APossible second wives for Richard. And any more about Anne. Plus

Posted by Marie Walsh, I think


If I recall, one of
the brides Richard was considering before Bosworth was actually one
of the Conmenas, so the dreams of restoring Constantinople (which
fell to the Turks when he was less than a year old) seem pretty real.


I've never heard this one before. Who was this lady? What evidence is
given for this? If it's correct it shows an idealistic streak, as marrying
a member of an exiled royal family would not strengthen diplomatic ties with
other rulers.

I'm aware of the evidence for the argument that Richard was going to marry
Elizabeth of York, which never happened, whether it was considered
seriously or not. I know the evidence for the negotiations for Joanna of
Portugal (and possibly marrying Elizabeth off to Manuel, Duke of Beja at the
same time). The other alleged possible bride for the widowed Richard I've
seen mentioned is a daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. What is the
evidence for this? If there is evidence, which daughter was suggested?


Back to Richard's first wife. Thanks for your post about this Marie. I'm
sure I read once, here or on lmb, that someone pointed out the
servants/ladies in waiting we know Anne had. Could someone post this list
of servants again? Also what was the name of her half-sister, Warwick's
bastard?

Finally I've read about this Cely memorandum recording rumours after
Hastings' execution. Which book says that there are coded symbols in it too
and how can I find out what they mean? Also what does the quotation from
the St Albans abbey chronicle about Hastings' execution say because I've
heard of it but never read it.


Thanks.

Joanne

The other alleged possible bride for the widowed Richard I've
seen mentioned is a daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. What is the
evidence for this? If there is evidence, which daughter was suggested?


Thanks.

Joanne
---------------------------
I don't recall any real mention of this, but if there was, the likeliest
candidate might have been the eldest daughter, Isabel: she was born in
1470, and would have been a marriageable 15 years old in 1485. But the
implications for her seem to have been for Portugal from very early on.
Juana, the next daughter, had been born November 6, 1479, only 6 in
1485, and way too young to start a family as quickly as Richard would
have needed to do. So the odds are sort of against a daughter of the
Catholic Kings for Richard, unless the prospect of young Isabel as a
queen of England might have been too good to pass up. That might have
been interesting.

We don't know much about young Isabel except that she was so pious that
her mother's nickname for her was "madre". After being widowed within
months (or weeks) after her marriage to prince Afonso of Portugal (he
was killed in a horse-riding accident), she wanted to retire from the
world and join a convent (interestingly like her relative, Joana of
Portugal). As it was, she married Manuel of Portugal in 1498, but died
in childbirth. Her little son, Miguel, who, after much wrangling by the
Catholic Kings -- by this time bereft of their only son Juan, and trying
like the dickens to keep the Habsburgs out of Spain -- might have united
the entire peninsula, died in babyhood. You can see his coffin in the
crypt of Granada's cathedral, keeping company with Isabel, Fernando,
Juana and Philip the Handsome.

In any case, young Isabel may not have been an ideal match for Richard,
but of course, we'll never know.

Incidentally, I think that in 1485, Margaret of Austria was still in
France, presumed fiancée to the Dauphin, future Charles VIII, so she was
out of marriage picture till 1493, when Charles threw her over for Anne
of Brittany. Now *she* might have been an interesting consort for
England, being quick, witty, intelligent, and not slow to learn from the
women she'd lived with (Margaret of York, Anne de Beaujeu, Isabel the
Catholic). But again, in 1485, she was living in France, being trained
as bride to heir to the throne.

Maria
Elena@...

--- In , "Maria" <elena@p...>
wrote:
>
> ---------------------------
> I don't recall any real mention of this, but if there was, the
likeliest
> candidate might have been the eldest daughter, Isabel: she was
born in
> 1470, and would have been a marriageable 15 years old in 1485. But
the
> implications for her seem to have been for Portugal from very early
on.
> Juana, the next daughter, had been born November 6, 1479, only 6 in
> 1485, and way too young to start a family as quickly as Richard
would
> have needed to do. So the odds are sort of against a daughter of
the
> Catholic Kings for Richard, unless the prospect of young Isabel as a
> queen of England might have been too good to pass up. That might
have
> been interesting.

> We don't know much about young Isabel except that she was so pious
that
> her mother's nickname for her was "madre". After being widowed
within
> months (or weeks) after her marriage to prince Afonso of Portugal
(he
> was killed in a horse-riding accident), she wanted to retire from
the
> world and join a convent (interestingly like her relative, Joana of
> Portugal). As it was, she married Manuel of Portugal in 1498, but
died
> in childbirth. Her little son, Miguel, who, after much wrangling
by the
> Catholic Kings -- by this time bereft of their only son Juan, and
trying
> like the dickens to keep the Habsburgs out of Spain -- might have
united
> the entire peninsula, died in babyhood. You can see his coffin in
the
> crypt of Granada's cathedral, keeping company with Isabel, Fernando,
> Juana and Philip the Handsome.
>
> In any case, young Isabel may not have been an ideal match for
Richard,
> but of course, we'll never know.
>
> Thanks for that Maria.

I've re-checked the evidence for the Portuguese marriage
negotiations, and I think I've found where the idea that Ferdinand
and Isabella were negotiating for one of their daughters to marry
Richard comes from.

In the Ricardian, No 80, March 1983, there's an article by Barrie
Williams, The Portuguese Connection and the Significance of 'the Holy
Princess'. This concludes:

"Whatever pressure was upon Portugal in 1485, no such constraint was
on Spain. Yet apparently Ferdinand and Isabella were as willing that
Richard should marry their eldest daughter as John II that he should
marry his sister." However, he gives no source for this statement.

The Portuguese Connection: A Communication by Doreen Court appeared
in the Ricardian, no 81, June 1983, responding to Barrie Williams.
This also states, "…Richard had been offered the hand of the fifteen-
year-old daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain…" but again,
there is no footnote backing up this claim.

So I checked the extract from the Portuguese book O Mosteiro De Jesus
de Aveiro (The Convent of Jesus at Aveiro) by Father Domingos
Mauricio Gomes dos Santos, translated by Rev Barrie Williams, which
is in the British Richard III Society non-fiction library. I suspect
this may be the source. It quotes a meeting of the Portuguese
Council reported by an eyewitness called Alvaro Lopes (whoever he
was) where the Councillors advised King John (Joao) that his sister
Joanna (Joana) should marry the King of England. They predicted dire
consequences if she did not:

"…if this marriage does not take place, it seems possible to lose
what has already been arranged; and in particular it will be possible
[for the King of England] to marry the Infanta Isabella of Castile,
and make an alliance with the King and Queen of that country and make
them hostile and opposed to us … and if this marriage were abandoned,
it would be convenient for the King of England to marry straight away
and enable the rulers of Castile to give their eldest daughter as
wife, and for this reason to become your enemy…"

Unless anybody knows of any other evidence it seems to me that
there's nothing to support the idea that the Catholic Kings offered
Richard a marriage alliance with Infanta Isabella. It seems from the
contemporary quotation that the Portuguese were scared that it was
something that could happen. This has been misunderstood by later
writers as something that did happen.

Going back to Joanna, I think she and Richard were related. They
shared a common ancestor in John of Gaunt. Philippa of Lancaster,
elder sister of Henry IV, and legitimate, married John I of
Portugal. Her half-sister Joan Beaufort married Ralph Neville, Earl
of Westmorland. Philippa had a son, Duarte, King of Portugal. Joan
was the mother of Cecily Neville. These would be first cousins.
Duarte had a son, Afonso V. Cecily had Richard. These would be
second cousins. Afonso V fathered Joanna. So by my reckoning
Richard and Joanna were second cousins, once removed.

There was also a family connection between Elizabeth of York and
Manuel, Duke of Beja. I think they were third cousins. Afonso had a
brother, Fernando. He was the father of Manuel. Elizabeth,
obviously, was the daughter of Richard's brother, Edward IV.

I've read that the medieval Catholic Church officially forbade
marriages within 4 prohibited degrees of consanguinity. This meant
that you couldn't marry someone with whom you shared a great-great
grandparent. John of Gaunt was Richard's great grandfather. He was
the great-great grandfather of Joanna. So if I've worked it out
properly, doesn't this mean that they would have needed a
dispensation? Similarly, John of Gaunt was the great-great
grandfather of both Elizabeth and Manuel, and they would have needed
a dispensation too. Whose responsibility would it have been to
obtain the dispensations, Richard's or the Portuguese's?

I noticed that Doreen Court's article mentions a Portuguese diplomat
called Rui de Pina. She states that he never mentioned anything
about Richard wanting to marry Joanna in his chronicle. However she
also remarks that he may have been on a diplomatic mission to Rome in
June to September 1485. She doesn't say what this mission was about,
but do you think it's possible that this Rui de Pina was in Rome
trying to get these dispensations on John II's behalf? Does anyone
know if any historian has ever looked in the Vatican archives to try
and find them? If they could be located then it would be independent
documentary confirmation of the Portuguese marriage negotiations.

While I was looking at my articles about Portugal I thought I'd re-
read the Portuguese reference to the death of the Princes, which I
saw a few years ago on the American Richard III society mailing
list. (And which the late Geoffrey Richardson also mentioned in an
article that was re-printed in the Ricardian Register after his
death.)

"And after the passing away of king Edward in the year of 83, another
one of his brothers, the Duke of Gloucester, had in his power the
Prince of Wales and the Duke of York, the young sons of the said king
his brother, and turned them to the Duke of Buckingham, under whose
custody the said Princes were starved to death. And the said
Gloucester, author of this murder out of his desire to be king,
wishing to clear himself of so ugly an event, beheaded the Duke of
Buckingham and rose to kingship..."

In the original Portuguese, it says:

"E depois do falecimento del Rej Duarte que foj no anno de 83 outro
seu
jrmão o Duque de Grosetia ouue a seu poder o Princepe de Gales e o
Duque
d Eorca que erão moços filhos do dito Rej seu jrmão e os entregou ao
Duque de Boquincom que os tiuesse em cujo poder os ditos Princepes
forão
mortos a fame, e os ditos de Grosetra que desta morte era autor por se
alcar por Rej querendo sse de tam feo caso alimpar degolou o Duque de
Boquincom e alçou sse por Rej ..."

I noticed that this reference is from someone called Alvaro Lopes de
Chaves. He was the private secretary of Afonso V, and therefore
someone connected to the Portuguese government. I have never made
the connection before but do you think this could be the same person
as the Alvaro Lopes mentioned as an eye witness at the council
meeting which discussed the proposed marriage of Richard to Joanna?

The person who first pointed out this reference claimed it was found
in a little known codex (16th c.), copied from a manuscript belonging
to Alvaro Lopes de Chaves, in which he narrated events that happened
before 1489. Next to the reference, Lopes clearly mentions the date
as 1488, third year of Henry VII's reign.

If anyone wants to follow this up, the reference to the princes is in
Alvaro Lopes de Chaves, Livro de Apontamentos (1438-1489), (Codice
443 da Coleccao Pombalina da B.N.L.), Imprensa Nacional - Casa da
Moeda, Lisboa, 1983 and is supposed to be available in a Portuguese
paperback.

I don't read Portuguese but I'd guess that Livro de Apontamentos
translates roughly as book of appointments. Could it be better
translated as diary? Because footnote 5 of Doreen Court's article
refers to the Diaries of Alvaro Lopes, which makes me think that the
private secretary was the man at the council meeting.

Joanne

> I've re-checked the evidence for the Portuguese marriage
> negotiations, and I think I've found where the idea that Ferdinand
> and Isabella were negotiating for one of their daughters to marry
> Richard comes from.
>
> In the Ricardian, No 80, March 1983, there's an article by Barrie
> Williams, The Portuguese Connection and the Significance of 'the
Holy
> Princess'. This concludes:
>
> "Whatever pressure was upon Portugal in 1485, no such constraint
was
> on Spain. Yet apparently Ferdinand and Isabella were as willing
that
> Richard should marry their eldest daughter as John II that he
should
> marry his sister." However, he gives no source for this statement.
>
> The Portuguese Connection: A Communication by Doreen Court appeared
> in the Ricardian, no 81, June 1983, responding to Barrie Williams.
> This also states, "…Richard had been offered the hand of the
fifteen-
> year-old daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain…" but again,
> there is no footnote backing up this claim.
>
> So I checked the extract from the Portuguese book O Mosteiro De
Jesus
> de Aveiro (The Convent of Jesus at Aveiro) by Father Domingos
> Mauricio Gomes dos Santos, translated by Rev Barrie Williams, which
> is in the British Richard III Society non-fiction library. I
suspect
> this may be the source. It quotes a meeting of the Portuguese
> Council reported by an eyewitness called Alvaro Lopes (whoever he
> was) where the Councillors advised King John (Joao) that his sister
> Joanna (Joana) should marry the King of England. They predicted
dire
> consequences if she did not:
>
> "…if this marriage does not take place, it seems possible to lose
> what has already been arranged; and in particular it will be
possible
> [for the King of England] to marry the Infanta Isabella of Castile,
> and make an alliance with the King and Queen of that country and
make
> them hostile and opposed to us … and if this marriage were
abandoned,
> it would be convenient for the King of England to marry straight
away
> and enable the rulers of Castile to give their eldest daughter as
> wife, and for this reason to become your enemy…"
>
> Unless anybody knows of any other evidence it seems to me that
> there's nothing to support the idea that the Catholic Kings offered
> Richard a marriage alliance with Infanta Isabella. It seems from
the
> contemporary quotation that the Portuguese were scared that it was
> something that could happen. This has been misunderstood by later
> writers as something that did happen.

I know of no other evidence. However, it seems logical that such an
offer might have been made. Certainly, Isabella of Spain was anxious
for an alliance with Richard. Again, there is no evidence, but it has
been suggested in some old ricardian article that de Sasiola's
embassy to Richard in 1483 broached the subject of a marriage
between one of Ferdinand and Isabella's daughters and Edward of
Middleham; this for me idea is supported by the fact that de Sasiola
reported first to Queen Anne at Windsor, and that it was she who
brought & introduced him to Richard at Warwick - queens were
traditionally involved in the marriage negotiations for their
children.
So, after the death of Edward and Queen Anne, it would seem logical
that Spain would have looked to provide a bride for Richard himself.
I realise this is piling surmise on surmise.

>
> Going back to Joanna, I think she and Richard were related. They
> shared a common ancestor in John of Gaunt. Philippa of Lancaster,
> elder sister of Henry IV, and legitimate, married John I of
> Portugal. Her half-sister Joan Beaufort married Ralph Neville,
Earl
> of Westmorland. Philippa had a son, Duarte, King of Portugal.
Joan
> was the mother of Cecily Neville. These would be first cousins.
> Duarte had a son, Afonso V. Cecily had Richard. These would be
> second cousins. Afonso V fathered Joanna. So by my reckoning
> Richard and Joanna were second cousins, once removed.

Which is exactly the reason Richard might have wanted such a match.
Both the Spanish and Portuguese royal houses, if I remember rightly,
claimed descent from John of Gaunt and Blanche of Lancaster (I need
to check this), and therefore possessed what remained of the true
Lancastrian claim.

>
>> I noticed that Doreen Court's article mentions a Portuguese
diplomat
> called Rui de Pina. She states that he never mentioned anything
> about Richard wanting to marry Joanna in his chronicle. However
she
> also remarks that he may have been on a diplomatic mission to Rome
in
> June to September 1485. She doesn't say what this mission was
about,
> but do you think it's possible that this Rui de Pina was in Rome
> trying to get these dispensations on John II's behalf? Does anyone
> know if any historian has ever looked in the Vatican archives to
try
> and find them?

I doubt it. Wherever I have read of dispensations in "these islands"
the stated source is a native one, not from the Vatican. I have heard
there are no end of papers in the Vatican Archives that have never
been studied (many being, as I have been told, unsorted English
church records smuggled out during the Reformation); there are not a
few people, I think, who would love to see a proper study of these. I
don't know whether the problem lies with access or with the sheer
volunme of material involved; I have heard both.

If they could be located then it would be independent
> documentary confirmation of the Portuguese marriage negotiations.
>
> While I was looking at my articles about Portugal I thought I'd re-
> read the Portuguese reference to the death of the Princes, which I
> saw a few years ago on the American Richard III society mailing
> list. (And which the late Geoffrey Richardson also mentioned in an
> article that was re-printed in the Ricardian Register after his
> death.)
>
> "And after the passing away of king Edward in the year of 83,
another
> one of his brothers, the Duke of Gloucester, had in his power the
> Prince of Wales and the Duke of York, the young sons of the said
king
> his brother, and turned them to the Duke of Buckingham, under whose
> custody the said Princes were starved to death. And the said
> Gloucester, author of this murder out of his desire to be king,
> wishing to clear himself of so ugly an event, beheaded the Duke of
> Buckingham and rose to kingship..."
>
> In the original Portuguese, it says:
>
> "E depois do falecimento del Rej Duarte que foj no anno de 83 outro
> seu
> jrmão o Duque de Grosetia ouue a seu poder o Princepe de Gales e o
> Duque
> d Eorca que erão moços filhos do dito Rej seu jrmão e os entregou ao
> Duque de Boquincom que os tiuesse em cujo poder os ditos Princepes
> forão
> mortos a fame, e os ditos de Grosetra que desta morte era autor por
se
> alcar por Rej querendo sse de tam feo caso alimpar degolou o Duque
de
> Boquincom e alçou sse por Rej ..."

Interesting. This is just one more foreign source pointing a finger
in Buckingham's direction. If there is any truth in this, it can only
have happened after Richard had left London. Even if there was no
knowledge behind these rumours, do they suggest that Buckingham was
known to have lingered in London after Richard set out on progresss?
>
> I noticed that this reference is from someone called Alvaro Lopes
de
> Chaves. He was the private secretary of Afonso V, and therefore
> someone connected to the Portuguese government. I have never made
> the connection before but do you think this could be the same
person
> as the Alvaro Lopes mentioned as an eye witness at the council
> meeting which discussed the proposed marriage of Richard to Joanna?
>
> The person who first pointed out this reference claimed it was
found
> in a little known codex (16th c.), copied from a manuscript
belonging
> to Alvaro Lopes de Chaves, in which he narrated events that
happened
> before 1489. Next to the reference, Lopes clearly mentions the
date
> as 1488, third year of Henry VII's reign.

So either the year is wrong, or Buckingham is wrong. Have you
considered how easy it is to mix up 3 and 8, either in arabic or
roman? In arabic it is the sheer similarity in form of the numbers,
in roman just a case of including or not including a v - I've made
the error myself in transcription.

>
> If anyone wants to follow this up, the reference to the princes is
in
> Alvaro Lopes de Chaves, Livro de Apontamentos (1438-1489), (Codice
> 443 da Coleccao Pombalina da B.N.L.), Imprensa Nacional - Casa da
> Moeda, Lisboa, 1983 and is supposed to be available in a Portuguese
> paperback.

Thanks.. May look into that (do best pulling tog. rusty Spanish &
French)
>
> I don't read Portuguese but I'd guess that Livro de Apontamentos
> translates roughly as book of appointments. Could it be better
> translated as diary? Because footnote 5 of Doreen Court's article
> refers to the Diaries of Alvaro Lopes, which makes me think that
the
> private secretary was the man at the council meeting.

Sounds reasonable to me,

Marie

> >
> > Going back to Joanna, I think she and Richard were related.
They
> > shared a common ancestor in John of Gaunt. Philippa of
Lancaster,
> > elder sister of Henry IV, and legitimate, married John I of
> > Portugal. Her half-sister Joan Beaufort married Ralph Neville,
> Earl
> > of Westmorland. Philippa had a son, Duarte, King of Portugal.
> Joan
> > was the mother of Cecily Neville. These would be first
cousins.
> > Duarte had a son, Afonso V. Cecily had Richard. These would be
> > second cousins. Afonso V fathered Joanna. So by my reckoning
> > Richard and Joanna were second cousins, once removed.
> > Marie

Of John of Gaunt's offspring, his eldest daughter by Blanche,
Philippa, married king John I of Portugal as you say; his daughter
Catalina by Constance of Castile married Henry of Castile (her
cousin if I remember correctly). How far was half blood taken into
account in working out kinship like this? Joan and Philippa were
only half sisters, so I am wondering how far exactly the same rules
apply, does anyone know? Of course there's nothing unusual about
marrying within the limits of consanguinity permitted by the church.
Ironically Eleanor of Aquitaine was divorced from Louis on these
grounds and then maried Henry Plantagenet with whom she stood in
precisely the same degree of consanguinity!
B

>
> I know of no other evidence. However, it seems logical that such an
> offer might have been made. Certainly, Isabella of Spain was
anxious
> for an alliance with Richard. Again, there is no evidence, but it
has
> been suggested in some old ricardian article that de Sasiola's
> embassy to Richard in 1483 broached the subject of a marriage
> between one of Ferdinand and Isabella's daughters and Edward of
> Middleham; this for me idea is supported by the fact that de
Sasiola
> reported first to Queen Anne at Windsor, and that it was she who
> brought & introduced him to Richard at Warwick - queens were
> traditionally involved in the marriage negotiations for their
> children.
> So, after the death of Edward and Queen Anne, it would seem logical
> that Spain would have looked to provide a bride for Richard
himself.
> I realise this is piling surmise on surmise.

I too remember a Ricardian article about Isabella of Castile
suggesting a bride for Edward of Middleham. It think it was in issue
73, 80, 81 or 82 because I recall there was an article about the
Portuguese marriage negotiations in the same issue. IIRC Rous is
said to be the original source that claims Isabella offered an
Infanta for the Prince of Wales. I think the Ricardian article
argues that she offered a marriage alliance but her candidate was
someone from Navarre, which had recently come under the influence of
Castile/Aragon. Does anyone know any more about this?
>
Joanne