time machine

I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
My top choices:

1) Marry Elizabeth of York to a trusted follower in early 1484, to deprive Tudor any York support

2) Assign his nephew John Earl of Lincoln to raise northern troops and in charge of reserves at Bosworth

3) Propose to French government that in exchange for not supporting Duke Louis of Orléans, they can hand over Henry Tudor dead or alive

I like those, + how about beheading Stanley ?
Nicole

~~~ Music is lots of sound waves coming toward us in a completely chaotic manner and somehow our brain receives that as something beautiful - Matthew Bellamy

To:
From: hli4@...
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:38:58 +0000
Subject: time machine


























I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?

My top choices:



1) Marry Elizabeth of York to a trusted follower in early 1484, to deprive Tudor any York support



2) Assign his nephew John Earl of Lincoln to raise northern troops and in charge of reserves at Bosworth



3) Propose to French government that in exchange for not supporting Duke Louis of Orlýans, they can hand over Henry Tudor dead or alive

From: hli4
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:38 PM
Subject: time machine


> I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?


In no paticular order:

Bring his son Edward to London - in hopes that doing so would sidestep
whatever killed him.

Try to find a solution to the Hastings problem, other than killing him.

Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.

Don't trust Buckingham.

Don't let Buckingham and Morton within 50 miles of each other.

Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.

See if he could defuse Henry Tudor as a threat by sincerely offering him a
job in admin. (but keep a close eye on him and an even closer one on his
mother if he accepts).

Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.

--- In , NICOLE MASIKA <nicolemm_99@...> wrote:
>
> I like those, + how about beheading Stanley ?
> Nicole

Carol responds:

I don't think that Lord Stanley was the main concern. William Stanley. who later turned traitor, wasn't involved in the Hastings plot (assuming that it was real, which I believe).

However, it was a mistake to place Margaret Beaufort in her husband's custody, with access to messengers and spies and an even worse one to place Morton in Buckingham's custody. If Richard had kept Morton in the Tower rather had sent Margaret to Sheriff Hutton or even Sandal Castle under the strict supervision of a loyal retainer, denying her access to visitors or pen and parchment, much grief would have been prevented.

Carol

1. Don't trust Buckingham
2. Put MB in a convent and throw Morton in the tower and lose the key.
3.Don't trust Stanley.
4. Secretly assassinate HT:)

Let me take you back to the 21st century right now! You can bring Anne and Ed of M too:)

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 28, 2013, at 6:49 PM, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:

> From: hli4
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:38 PM
> Subject: time machine
>
> > I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
>
> In no paticular order:
>
> Bring his son Edward to London - in hopes that doing so would sidestep
> whatever killed him.
>
> Try to find a solution to the Hastings problem, other than killing him.
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>
> Don't trust Buckingham.
>
> Don't let Buckingham and Morton within 50 miles of each other.
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>
> See if he could defuse Henry Tudor as a threat by sincerely offering him a
> job in admin. (but keep a close eye on him and an even closer one on his
> mother if he accepts).
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>
>

Hmm... I think I'd rather advise Edward IV, since he was the cause of the mess in the first place.

1. Get rid of that Woodville wench and get a proper, legal wife, you bigamous ninny. And a proper, legitimate heir. If you can't do that, then outlive Stillington.

2. Lose the weight, get fit, see your daughters married and your grandchildren playing at your feet.

3. Damn the French pension, support Brittany and Burgundy when they need you. (Loyalty, honor, remember those?)

4. GET HENRY TUDOR BACK IN ENGLAND and keep him there. Give him whatever wealth and position it takes to satisfy his mummy, whatever makes her sit down and shut the hell up. If she doesn't, then imprison her in the Tower and leave her there without visitors, pen or parchment for everyone's sake.

5. Execute the Earl of Oxford before he escapes.

6. Do not trust the Stanleys or Morton. Evah.

7. Richard's happy being Lord of the North at Middleham. If you love him, leave him there.

8. Don't die until your son is of age to take the throne. See #2.

Of course he wouldn't take any of that advice, so...pfft.

~Weds



--- In , "hli4" <hli4@...> wrote:
>
> I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?

A-yep.






-----Original Message-----
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To: <>
Sent: Sun, Apr 28, 2013 7:19 pm
Subject: Re: time machine


Hmm... I think I'd rather advise Edward IV, since he was the cause of the mess
in the first place.

1. Get rid of that Woodville wench and get a proper, legal wife, you bigamous
ninny. And a proper, legitimate heir. If you can't do that, then outlive
Stillington.

2. Lose the weight, get fit, see your daughters married and your grandchildren
playing at your feet.

3. Damn the French pension, support Brittany and Burgundy when they need you.
(Loyalty, honor, remember those?)

4. GET HENRY TUDOR BACK IN ENGLAND and keep him there. Give him whatever wealth
and position it takes to satisfy his mummy, whatever makes her sit down and shut
the hell up. If she doesn't, then imprison her in the Tower and leave her there
without visitors, pen or parchment for everyone's sake.

5. Execute the Earl of Oxford before he escapes.

6. Do not trust the Stanleys or Morton. Evah.

7. Richard's happy being Lord of the North at Middleham. If you love him, leave
him there.

8. Don't die until your son is of age to take the throne. See #2.

Of course he wouldn't take any of that advice, so...pfft.

~Weds



--- In , "hli4" <hli4@...> wrote:
>
> I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

That is, "A-yep" in that Edward wouldn't listen, most likely.

Tamara



-----Original Message-----
From: khafara <khafara@...>
To: <>
Sent: Sun, Apr 28, 2013 7:57 pm
Subject: Re: Re: time machine


A-yep.






-----Original Message-----
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To: <>
Sent: Sun, Apr 28, 2013 7:19 pm
Subject: Re: time machine


Hmm... I think I'd rather advise Edward IV, since he was the cause of the mess
in the first place.

1. Get rid of that Woodville wench and get a proper, legal wife, you bigamous
ninny. And a proper, legitimate heir. If you can't do that, then outlive
Stillington.

2. Lose the weight, get fit, see your daughters married and your grandchildren
playing at your feet.

3. Damn the French pension, support Brittany and Burgundy when they need you.
(Loyalty, honor, remember those?)

4. GET HENRY TUDOR BACK IN ENGLAND and keep him there. Give him whatever wealth
and position it takes to satisfy his mummy, whatever makes her sit down and shut

the hell up. If she doesn't, then imprison her in the Tower and leave her there
without visitors, pen or parchment for everyone's sake.

5. Execute the Earl of Oxford before he escapes.

6. Do not trust the Stanleys or Morton. Evah.

7. Richard's happy being Lord of the North at Middleham. If you love him, leave
him there.

8. Don't die until your son is of age to take the throne. See #2.

Of course he wouldn't take any of that advice, so...pfft.

~Weds



--- In , "hli4" <hli4@...> wrote:
>
> I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links











------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

EXILE MORTON.....

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: hli4
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:38 PM
> Subject: time machine
>
>
> > I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
>
>
> In no paticular order:
>
> Bring his son Edward to London - in hopes that doing so would sidestep
> whatever killed him.
>
> Try to find a solution to the Hastings problem, other than killing him.
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>
> Don't trust Buckingham.
>
> Don't let Buckingham and Morton within 50 miles of each other.
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>
> See if he could defuse Henry Tudor as a threat by sincerely offering him a
> job in admin. (but keep a close eye on him and an even closer one on his
> mother if he accepts).
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>

Preferably to St Helena



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 16:22
Subject: Re: time machine


 

EXILE MORTON.....

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: hli4
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:38 PM
> Subject: time machine
>
>
> > I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
>
>
> In no paticular order:
>
> Bring his son Edward to London - in hopes that doing so would sidestep
> whatever killed him.
>
> Try to find a solution to the Hastings problem, other than killing him.
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>
> Don't trust Buckingham.
>
> Don't let Buckingham and Morton within 50 miles of each other.
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>
> See if he could defuse Henry Tudor as a threat by sincerely offering him a
> job in admin. (but keep a close eye on him and an even closer one on his
> mother if he accepts).
>
> Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
>

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: time machine


> Preferably to St Helena

That would at least solve the basic problem with exiling him, which is that
then you can't see what he's up to. And I suppose Richard was too honest
and too sincerely Catholic to have Morton quietly assassinated. Really, if
he had *been* the sort of person who would murder somebody just because they
were in his way, one can think of several far more pressing candidates than
his nephews, all of whom outlived him.

Perhaps the best thing to do with Morton would have been to make him parish
priest of some community in Yorkshire where everybody else was loyal to
Richard and the nearest significant town was two day's ride away - but then
some innocent congregants would have had to endure him.

You can say that again! :0/ eileen

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> However, it was a mistake to place Margaret Beaufort in her husband's custody, with access to messengers and spies and an even worse one to place Morton in Buckingham's custody. If Richard had kept Morton in the Tower rather had sent Margaret to Sheriff Hutton or even Sandal Castle under the strict supervision of a loyal retainer, denying her access to visitors or pen and parchment, much grief would have been prevented.
>
> Carol
>

He was by all accounts quite an affable person, which is why people confided in him. As said before 'never trust a smiling cat'.



________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 16:53
Subject: Re: time machine

 

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: time machine

> Preferably to St Helena

That would at least solve the basic problem with exiling him, which is that
then you can't see what he's up to. And I suppose Richard was too honest
and too sincerely Catholic to have Morton quietly assassinated. Really, if
he had *been* the sort of person who would murder somebody just because they
were in his way, one can think of several far more pressing candidates than
his nephews, all of whom outlived him.

Perhaps the best thing to do with Morton would have been to make him parish
priest of some community in Yorkshire where everybody else was loyal to
Richard and the nearest significant town was two day's ride away - but then
some innocent congregants would have had to endure him.

Oh well said Wednesday....excellent...!

Although your last point (8)....has me wondering what type of king would Edward V have made? I feel he may have been more Woodville than Plantagenet...eileen

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Hmm... I think I'd rather advise Edward IV, since he was the cause of the mess in the first place.
>
> 1. Get rid of that Woodville wench and get a proper, legal wife, you bigamous ninny. And a proper, legitimate heir. If you can't do that, then outlive Stillington.
>
> 2. Lose the weight, get fit, see your daughters married and your grandchildren playing at your feet.
>
> 3. Damn the French pension, support Brittany and Burgundy when they need you. (Loyalty, honor, remember those?)
>
> 4. GET HENRY TUDOR BACK IN ENGLAND and keep him there. Give him whatever wealth and position it takes to satisfy his mummy, whatever makes her sit down and shut the hell up. If she doesn't, then imprison her in the Tower and leave her there without visitors, pen or parchment for everyone's sake.
>
> 5. Execute the Earl of Oxford before he escapes.
>
> 6. Do not trust the Stanleys or Morton. Evah.
>
> 7. Richard's happy being Lord of the North at Middleham. If you love him, leave him there.
>
> 8. Don't die until your son is of age to take the throne. See #2.
>
> Of course he wouldn't take any of that advice, so...pfft.
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
> --- In , "hli4" <hli4@> wrote:
> >
> > I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
>

Lol...I understand St Helena is a very good place to be exiled too...although not for the exilee...eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Preferably to St Helena
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 16:22
> Subject: Re: time machine
>
>
>  
>
> EXILE MORTON.....
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: hli4
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:38 PM
> > Subject: time machine
> >
> >
> > > I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
> >
> >
> > In no paticular order:
> >
> > Bring his son Edward to London - in hopes that doing so would sidestep
> > whatever killed him.
> >
> > Try to find a solution to the Hastings problem, other than killing him.
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
> > Don't trust Buckingham.
> >
> > Don't let Buckingham and Morton within 50 miles of each other.
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
> > See if he could defuse Henry Tudor as a threat by sincerely offering him a
> > job in admin. (but keep a close eye on him and an even closer one on his
> > mother if he accepts).
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I wonder if Thomas More wished the same! 

________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 17:09
Subject: Re: time machine


 

Lol...I understand St Helena is a very good place to be exiled too...although not for the exilee...eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Preferably to St Helena
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 16:22
> Subject: Re: time machine
>
>
>  
>
> EXILE MORTON.....
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: hli4
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:38 PM
> > Subject: time machine
> >
> >
> > > I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
> >
> >
> > In no paticular order:
> >
> > Bring his son Edward to London - in hopes that doing so would sidestep
> > whatever killed him.
> >
> > Try to find a solution to the Hastings problem, other than killing him.
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
> > Don't trust Buckingham.
> >
> > Don't let Buckingham and Morton within 50 miles of each other.
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
> > See if he could defuse Henry Tudor as a threat by sincerely offering him a
> > job in admin. (but keep a close eye on him and an even closer one on his
> > mother if he accepts).
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Or make him rhe ambassador to the Ottoman court - or the Russian court.

Anything to keep him out of France.

Tamara



-----Original Message-----
From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
To: <>
Sent: Mon, Apr 29, 2013 7:09 am
Subject: Re: time machine



Lol...I understand St Helena is a very good place to be exiled too...although
not for the exilee...eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
wrote:
>
> Preferably to St Helena
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 16:22
> Subject: Re: time machine
>
>
> ?
>
> EXILE MORTON.....
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan"
<whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: hli4
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:38 PM
> > Subject: time machine
> >
> >
> > > I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
> >
> >
> > In no paticular order:
> >
> > Bring his son Edward to London - in hopes that doing so would sidestep
> > whatever killed him.
> >
> > Try to find a solution to the Hastings problem, other than killing him.
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
> > Don't trust Buckingham.
> >
> > Don't let Buckingham and Morton within 50 miles of each other.
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
> > See if he could defuse Henry Tudor as a threat by sincerely offering him a
> > job in admin. (but keep a close eye on him and an even closer one on his
> > mother if he accepts).
> >
> > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Encourage him to go for a long walk on a short pier...eileen

--- In , khafara@... wrote:
>
> Or make him rhe ambassador to the Ottoman court - or the Russian court.
>
> Anything to keep him out of France.
>
> Tamara
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
> To: <>
> Sent: Mon, Apr 29, 2013 7:09 am
> Subject: Re: time machine
>
>
>
> Lol...I understand St Helena is a very good place to be exiled too...although
> not for the exilee...eileen
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Preferably to St Helena
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 16:22
> > Subject: Re: time machine
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> > EXILE MORTON.....
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan"
> <whitehound@> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: hli4
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:38 PM
> > > Subject: time machine
> > >
> > >
> > > > I you have a time machine what would you advise Richard III?
> > >
> > >
> > > In no paticular order:
> > >
> > > Bring his son Edward to London - in hopes that doing so would sidestep
> > > whatever killed him.
> > >
> > > Try to find a solution to the Hastings problem, other than killing him.
> > >
> > > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> > >
> > > Don't trust Buckingham.
> > >
> > > Don't let Buckingham and Morton within 50 miles of each other.
> > >
> > > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> > >
> > > See if he could defuse Henry Tudor as a threat by sincerely offering him a
> > > job in admin. (but keep a close eye on him and an even closer one on his
> > > mother if he accepts).
> > >
> > > Don't trust Rhys ap Thomas.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Eileen wrote:
>
> EXILE MORTON.....

Carol responds:

I think imprisonment in a secure fortress under loyal guards would be better--maybe with a diet of bread and water, and definitely no visitors or correspondence. If he's exiled, he can got to France.

Also, put the Earl of Oxford in the custody of someone trustworthy (not James Blount, without whose treasonable freeing of Oxford, Henry could not have won Bosworth). BTW, does anyone know why Edward didn't execute Oxford? Yet another part of his disastrous legacy to his loyal brother.

I like to picture both Morton and the "pious" EB in windowless cells with no furnishings except a chamber pot, a pallet to lie on, and a prie dieu.

Carol

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: time machine


> He was by all accounts quite an affable person, which is why people
> confided in him. As said before 'never trust a smiling cat'.

________________________________
OK - but I read somewhere (don't ask me where, it was 30+ years ago) that he
was notorious for breaking the sanctity of the confessional for political
gain.

Is anything known about his private life - whether he had lovers? I know
Tamara wanted to know for the story she's writing. If it's true about him
breaking the seal of confession he wasn't a sincere priest, so he probably
indulged any whims he thought he could get away with - but is anything known
about that?

I've not found mention of children. Others may have known about the confessional bit, though my guess is that few men of the church were as pious as they purported to be. Political gain all of them, oh yes.


________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 17:40
Subject: Re: time machine

 

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: time machine

> He was by all accounts quite an affable person, which is why people
> confided in him. As said before 'never trust a smiling cat'.

________________________________
OK - but I read somewhere (don't ask me where, it was 30+ years ago) that he
was notorious for breaking the sanctity of the confessional for political
gain.

Is anything known about his private life - whether he had lovers? I know
Tamara wanted to know for the story she's writing. If it's true about him
breaking the seal of confession he wasn't a sincere priest, so he probably
indulged any whims he thought he could get away with - but is anything known
about that?

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Hmm... I think I'd rather advise Edward IV, since he was the cause of the mess in the first place.
>
> 1. Get rid of that Woodville wench and get a proper, legal wife, you bigamous ninny. And a proper, legitimate heir. If you can't do that, then outlive Stillington.
>[snip]
> 8. Don't die until your son is of age to take the throne. See #2.

Carol responds:

And if you do stay "married" to Dame Elizabeth Grey, do not send your eldest son to Ludlow to be raised by Woodvilles! Keep him at court and occasionally send him North to get to know and learn from his uncle Richard.

What on earth was Edward thinking not teaching his son how to rule the kingdom as a Yorkist king, valuing his father's blood and connections over his mother's?

Carol

Truly.
What was Ed thinking when he placed the future king of England in the Woodville's keep? Why not place him with the soldier and administrator with Yorkist blood? Another screw up......

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 29, 2013, at 1:20 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hmm... I think I'd rather advise Edward IV, since he was the cause of the mess in the first place.
> >
> > 1. Get rid of that Woodville wench and get a proper, legal wife, you bigamous ninny. And a proper, legitimate heir. If you can't do that, then outlive Stillington.
> >[snip]
> > 8. Don't die until your son is of age to take the throne. See #2.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> And if you do stay "married" to Dame Elizabeth Grey, do not send your eldest son to Ludlow to be raised by Woodvilles! Keep him at court and occasionally send him North to get to know and learn from his uncle Richard.
>
> What on earth was Edward thinking not teaching his son how to rule the kingdom as a Yorkist king, valuing his father's blood and connections over his mother's?
>
> Carol
>
>