
> the Diary pages? Thanks, Pamela Garrett
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > He's not. The author's stated intent is to only provide biographies for
> > people who have not had books written about them So no bios for Edward
> IV,
> > Elizabeth Woodville, Richard, etc. But they do appear on the "diary"
> > pages. However, Richard & Edward are there in full force on the yearly
> > diary pages.
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 8:09 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Claire wrote:
> > > > Aha! Thank you, thank you, *this* is where I got the itinerary files
> for
> > > Richard, which I afterwards couldn't rememeber where I'd found the damn
> > > things or who'd drawn them up.
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or
> > > "Plantagenet." How is he listed>
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I always do consult girders by the way and then match it up with the others. It's a case if taking the common factor and preferably testing it with Wills or NA docs.
 
BTW it's disappointing to learn that only 30% of record office docs are digitalised and there is no plan do to more. What must we be missing? And how I respect people like Halsted who had to track down all this from scratch and trundle from source to source in coaches or by sooty rail. 


________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 23:11
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


Actually in the folder labelled Article, he signs as Ian Rogers.

A J


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:03 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > I've been there. Be careful it doesn't all stack up. That's the problem
> with genealogy on the internet, you need to compare a lot of sources
> and see what is the common factor. I still can't find Stillington as an
> Oxbridge scholar (and Hicks doesn't say what college he attended). Langton,
> Rotherham, Morton, Nyke are all there, but not Stillington. Where did you
> get it from Hicks?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I'm not sure what you're asking (if you're asking me) since I didn't
> mention Hicks. As you say, his DNB article on Stillington says nothing
> about his education but has him as a senior Oxford academic in 1442, which
> leads him to what I believe is the mistaken conclusion that he was born
> before 1410. Maybe he was just precocious and became a senior academic,
> receiving a doctor's degree at age 22. (The source I just cited lists him
> as Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, Oxford (no date, source Compact DNB,
> which I suspect is a condensation of the old DNB and therefore possibly out
> of date). At any rate, that degree does suggest that he was an Oxford
> scholar as a graduate and, presumably, undergraduate student.
>
> I'm also not sure what you mean by "are all there." All where? Who lists
> them (but not Stillington)?
>
> And how doesn't it stack up? He's just giving events, dates, and sources.
> I thought it would be interesting to compare his (entirely objective)
> account with the two DNB articles, looking for conflicts and assigning
> (tentative) sources to the other material. Of course, the reliability has
> to be weighted according to whether the source is primary or secondary and,
> if primary, a chronicle or an official record.
>
> BTW, the man's name is Ian Girders (should have figured that out from the
> web address!) and he's a Yorkshireman. He has no entry for Richard or
> anyone in his immediate family except his two known illegitimate children
> and the suspected one, Richard of Eastwell (nothing new or productive
> there), but he's done a lot of research on many other figures associated in
> one way or another with Richard. It would be worth consulting him, IMO, if
> only to avoid duplicating effort.
>
> Carol
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

What if Stillington, in his mid-fifties at least, became ill during 1476-7 and wanted the secret not to die with him? We know with hindsight that he survived.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington



I always do consult girders by the way and then match it up with the others. It's a case if taking the common factor and preferably testing it with Wills or NA docs.

BTW it's disappointing to learn that only 30% of record office docs are digitalised and there is no plan do to more. What must we be missing? And how I respect people like Halsted who had to track down all this from scratch and trundle from source to source in coaches or by sooty rail.


________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 23:11
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


Actually in the folder labelled Article, he signs as Ian Rogers.

A J

On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:03 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > I've been there. Be careful it doesn't all stack up. That's the problem
> with genealogy on the internet, you need to compare a lot of sources
> and see what is the common factor. I still can't find Stillington as an
> Oxbridge scholar (and Hicks doesn't say what college he attended). Langton,
> Rotherham, Morton, Nyke are all there, but not Stillington. Where did you
> get it from Hicks?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I'm not sure what you're asking (if you're asking me) since I didn't
> mention Hicks. As you say, his DNB article on Stillington says nothing
> about his education but has him as a senior Oxford academic in 1442, which
> leads him to what I believe is the mistaken conclusion that he was born
> before 1410. Maybe he was just precocious and became a senior academic,
> receiving a doctor's degree at age 22. (The source I just cited lists him
> as Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, Oxford (no date, source Compact DNB,
> which I suspect is a condensation of the old DNB and therefore possibly out
> of date). At any rate, that degree does suggest that he was an Oxford
> scholar as a graduate and, presumably, undergraduate student.
>
> I'm also not sure what you mean by "are all there." All where? Who lists
> them (but not Stillington)?
>
> And how doesn't it stack up? He's just giving events, dates, and sources.
> I thought it would be interesting to compare his (entirely objective)
> account with the two DNB articles, looking for conflicts and assigning
> (tentative) sources to the other material. Of course, the reliability has
> to be weighted according to whether the source is primary or secondary and,
> if primary, a chronicle or an official record.
>
> BTW, the man's name is Ian Girders (should have figured that out from the
> web address!) and he's a Yorkshireman. He has no entry for Richard or
> anyone in his immediate family except his two known illegitimate children
> and the suspected one, Richard of Eastwell (nothing new or productive
> there), but he's done a lot of research on many other figures associated in
> one way or another with Richard. It would be worth consulting him, IMO, if
> only to avoid duplicating effort.
>
> Carol
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Another good scenario. I now have the wills!!



________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 26 April 2013, 22:28
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


 

What if Stillington, in his mid-fifties at least, became ill during 1476-7 and wanted the secret not to die with him? We know with hindsight that he survived.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilary Jones
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington

I always do consult girders by the way and then match it up with the others. It's a case if taking the common factor and preferably testing it with Wills or NA docs.

BTW it's disappointing to learn that only 30% of record office docs are digitalised and there is no plan do to more. What must we be missing? And how I respect people like Halsted who had to track down all this from scratch and trundle from source to source in coaches or by sooty rail.

________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <mailto:ajhibbard%40gmail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 23:11
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington

Actually in the folder labelled Article, he signs as Ian Rogers.

A J

On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:03 PM, justcarol67 <mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > I've been there. Be careful it doesn't all stack up. That's the problem
> with genealogy on the internet, you need to compare a lot of sources
> and see what is the common factor. I still can't find Stillington as an
> Oxbridge scholar (and Hicks doesn't say what college he attended). Langton,
> Rotherham, Morton, Nyke are all there, but not Stillington. Where did you
> get it from Hicks?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I'm not sure what you're asking (if you're asking me) since I didn't
> mention Hicks. As you say, his DNB article on Stillington says nothing
> about his education but has him as a senior Oxford academic in 1442, which
> leads him to what I believe is the mistaken conclusion that he was born
> before 1410. Maybe he was just precocious and became a senior academic,
> receiving a doctor's degree at age 22. (The source I just cited lists him
> as Doctor of Civil and Canon Law, Oxford (no date, source Compact DNB,
> which I suspect is a condensation of the old DNB and therefore possibly out
> of date). At any rate, that degree does suggest that he was an Oxford
> scholar as a graduate and, presumably, undergraduate student.
>
> I'm also not sure what you mean by "are all there." All where? Who lists
> them (but not Stillington)?
>
> And how doesn't it stack up? He's just giving events, dates, and sources.
> I thought it would be interesting to compare his (entirely objective)
> account with the two DNB articles, looking for conflicts and assigning
> (tentative) sources to the other material. Of course, the reliability has
> to be weighted according to whether the source is primary or secondary and,
> if primary, a chronicle or an official record.
>
> BTW, the man's name is Ian Girders (should have figured that out from the
> web address!) and he's a Yorkshireman. He has no entry for Richard or
> anyone in his immediate family except his two known illegitimate children
> and the suspected one, Richard of Eastwell (nothing new or productive
> there), but he's done a lot of research on many other figures associated in
> one way or another with Richard. It would be worth consulting him, IMO, if
> only to avoid duplicating effort.
>
> Carol
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

"Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> What if Stillington, in his mid-fifties at least, became ill during 1476-7 and wanted the secret not to die with him? We know with hindsight that he survived.

Carol responds:

It's possible. Girders.net cites Wedgewood's "History of Parliament" to suggest that he was excused from his office as chancellor in 1473 because of illness (it could also be because of his association with George; either way, Edward still made use of him until 1478--a gazillion commissions of the peace, whatever that involves).

Our "friend" Hicks mentions that he was pardoned for his "horrible and haneous offenses [read Titulus Regius]" against Henry VII (RotP, 6.292) on November 22, 1485, because of his "grete age, long infirmite, and feeblenesse" (W. Campbell, ed., "Materials for a History of the Reign of Henry VII," 1.172), but that was eight or nine years after the period in question. BTW, would seventy-five (the age usually given for Stillington, Hicks to the contrary) be considered a "grete age" in 1485?

I can't find any other evidence for illness. Despite spending little time in his clerical duties, according to Hicks, he seems to have been quite active even after his arrest (and pardon) for both Edward and Richard. How many wills did he make, and when? That might give an indication of whether he thought that he was dying.

As an aside, it's interesting that Hicks dismisses the idea that Stillington had illegitimate children. He mentions only one and attributes that idea to Commynes (who also, according to Hicks, said that Richard planned to marry Elizabeth of York to that illegitimate son of Stillington's, a story that we can now disprove. (I haven't yet checked Commynes, whose less than trustworthy memoir is one of the online texts at the American branch website, to see what he actually said.)

Carol

Stephen Lark wrote:

"What if Stillington, in his mid-fifties at least, became ill during 1476-7
and wanted the secret not to die with him? We know with hindsight that he
survived."

Oh great! Now we have to hunt for Stillington's BFF! I'm sure Hilary will be
thrilled...
Doug
(it's snark, snark, I tell you!)

Carol earlier:
>
> [snip] As an aside, it's interesting that Hicks dismisses the idea that Stillington had illegitimate children. He mentions only one and attributes that idea to Commynes (who also, according to Hicks, said that Richard planned to marry Elizabeth of York to that illegitimate son of Stillington's, a story that we can now disprove. (I haven't yet checked Commynes, whose less than trustworthy memoir is one of the online texts at the American branch website, to see what he actually said.)

Carol responds:

I found the passage from Commyes (who, of course, is writing from the French point of view about "wicked" King Richard) about Stillington's (supposed) illegitimate son and Richard's (alleged) plans for him:

"This wicked bishop [Stillington] kept thoughts of revenge in his heart for, perhaps, twenty years. But it turned out unfortunately for him, for he had a son whom he loved a great deal whom King Richard wanted to endow with wide estates and to marry to one of those two daughters [one of Commynes's errors showing his unreliability; another is Edward V's age as ten] who had been degraded — the one who is the present queen of England and has beautiful children. This son was serving in a warship by command of his master, King Richard. He was captured on the coast of Normandy and, after a quarrel with those who captured him, he was brought to Parlement and imprisoned in the Petit Chàlet42 at Paris for so long in poverty that he died of hunger."

http://newr3.dreamhosters.com/?page_id=2057

I know nothing else about this incident or why Commynes, who obviously knew nothing about Richard's real plans for EoY, would think that Richard would have such plans for Stillington's (possibly imaginary) illegitimate son. Maybe Commynes assumed that Richard would reward Stillington for revealing the precontract (which Commynes presents as a promise of marriage rather than a marriage) and came up with this story as the *intended* reward. Note that he makes both Stillington and Richard wicked, clearly believing or wanting to believe all the Tudor propaganda he knows about (Richard killed or witnessed the killing of Henry VI; Richard usurped the throne and declared Edward's "two daughters" (!) illegitimate; Richard (or Buckingham) killed Edward's sons. (He says nothing of Richard's other "crimes" or "deformity," an indication that those stories had not yet spread to France at the time the memoir was written (completed in 1498).

Given his mangled version of events, which reflects his third-hand knowledge of events and Tudor sources, I tend to doubt all aspects of the story of Stillington's illegitimate son. But that Louis XI or his officers might allow some unknown prisoner, especially an Englishman, to die of hunger (as Commynes calmly reports) I don't doubt.

Carol

From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: The hunt for Stillington


> I found the passage from Commyes (who, of course, is writing from the
> French point of view about "wicked" King Richard) about Stillington's
> (supposed) illegitimate son

Would it have to be an *illegitimate* son? If we don;t even know for sure
when Stillington was born, is there any proof he wasn't a widower with
children when he joined the church? Given how young people married, he
could have been a widower with three kids at eighteen.

There should be a menu at the top which includes a home button. Pressing the home button will get you to the other options including diary that gives year by year entries and article where he sets out his reasons for the project.
Elaine

--- In , "Pamela" <ownwrite101@...> wrote:
>
> I'm either being thick or am technologically challenged because I can't seem to access anything beyond the List of References. How do you get to the Diary pages? Thanks, Pamela Garrett
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> >
> > He's not. The author's stated intent is to only provide biographies for
> > people who have not had books written about them So no bios for Edward IV,
> > Elizabeth Woodville, Richard, etc. But they do appear on the "diary"
> > pages. However, Richard & Edward are there in full force on the yearly
> > diary pages.
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 8:09 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Claire wrote:
> > > > Aha! Thank you, thank you, *this* is where I got the itinerary files for
> > > Richard, which I afterwards couldn't rememeber where I'd found the damn
> > > things or who'd drawn them up.
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > I couldn't find anything for Richard under either "Richard" or
> > > "Plantagenet." How is he listed>
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>