Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-19 21:39:20
Does anyone know?
Yes there is a catch!! H
Yes there is a catch!! H
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-19 23:43:09
Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
Marie
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know?
> Yes there is a catch!! H
>
Marie
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know?
> Yes there is a catch!! H
>
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-20 09:12:43
Thanks a million. I knew you'd know if anyone. We don't hear mcuh of him do we?
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 19 May 2013, 23:43
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
Marie
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know?
> Yes there is a catch!! H
>
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 19 May 2013, 23:43
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
Marie
--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know?
> Yes there is a catch!! H
>
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-20 13:37:54
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
Woodville?
> Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
Marie
Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
Eboracum is York.
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
Woodville?
> Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
Marie
Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
Eboracum is York.
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-20 13:45:45
He is a well known preacher. Yes he came from Yorkshire but died conveniently soon after the marriage (naturally). What he would have been doing in Grafton Regis who knows?
________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 20 May 2013, 11:48
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
Woodville?
> Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
Marie
Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
Eboracum is York.
________________________________
From: Claire M Jordan <whitehound@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 20 May 2013, 11:48
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
Woodville?
> Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
Marie
Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
Eboracum is York.
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-20 15:40:43
From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and
Elizabeth Woodville?
> He is a well known preacher. Yes he came from Yorkshire
OK, so Eborall probably does mean "Of York", but by that point it was
probably a genuine inherited surname, not a nickname. Still, I bet Edward
thought choosing a priest with that name to marry him was cute.
To:
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and
Elizabeth Woodville?
> He is a well known preacher. Yes he came from Yorkshire
OK, so Eborall probably does mean "Of York", but by that point it was
probably a genuine inherited surname, not a nickname. Still, I bet Edward
thought choosing a priest with that name to marry him was cute.
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-21 19:10:20
--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> Woodville?
>
>
> > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> Marie
>
> Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> Eboracum is York.
>
Marie replies:
Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
"About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
"Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
Reference:E 163/29/11"
Two interesting things:
1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
Marie
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> Woodville?
>
>
> > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> Marie
>
> Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> Eboracum is York.
>
Marie replies:
Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
"About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
"Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
Reference:E 163/29/11"
Two interesting things:
1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
Marie
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-21 19:30:40
Now this is interesting Marie because there is a well-documented Dr Thomas Eborall who I thought you were referring to who hails from York (down the road from Stillington and Ingleby), was a well-known preacher (probably a Lollard) and then Principal of Whittington College in London and died circa 1464. I thought you meant him. I know Paulerspury and I know Grafton Regis and they are what about ten miles apart. I also know Newham, which is near me, 30 odd miles from Grafton Regis, near Ashby St Ledgers (Catesby land) but hang on, this date range is from 1485. I've just looked at the NA and there is a Robert Catesby extant until around 1454 and the another one appears after 1490. Yet more digging methinks!! Thanks Hicks.
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> Woodville?
>
>
> > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> Marie
>
> Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> Eboracum is York.
>
Marie replies:
Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
"About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
"Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
Reference:E 163/29/11"
Two interesting things:
1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
Marie
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> Woodville?
>
>
> > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> Marie
>
> Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> Eboracum is York.
>
Marie replies:
Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
"About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
"Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
Reference:E 163/29/11"
Two interesting things:
1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
Marie
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-21 19:46:36
Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigate
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> Woodville?
>
>
> > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> Marie
>
> Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> Eboracum is York.
>
Marie replies:
Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
"About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
"Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
Reference:E 163/29/11"
Two interesting things:
1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
Marie
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> Woodville?
>
>
> > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> Marie
>
> Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> Eboracum is York.
>
Marie replies:
Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
"About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
"Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
Reference:E 163/29/11"
Two interesting things:
1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
Marie
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-21 20:00:05
And there's a quitclaim to John Eborall in Towcester in 1451 so ,,,, still looking
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> Woodville?
>
>
> > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> Marie
>
> Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> Eboracum is York.
>
Marie replies:
Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
"About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
"Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
Reference:E 163/29/11"
Two interesting things:
1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
Marie
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> Woodville?
>
>
> > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> Marie
>
> Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> Eboracum is York.
>
Marie replies:
Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
"About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
"Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
Reference:E 163/29/11"
Two interesting things:
1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
Marie
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-21 20:53:42
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-21 21:29:51
My Dr Thomas who was Rector of Kirkdeighton, Principal of Whittington College and suspected Lollard.
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-22 02:15:54
There is quite a bit about Dr Thomas Eborall in this article:
J.A.F.
Thomson, The Continuation of 'Gregory's Chronicle': A Possible Author?', The British Museum Quarterly, Vol. 36, No. 3/4
(Autumn, 1972), pp. 92-97
Cheers,
Dorothea
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
My Dr Thomas who was Rector of Kirkdeighton, Principal of Whittington College and suspected Lollard.
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
J.A.F.
Thomson, The Continuation of 'Gregory's Chronicle': A Possible Author?', The British Museum Quarterly, Vol. 36, No. 3/4
(Autumn, 1972), pp. 92-97
Cheers,
Dorothea
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
My Dr Thomas who was Rector of Kirkdeighton, Principal of Whittington College and suspected Lollard.
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-22 09:46:05
Thanks Dorothea. I shall pursue. H. (Yes I came across him in connection with Greogory before but couldn't open that one.)
________________________________
From: Dorothea Preis <dorotheapreis@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013, 2:15
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
There is quite a bit about Dr Thomas Eborall in this article:
J.A.F.
Thomson, The Continuation of 'Gregory's Chronicle': A Possible Author?', The British Museum Quarterly, Vol. 36, No. 3/4
(Autumn, 1972), pp. 92-97
Cheers,
Dorothea
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
My Dr Thomas who was Rector of Kirkdeighton, Principal of Whittington College and suspected Lollard.
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Dorothea Preis <dorotheapreis@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013, 2:15
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
There is quite a bit about Dr Thomas Eborall in this article:
J.A.F.
Thomson, The Continuation of 'Gregory's Chronicle': A Possible Author?', The British Museum Quarterly, Vol. 36, No. 3/4
(Autumn, 1972), pp. 92-97
Cheers,
Dorothea
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
My Dr Thomas who was Rector of Kirkdeighton, Principal of Whittington College and suspected Lollard.
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-22 09:49:23
If you have problems, let me know I can send you a copy.
Cheers, Dorothea
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Thanks Dorothea. I shall pursue. H. (Yes I came across him in connection with Greogory before but couldn't open that one.)
________________________________
From: Dorothea Preis <dorotheapreis@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013, 2:15
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
There is quite a bit about Dr Thomas Eborall in this article:
J.A.F.
Thomson, The Continuation of 'Gregory's Chronicle': A Possible Author?', The British Museum Quarterly, Vol. 36, No. 3/4
(Autumn, 1972), pp. 92-97
Cheers,
Dorothea
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
My Dr Thomas who was Rector of Kirkdeighton, Principal of Whittington College and suspected Lollard.
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Cheers, Dorothea
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Thanks Dorothea. I shall pursue. H. (Yes I came across him in connection with Greogory before but couldn't open that one.)
________________________________
From: Dorothea Preis <dorotheapreis@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013, 2:15
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
There is quite a bit about Dr Thomas Eborall in this article:
J.A.F.
Thomson, The Continuation of 'Gregory's Chronicle': A Possible Author?', The British Museum Quarterly, Vol. 36, No. 3/4
(Autumn, 1972), pp. 92-97
Cheers,
Dorothea
________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
My Dr Thomas who was Rector of Kirkdeighton, Principal of Whittington College and suspected Lollard.
________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Sorry, who is the second?
Marie
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Have just discovered Robert Catesby of Newnham died in 1467 (brass in church) - so this could be true or Hicks's dates wrong. Strange there were two preachers called Eborall; shall continue to investigateÂ
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-22 11:06:54
I've looked on National Archives web and can't find Hick's document but John Eborall was dead by July 1471 and guess who his great friend was? A certain gentleman sievemaker called Mr Peter Empson of Towcester, the father of one Richard Empson and friend of Reggie Bray.
Oh what a tangled web!:)
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> And there's a quitclaim to John Eborall in Towcester in 1451 so ,,,, still looking
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Oh what a tangled web!:)
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> And there's a quitclaim to John Eborall in Towcester in 1451 so ,,,, still looking
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 19:10
> Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@> wrote:
> >
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth
> > Woodville?
> >
> >
> > > Dr Eborall seemingly claimed the credit. But it's rather odd because
> > > clandestine marriages didn't usually involve a priest and according to
> > > Titulus Regius they were married in "a profane place"
> > Marie
> >
> > Is it absolutely certain that Eborall was a real name and not somebody's
> > alias? Is he known from other sources under that name? If it's a real name
> > it's either a thundering coincidence or Edward picked him as a joke -
> > Eboracum is York.
> >
>
> Marie replies:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
>
> Now it gets quite interesting, because Hicks gives his source as "PRO E 163/29/11, indicated to me my Prof. Rawcliffe, who kindly supplied me with a transcript". Now, if you go to the PRO (now National Archives) catalogue, you get this description of E 163/29/11:-
>
> "Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII
> Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Miscellanea of the Exchequer. CATESBY PAPERS. Account of Catesby lawsuit, Hen VI-Hen VII. ^^ Edition 'A Catesby Lawsuit' ed M M Condon and C Rawcliffe, forthcoming.
> Collection: Records of the Exchequer, and its related bodies, with those of the Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
> Date range: 22 August 1485 - 21 April 1509
> Reference:E 163/29/11"
>
> Two interesting things:
> 1) Although the date range for the lawsuit is given as HVI-HVII, the date range given for the document is just Henry VII's reign
> 2) Carole Rawcliffe and Margaret Condon are intending to publish an edition of this document!
>
> I know I've seen references to the surname Eborall before (Patent Rolls, perhaps?) but I've never tried to put together a biography of Mr John - if he'd really married the King and Queen you'd expect it would have made a noticeable difference to his career, for instance.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-24 16:20:13
Marie wrote:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
[snip]
Carol responds:
Don't know if this is any help, but there are two references to him as a clerk in "A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds" (British History Online). The first is dated the last day of March in the eighth year of Edward IV (1469?):
"A. 8472. Counterpart indenture, being a feoffment by John Eborall, clerk, William Twyktwyn, chaplain, John Wylkokes and Simon Mounceux, to Oliver Grymbald, of Little Eversdon, co. Cambridge, 'gentelman,' of the lands &c. late John Creton's in the towns and fields of Little Creton, Sprotton and elsewhere, which they had by the feoffment of William, abbot of St. James next Northampton and the convent of the same; rendering for the first seven years following 5l. 6s. 8d. yearly, and thereafter 8l. till they should have received the sum of 132l. borrowed of the said abbot by the said John Creton. Last day of March, 8 Edward IV. Seal."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64399
There's a similar record for Richard's reign, dated March 3, 1484 if I understand the regnal years correctly:
"A. 8345. Indenture, being a feoffment by John Wilcokkes and Simon Monceux to Francis, lord Lovell, John Catesby, knight, Roger Wake, Robert Wittilbury and Henry Griffith of lands &c. late John Cretan's in Little Creton, Sprotton and elsewhere, which they together with John Eborall, clerk, and William Twyktwyn, chaplain, since deceased, had by the feoffment of William the abbot of the monastery of St. James next Northampton and the convent of the same, with appointment of Henry Wood and Robert Burneham as attorneys to deliver seisin. 3 March, 1 Richard III. Seals."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64398
Again, he's referred to as a clerk.
Carol
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
[snip]
Carol responds:
Don't know if this is any help, but there are two references to him as a clerk in "A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds" (British History Online). The first is dated the last day of March in the eighth year of Edward IV (1469?):
"A. 8472. Counterpart indenture, being a feoffment by John Eborall, clerk, William Twyktwyn, chaplain, John Wylkokes and Simon Mounceux, to Oliver Grymbald, of Little Eversdon, co. Cambridge, 'gentelman,' of the lands &c. late John Creton's in the towns and fields of Little Creton, Sprotton and elsewhere, which they had by the feoffment of William, abbot of St. James next Northampton and the convent of the same; rendering for the first seven years following 5l. 6s. 8d. yearly, and thereafter 8l. till they should have received the sum of 132l. borrowed of the said abbot by the said John Creton. Last day of March, 8 Edward IV. Seal."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64399
There's a similar record for Richard's reign, dated March 3, 1484 if I understand the regnal years correctly:
"A. 8345. Indenture, being a feoffment by John Wilcokkes and Simon Monceux to Francis, lord Lovell, John Catesby, knight, Roger Wake, Robert Wittilbury and Henry Griffith of lands &c. late John Cretan's in Little Creton, Sprotton and elsewhere, which they together with John Eborall, clerk, and William Twyktwyn, chaplain, since deceased, had by the feoffment of William the abbot of the monastery of St. James next Northampton and the convent of the same, with appointment of Henry Wood and Robert Burneham as attorneys to deliver seisin. 3 March, 1 Richard III. Seals."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64398
Again, he's referred to as a clerk.
Carol
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-24 16:31:07
Yes they often referred to rectors as clerks - some fulfilled both roles. I have Eborall dying in 1471, so the 'since deceased' would indeed apply to him. He seems a very credible choice to marry E and EW and he never moves far from Towcester, where he hangs out with Peter Empson, whose son will hang out with Reggie Bray in the same area. There are quite a few land transactions which cite him (and sometimes Empson). I buy into him conducting that service much more than I buy into Stillington doing the other. That doesn't mean at all that I refute the pre-contract. H
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 24 May 2013, 16:20
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Marie wrote:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
[snip]
Carol responds:
Don't know if this is any help, but there are two references to him as a clerk in "A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds" (British History Online). The first is dated the last day of March in the eighth year of Edward IV (1469?):
"A. 8472. Counterpart indenture, being a feoffment by John Eborall, clerk, William Twyktwyn, chaplain, John Wylkokes and Simon Mounceux, to Oliver Grymbald, of Little Eversdon, co. Cambridge, 'gentelman,' of the lands &c. late John Creton's in the towns and fields of Little Creton, Sprotton and elsewhere, which they had by the feoffment of William, abbot of St. James next Northampton and the convent of the same; rendering for the first seven years following 5l. 6s. 8d. yearly, and thereafter 8l. till they should have received the sum of 132l. borrowed of the said abbot by the said John Creton. Last day of March, 8 Edward IV. Seal."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64399
There's a similar record for Richard's reign, dated March 3, 1484 if I understand the regnal years correctly:
"A. 8345. Indenture, being a feoffment by John Wilcokkes and Simon Monceux to Francis, lord Lovell, John Catesby, knight, Roger Wake, Robert Wittilbury and Henry Griffith of lands &c. late John Cretan's in Little Creton, Sprotton and elsewhere, which they together with John Eborall, clerk, and William Twyktwyn, chaplain, since deceased, had by the feoffment of William the abbot of the monastery of St. James next Northampton and the convent of the same, with appointment of Henry Wood and Robert Burneham as attorneys to deliver seisin. 3 March, 1 Richard III. Seals."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64398
Again, he's referred to as a clerk.
Carol
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 24 May 2013, 16:20
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Marie wrote:
>
> Yes, Eborall was a real person, but now I've looked him up I find he wasn't a doctor but "Master John Eborall". This is from Michael Hicks' 'Edward V':-
> "About 1471, one source incidentally records that Master John Eborall, 'a good man and a great preacher', rector 1443-70 of Paulersbury (Northants.), had offered to intercede for Robert Catesby of Newenham (Northants.) in a land dispute with the Queen and had indeed so, 'supposing that he might have done good in the matter, forasmuch as he was then in favour because he married King Edward and Queen Elizabeth together (as he then affirmed). His church of Paulersbury is only just up the Great North Road from Grafton and Stony Stratford. We do not know where Eborall was buried and hence whether he was the priest interred before the high altar at the London Minories to whom 'Hearne's Fragment' attributes the marriage." (p. 41)
[snip]
Carol responds:
Don't know if this is any help, but there are two references to him as a clerk in "A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds" (British History Online). The first is dated the last day of March in the eighth year of Edward IV (1469?):
"A. 8472. Counterpart indenture, being a feoffment by John Eborall, clerk, William Twyktwyn, chaplain, John Wylkokes and Simon Mounceux, to Oliver Grymbald, of Little Eversdon, co. Cambridge, 'gentelman,' of the lands &c. late John Creton's in the towns and fields of Little Creton, Sprotton and elsewhere, which they had by the feoffment of William, abbot of St. James next Northampton and the convent of the same; rendering for the first seven years following 5l. 6s. 8d. yearly, and thereafter 8l. till they should have received the sum of 132l. borrowed of the said abbot by the said John Creton. Last day of March, 8 Edward IV. Seal."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64399
There's a similar record for Richard's reign, dated March 3, 1484 if I understand the regnal years correctly:
"A. 8345. Indenture, being a feoffment by John Wilcokkes and Simon Monceux to Francis, lord Lovell, John Catesby, knight, Roger Wake, Robert Wittilbury and Henry Griffith of lands &c. late John Cretan's in Little Creton, Sprotton and elsewhere, which they together with John Eborall, clerk, and William Twyktwyn, chaplain, since deceased, had by the feoffment of William the abbot of the monastery of St. James next Northampton and the convent of the same, with appointment of Henry Wood and Robert Burneham as attorneys to deliver seisin. 3 March, 1 Richard III. Seals."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64398
Again, he's referred to as a clerk.
Carol
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-24 17:40:42
Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes they often referred to rectors as clerks - some fulfilled both roles. I have Eborall dying in 1471, so the 'since deceased' would indeed apply to him. [snip]
Carol responds:
Or it could refer only to "William Twyktwyn, chaplain," which is how I read it. Thanks for the explanation about clerks and rectors. To me, "clerk" suggests a very junior position, but maybe the connotations of the term have changed.
Carol
>
> Yes they often referred to rectors as clerks - some fulfilled both roles. I have Eborall dying in 1471, so the 'since deceased' would indeed apply to him. [snip]
Carol responds:
Or it could refer only to "William Twyktwyn, chaplain," which is how I read it. Thanks for the explanation about clerks and rectors. To me, "clerk" suggests a very junior position, but maybe the connotations of the term have changed.
Carol
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-24 19:12:08
They were not at all like Bob Cratchett! One of my lot who was a Rector is descrbed in a lot of NA docs as 'clerk'. Is that where the word 'clerical' comes from? It's like shepherd. A sixteenth century shepherd wasn't a farm worker he was the guy who owned the sheep; just like a grazier bred cattle, not looked after them.
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 24 May 2013, 17:40
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes they often referred to rectors as clerks - some fulfilled both roles. I have Eborall dying in 1471, so the 'since deceased' would indeed apply to him. [snip]
Carol responds:
Or it could refer only to "William Twyktwyn, chaplain," which is how I read it. Thanks for the explanation about clerks and rectors. To me, "clerk" suggests a very junior position, but maybe the connotations of the term have changed.
Carol
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 24 May 2013, 17:40
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Yes they often referred to rectors as clerks - some fulfilled both roles. I have Eborall dying in 1471, so the 'since deceased' would indeed apply to him. [snip]
Carol responds:
Or it could refer only to "William Twyktwyn, chaplain," which is how I read it. Thanks for the explanation about clerks and rectors. To me, "clerk" suggests a very junior position, but maybe the connotations of the term have changed.
Carol
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-25 18:53:22
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> They were not at all like Bob Cratchett! One of my lot who was a Rector is descrbed in a lot of NA docs as 'clerk'. Is that where the word 'clerical' comes from? It's like shepherd. A sixteenth century shepherd wasn't a farm worker he was the guy who owned the sheep; just like a grazier bred cattle, not looked after them.
Carol responds:
Apparently, "clerk" and "cleric" ("member of the clergy") were once synonymous and could also mean "scholar"! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clerk. I originally had in mind Chaucer's clerk, a kind of graduate student who both "teches" and "lernes," rather than a rector or other fully qualified cleric who had taken minor orders (in the clerical sense).
Re your point on "shepherd," the English Romantic poet (Percy Bysshe) Shelley, who eloped to Scotland at nineteen to marry a sixteen-year-old after having been expelled from Oxford, put his occupation as "farmer" on his marriage license. What he meant was "son and heir of a country squire who owns a lot of farmland."
Carol
>
> They were not at all like Bob Cratchett! One of my lot who was a Rector is descrbed in a lot of NA docs as 'clerk'. Is that where the word 'clerical' comes from? It's like shepherd. A sixteenth century shepherd wasn't a farm worker he was the guy who owned the sheep; just like a grazier bred cattle, not looked after them.
Carol responds:
Apparently, "clerk" and "cleric" ("member of the clergy") were once synonymous and could also mean "scholar"! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clerk. I originally had in mind Chaucer's clerk, a kind of graduate student who both "teches" and "lernes," rather than a rector or other fully qualified cleric who had taken minor orders (in the clerical sense).
Re your point on "shepherd," the English Romantic poet (Percy Bysshe) Shelley, who eloped to Scotland at nineteen to marry a sixteen-year-old after having been expelled from Oxford, put his occupation as "farmer" on his marriage license. What he meant was "son and heir of a country squire who owns a lot of farmland."
Carol
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-25 19:10:25
Jeepers, that is my kind of farmer!
On May 25, 2013, at 12:53 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67@...>> wrote:
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> They were not at all like Bob Cratchett! One of my lot who was a Rector is descrbed in a lot of NA docs as 'clerk'. Is that where the word 'clerical' comes from? It's like shepherd. A sixteenth century shepherd wasn't a farm worker he was the guy who owned the sheep; just like a grazier bred cattle, not looked after them.
Carol responds:
Apparently, "clerk" and "cleric" ("member of the clergy") were once synonymous and could also mean "scholar"! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clerk. I originally had in mind Chaucer's clerk, a kind of graduate student who both "teches" and "lernes," rather than a rector or other fully qualified cleric who had taken minor orders (in the clerical sense).
Re your point on "shepherd," the English Romantic poet (Percy Bysshe) Shelley, who eloped to Scotland at nineteen to marry a sixteen-year-old after having been expelled from Oxford, put his occupation as "farmer" on his marriage license. What he meant was "son and heir of a country squire who owns a lot of farmland."
Carol
On May 25, 2013, at 12:53 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67@...>> wrote:
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> They were not at all like Bob Cratchett! One of my lot who was a Rector is descrbed in a lot of NA docs as 'clerk'. Is that where the word 'clerical' comes from? It's like shepherd. A sixteenth century shepherd wasn't a farm worker he was the guy who owned the sheep; just like a grazier bred cattle, not looked after them.
Carol responds:
Apparently, "clerk" and "cleric" ("member of the clergy") were once synonymous and could also mean "scholar"! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clerk. I originally had in mind Chaucer's clerk, a kind of graduate student who both "teches" and "lernes," rather than a rector or other fully qualified cleric who had taken minor orders (in the clerical sense).
Re your point on "shepherd," the English Romantic poet (Percy Bysshe) Shelley, who eloped to Scotland at nineteen to marry a sixteen-year-old after having been expelled from Oxford, put his occupation as "farmer" on his marriage license. What he meant was "son and heir of a country squire who owns a lot of farmland."
Carol
Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
2013-05-26 17:08:17
That's absolutely right. The first census over here (1841) had the same problem with agricultural labourers. Brother could be a millionnaire who owned the farm and you worked with him as younger brother. You were an agricultural labourer just like your employee in the cottage in the village.
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 25 May 2013, 18:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> They were not at all like Bob Cratchett! One of my lot who was a Rector is descrbed in a lot of NA docs as 'clerk'. Is that where the word 'clerical' comes from? It's like shepherd. A sixteenth century shepherd wasn't a farm worker he was the guy who owned the sheep; just like a grazier bred cattle, not looked after them.
Carol responds:
Apparently, "clerk" and "cleric" ("member of the clergy") were once synonymous and could also mean "scholar"! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clerk. I originally had in mind Chaucer's clerk, a kind of graduate student who both "teches" and "lernes," rather than a rector or other fully qualified cleric who had taken minor orders (in the clerical sense).
Re your point on "shepherd," the English Romantic poet (Percy Bysshe) Shelley, who eloped to Scotland at nineteen to marry a sixteen-year-old after having been expelled from Oxford, put his occupation as "farmer" on his marriage license. What he meant was "son and heir of a country squire who owns a lot of farmland."
Carol
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 25 May 2013, 18:53
Subject: Re: Who Married Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville?
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> They were not at all like Bob Cratchett! One of my lot who was a Rector is descrbed in a lot of NA docs as 'clerk'. Is that where the word 'clerical' comes from? It's like shepherd. A sixteenth century shepherd wasn't a farm worker he was the guy who owned the sheep; just like a grazier bred cattle, not looked after them.
Carol responds:
Apparently, "clerk" and "cleric" ("member of the clergy") were once synonymous and could also mean "scholar"! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clerk. I originally had in mind Chaucer's clerk, a kind of graduate student who both "teches" and "lernes," rather than a rector or other fully qualified cleric who had taken minor orders (in the clerical sense).
Re your point on "shepherd," the English Romantic poet (Percy Bysshe) Shelley, who eloped to Scotland at nineteen to marry a sixteen-year-old after having been expelled from Oxford, put his occupation as "farmer" on his marriage license. What he meant was "son and heir of a country squire who owns a lot of farmland."
Carol
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