PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction

I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.

Album: Miscellaneous
Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13


~Weds

Excellent, Weds. I'm sorry the photograph I found wasn't up to scratch, but the result you've achieved is amazing anyway. I appreciate your emphasis that it is an amateur reconstruction, and so bear it in mind when I say the kink' in the spine doesn't appear as exaggerated as the previous skelly pics. I realise the pain must still have been awful, but I have to wonder if his appearance was indeed much more normal' than we thought? Perhaps with armour and so on he really was able to function properly. I think he must have done, because his life was certainly active enough. Does this mean he might also have been taller than we thought at first?

Thank you for the hard work!

From: Wednesday McKenna
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 7:48 PM
To:
Subject: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction

I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.

Album: Miscellaneous
Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13

~Weds

Now that is a very different (ie much milder) looking scoliosis than shown by the Leicester team, and to me - another amateur - the bones seem to fit together much much better. Surely that wouldn't have taken more than an inch or two off his height, or caused him too much problem.
Marie

--- In , Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
> Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
>
> Album: Miscellaneous
> Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13
>
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>

Sounds just like my close friend!
----- Original Message -----
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction




Now that is a very different (ie much milder) looking scoliosis than shown by the Leicester team, and to me - another amateur - the bones seem to fit together much much better. Surely that wouldn't have taken more than an inch or two off his height, or caused him too much problem.
Marie

--- In , Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
> Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
>
> Album: Miscellaneous
> Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13
>
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>

WOW, that is simply amazing, and more like we had all supposed. Thank you. It must have taken hours and immense patience.

________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of SandraMachin
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 3:28 PM
To:
Subject: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction



Excellent, Weds. I'm sorry the photograph I found wasn't up to scratch, but the result you've achieved is amazing anyway. I appreciate your emphasis that it is an amateur reconstruction, and so bear it in mind when I say the 'kink' in the spine doesn't appear as exaggerated as the previous skelly pics. I realise the pain must still have been awful, but I have to wonder if his appearance was indeed much more 'normal' than we thought? Perhaps with armour and so on he really was able to function properly. I think he must have done, because his life was certainly active enough. Does this mean he might also have been taller than we thought at first?

Thank you for the hard work!

From: Wednesday McKenna
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 7:48 PM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction

I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.

Album: Miscellaneous
Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13

~Weds

Hi, Weds -

Many thanks for the spinal reconstruction! It doesn't look all that curved,
to my untrained eye (certainly a lot less than the photos of the skeleton in
the grave and on the table). But I take it from what you have written that
Richard would have been in excruciating pain. Or am I misunderstanding?



They have suggested that Richard's condition was progressive - which
suggests that the curvature at death was the worst that it ever was during
Richard's lifetime. But I find it fascinating to see that your
reconstruction looks realistic and that it seems to indicate that Richard
would *not* have been disabled. Cool! I hope that we can persuade the
powers-that-be to do the complete skeletal reconstruction and a full-figure
replica of Richard. I am darn sure it would open some eyes!



BTW, could you upload the picture of the bones that you used to Photoshop
the spine? It might be nice to have it filed next to your reconstruction,
for future reference. J



Thanks bunches for all your hard work and your friend's as well.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Wednesday
McKenna
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 3:49 PM
To:
Subject: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal
Reconstruction





I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.

Album: Miscellaneous
Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13

~Weds

Could you ask your friend if one of his/her legs is slightly shorter than the other? Because in the amateur reconstruction, Richard's scoliosis causes his shoulders to not align with his hips, so one leg may have been slightly shorter than the other because what's above is mirrored below with scoliosis. (If you draw a straight line from the outer edge of his collarbone to the outer edge of his hip, you can see what I mean.)

If that's the case, it doesn't mean Richard walked with a limp, it means he may have stood with one hip cocked and may have been aware that he couldn't sit squarely in a chair. It also supports the "one shoulder slightly higher than the other" scenario. If so, his stance wouldn't have been noticeable to anyone but him.

~Weds

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds just like my close friend!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:27 PM
> Subject: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction
>
>
>
>
> Now that is a very different (ie much milder) looking scoliosis than shown by the Leicester team, and to me - another amateur - the bones seem to fit together much much better. Surely that wouldn't have taken more than an inch or two off his height, or caused him too much problem.
> Marie
>
> --- In , Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
> > Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
> >
> > Album: Miscellaneous
> > Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13
> >
> >
> > ~Weds

Wednesday McKenna wrote:
>
> I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.

Carol responds:

Thank you, Weds. If only the Leicester team had done something similar! Any way you can send it to them for their reaction? Or how about publishing it in the Ricardian Bulletin and inviting comment?

I'm guessing that Richard's scoliosis was more like Usain Bolt's than the published photos suggest. Despite the pain he suffered, he would not have been noticeably misshapen or deformed as the bones on the table suggest. Just one more thing that the Leicester team, especially Jo Appleby, has to answer for.

Carol

mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> Now that is a very different (ie much milder) looking scoliosis than shown by the Leicester team, and to me - another amateur - the bones seem to fit together much much better. Surely that wouldn't have taken more than an inch or two off his height, or caused him too much problem.

Carol responds:

And it would explain why no one commented on his crooked back during his lifetime, and even enemies like Commynes said nothing about it after his death. Even after his naked body had been paraded through Leicester, we hear nothing about a "crookback" from the chroniclers, only the raised shoulder (and small body) in a different context.

Someone needs to circulate this photograph. (Weds?)

Carol

I think submitting it to the Ricardian Bulletin is an excellent idea. It will get the image known to every member of the Society, including the Executive Committee, because no other "powers that be" other than the RIII Soc. are ever goning to pay forbe interested in a full-body reconstruction. It's just a matter of what the reconstruction would cost.
Marie


--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Wednesday McKenna wrote:
> >
> > I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thank you, Weds. If only the Leicester team had done something similar! Any way you can send it to them for their reaction? Or how about publishing it in the Ricardian Bulletin and inviting comment?
>
> I'm guessing that Richard's scoliosis was more like Usain Bolt's than the published photos suggest. Despite the pain he suffered, he would not have been noticeably misshapen or deformed as the bones on the table suggest. Just one more thing that the Leicester team, especially Jo Appleby, has to answer for.
>
> Carol
>

Johanne, people with scoliosis are *not* disabled, and with his bones in
the realistic way Weds has reconstructed them he would have had little
pain, probably just the occasional discomfort.
Paul

On 25/05/2013 23:25, Johanne Tournier wrote:
> Hi, Weds -
>
> Many thanks for the spinal reconstruction! It doesn't look all that curved,
> to my untrained eye (certainly a lot less than the photos of the skeleton in
> the grave and on the table). But I take it from what you have written that
> Richard would have been in excruciating pain. Or am I misunderstanding?
>
>
>
> They have suggested that Richard's condition was progressive - which
> suggests that the curvature at death was the worst that it ever was during
> Richard's lifetime. But I find it fascinating to see that your
> reconstruction looks realistic and that it seems to indicate that Richard
> would *not* have been disabled. Cool! I hope that we can persuade the
> powers-that-be to do the complete skeletal reconstruction and a full-figure
> replica of Richard. I am darn sure it would open some eyes!
>
>
>
> BTW, could you upload the picture of the bones that you used to Photoshop
> the spine? It might be nice to have it filed next to your reconstruction,
> for future reference. J
>
>
>
> Thanks bunches for all your hard work and your friend's as well.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Wednesday
> McKenna
> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 3:49 PM
> To:
> Subject: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal
> Reconstruction
>
>
>
>
>
> I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
> Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
>
> Album: Miscellaneous
> Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Dear Paul -



I am not talking about "people with scoliosis" in general. What I was saying
reflected my perception based on the many viewings of the skeleton as
presented by Leicester together with their expressed opinions (more
knowledgeable than mine). I am surprised that what I am seeing from
Wednesday and her friend's reconstruction definitely shows a much more
gentle curvature than anything we have seen previously.



However - scoliosis *can* be disabling. Please do not think that I think any
less of any person with scoliosis, of whatever degree. I don't even think
scoliosis (unlike "hunchback") has any particular stigma to it, at least it
doesn't in my mind. For example, my best friend (until her untimely demise
several years ago) was partially incapacitated by scoliosis, if you accept
that inability to sleep in a bed is evidence of incapacity. She was a
talented artist, a remarkable individual who blessed the people who knew
her. I miss her terribly. So, please do not make some sweeping judgment
about me, because you have misinterpreted something I have written. I would
ask the same understanding that you would like to have for yourself.



Now, for example, I believe there is the possibility that Wednesday's
reconstruction does not closely reflect the way Richard's spine was aligned
in life. Perhaps the curvature was worse, closer to the previous images we
have seen than her reconstruction. She has certainly accepted that there are
limitations in what they were able to do, in good part because of inadequate
photographic reproduction. But, if I express some reservations, or caution,
in the interpretation, it shouldn't be interpreted as reflecting a negative
opinion of either her or her friend's work. Rather, I admire their effort,
something which I do not have the skill to even attempt. And that is one of
my main reactions when I reflect on Richard III. I may express my feelings a
bit differently than you do, but that does not mean that they are any the
less real, or potentially any the less valid.



This is a discussion list, a forum for polite debate, and in my view
consideration of all points of view is important, even though some opinions
expressed may be flawed. I do value the truth, whatever it may be found to
be, and I feel that the best way to uncover the truth is to be able to
consider all arguments about matters which are On Topic for this list,
thoroughly and respectfully. It is very important to me that if I say
"scoliosis" and "incapacity" or "disability" in one sentence, that I not be
presumed to be casting aspersions on people today who have scoliosis. Might
I just note parenthetically that there are many treatments today that were
not available in Richard's time, that the effect of the condition in many
people today is likely to be less than it was on him and less than what he
had to deal with, whatever the actual degree of his scoliosis when looked at
objectively.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 6:58 AM
To:
Subject: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal
Reconstruction





Johanne, people with scoliosis are *not* disabled, and with his bones in
the realistic way Weds has reconstructed them he would have had little
pain, probably just the occasional discomfort.
Paul

On 25/05/2013 23:25, Johanne Tournier wrote:
> Hi, Weds -
>
> Many thanks for the spinal reconstruction! It doesn't look all that
curved,
> to my untrained eye (certainly a lot less than the photos of the skeleton
in
> the grave and on the table). But I take it from what you have written that
> Richard would have been in excruciating pain. Or am I misunderstanding?
>
>
>
> They have suggested that Richard's condition was progressive - which
> suggests that the curvature at death was the worst that it ever was during
> Richard's lifetime. But I find it fascinating to see that your
> reconstruction looks realistic and that it seems to indicate that Richard
> would *not* have been disabled. Cool! I hope that we can persuade the
> powers-that-be to do the complete skeletal reconstruction and a
full-figure
> replica of Richard. I am darn sure it would open some eyes!
>
>
>
> BTW, could you upload the picture of the bones that you used to Photoshop
> the spine? It might be nice to have it filed next to your reconstruction,
> for future reference. J
>
>
>
> Thanks bunches for all your hard work and your friend's as well.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Wednesday
> McKenna
> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 3:49 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal
> Reconstruction
>
>
>
>
>
> I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
> Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
>
> Album: Miscellaneous
> Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal
Reconstruction


> I think submitting it to the Ricardian Bulletin is an excellent idea. It
> will get the image known to every member of the Society, including the
> Executive Committee, because no other "powers that be" other than the RIII
> Soc. are ever goning to pay forbe interested in a full-body
> reconstruction. It's just a matter of what the reconstruction would cost.
Marie

But it doesn't look anything like what we see in the grave, and it's bending
*the opposite way* from what we see in the grave, and it leaves him with his
neck severely offset from his lumbar spine, his lumbar spine at a weird
angle to his pelvis and his cervical spine at a weird angle to his head.
This would be much more noticeable and probably much more disabling than
what we see from his position in the grave, which is that his neck and
lumbar spine are lined up straight with each other and with his pelvis and
head, but part of his thoracic spine deviates out and then back in and then
lines up straight again.

[Ignore the way they laid his bones out on the table - it's obvious they
were looking at him from the side rather than the top and didn't realise
that their bony jigsaw had drifted a bit out of true. *In the grave* his
neck and lower back are perfectly aligned.]

Somebody with a back the zig-zag shape Wednesday and her friend have made it
could never pass for straight because their whole body would be canted and
their head offset relative to their pelvis, whereas the curve that Richard
visibly has in the grave would leave his neck and lower back lined up
straight, and so long as his clothes weren't so skin-tight as to show the
shape of his rib-cage in any detail, he would just look like a man who had
slightly long limbs relative to his torso.

If you look at the charts of common types of scoliosis here
http://beautyartyoga.newyorkartists.net/yoga/yoga-and-scoliosis/ ,
Wednesday's reconstruction seems most to resemble the one third from left,
which you'll see results in noticeable distortion of posture, whereas the
curve Richard has in the grave most resembles the one at far right, which
results in a slightly oddly-shaped ribcage but virtually no visible change
in posture. [Also the one at far right has the very-slightly-higher
shoulder on the concave side of the curve, which would fit with the SoA
portrait.]

Agqain, if you go here
http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/scoliosis-article.html about a third of the
way down on the left you'll see an X-ray of a woman with a C-curve with the
cervical and lumbar spines lined up, which is about identical with the curve
Richard has in the grave, and so far as it's possible to tell (given that
the photo' is severely cropped) her shoulders and pelvis are almost
completely straight and her posture would appear normal. Again, insofar as
there is any difference the shoulder on the concave side is marginally
higher, which fits with the fact that the SoA portrait - the only one in
which his shoulders look like actual human anatomy and not a flat bit of
board with a head added on top - has his left shoulder slightly higher.

And no, he doesn't seem to have one leg shorter than the other - at least,
his thighbones seem to be exactly the same length.

From: Claire M Jordan
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal
Reconstruction


> what we see from his position in the grave, which is that his neck and
lumbar spine are lined up straight with each other and with his pelvis and
head,

Erratum - looking at the overhead shots again I see that his lumbar spine
*is* at an angle to his pelvis (sorry) - but that might be due to his
position in the grave, because it's of a piece with his hands being pushed
out to the right. Whether bound or shrouded his hands almost certainly
started in the middle in a standard laying-out position, so their
displacement suggests that his torso became twisted to the left and his
hands pushed out to the right as he was lowered into the grave.

[The C-curve in his spine, however, cannot be the result of post mortem
displacement because it's a lot further out to the side than the natural
flexion if a straight or even straightish spine. Until his body had decayed
almost to a skeleton, his ribs and intercostal muscles would prevent his
spine from bowing that far out of true, unless it had already grown that way
and his ribs and intercostal muscles had adapted to fit.]

On the other hand, if you go here
http://www.presspubs.com/shoreview/news/article_4b55de34-88a4-11e1-b6a2-001a4bcf887a.html
and click on the black and white square saying "COND" that's underneath the
main picture, you'll see another X-ray of a spine very like Richard's in the
grave, this one including a slight but definite cant between the lumbar
spine and the pelvis, and again you'll see it causes little visible change:
indeed in this case there seems to be no difference between the shoulders at
all. This person has since had surgery on her spine - but she was already
an active rock climber and had very little pain *before* she had the
surgery.

Looking at the chart of common types of scoliosis here
http://beautyartyoga.newyorkartists.net/yoga/yoga-and-scoliosis/ again, not
only does it resemble the SoA portrait in having the left shoulder higher,
but also in that it's not a case of the high shoulder being raised. Rather,
the higher shoulder is in a normal, level position and the low shoulder is
depressed slightly downwards, which matches SoA perfectly. Given that we
can see from the reconstruction that this sort of curve is one of the least
noticeable kinds, when the person is fully clothed, and the testimony from
somebody who has a C-curve that it didn't cause any serious problems until
she was in her 50s, and the proven existence of a 13-year-old who could do
rock-climbing whilst having a curve like Richard's, I don't see any reason
to doubt that Richard's spine was as it appears in the grave (but not as it
appears on the table, where his upper body has drifted sideways a bit).

Really, I think Ch 4 caused this dispute by using as an example a photo' of
somebody with a quite differently-shaped curve which resulted in a a much
more visible difference between the shoulders. We have to clear our minds
of that image!

Agreed. Thank you Weds. It doesn't look anywhere near as bad as in "The King in the Carpark ".

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Excellent, Weds. I’m sorry the photograph I found wasn’t up to scratch, but the result you’ve achieved is amazing anyway. I appreciate your emphasis that it is an amateur reconstruction, and so bear it in mind when I say the ‘kink’ in the spine doesn’t appear as exaggerated as the previous skelly pics. I realise the pain must still have been awful, but I have to wonder if his appearance was indeed much more ‘normal’ than we thought? Perhaps with armour and so on he really was able to function properly. I think he must have done, because his life was certainly active enough. Does this mean he might also have been taller than we thought at first?
>
> Thank you for the hard work!
>
> From: Wednesday McKenna
> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 7:48 PM
> To:
> Subject: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction
>
> I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
> Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
>
> Album: Miscellaneous
> Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>

Johane what you wrote originally was

it seems to indicate that Richard
would*not* have been disabled.

which reads to me that you felt scoliosis is a disablement.
So no need to go off on one. I was simply reacting to what you said.
Paul


On 26/05/2013 12:15, Johanne Tournier wrote:
> Dear Paul -
>
>
>
> I am not talking about "people with scoliosis" in general. What I was saying
> reflected my perception based on the many viewings of the skeleton as
> presented by Leicester together with their expressed opinions (more
> knowledgeable than mine). I am surprised that what I am seeing from
> Wednesday and her friend's reconstruction definitely shows a much more
> gentle curvature than anything we have seen previously.
>
>
>
> However - scoliosis *can* be disabling. Please do not think that I think any
> less of any person with scoliosis, of whatever degree. I don't even think
> scoliosis (unlike "hunchback") has any particular stigma to it, at least it
> doesn't in my mind. For example, my best friend (until her untimely demise
> several years ago) was partially incapacitated by scoliosis, if you accept
> that inability to sleep in a bed is evidence of incapacity. She was a
> talented artist, a remarkable individual who blessed the people who knew
> her. I miss her terribly. So, please do not make some sweeping judgment
> about me, because you have misinterpreted something I have written. I would
> ask the same understanding that you would like to have for yourself.
>
>
>
> Now, for example, I believe there is the possibility that Wednesday's
> reconstruction does not closely reflect the way Richard's spine was aligned
> in life. Perhaps the curvature was worse, closer to the previous images we
> have seen than her reconstruction. She has certainly accepted that there are
> limitations in what they were able to do, in good part because of inadequate
> photographic reproduction. But, if I express some reservations, or caution,
> in the interpretation, it shouldn't be interpreted as reflecting a negative
> opinion of either her or her friend's work. Rather, I admire their effort,
> something which I do not have the skill to even attempt. And that is one of
> my main reactions when I reflect on Richard III. I may express my feelings a
> bit differently than you do, but that does not mean that they are any the
> less real, or potentially any the less valid.
>
>
>
> This is a discussion list, a forum for polite debate, and in my view
> consideration of all points of view is important, even though some opinions
> expressed may be flawed. I do value the truth, whatever it may be found to
> be, and I feel that the best way to uncover the truth is to be able to
> consider all arguments about matters which are On Topic for this list,
> thoroughly and respectfully. It is very important to me that if I say
> "scoliosis" and "incapacity" or "disability" in one sentence, that I not be
> presumed to be casting aspersions on people today who have scoliosis. Might
> I just note parenthetically that there are many treatments today that were
> not available in Richard's time, that the effect of the condition in many
> people today is likely to be less than it was on him and less than what he
> had to deal with, whatever the actual degree of his scoliosis when looked at
> objectively.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
> Bale
> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 6:58 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal
> Reconstruction
>
>
>
>
>
> Johanne, people with scoliosis are *not* disabled, and with his bones in
> the realistic way Weds has reconstructed them he would have had little
> pain, probably just the occasional discomfort.
> Paul
>
> On 25/05/2013 23:25, Johanne Tournier wrote:
>> Hi, Weds -
>>
>> Many thanks for the spinal reconstruction! It doesn't look all that
> curved,
>> to my untrained eye (certainly a lot less than the photos of the skeleton
> in
>> the grave and on the table). But I take it from what you have written that
>> Richard would have been in excruciating pain. Or am I misunderstanding?
>>
>>
>>
>> They have suggested that Richard's condition was progressive - which
>> suggests that the curvature at death was the worst that it ever was during
>> Richard's lifetime. But I find it fascinating to see that your
>> reconstruction looks realistic and that it seems to indicate that Richard
>> would *not* have been disabled. Cool! I hope that we can persuade the
>> powers-that-be to do the complete skeletal reconstruction and a
> full-figure
>> replica of Richard. I am darn sure it would open some eyes!
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, could you upload the picture of the bones that you used to Photoshop
>> the spine? It might be nice to have it filed next to your reconstruction,
>> for future reference. J
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks bunches for all your hard work and your friend's as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Loyaulte me lie,
>>
>>
>>
>> Johanne
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Johanne L. Tournier
>>
>>
>>
>> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>>
>> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>>
>>
>>
>> "With God, all things are possible."
>>
>> - Jesus of Nazareth
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>> From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Wednesday
>> McKenna
>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 3:49 PM
>> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal
>> Reconstruction
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
>> Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
>>
>> Album: Miscellaneous
>> Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13
>>
>> ~Weds
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Weds,
 My scoliosis is very much like what you have come up with.  Yes, my right leg is ¾ longer than my left (makes hemming pants a pain!).  My right shoulder is also higher.  I really did not notice the difference in leg length until I became pregnant.  I realize now, I stood on the side of my right foot, which balanced my body.  I couldn't do that while pregnant, so the difference became more noticeable.  As I've said before, when you have scoliosis, you learn how to adapt.
Vickie

From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction

 
Could you ask your friend if one of his/her legs is slightly shorter than the other? Because in the amateur reconstruction, Richard's scoliosis causes his shoulders to not align with his hips, so one leg may have been slightly shorter than the other because what's above is mirrored below with scoliosis. (If you draw a straight line from the outer edge of his collarbone to the outer edge of his hip, you can see what I mean.)

If that's the case, it doesn't mean Richard walked with a limp, it means he may have stood with one hip cocked and may have been aware that he couldn't sit squarely in a chair. It also supports the "one shoulder slightly higher than the other" scenario. If so, his stance wouldn't have been noticeable to anyone but him.

~Weds

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds just like my close friend!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:27 PM
> Subject: Re: PHOTO UPLOADED: Amateur Spinal Reconstruction
>
>
>
>
> Now that is a very different (ie much milder) looking scoliosis than shown by the Leicester team, and to me - another amateur - the bones seem to fit together much much better. Surely that wouldn't have taken more than an inch or two off his height, or caused him too much problem.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of
> > Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
> >
> > Album: Miscellaneous
> > Title: Amateur Spinal Recon 5-24-13
> >
> >
> > ~Weds

Well, if I win the lottery or the Euromillions this weekend, I know what I'll be buying...

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I think submitting it to the Ricardian Bulletin is an excellent idea. It will get the image known to every member of the Society, including the Executive Committee, because no other "powers that be" other than the RIII Soc. are ever goning to pay forbe interested in a full-body reconstruction. It's just a matter of what the reconstruction would cost.
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > Wednesday McKenna wrote:
> > >
> > > I just uploaded an amateur reconstruction photo created in Photoshop of Richard's spine to this groups Photos section.
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thank you, Weds. If only the Leicester team had done something similar! Any way you can send it to them for their reaction? Or how about publishing it in the Ricardian Bulletin and inviting comment?
> >
> > I'm guessing that Richard's scoliosis was more like Usain Bolt's than the published photos suggest. Despite the pain he suffered, he would not have been noticeably misshapen or deformed as the bones on the table suggest. Just one more thing that the Leicester team, especially Jo Appleby, has to answer for.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>