Clothes fit for a King.......

By the king
We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of Tawney sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold that one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett) blak velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one yerde & iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of silke for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of gold for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij yerdes and oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white parcelle gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the Trinite/one banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint Cuthbert/one of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne gold for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with bukeram/xl trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI penselles of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the last day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
To Piers Curteys

Harleian Manuscript II, 42

Wow - I'd be worried if my husband dressed like that! But it shows an incredible attention to detail. Could it be that our Richard was artistic (or did he have a Gok Wan at his elbow)? Was it for Edward's Investiture in York - given the banners and the stuff for the heralds? 



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2013, 13:23
Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......


 

By the king
We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of Tawney sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold that one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett) blak velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one yerde & iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of silke for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of gold for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij yerdes and oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij paire of Sporres short
alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white parcelle gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the Trinite/one banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint Cuthbert/one of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne gold for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with bukeram/xl trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI penselles of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the last day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
To Piers Curteys

Harleian Manuscript II, 42

Wouldn't it be awful if they turned out to be the Emperor's New Clothes?????

From: EileenB
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:23 PM
To:
Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......
By the king
We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of Tawney sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold that one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett) blak velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one yerde & iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of silke for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of gold for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij yerdes and oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white parcelle gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the Trinite/one banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint Cuthbert/one of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne gold for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with bukeram/xl trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI penselles of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the last day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
To Piers Curteys

Harleian Manuscript II, 42

Were these for the Prince's investiture? Aug 31 to Sep 8 doesn't seem like
a lot of time for all the message to get where it needed to go (or was it
close by?) & then all that stuff to travel back.

A J


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:23 AM, EileenB
<cherryripe.eileenb@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> By the king
> We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise
> parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne
> lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of Tawney
> sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold that
> one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one
> cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett) blak
> velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney
> sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one yerde &
> iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of silke
> for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of gold
> for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a
> gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij yerdes and
> oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij
> paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white parcelle
> gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse
> trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the Trinite/one
> banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint Cuthbert/one
> of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne gold
> for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with bukeram/xl
> trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI penselles
> of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of
> fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the last
> day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
> To Piers Curteys
>
> Harleian Manuscript II, 42
>
>
>

Oh...never thought of that? Do we know the exact date of Edward's investiture..? And where was Anne's stuff?

Maybe this was it....
"
A warrant to Piers Curteys to deliver or do to be delivered to the bringer for the Quene foure yerdes & an half of purpille Clothe of gold upone damask etc yevene the iij day of Julye the first yere etc"

Can you imagine the dress when it was made up....Oh to have a time machine to go back even for just a day......Eileen


--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Was it for Edward's Investiture in York - given the banners and the stuff for the heralds? 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2013, 13:23
> Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......
>
>
>  
>
> By the king
> We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of Tawney sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold that one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett) blak velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one yerde & iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of silke for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of gold for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij yerdes and oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij paire of Sporres short
> alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white parcelle gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the Trinite/one banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint Cuthbert/one of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne gold for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with bukeram/xl trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI penselles of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the last day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
> To Piers Curteys
>
> Harleian Manuscript II, 42
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ah yes AJ it was the 8th September. According to Pollard "it would appear that he (Edward) set off on 2 August to meet his father at Pontefract, travelling via York and riding in a chariot with two guards "rynning on fote by side" (Horrox and Hammond.)

Ive checked that out and it was Metcalff & Pacok (me: God Bless them!)

"vj viij d to Metcalff & Pacok for Rynnyng on fote by side my lord prince" HM 2.25

I thought ha...this does not mention a chariot, maybe he was riding a horse...but a few lines later on...

"vjsvd ob for thexpenses of my lord prince chariot from York to Pountfret and there"

This is sometimes pointed out to mean that Edward was a sickly child...however there is hope this may not be the reason for the chariot for a little further on :

"viij s ij d for thexpenses of my lord prince horsse at York"...thus we know that my lord prince was fit enough to ride a horse...maybe they were just being cautious in the chariot being used on longer trips...in fact I wonder if Edward might have kicked up a little being made to ride in a chariot..who knows...all lost in the mists of time..Eileen



--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Were these for the Prince's investiture? Aug 31 to Sep 8 doesn't seem like
> a lot of time for all the message to get where it needed to go (or was it
> close by?) & then all that stuff to travel back.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:23 AM, EileenB
> <cherryripe.eileenb@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > By the king
> > We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise
> > parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne
> > lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of Tawney
> > sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold that
> > one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one
> > cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett) blak
> > velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney
> > sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one yerde &
> > iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of silke
> > for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of gold
> > for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a
> > gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij yerdes and
> > oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij
> > paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white parcelle
> > gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse
> > trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the Trinite/one
> > banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint Cuthbert/one
> > of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne gold
> > for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with bukeram/xl
> > trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI penselles
> > of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of
> > fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the last
> > day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
> > To Piers Curteys
> >
> > Harleian Manuscript II, 42
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

This is the sort of fascinating detail I love - somehow it makes cold
history more alive. Thanks.

A J


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:58 AM, EileenB
<cherryripe.eileenb@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Ah yes AJ it was the 8th September. According to Pollard "it would appear
> that he (Edward) set off on 2 August to meet his father at Pontefract,
> travelling via York and riding in a chariot with two guards "rynning on
> fote by side" (Horrox and Hammond.)
>
> Ive checked that out and it was Metcalff & Pacok (me: God Bless them!)
>
> "vj viij d to Metcalff & Pacok for Rynnyng on fote by side my lord prince"
> HM 2.25
>
> I thought ha...this does not mention a chariot, maybe he was riding a
> horse...but a few lines later on...
>
> "vjsvd ob for thexpenses of my lord prince chariot from York to Pountfret
> and there"
>
> This is sometimes pointed out to mean that Edward was a sickly
> child...however there is hope this may not be the reason for the chariot
> for a little further on :
>
> "viij s ij d for thexpenses of my lord prince horsse at York"...thus we
> know that my lord prince was fit enough to ride a horse...maybe they were
> just being cautious in the chariot being used on longer trips...in fact I
> wonder if Edward might have kicked up a little being made to ride in a
> chariot..who knows...all lost in the mists of time..Eileen
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Were these for the Prince's investiture? Aug 31 to Sep 8 doesn't seem
> like
> > a lot of time for all the message to get where it needed to go (or was it
> > close by?) & then all that stuff to travel back.
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:23 AM, EileenB
> > <cherryripe.eileenb@...>wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > By the king
> > > We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise
> > > parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne
> > > lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of
> Tawney
> > > sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold
> that
> > > one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one
> > > cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett)
> blak
> > > velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney
> > > sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one
> yerde &
> > > iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of
> silke
> > > for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of
> gold
> > > for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a
> > > gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij
> yerdes and
> > > oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij
> > > paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white
> parcelle
> > > gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse
> > > trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the
> Trinite/one
> > > banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint
> Cuthbert/one
> > > of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne
> gold
> > > for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with
> bukeram/xl
> > > trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI
> penselles
> > > of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of
> > > fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the
> last
> > > day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
> > > To Piers Curteys
> > >
> > > Harleian Manuscript II, 42
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Your welcome AJ...eileen

--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> This is the sort of fascinating detail I love - somehow it makes cold
> history more alive. Thanks.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:58 AM, EileenB
> <cherryripe.eileenb@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Ah yes AJ it was the 8th September. According to Pollard "it would appear
> > that he (Edward) set off on 2 August to meet his father at Pontefract,
> > travelling via York and riding in a chariot with two guards "rynning on
> > fote by side" (Horrox and Hammond.)
> >
> > Ive checked that out and it was Metcalff & Pacok (me: God Bless them!)
> >
> > "vj viij d to Metcalff & Pacok for Rynnyng on fote by side my lord prince"
> > HM 2.25
> >
> > I thought ha...this does not mention a chariot, maybe he was riding a
> > horse...but a few lines later on...
> >
> > "vjsvd ob for thexpenses of my lord prince chariot from York to Pountfret
> > and there"
> >
> > This is sometimes pointed out to mean that Edward was a sickly
> > child...however there is hope this may not be the reason for the chariot
> > for a little further on :
> >
> > "viij s ij d for thexpenses of my lord prince horsse at York"...thus we
> > know that my lord prince was fit enough to ride a horse...maybe they were
> > just being cautious in the chariot being used on longer trips...in fact I
> > wonder if Edward might have kicked up a little being made to ride in a
> > chariot..who knows...all lost in the mists of time..Eileen
> >
> >
> > --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Were these for the Prince's investiture? Aug 31 to Sep 8 doesn't seem
> > like
> > > a lot of time for all the message to get where it needed to go (or was it
> > > close by?) & then all that stuff to travel back.
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:23 AM, EileenB
> > > <cherryripe.eileenb@>wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > By the king
> > > > We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise
> > > > parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne
> > > > lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of
> > Tawney
> > > > sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold
> > that
> > > > one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one
> > > > cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett)
> > blak
> > > > velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney
> > > > sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one
> > yerde &
> > > > iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of
> > silke
> > > > for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of
> > gold
> > > > for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a
> > > > gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij
> > yerdes and
> > > > oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij
> > > > paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white
> > parcelle
> > > > gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse
> > > > trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the
> > Trinite/one
> > > > banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint
> > Cuthbert/one
> > > > of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne
> > gold
> > > > for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with
> > bukeram/xl
> > > > trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI
> > penselles
> > > > of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of
> > > > fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the
> > last
> > > > day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
> > > > To Piers Curteys
> > > >
> > > > Harleian Manuscript II, 42
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

From: EileenB
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:23 PM
Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......


> By the king
We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise
parcelles folowing

Great post. Sounds like he really put a lot of thought into it - so maybe
he *did* choose the clothes Ann and Liz wore at Christmas!

No underpants or hose or shirts - and for that matter, no shoes or hats - in
that lot I notice. Would he have bought that sort of thing ready-made from
a merchant or seamstress, does anyone know, or would have have had his own
household seamstress/tailor to make them for him?

Shoes I think must have come from a separate leather-worker, because I
recall that there's an order of items "for the Lord Bastard" which included
a pair of shoes and a riding whip, suggesting that they were coming from a
workshop which made all kinds of leather goods.

Every little snippet of information adds to the actual person(s), and gives us a better glimpse into the conventions, clothing, travel, health, etc. In short, we are trying to make a better picture of the Plantagenets during the time of Richard III, from the beginning of his life until the last horrible hours.


From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 9:17 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King.......



Your welcome AJ...eileen

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...<mailto:ajhibbard@...>> wrote:
>
> This is the sort of fascinating detail I love - somehow it makes cold
> history more alive. Thanks.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:58 AM, EileenB
> <cherryripe.eileenb@...<mailto:cherryripe.eileenb@...>>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Ah yes AJ it was the 8th September. According to Pollard "it would appear
> > that he (Edward) set off on 2 August to meet his father at Pontefract,
> > travelling via York and riding in a chariot with two guards "rynning on
> > fote by side" (Horrox and Hammond.)
> >
> > Ive checked that out and it was Metcalff & Pacok (me: God Bless them!)
> >
> > "vj viij d to Metcalff & Pacok for Rynnyng on fote by side my lord prince"
> > HM 2.25
> >
> > I thought ha...this does not mention a chariot, maybe he was riding a
> > horse...but a few lines later on...
> >
> > "vjsvd ob for thexpenses of my lord prince chariot from York to Pountfret
> > and there"
> >
> > This is sometimes pointed out to mean that Edward was a sickly
> > child...however there is hope this may not be the reason for the chariot
> > for a little further on :
> >
> > "viij s ij d for thexpenses of my lord prince horsse at York"...thus we
> > know that my lord prince was fit enough to ride a horse...maybe they were
> > just being cautious in the chariot being used on longer trips...in fact I
> > wonder if Edward might have kicked up a little being made to ride in a
> > chariot..who knows...all lost in the mists of time..Eileen
> >
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Were these for the Prince's investiture? Aug 31 to Sep 8 doesn't seem
> > like
> > > a lot of time for all the message to get where it needed to go (or was it
> > > close by?) & then all that stuff to travel back.
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:23 AM, EileenB
> > > <cherryripe.eileenb@>wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > By the king
> > > > We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise
> > > > parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne
> > > > lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of
> > Tawney
> > > > sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold
> > that
> > > > one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one
> > > > cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett)
> > blak
> > > > velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney
> > > > sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one
> > yerde &
> > > > iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of
> > silke
> > > > for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of
> > gold
> > > > for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a
> > > > gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij
> > yerdes and
> > > > oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij
> > > > paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white
> > parcelle
> > > > gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse
> > > > trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the
> > Trinite/one
> > > > banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint
> > Cuthbert/one
> > > > of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne
> > gold
> > > > for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with
> > bukeram/xl
> > > > trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI
> > penselles
> > > > of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of
> > > > fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the
> > last
> > > > day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
> > > > To Piers Curteys
> > > >
> > > > Harleian Manuscript II, 42
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

From: EileenB
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:23 PM
Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......


> /oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/

Isn't a stomacher a purely female garment? In which case, some of this
stuff is presumably for Ann. Would a gowne be male, female or can't tell?

The stomachers I know of are from the Georgian period...they were richly embroidered and many still survive...the pointy bit which pinned on under the lacings of the front of the gown...gorgious so very gorgious...but what a Stomagere/Stomachere as part of the medieval man's costume was I know not...eileen

--- In , "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...> wrote:
>
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:23 PM
> Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......
>
>
> > /oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/
>
> Isn't a stomacher a purely female garment? In which case, some of this
> stuff is presumably for Ann. Would a gowne be male, female or can't tell?
>

Could it be the misspelling of the word, or the male connotation of some kind of like garment?


From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 9:33 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King.......



The stomachers I know of are from the Georgian period...they were richly embroidered and many still survive...the pointy bit which pinned on under the lacings of the front of the gown...gorgious so very gorgious...but what a Stomagere/Stomachere as part of the medieval man's costume was I know not...eileen

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@...<mailto:whitehound@...>> wrote:
>
> From: EileenB
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:23 PM
> Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......
>
>
> > /oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/
>
> Isn't a stomacher a purely female garment? In which case, some of this
> stuff is presumably for Ann. Would a gowne be male, female or can't tell?
>

Its a mystery Pamela...I'll give you that...another blooming mystery...:0/

--- In , Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> Could it be the misspelling of the word, or the male connotation of some kind of like garment?
>
>
> From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 9:33 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King.......
>
>
>
> The stomachers I know of are from the Georgian period...they were richly embroidered and many still survive...the pointy bit which pinned on under the lacings of the front of the gown...gorgious so very gorgious...but what a Stomagere/Stomachere as part of the medieval man's costume was I know not...eileen
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Claire M Jordan" <whitehound@<mailto:whitehound@>> wrote:
> >
> > From: EileenB
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:23 PM
> > Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......
> >
> >
> > > /oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/
> >
> > Isn't a stomacher a purely female garment? In which case, some of this
> > stuff is presumably for Ann. Would a gowne be male, female or can't tell?
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Yes bring it on!!



________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2013, 15:03
Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King.......


This is the sort of fascinating detail I love - somehow it makes cold
history more alive.  Thanks.

A J


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:58 AM, EileenB
<cherryripe.eileenb@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Ah yes AJ it was the 8th September. According to Pollard "it would appear
> that he (Edward) set off on 2 August to meet his father at Pontefract,
> travelling via York and riding in a chariot with two guards "rynning on
> fote by side" (Horrox and Hammond.)
>
> Ive checked that out and it was Metcalff & Pacok (me: God Bless them!)
>
> "vj viij d to Metcalff & Pacok for Rynnyng on fote by side my lord prince"
> HM 2.25
>
> I thought ha...this does not mention a chariot, maybe he was riding a
> horse...but a few lines later on...
>
> "vjsvd ob for thexpenses of my lord prince chariot from York to Pountfret
> and there"
>
> This is sometimes pointed out to mean that Edward was a sickly
> child...however there is hope this may not be the reason for the chariot
> for a little further on :
>
> "viij s ij d for thexpenses of my lord prince horsse at York"...thus we
> know that my lord prince was fit enough to ride a horse...maybe they were
> just being cautious in the chariot being used on longer trips...in fact I
> wonder if Edward might have kicked up a little being made to ride in a
> chariot..who knows...all lost in the mists of time..Eileen
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Were these for the Prince's investiture? Aug 31 to Sep 8 doesn't seem
> like
> > a lot of time for all the message to get where it needed to go (or was it
> > close by?) & then all that stuff to travel back.
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:23 AM, EileenB
> > <cherryripe.eileenb@...>wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > By the king
> > > We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise
> > > parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne
> > > lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of
> Tawney
> > > sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold
> that
> > > one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one
> > > cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett)
> blak
> > > velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney
> > > sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one
> yerde &
> > > iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of
> silke
> > > for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of
> gold
> > > for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a
> > > gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij
> yerdes and
> > > oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij
> > > paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white
> parcelle
> > > gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse
> > > trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the
> Trinite/one
> > > banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint
> Cuthbert/one
> > > of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne
> gold
> > > for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with
> bukeram/xl
> > > trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI
> penselles
> > > of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of
> > > fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the
> last
> > > day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
> > > To Piers Curteys
> > >
> > > Harleian Manuscript II, 42
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

From: EileenB
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King.......


> Its a mystery Pamela...I'll give you that...another blooming mystery...:0/

As opposed to the mystery knickers, which are a bloomers mystery.

I looked it up in the online Conside Oxford and it says:

"Stomacher: a V-shaped piece of decorative cloth, worn over the chest and
stomach by men and women in the 16th century, later only by women."

So they may well be for Richard himself to wear, but either way this text
shows that stomachers were in use at least 17 years earlier than the Oxford
thinks.

Here I am with another foray into Willett and Cunnington, English Mediaeval Costume this time. It tells me that men's stomachers were separate chest pieces worn to fit into the very deep V (to the waist) of some doublets between 1480s and 1490s. Warme your soverayne his petticotte, his doublett and his stomacher... (Boke of Karvyng', late fifteenth century) OK, having come unstuck with the braies, I'm not about to even attempt to explain what men's petticottes may have been! And BTW, the doublet illustrated for this is very short indeed and displays a very prominent codpiece. No comment. Absolutely. Except it would probably be a breach of the peace today.

From: Claire M Jordan
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 2:26 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King.......

From: EileenB
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:23 PM
Subject: Clothes fit for a King.......

> /oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/

Isn't a stomacher a purely female garment? In which case, some of this
stuff is presumably for Ann. Would a gowne be male, female or can't tell?

EileenB wrote:

"The stomachers I know of are from the Georgian period...they were richly
embroidered and many still survive...the pointy bit which pinned on under
the lacings of the front of the gown...gorgious so very gorgious...but what
a Stomagere/Stomachere as part of the medieval man's costume was I know
not..."

How about a medieval cummerbund?
Doug

From: SandraMachin
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King.......


> Here I am with another foray into Willett and Cunnington, English
> Mediaeval Costume this time. It tells me that men's stomachers were
> separate chest pieces worn to fit into the very deep V (to the waist) of
> some doublets between 1480s and 1490s. Warme your soverayne his
> petticotte, his doublett and his stomacher... (Boke of Karvyng', late
> fifteenth century) OK, having come unstuck with the braies, I'm not about
> to even attempt to explain what men's petticottes may have been! And BTW,
> the doublet illustrated for this is very short indeed and displays a very
> prominent codpiece. No comment. Absolutely. Except it would probably be a
> breach of the peace today.

I always liked the scene in Fortune's Wheel by Rhoda Edwards, where Richard
goes to collect Ann from the cookshop and there's a drunken party going on,
including a man "who, with the extreme care of the very drunk, was engaged
in tying the ribbons on his codpiece into bows." [And the lady of the house
thinks that Richard's own hose are so tight that any son of hers dressed
like that would be whipped for indecency.]

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> By the king
> We wolle & charge you to deliver unto the bringere hereof for us thise parcelles folowing that it to say First one doublet of purpille satyne lyned with holand clothe and entrelynes with Buske/one doublet of Tawney sattayne lyned in likewise/ij short gownes of Cremsyne clothe of gold that one with droppis & that othere with nettes lyned with grene velvet/one cloke with a cape of violet ingraned the bothe lyned with (violett) blak velvet/oone Stomagere of purpille sattayne/one Stomachere of Tawney sattayne/oone gowne of grene velvet lyned with Tawney sattayne/one yerde & iij quartres corse of sike medled with gold & asmoch blak corse of silke for oure spurres/ij yerdes & a halff & iij nayleles of white cloth of gold for a Cryneire for a Barde/fyve yerdes of black velvet for lynyng of a gowne of grene sattayne/one plakcard made of part of the said ij yerdes and oon halff and ij nayles of white cloth of gold lyned with bukeramm/iij paire of Sporres short alle gilt/ij paire of spurres long white parcelle gilt/ij yerdes of blak bokeram for amending the lynyng of diverse trappors/oone Banere of Sarcenet of oure lady/one Banere of the Trinite/one banere of Seint George/one banere of Seint Edward/one of seint Cuthbert/one of oure awne Armes alle sarcenet/iij Cotes of Armes betynewith fyne gold for oure owne persone/fyve Cote Armors for heraultes lyned with bukeram/xl trumpet baners of sarcenet/(DCCix)DCCxl penselles of Bokeram/CCCI penselles of Tarteryn/iiij Standerdes of sarcenet with bores/xiijM Quynysans of fustyane with bores/And thise oure lettres etc Yevene etc at York the last day of August the first yere of oure Reigne
> To Piers Curteys
>
> Harleian Manuscript II, 42
>
Carol responds:

This is the order that Richard sent from York for Prince Edward's investiture as Prince of Wales, right? (The messenger was our friend Sir James Tyrell.) I can't tell whether all those clothes are for Richard. Some of them may have been for Anne or Prince Edward. A stomacher, for example, could be a woman's garment. On the other hand, he doesn't specify sizes, and Piers Curteys would have his measurements handy, so maybe they are all for him (except the ones for five "heraultes." Could the short spurs be for little Edward?

Carol

I would think it very likely....although it doesnt state that...

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> This is the order that Richard sent from York for Prince Edward's investiture as Prince of Wales, right? (The messenger was our friend Sir James Tyrell.)
> Carol
>

Eileen wrote:
>
> Ah yes AJ it was the 8th September. According to Pollard "it would appear that he (Edward) set off on 2 August to meet his father at Pontefract, travelling via York and riding in a chariot with two guards "rynning on fote by side" (Horrox and Hammond.)
[snip]
> This is sometimes pointed out to mean that Edward was a sickly child...however there is hope this may not be the reason for the chariot for a little further on :
>
> "viij s ij d for thexpenses of my lord prince horsse at York"...thus we know that my lord prince was fit enough to ride a horse...maybe they were just being cautious in the chariot being used on longer trips...in fact I wonder if Edward might have kicked up a little being made to ride in a chariot..who knows...all lost in the mists of time..Eileen

Carol responds:

Yes, I reached similar conclusions on reading the expenses for Prince Edward in Hammond and Sutton's "The Road to Bosworth."

But what was a "chariot"? Obviously, it was slow enough for two men to run alongside--nothing like an ancient Roman chariot. Was it a litter or more like a carriage? I thought that enclosed carriages didn't come along until the Elizabethan era. Maybe it was an elaborate wagon lined with cushions?

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=1972&HistoryID=ab79>rack=pthc

Carol

Claire wrote:

> Isn't a stomacher a purely female garment? In which case, some of this stuff is presumably for Ann. Would a gowne be male, female or can't tell?
>
Carol responds:

I thought the same thing and looked it up. Apparently, both men and women wore stomachers in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. They didn't become a specifically female garment until later:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stomacher

"Towards the end of the fifteenth century both men and women's costume changes. For men the white linen shirt (worn as an undergarment) is exposed at the neck and sleeves. The top garment is open from the neck to waist and the space is filled with a stomacher, which was often highly decorated. On occasion a long gown was worn with turned back lapels and slits for the arms. Shoes changed from being pointed to square toed."

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CG9To5Yx-x8/SU91D_XabpI/AAAAAAAAE2o/-vuf2FMVFac/s400/Latec15.jpg

http://historyofembroidery.blogspot.com/p/1300-1399ad.html

Men definitely wore gowns (long and short) in the fifteenth century, as we can see in the de Wavrin painting and elsewhere.

Someone might want to quote excerpts from "Coronation of Richard III: The Extant Documents" for comparison with this order to Piers Curteys.

Carol

Hi, Carol et al.,

I've seen better looking (i.e., more richly appointed) versions in manuscripts, but maybe the "carriage" in question was basically like this, only perhaps smaller:

http://skyshi.deviantart.com/art/Medieval-carriage-183748132


A rather Conestoga-style, but with a side entry. (And possibly a prototype of the so-called "Gypsy caravan"?) In Olivier's RIII, there's a lovely open-framed carriage with draperies, but I'm unsure if I've ever seen one of these in a painting....

Here are a few more, all slightly different; I believe the last to be early 16th C.:

http://classes.bnf.fr/echecs/grand/6_16.htm

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMIN.ASP?Size=mid&IllID=44494

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMIN.ASP?Size=mid&IllID=37695


Having shot my credibility in re: under garments, I won't place any wagers on the accuracy of these :-)

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King.......



 

Eileen wrote:
>
> Ah yes AJ it was the 8th September. According to Pollard "it would appear that he (Edward) set off on 2 August to meet his father at Pontefract, travelling via York and riding in a chariot with two guards "rynning on fote by side" (Horrox and Hammond.)
[snip]
> This is sometimes pointed out to mean that Edward was a sickly child...however there is hope this may not be the reason for the chariot for a little further on :
>
> "viij s ij d for thexpenses of my lord prince horsse at York"...thus we know that my lord prince was fit enough to ride a horse...maybe they were just being cautious in the chariot being used on longer trips...in fact I wonder if Edward might have kicked up a little being made to ride in a chariot..who knows...all lost in the mists of time..Eileen

Carol responds:

Yes, I reached similar conclusions on reading the expenses for Prince Edward in Hammond and Sutton's "The Road to Bosworth."

But what was a "chariot"? Obviously, it was slow enough for two men to run alongside--nothing like an ancient Roman chariot. Was it a litter or more like a carriage? I thought that enclosed carriages didn't come along until the Elizabethan era. Maybe it was an elaborate wagon lined with cushions?

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=1972&HistoryID=ab79>rack=pthc

Carol

Eileen wrote:
>...thus we know that my lord prince was fit enough to ride a horse...maybe they were just being cautious in the chariot being used on longer trips...in fact I wonder if Edward might have kicked up a little being made to ride in a chariot..who knows...all lost in the mists of time.


Weds writes:
He may have been grateful for the chariot as I can't see him as a child who was accustomed to riding a horse all day. Unless he had one that was incredibly comfortable to ride (short-coupled? Icelandic?), he'd want that chariot after a few hours.

Yes, Papa could ride all day and the prince may have desperately wanted to emulate Papa. But....

~Weds

Claire wrote:
> Great post. Sounds like he really put a lot of thought into it - so maybe
> he *did* choose the clothes Ann and Liz wore at Christmas!

/open fantasy

ANNE: What do you think of the purple?

RICHARD: Lovely.

ANNE: What do you think of the crimson?

RICHARD: Lovely.

ANNE: They can't both be lovely. Pick one.

RICHARD: No. Order both and make two dresses. You'll look lovely in them.

ANNE: <falls in love all over again>

/close fantasy


/open reality

ANNE: What do you think? Purple or crimson?

RICHARD: Hmm? What?

ANNE: Purple or crimson?

RICHARD: What are you talking about?

ANNE: Oh, honestly! Never mind, I'll get both.

/close reality

Yes ma'am......even those who have an "actual" prince may encounter those conversations!

On May 28, 2013, at 2:05 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...<mailto:wednesday.mac@...>> wrote:



Claire wrote:
> Great post. Sounds like he really put a lot of thought into it - so maybe
> he *did* choose the clothes Ann and Liz wore at Christmas!

/open fantasy

ANNE: What do you think of the purple?

RICHARD: Lovely.

ANNE: What do you think of the crimson?

RICHARD: Lovely.

ANNE: They can't both be lovely. Pick one.

RICHARD: No. Order both and make two dresses. You'll look lovely in them.

ANNE: <falls in love all over again>

/close fantasy

/open reality

ANNE: What do you think? Purple or crimson?

RICHARD: Hmm? What?

ANNE: Purple or crimson?

RICHARD: What are you talking about?

ANNE: Oh, honestly! Never mind, I'll get both.

/close reality

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Carol et al.,
>
> I've seen better looking (i.e., more richly appointed) versions in manuscripts, but maybe the "carriage" in question was basically like this, only perhaps smaller:
>
> http://skyshi.deviantart.com/art/Medieval-carriage-183748132
>
>
> A rather Conestoga-style, but with a side entry. (And possibly a prototype of the so-called "Gypsy caravan"?) In Olivier's RIII, there's a lovely open-framed carriage with draperies, but I'm unsure if I've ever seen one of these in a painting....
>
> Here are a few more, all slightly different; I believe the last to be early 16th C.:
>
> http://classes.bnf.fr/echecs/grand/6_16.htm
>
> http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMIN.ASP?Size=mid&IllID=44494
>
> http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMIN.ASP?Size=mid&IllID=37695

Carol responds:

Thanks, Judy! So they *were* like wagons as opposed to what we usually think of as a carriage:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o271/morag-clark/Irishstatecoach_zpsd8f3b369.jpg

or even http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6232/6208189387_57b0bb5657_o.jpg

(not to mention what we think of as a chariot, which wouldn't be at all suitable for a little boy:

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ce03fce1732f.jpg

Was a litter ever referred to as a chariot?

http://www.essexvoicespast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/elizabeth-procession-portrait-Robert-Peake-the-Elder-1551%E2%80%931619.jpg

I can see little Edward being carried this way (and hating it).

Carol



Thanks very much, Judy

You're very welcome, Carol.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Clothes fit for a King...Carriage?



 


--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Carol et al.,
>
> I've seen better looking (i.e., more richly appointed) versions in manuscripts, but maybe the "carriage" in question was basically like this, only perhaps smaller:
>
> http://skyshi.deviantart.com/art/Medieval-carriage-183748132
>
>
> A rather Conestoga-style, but with a side entry. (And possibly a prototype of the so-called "Gypsy caravan"?) In Olivier's RIII, there's a lovely open-framed carriage with draperies, but I'm unsure if I've ever seen one of these in a painting....
>
> Here are a few more, all slightly different; I believe the last to be early 16th C.:
>
> http://classes.bnf.fr/echecs/grand/6_16.htm
>
> http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMIN.ASP?Size=mid&IllID=44494
>
> http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMIN.ASP?Size=mid&IllID=37695

Carol responds:

Thanks, Judy! So they *were* like wagons as opposed to what we usually think of as a carriage:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o271/morag-clark/Irishstatecoach_zpsd8f3b369.jpg

or even http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6232/6208189387_57b0bb5657_o.jpg

(not to mention what we think of as a chariot, which wouldn't be at all suitable for a little boy:

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ce03fce1732f.jpg

Was a litter ever referred to as a chariot?

http://www.essexvoicespast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/elizabeth-procession-portrait-Robert-Peake-the-Elder-1551%E2%80%931619.jpg

I can see little Edward being carried this way (and hating it).

Carol

Thanks very much, Judy