Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Ar
Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Ar
2013-05-03 19:32:21
Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie
have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-03 19:37:15
Thank you Christine....sounds interesting...oh and thank you for giving me the email address of Pauline...her book...Who is who in the WOTR has arrived and very useful it will be...eileen
--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> Christine
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> Christine
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-03 22:44:21
Thanks for this information, Christine. It's reassuring to hear from an expert that Richard's death would have been relatively quick and, hopefully, he would not have suffered too long. Some of the wilder comments speculating on unlikely and extreme scenarios like that in the Telegraph by a science correspondent is publicity seeking and gratuitous. Their insensitivity wounds those of us who care about Richard and how he would have suffered, which is why some of the information coming from Leicester regarding how they intend to promote their good fortune leaves such an unpalatable taste in the mouth.
Elaine
--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> Christine
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
Elaine
--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> Christine
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 03:27:11
From: christineholmes651@...
To:
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 7:32 PM
Subject: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob
Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet
> chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
Hm, maybe, but then think about it practically. If you've got someone's
helmet off - and you're right up close enough to take that helmet off - but
they're still struggling and dangerous, and you don't want to kill them in
any of the usual messy ways because you need them to stay recognisable, why
*wouldn't* you cut their throat?
To:
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 7:32 PM
Subject: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob
Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet
> chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
Hm, maybe, but then think about it practically. If you've got someone's
helmet off - and you're right up close enough to take that helmet off - but
they're still struggling and dangerous, and you don't want to kill them in
any of the usual messy ways because you need them to stay recognisable, why
*wouldn't* you cut their throat?
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 05:54:33
Please pardon a possibly stupid question from a "newbie"... but what is the "folder" where this information from Mr. Savage is posted? It would certainly be interesting to see the comments of a expert on this, considering some of the less expert speculation from journalists and others.
Best,
Anne
--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for this information, Christine. It's reassuring to hear from an expert that Richard's death would have been relatively quick and, hopefully, he would not have suffered too long. Some of the wilder comments speculating on unlikely and extreme scenarios like that in the Telegraph by a science correspondent is publicity seeking and gratuitous. Their insensitivity wounds those of us who care about Richard and how he would have suffered, which is why some of the information coming from Leicester regarding how they intend to promote their good fortune leaves such an unpalatable taste in the mouth.
> Elaine
>
>
> --- In , "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> > have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> > He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> > Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> > The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> > The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> > Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> > Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> > Christine
> > Loyaulte me Lie
> >
>
Best,
Anne
--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for this information, Christine. It's reassuring to hear from an expert that Richard's death would have been relatively quick and, hopefully, he would not have suffered too long. Some of the wilder comments speculating on unlikely and extreme scenarios like that in the Telegraph by a science correspondent is publicity seeking and gratuitous. Their insensitivity wounds those of us who care about Richard and how he would have suffered, which is why some of the information coming from Leicester regarding how they intend to promote their good fortune leaves such an unpalatable taste in the mouth.
> Elaine
>
>
> --- In , "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> > have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> > He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> > Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> > The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> > The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> > Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> > Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> > Christine
> > Loyaulte me Lie
> >
>
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 09:12:43
"Files".
----- Original Message -----
From: anitathehun
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
Please pardon a possibly stupid question from a "newbie"... but what is the "folder" where this information from Mr. Savage is posted? It would certainly be interesting to see the comments of a expert on this, considering some of the less expert speculation from journalists and others.
Best,
Anne
--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for this information, Christine. It's reassuring to hear from an expert that Richard's death would have been relatively quick and, hopefully, he would not have suffered too long. Some of the wilder comments speculating on unlikely and extreme scenarios like that in the Telegraph by a science correspondent is publicity seeking and gratuitous. Their insensitivity wounds those of us who care about Richard and how he would have suffered, which is why some of the information coming from Leicester regarding how they intend to promote their good fortune leaves such an unpalatable taste in the mouth.
> Elaine
>
>
> --- In , "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> > have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> > He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> > Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> > The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> > The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> > Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> > Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> > Christine
> > Loyaulte me Lie
> >
>
----- Original Message -----
From: anitathehun
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
Please pardon a possibly stupid question from a "newbie"... but what is the "folder" where this information from Mr. Savage is posted? It would certainly be interesting to see the comments of a expert on this, considering some of the less expert speculation from journalists and others.
Best,
Anne
--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for this information, Christine. It's reassuring to hear from an expert that Richard's death would have been relatively quick and, hopefully, he would not have suffered too long. Some of the wilder comments speculating on unlikely and extreme scenarios like that in the Telegraph by a science correspondent is publicity seeking and gratuitous. Their insensitivity wounds those of us who care about Richard and how he would have suffered, which is why some of the information coming from Leicester regarding how they intend to promote their good fortune leaves such an unpalatable taste in the mouth.
> Elaine
>
>
> --- In , "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> > have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> > He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> > Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> > The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> > The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> > Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> > Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> > Christine
> > Loyaulte me Lie
> >
>
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 10:20:48
Ah, you were at the Armouries too? :-) I wonder how many people whose names I see on facebook or on here were?
--- On Fri, 3/5/13, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
From: christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...>
Subject: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
To:
Date: Friday, 3 May, 2013, 19:32
Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie
--- On Fri, 3/5/13, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
From: christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...>
Subject: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
To:
Date: Friday, 3 May, 2013, 19:32
Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 11:48:40
Claire.
Because he was still wearing his bevor and mail which would protect his throat, take it up with Bob Claire, he is the expert in this area.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie
--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> To:
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 7:32 PM
> Subject: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob
> Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
>
>
> > The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet
> > chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
>
> Hm, maybe, but then think about it practically. If you've got someone's
> helmet off - and you're right up close enough to take that helmet off - but
> they're still struggling and dangerous, and you don't want to kill them in
> any of the usual messy ways because you need them to stay recognisable, why
> *wouldn't* you cut their throat?
>
Because he was still wearing his bevor and mail which would protect his throat, take it up with Bob Claire, he is the expert in this area.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie
--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> To:
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 7:32 PM
> Subject: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob
> Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
>
>
> > The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet
> > chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
>
> Hm, maybe, but then think about it practically. If you've got someone's
> helmet off - and you're right up close enough to take that helmet off - but
> they're still struggling and dangerous, and you don't want to kill them in
> any of the usual messy ways because you need them to stay recognisable, why
> *wouldn't* you cut their throat?
>
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 11:53:53
Hi It's in the files on the forum web page.
Christine
--- In , "anitathehun" <friedaofalsace@...> wrote:
>
> Please pardon a possibly stupid question from a "newbie"... but what is the "folder" where this information from Mr. Savage is posted? It would certainly be interesting to see the comments of a expert on this, considering some of the less expert speculation from journalists and others.
>
> Best,
> Anne
>
> --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for this information, Christine. It's reassuring to hear from an expert that Richard's death would have been relatively quick and, hopefully, he would not have suffered too long. Some of the wilder comments speculating on unlikely and extreme scenarios like that in the Telegraph by a science correspondent is publicity seeking and gratuitous. Their insensitivity wounds those of us who care about Richard and how he would have suffered, which is why some of the information coming from Leicester regarding how they intend to promote their good fortune leaves such an unpalatable taste in the mouth.
> > Elaine
> >
> >
> > --- In , "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> > > have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> > > He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> > > Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> > > The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> > > The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> > > Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> > > Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> > > Christine
> > > Loyaulte me Lie
> > >
> >
>
Christine
--- In , "anitathehun" <friedaofalsace@...> wrote:
>
> Please pardon a possibly stupid question from a "newbie"... but what is the "folder" where this information from Mr. Savage is posted? It would certainly be interesting to see the comments of a expert on this, considering some of the less expert speculation from journalists and others.
>
> Best,
> Anne
>
> --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for this information, Christine. It's reassuring to hear from an expert that Richard's death would have been relatively quick and, hopefully, he would not have suffered too long. Some of the wilder comments speculating on unlikely and extreme scenarios like that in the Telegraph by a science correspondent is publicity seeking and gratuitous. Their insensitivity wounds those of us who care about Richard and how he would have suffered, which is why some of the information coming from Leicester regarding how they intend to promote their good fortune leaves such an unpalatable taste in the mouth.
> > Elaine
> >
> >
> > --- In , "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello All, I have put info from Bob re Richard's fatal wounds in folder.
> > > have heard him talk on Richard's wounds three times now, once at conference then in Leeds at Royal Armoury and last week at Yorkshire Branch lecture at Jacob's Well in York
> > > He is very interesting and has a great sense of humour, appropriately of course.
> > > Bob said it would have taken about three mins for Richard to be killed so he did not suffer too long.
> > > The other head wounds would have caused skin to flap and loss of blood.
> > > The one on Richard's chin he says is most probably when Richards helmet chin strap was cut and his helmet removed from behind.
> > > Bob says that Richard would have been surrounded.
> > > Hope this is helpful as there seems to be some odd ideas going around about these wounds.
> > > Christine
> > > Loyaulte me Lie
> > >
> >
>
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 17:39:26
"Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
> Hm, maybe, but then think about it practically. If you've got someone's helmet off - and you're right up close enough to take that helmet off - but they're still struggling and dangerous, and you don't want to kill them in any of the usual messy ways because you need them to stay recognisable, why *wouldn't* you cut their throat?
Carol responds:
All indications, both in the skeletal remains as analyzed (and, yes, I know that we haven't yet heard from the nonaffiliated experts) and in the (admittedly flawed) historical record is that he was killed by a blow to the head or the back of the skull. Had his throat been slit, we would have heard about it, just as we heard about the humiliation inflicted upon the dead king by parading him naked slung over a horse led by his own pursuivant. With all due respect, I ask that we avoid starting new legends with no more basis than a cut to the chin. We have enough to do battling the old ones.
Thank you.
Carol
> Hm, maybe, but then think about it practically. If you've got someone's helmet off - and you're right up close enough to take that helmet off - but they're still struggling and dangerous, and you don't want to kill them in any of the usual messy ways because you need them to stay recognisable, why *wouldn't* you cut their throat?
Carol responds:
All indications, both in the skeletal remains as analyzed (and, yes, I know that we haven't yet heard from the nonaffiliated experts) and in the (admittedly flawed) historical record is that he was killed by a blow to the head or the back of the skull. Had his throat been slit, we would have heard about it, just as we heard about the humiliation inflicted upon the dead king by parading him naked slung over a horse led by his own pursuivant. With all due respect, I ask that we avoid starting new legends with no more basis than a cut to the chin. We have enough to do battling the old ones.
Thank you.
Carol
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 18:15:28
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> All indications, both in the skeletal remains as analyzed (and, yes, I
> know that we haven't yet heard from the nonaffiliated experts) and in the
> (admittedly flawed) historical record is that he was killed by a blow to
> the head or the back of the skull. Had his throat been slit, we would have
> heard about it, just as we heard about the humiliation inflicted upon the
> dead king by parading him naked slung over a horse led by his own
> pursuivant. With all due respect, I ask that we avoid starting new legends
> with no more basis than a cut to the chin. We have enough to do battling
> the old ones.
I'm sorry if it dusturbs you, but I used to be into historical re-enactment
and I still know people who fight with these sorts of weapons, and your
scenario doesn't seem to make tactical sense. The blows to his head must
surely have been inflicted *after* his helmet was off - I don't think you'd
get the same effects if the blade had had to pass through sheet steel
first - so you have a scenario in which somebody goes right up to him to cut
his helmet straps and then other people are piling in raining blows and
risking hitting the strap cutter, or the strap cutter cuts the strap and
then backs away without finishing the job - why?
Plus, he would surely have to have been already beaten down and subdued *in
order* for somebody to get close enough to cut the straps, so then you have
a ferocious attack against somebody who is no longer a threat anyway and the
assumption that he would have to have been subdued enough for somebody to
cut his helmet off and yet be *still upright*, because the blows are on the
top of his head, not the side.
It makes more sense to me to think his helmet was struck off by a glancing
blow but he was still upright and swinging a weapon, then people piled in
and struck him down with several blows to the head, then once he was semi-
or un-conscious somebody finished him off.
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> All indications, both in the skeletal remains as analyzed (and, yes, I
> know that we haven't yet heard from the nonaffiliated experts) and in the
> (admittedly flawed) historical record is that he was killed by a blow to
> the head or the back of the skull. Had his throat been slit, we would have
> heard about it, just as we heard about the humiliation inflicted upon the
> dead king by parading him naked slung over a horse led by his own
> pursuivant. With all due respect, I ask that we avoid starting new legends
> with no more basis than a cut to the chin. We have enough to do battling
> the old ones.
I'm sorry if it dusturbs you, but I used to be into historical re-enactment
and I still know people who fight with these sorts of weapons, and your
scenario doesn't seem to make tactical sense. The blows to his head must
surely have been inflicted *after* his helmet was off - I don't think you'd
get the same effects if the blade had had to pass through sheet steel
first - so you have a scenario in which somebody goes right up to him to cut
his helmet straps and then other people are piling in raining blows and
risking hitting the strap cutter, or the strap cutter cuts the strap and
then backs away without finishing the job - why?
Plus, he would surely have to have been already beaten down and subdued *in
order* for somebody to get close enough to cut the straps, so then you have
a ferocious attack against somebody who is no longer a threat anyway and the
assumption that he would have to have been subdued enough for somebody to
cut his helmet off and yet be *still upright*, because the blows are on the
top of his head, not the side.
It makes more sense to me to think his helmet was struck off by a glancing
blow but he was still upright and swinging a weapon, then people piled in
and struck him down with several blows to the head, then once he was semi-
or un-conscious somebody finished him off.
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 18:49:38
From: Claire M Jordan
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> then once he was semi-
or un-conscious somebody finished him off.
Of course the cut on his jaw could have happened post-mortem when they were
cutting the straps on the rest of his armour - but there's also a cut up the
side of his chin, right where you'd expect one to be if somebody stuck a
knife under the point of his jaw and drew it round to the front.
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> then once he was semi-
or un-conscious somebody finished him off.
Of course the cut on his jaw could have happened post-mortem when they were
cutting the straps on the rest of his armour - but there's also a cut up the
side of his chin, right where you'd expect one to be if somebody stuck a
knife under the point of his jaw and drew it round to the front.
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 19:03:20
I know it's important to discuss it, but Richard's death is something I find hard to deal with. The thought, stated elsewhere, that it may have taken three minutes for him to finally succumb seems a very long time to me. What if he was, after all, conscious for most of it? Absolutely terrible to think of. I hope it turns out that he had one almighty clout on the head and that was the instant end of it.
Sandra
Sandra
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 19:26:53
From: SandraMachin
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> I know it's important to discuss it, but Richard's death is something I
> find hard to deal with. The thought, stated elsewhere, that it may have
> taken three minutes for him to finally succumb seems a very long time to
> me. What if he was, after all, conscious for most of it? Absolutely
> terrible to think of. I hope it turns out that he had one almighty clout
> on the head and that was the instant end of it.
Three minutes *is* a long time if you're in pain - but he very possibly
wasn't. A lot of people who've been injured in situations where they were
very hyped up on adrenalin report that they didn't feel pain from the injury
at the time - it's only afterwards that it starts to hurt, but he didn't
have to suffer an afterwards. He was probably just concentrating on doing
as much damage to his opponents as possible.
He may even have enjoyed it - the way his life had been going, I imagine
having a cast iron excuse to belt people with an axe would have been a great
tension-reliever.
I would find it much more upsetting if he'd survived and then died of his
wounds later, because then he *would* have been in severe pain :(
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> I know it's important to discuss it, but Richard's death is something I
> find hard to deal with. The thought, stated elsewhere, that it may have
> taken three minutes for him to finally succumb seems a very long time to
> me. What if he was, after all, conscious for most of it? Absolutely
> terrible to think of. I hope it turns out that he had one almighty clout
> on the head and that was the instant end of it.
Three minutes *is* a long time if you're in pain - but he very possibly
wasn't. A lot of people who've been injured in situations where they were
very hyped up on adrenalin report that they didn't feel pain from the injury
at the time - it's only afterwards that it starts to hurt, but he didn't
have to suffer an afterwards. He was probably just concentrating on doing
as much damage to his opponents as possible.
He may even have enjoyed it - the way his life had been going, I imagine
having a cast iron excuse to belt people with an axe would have been a great
tension-reliever.
I would find it much more upsetting if he'd survived and then died of his
wounds later, because then he *would* have been in severe pain :(
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 22:49:28
From: Claire M Jordan
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> He may even have enjoyed it - the way his life had been going, I imagine
having a cast iron excuse to belt people with an axe would have been a great
tension-reliever.
The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that he *was*
enjoying himself, because the bouncy enthusiasm with which he told von
Poppelau he'd like to be on the border of Christendom repelling the Turks
suggests that, like many young men, he rather liked a fight.
My mate Dee - the guy with scoliosis - got into a fight about a year ago and
was thrown down some steps. It wasn't his fault, he was heavily
outnumbered, he lost and he was beaten up so badly that he had to be taken
to hospital for observation, and his back was in spasm for weeks afterwards.
But when he told me about it, his summary of the fight was "It was *great*!"
If he had landed badly and broken his skull on the steps, as he easily could
have done, he would have died very happy.
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> He may even have enjoyed it - the way his life had been going, I imagine
having a cast iron excuse to belt people with an axe would have been a great
tension-reliever.
The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that he *was*
enjoying himself, because the bouncy enthusiasm with which he told von
Poppelau he'd like to be on the border of Christendom repelling the Turks
suggests that, like many young men, he rather liked a fight.
My mate Dee - the guy with scoliosis - got into a fight about a year ago and
was thrown down some steps. It wasn't his fault, he was heavily
outnumbered, he lost and he was beaten up so badly that he had to be taken
to hospital for observation, and his back was in spasm for weeks afterwards.
But when he told me about it, his summary of the fight was "It was *great*!"
If he had landed badly and broken his skull on the steps, as he easily could
have done, he would have died very happy.
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-04 22:53:59
Hi, Claire
Great story! That's a typical guy-thing I would say. In Richard's case, I think he'd been wound tight as a drum for some time and perhaps not knowing which snake in the grass would strike next. So the prospect of meeting his nemesis in open battle was no doubt a relief, win or lose.
Glad your fellow was okay!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Claire M Jordan
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 6:51 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
From: Claire M Jordan
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> He may even have enjoyed it - the way his life had been going, I imagine
having a cast iron excuse to belt people with an axe would have been a great
tension-reliever.
The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that he *was*
enjoying himself, because the bouncy enthusiasm with which he told von
Poppelau he'd like to be on the border of Christendom repelling the Turks
suggests that, like many young men, he rather liked a fight.
My mate Dee - the guy with scoliosis - got into a fight about a year ago and
was thrown down some steps. It wasn't his fault, he was heavily
outnumbered, he lost and he was beaten up so badly that he had to be taken
to hospital for observation, and his back was in spasm for weeks afterwards.
But when he told me about it, his summary of the fight was "It was *great*!"
If he had landed badly and broken his skull on the steps, as he easily could
have done, he would have died very happy.
Great story! That's a typical guy-thing I would say. In Richard's case, I think he'd been wound tight as a drum for some time and perhaps not knowing which snake in the grass would strike next. So the prospect of meeting his nemesis in open battle was no doubt a relief, win or lose.
Glad your fellow was okay!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Claire M Jordan
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 6:51 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
From: Claire M Jordan
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> He may even have enjoyed it - the way his life had been going, I imagine
having a cast iron excuse to belt people with an axe would have been a great
tension-reliever.
The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that he *was*
enjoying himself, because the bouncy enthusiasm with which he told von
Poppelau he'd like to be on the border of Christendom repelling the Turks
suggests that, like many young men, he rather liked a fight.
My mate Dee - the guy with scoliosis - got into a fight about a year ago and
was thrown down some steps. It wasn't his fault, he was heavily
outnumbered, he lost and he was beaten up so badly that he had to be taken
to hospital for observation, and his back was in spasm for weeks afterwards.
But when he told me about it, his summary of the fight was "It was *great*!"
If he had landed badly and broken his skull on the steps, as he easily could
have done, he would have died very happy.
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-05 02:12:22
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> Great story! That's a typical guy-thing I would say. In Richard's case,
> I think he'd been wound tight as a drum for some time and perhaps not
> knowing which snake in the grass would strike next. So the prospect of
> meeting his nemesis in open battle was no doubt a relief, win or lose.
Yes. I don't think he was actually suicidal, but he'd had enough and he
wanted an end in that sort of Kipling-esque way - to "put it to the touch to
win or lose it all". He was looking to win, not to die, but either way he
wanted an end to all the stress. Given his bouncy enthusiasm for fighting
the Turks I suspect that in that final struggle he was, in rather dark way,
as high as a kite: even shouting "Treason!" was probably a
situation-specific variant on a theme of "I'm going to nail you bastards!"
There may well have been an "Oh shit!" moment when he realised he was going
to lose - but that was probably only a few seconds before he died, and it
wouldn't necessarily stop it from being fun anyway.
> Glad your fellow was okay!
Myself and some of his other friends had a hairy few days because we all
live in different towns, and all we'd heard was that he'd been carted off to
hospital after this fight, and then we didn't hear from him for several
days - in fact because his back had locked up so badly he couldn't get out
of bed to fetch his 'phone, but meanwhile we were ringing round all the
hospitals in Harrogate to see if he was in traction somewhere.
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> Great story! That's a typical guy-thing I would say. In Richard's case,
> I think he'd been wound tight as a drum for some time and perhaps not
> knowing which snake in the grass would strike next. So the prospect of
> meeting his nemesis in open battle was no doubt a relief, win or lose.
Yes. I don't think he was actually suicidal, but he'd had enough and he
wanted an end in that sort of Kipling-esque way - to "put it to the touch to
win or lose it all". He was looking to win, not to die, but either way he
wanted an end to all the stress. Given his bouncy enthusiasm for fighting
the Turks I suspect that in that final struggle he was, in rather dark way,
as high as a kite: even shouting "Treason!" was probably a
situation-specific variant on a theme of "I'm going to nail you bastards!"
There may well have been an "Oh shit!" moment when he realised he was going
to lose - but that was probably only a few seconds before he died, and it
wouldn't necessarily stop it from being fun anyway.
> Glad your fellow was okay!
Myself and some of his other friends had a hairy few days because we all
live in different towns, and all we'd heard was that he'd been carted off to
hospital after this fight, and then we didn't hear from him for several
days - in fact because his back had locked up so badly he couldn't get out
of bed to fetch his 'phone, but meanwhile we were ringing round all the
hospitals in Harrogate to see if he was in traction somewhere.
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-05 13:11:19
Hello All It does not seem to have occurred to anyone that Richard may have been on his knees trying to get up when he was attacked.
Bob Woosnam Savage does know what he is talking about, he also says that he has had some strange ideas from battle reenactors which I won't go into now.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie
--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
> Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
>
>
> > All indications, both in the skeletal remains as analyzed (and, yes, I
> > know that we haven't yet heard from the nonaffiliated experts) and in the
> > (admittedly flawed) historical record is that he was killed by a blow to
> > the head or the back of the skull. Had his throat been slit, we would have
> > heard about it, just as we heard about the humiliation inflicted upon the
> > dead king by parading him naked slung over a horse led by his own
> > pursuivant. With all due respect, I ask that we avoid starting new legends
> > with no more basis than a cut to the chin. We have enough to do battling
> > the old ones.
>
> I'm sorry if it dusturbs you, but I used to be into historical re-enactment
> and I still know people who fight with these sorts of weapons, and your
> scenario doesn't seem to make tactical sense. The blows to his head must
> surely have been inflicted *after* his helmet was off - I don't think you'd
> get the same effects if the blade had had to pass through sheet steel
> first - so you have a scenario in which somebody goes right up to him to cut
> his helmet straps and then other people are piling in raining blows and
> risking hitting the strap cutter, or the strap cutter cuts the strap and
> then backs away without finishing the job - why?
>
> Plus, he would surely have to have been already beaten down and subdued *in
> order* for somebody to get close enough to cut the straps, so then you have
> a ferocious attack against somebody who is no longer a threat anyway and the
> assumption that he would have to have been subdued enough for somebody to
> cut his helmet off and yet be *still upright*, because the blows are on the
> top of his head, not the side.
>
> It makes more sense to me to think his helmet was struck off by a glancing
> blow but he was still upright and swinging a weapon, then people piled in
> and struck him down with several blows to the head, then once he was semi-
> or un-conscious somebody finished him off.
>
Bob Woosnam Savage does know what he is talking about, he also says that he has had some strange ideas from battle reenactors which I won't go into now.
Christine
Loyaulte me Lie
--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
> Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
>
>
> > All indications, both in the skeletal remains as analyzed (and, yes, I
> > know that we haven't yet heard from the nonaffiliated experts) and in the
> > (admittedly flawed) historical record is that he was killed by a blow to
> > the head or the back of the skull. Had his throat been slit, we would have
> > heard about it, just as we heard about the humiliation inflicted upon the
> > dead king by parading him naked slung over a horse led by his own
> > pursuivant. With all due respect, I ask that we avoid starting new legends
> > with no more basis than a cut to the chin. We have enough to do battling
> > the old ones.
>
> I'm sorry if it dusturbs you, but I used to be into historical re-enactment
> and I still know people who fight with these sorts of weapons, and your
> scenario doesn't seem to make tactical sense. The blows to his head must
> surely have been inflicted *after* his helmet was off - I don't think you'd
> get the same effects if the blade had had to pass through sheet steel
> first - so you have a scenario in which somebody goes right up to him to cut
> his helmet straps and then other people are piling in raining blows and
> risking hitting the strap cutter, or the strap cutter cuts the strap and
> then backs away without finishing the job - why?
>
> Plus, he would surely have to have been already beaten down and subdued *in
> order* for somebody to get close enough to cut the straps, so then you have
> a ferocious attack against somebody who is no longer a threat anyway and the
> assumption that he would have to have been subdued enough for somebody to
> cut his helmet off and yet be *still upright*, because the blows are on the
> top of his head, not the side.
>
> It makes more sense to me to think his helmet was struck off by a glancing
> blow but he was still upright and swinging a weapon, then people piled in
> and struck him down with several blows to the head, then once he was semi-
> or un-conscious somebody finished him off.
>
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-05 13:46:40
From: christineholmes651@...
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> Hello All It does not seem to have occurred to anyone that Richard may
> have been on his knees trying to get up when he was attacked.
Of course it has, but it doesn't make any difference. If somebody was so
close to him that they could cut his helmet-strap with a knife - and he was
subdued/concussed enough that that was possibly without beign killed by
him - why would they then back off and leave other people to hit him over
the head - or put the knife away and reach for some other weapon - instead
of just killing him while they had a knife right by his jaw? All it would
take to kill him would be to finish the gesture by sticking the knife in
under his ear, and a soldier would almost certainly know that.
It's not impossible that somebody cut his helmet strap, took his helmet off
and then for some reason walked away and left other people to hit him over
the head, even though he was kneeling down, helmetless and probably already
disarmed (since somebody had been able to get close enough to cut his
straps) - but if so it's pretty damned odd.
> Bob Woosnam Savage does know what he is talking about, he also says that
> he has had some strange ideas from battle reenactors
For "reenactors" read "People who have actually fought with these weapons
first hand as opposed to just reading about other people doing it".
Don't forget that about three years ago a team of top archaeologists spent
days or weeks examining a WotR casualty with little cuts around his eye
socket, and reconstructing this as a scene of brutal torture of a fallen
Lancastrian knight by Yorkist forces, before the penny finally dropped and
they realised he'd been stabbed through his visor.
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> Hello All It does not seem to have occurred to anyone that Richard may
> have been on his knees trying to get up when he was attacked.
Of course it has, but it doesn't make any difference. If somebody was so
close to him that they could cut his helmet-strap with a knife - and he was
subdued/concussed enough that that was possibly without beign killed by
him - why would they then back off and leave other people to hit him over
the head - or put the knife away and reach for some other weapon - instead
of just killing him while they had a knife right by his jaw? All it would
take to kill him would be to finish the gesture by sticking the knife in
under his ear, and a soldier would almost certainly know that.
It's not impossible that somebody cut his helmet strap, took his helmet off
and then for some reason walked away and left other people to hit him over
the head, even though he was kneeling down, helmetless and probably already
disarmed (since somebody had been able to get close enough to cut his
straps) - but if so it's pretty damned odd.
> Bob Woosnam Savage does know what he is talking about, he also says that
> he has had some strange ideas from battle reenactors
For "reenactors" read "People who have actually fought with these weapons
first hand as opposed to just reading about other people doing it".
Don't forget that about three years ago a team of top archaeologists spent
days or weeks examining a WotR casualty with little cuts around his eye
socket, and reconstructing this as a scene of brutal torture of a fallen
Lancastrian knight by Yorkist forces, before the penny finally dropped and
they realised he'd been stabbed through his visor.
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-05 17:03:28
> For "reenactors" read "People who have actually fought with these weapons
> first hand as opposed to just reading about other people doing it".
A-yep. One of my friends has done this for over thirty years as a part of the Barony of Settmour Swamp (a SCA branch in Northern New Jersey:
http://eastkingdomgazette.org/tag/settmour-swamp/ )
> Don't forget that about three years ago a team of top archaeologists spent
> days or weeks examining a WotR casualty with little cuts around his eye
> socket, and reconstructing this as a scene of brutal torture of a fallen
> Lancastrian knight by Yorkist forces, before the penny finally dropped and
> they realised he'd been stabbed through his visor.
One of the things I've learned in my admittedly brief perusal of European fighting on horseback is that the slash turned out to be nowhere nearly as efficient
as the stab. This held true right up to the 19th century -- Napoleon exhorted his soldiers "Don't cut! The point! The point!"
The American general George Patton was Master of the Sword of the US Army in the pre-World-War-One era, and studied with his French counterpart to create what experts would call the best cavalry saber ever created -- light, ergonomic, deadly. It looks like a glorified rotisserie skewer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1913_Cavalry_Saber
-----Original Message-----
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To: <>
Sent: Sun, May 5, 2013 7:46 am
Subject: Re: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
From: christineholmes651@...
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> Hello All It does not seem to have occurred to anyone that Richard may
> have been on his knees trying to get up when he was attacked.
Of course it has, but it doesn't make any difference. If somebody was so
close to him that they could cut his helmet-strap with a knife - and he was
subdued/concussed enough that that was possibly without beign killed by
him - why would they then back off and leave other people to hit him over
the head - or put the knife away and reach for some other weapon - instead
of just killing him while they had a knife right by his jaw? All it would
take to kill him would be to finish the gesture by sticking the knife in
under his ear, and a soldier would almost certainly know that.
It's not impossible that somebody cut his helmet strap, took his helmet off
and then for some reason walked away and left other people to hit him over
the head, even though he was kneeling down, helmetless and probably already
disarmed (since somebody had been able to get close enough to cut his
straps) - but if so it's pretty damned odd.
> Bob Woosnam Savage does know what he is talking about, he also says that
> he has had some strange ideas from battle reenactors
For "reenactors" read "People who have actually fought with these weapons
first hand as opposed to just reading about other people doing it".
Don't forget that about three years ago a team of top archaeologists spent
days or weeks examining a WotR casualty with little cuts around his eye
socket, and reconstructing this as a scene of brutal torture of a fallen
Lancastrian knight by Yorkist forces, before the penny finally dropped and
they realised he'd been stabbed through his visor.
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
> first hand as opposed to just reading about other people doing it".
A-yep. One of my friends has done this for over thirty years as a part of the Barony of Settmour Swamp (a SCA branch in Northern New Jersey:
http://eastkingdomgazette.org/tag/settmour-swamp/ )
> Don't forget that about three years ago a team of top archaeologists spent
> days or weeks examining a WotR casualty with little cuts around his eye
> socket, and reconstructing this as a scene of brutal torture of a fallen
> Lancastrian knight by Yorkist forces, before the penny finally dropped and
> they realised he'd been stabbed through his visor.
One of the things I've learned in my admittedly brief perusal of European fighting on horseback is that the slash turned out to be nowhere nearly as efficient
as the stab. This held true right up to the 19th century -- Napoleon exhorted his soldiers "Don't cut! The point! The point!"
The American general George Patton was Master of the Sword of the US Army in the pre-World-War-One era, and studied with his French counterpart to create what experts would call the best cavalry saber ever created -- light, ergonomic, deadly. It looks like a glorified rotisserie skewer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1913_Cavalry_Saber
-----Original Message-----
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To: <>
Sent: Sun, May 5, 2013 7:46 am
Subject: Re: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
From: christineholmes651@...
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by
Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal Armoury
> Hello All It does not seem to have occurred to anyone that Richard may
> have been on his knees trying to get up when he was attacked.
Of course it has, but it doesn't make any difference. If somebody was so
close to him that they could cut his helmet-strap with a knife - and he was
subdued/concussed enough that that was possibly without beign killed by
him - why would they then back off and leave other people to hit him over
the head - or put the knife away and reach for some other weapon - instead
of just killing him while they had a knife right by his jaw? All it would
take to kill him would be to finish the gesture by sticking the knife in
under his ear, and a soldier would almost certainly know that.
It's not impossible that somebody cut his helmet strap, took his helmet off
and then for some reason walked away and left other people to hit him over
the head, even though he was kneeling down, helmetless and probably already
disarmed (since somebody had been able to get close enough to cut his
straps) - but if so it's pretty damned odd.
> Bob Woosnam Savage does know what he is talking about, he also says that
> he has had some strange ideas from battle reenactors
For "reenactors" read "People who have actually fought with these weapons
first hand as opposed to just reading about other people doing it".
Don't forget that about three years ago a team of top archaeologists spent
days or weeks examining a WotR casualty with little cuts around his eye
socket, and reconstructing this as a scene of brutal torture of a fallen
Lancastrian knight by Yorkist forces, before the penny finally dropped and
they realised he'd been stabbed through his visor.
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Richard's fatal wounds from talk by Bob Woosnam Savage of Royal
2013-05-06 01:30:12
I agree with you Sandra. Those three minutes were three minutes too long.
Lets stay with head injury for now. Unless proven otherwise by an expert.
Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad
On May 4, 2013, at 2:03 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> I know it's important to discuss it, but Richard's death is something I find hard to deal with. The thought, stated elsewhere, that it may have taken three minutes for him to finally succumb seems a very long time to me. What if he was, after all, conscious for most of it? Absolutely terrible to think of. I hope it turns out that he had one almighty clout on the head and that was the instant end of it.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
Lets stay with head injury for now. Unless proven otherwise by an expert.
Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad
On May 4, 2013, at 2:03 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> I know it's important to discuss it, but Richard's death is something I find hard to deal with. The thought, stated elsewhere, that it may have taken three minutes for him to finally succumb seems a very long time to me. What if he was, after all, conscious for most of it? Absolutely terrible to think of. I hope it turns out that he had one almighty clout on the head and that was the instant end of it.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
Re: Richard's portraits
2013-05-10 12:48:47
Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldn't it be pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
Sandra
Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
Sandra
Re: Richard's portraits
2013-05-10 12:54:26
I've wondered (hoped?) the same thing.
A J
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 6:48 AM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original
> portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they
> were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been
> thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldnýt it be
> pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be
> discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted
> from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits
> were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened
> to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself
> has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
>
> Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
A J
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 6:48 AM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original
> portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they
> were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been
> thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldnýt it be
> pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be
> discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted
> from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits
> were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened
> to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself
> has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
>
> Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Richard's portraits
2013-05-10 13:07:49
Hi again, Sandra!
I think that is an eminently reasonable suggestion. I am more familiar with American cinema of the Golden Age of Film, and I can tell you that lost films are found all the time, often in dusty archives in Europe, but also in the archives and storage warehouses of the studios themselves. If it is possible to lose and then recover a film from perhaps 60-100 years ago, doesn't it make even more sense that a modest-sized portrait might be squirreled away somewhere, in the Prado or the Escorial perhaps . . . What a thought!
Another thing, many pictures over the centuries have been painted over, so it is also possible that there may be an original somewhere which has been re-used and the original image thus concealed.
It's a thought to conjure with!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
PS It would be interesting to know if there are any examples of similar portraits of the period, whether in England, Spain or Portugal (or France, or Bohemia?) that may have been discovered in the last 100 years or so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of SandraMachin
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 8:49 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Richard's portraits
Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldn't it be pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
Sandra
I think that is an eminently reasonable suggestion. I am more familiar with American cinema of the Golden Age of Film, and I can tell you that lost films are found all the time, often in dusty archives in Europe, but also in the archives and storage warehouses of the studios themselves. If it is possible to lose and then recover a film from perhaps 60-100 years ago, doesn't it make even more sense that a modest-sized portrait might be squirreled away somewhere, in the Prado or the Escorial perhaps . . . What a thought!
Another thing, many pictures over the centuries have been painted over, so it is also possible that there may be an original somewhere which has been re-used and the original image thus concealed.
It's a thought to conjure with!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
PS It would be interesting to know if there are any examples of similar portraits of the period, whether in England, Spain or Portugal (or France, or Bohemia?) that may have been discovered in the last 100 years or so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of SandraMachin
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 8:49 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Richard's portraits
Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldn't it be pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
Sandra
Re: Richard's portraits
2013-05-10 13:29:49
From: SandraMachin
To:
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's portraits
> Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
No, that's perfectly reasonable. If it wasn't by a well-known artist, and
didn't have "Richard III" actually painted into it, it would end up in
somebody's attic labelled "portrait of an unknown 15th C nobleman".
To:
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's portraits
> Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
No, that's perfectly reasonable. If it wasn't by a well-known artist, and
didn't have "Richard III" actually painted into it, it would end up in
somebody's attic labelled "portrait of an unknown 15th C nobleman".
Re: Richard's portraits
2013-05-10 13:38:43
Have any others been found from around the same time?
On May 10, 2013, at 6:54 AM, "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
> I've wondered (hoped?) the same thing.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 6:48 AM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original
>> portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they
>> were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been
>> thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldn't it be
>> pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be
>> discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted
>> from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits
>> were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened
>> to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself
>> has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
>>
>> Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
On May 10, 2013, at 6:54 AM, "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
> I've wondered (hoped?) the same thing.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 6:48 AM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original
>> portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they
>> were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been
>> thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldn't it be
>> pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be
>> discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted
>> from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits
>> were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened
>> to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself
>> has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
>>
>> Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: Richard's portraits
2013-05-10 17:58:59
I was thinking about this in the shower the other day. My sad thought was that someone(s) recycled the wood and painted over Richard.
--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldn’t it be pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
>
> Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
>
> Sandra
--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Might it be possible that somewhere on the continent one of the original portraits of Richard might still be hidden away? A long shot, but if they were actually sent to the prospective bride/s, would they simply have been thrown away after Bosworth? Or just stored somewhere? Wouldn’t it be pleasant to think that in a dusty, almost forgotten corner, waiting to be discovered, catalogued and so on, is a portrait of him actually painted from life? Stranger things have happened. Or, of course, these portraits were never sent. Even so, if there was at least one to copy, what happened to it? You get a strange feeling sometimes, that just as Richard himself has been reclaimed, so too might be that elusive original likeness.
>
> Or is this just me letting my imagination run off with me?
>
> Sandra
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