Clothing Again - Henins

The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
Anyone know? H

As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen



--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> Anyone know? H
>

Thanks Eileen. Must go to Suffolk more; it's lovely but just never seem to get there. There's surprisingly little on the web about henins, and strangely enough about hoods - good job we had Holbein. I have always wondered how the gauze confections, like that in EW's portrait, were 'propped up' - was it with starch or wire. Both must have been quite dangerous, think of the fire risk from sconces and candles etc. 



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 15:41
Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins


 

As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> Anyone know? H
>

Hilary...they had little wires....and possibly the gauze was starched too although they do seem to have been 'floaty'..If you look at the gauze on Margaret of Burgundy's portrait you can clearly see where it has been folded and possibly starched....OMG they would have looked so lovely...much lovelier than the later hoods IMHO. Of course the caps/turn up flowerpots themselves were beautifully decorated...and what about that jewelled collars...!

Yes...I can imagine they were dangerous near lit candles etc., One little move and draft and whoosh! Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Eileen. Must go to Suffolk more; it's lovely but just never seem to get there. There's surprisingly little on the web about henins, and strangely enough about hoods - good job we had Holbein. I have always wondered how the gauze confections, like that in EW's portrait, were 'propped up' - was it with starch or wire. Both must have been quite dangerous, think of the fire risk from sconces and candles etc. 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 15:41
> Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
>
>
>  
>
> As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > Anyone know? H
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

As for gabled hoods, some of the Flemish hennins had lappets (usually black, occasionally red), which looked like front cuffs with side flaps, but may have actually been soft under-hoods, not just trimming...in which case, they might've evolved into the more elaborate gabled hoods. I haven't found any examples of what might be considered transitional [to gabled] hoods earlier than the 1490s, however. Which isn't to say they didn't exist in the mid 1480s, but we just can't be sure.

If only there were more portraits of English women, specific to 1483 - 1485, *sigh*

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins



 
As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen

--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> Anyone know? H
>

If these links work.....feast your eyes on one of the most beautiful medieval tomb monument I have ever seen. If links dont work please google images of Blanche Mortimer, Lady Grandison, Much Marcle....Although a hundred years earlier than our period...Blanche died in 1347ish...if you look at her image full frontal it looks to me as if she has the earliest beginning of a gabled headdress...Her feet rest on her little dog and her gown hangs in graceful folds over the top of the monument..it is beautiful enough to make you want to weep...well if you are a wimp like me...



http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/hereford/churches/Much-Marcle/Much-Marcle-7921-20080216_s.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stiffleaf/4323403396/

fingers crossed this works...eileen

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> As for gabled hoods, some of the Flemish hennins had lappets (usually black, occasionally red), which looked like front cuffs with side flaps, but may have actually been soft under-hoods, not just trimming...in which case, they might've evolved into the more elaborate gabled hoods. I haven't found any examples of what might be considered transitional [to gabled] hoods earlier than the 1490s, however. Which isn't to say they didn't exist in the mid 1480s, but we just can't be sure.
>
> If only there were more portraits of English women, specific to 1483 - 1485, *sigh*
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
>
>
>
>  
> As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > Anyone know? H
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> Anyone know? H
>
Carol responds:

Here's a site that I found fascinating (if we ignore the overly dramatic first paragraph and the dismissive attitude toward medievalism).

http://www.fashion-era.com/english-costume/1483-1485-king-richard-iii.htm

How authoritative it is regarding fashion (as opposed to history--for example, she gets Richard's age wrong), I don't know, but it actually focuses on the differences between fashion during Richard's short reign and during those that preceded and followed it. Interestingly, sensible broad-toed shoes became fashionable for men (and presumably women) in place of the pointy-toed things we associate with jesters and George of Clarence.

According to this source, the hennin had its last transformation in Richard's reign and became "[an embroidered] bonnet at the back of the head, with the stiff wimple stretched upon wires." If I recall correctly, Anne, as queen, could have worn her hair long and loose, like that of a bride or maiden, but the ladies of the court would have been stuck wearing hennins of this specific type. Forehead hair and eyebrows were still plucked.

I rather like her contrast between the fashion era that ends (more or less) with Richard's reign and the "follies and fantastics" of the Tudor era: "[W]e leave an age that is quaint, rich, and yet fairly simple, to come to an age of padded hips and farthingales, monstrous ruffs, knee-breeks, rag-stuffed trunks, and high-heeled shoes." Of course, that description sounds more like the era of Henry VIII through Elizabeth I than Henry VII, whose reign (despite historians who see it as a whole new era) was transitional in many respects and retained both the religion and some of the fashion trends (at least early on) of the Yorkist era.

The source used is an early twentieth-century book called "English Costume" by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which would be worth looking into for those who are interested.

Carol

Another beautiful example of a headdress...The Kingmaker's sister...Joan Neville Countess of Arundel....beautiful but I bet they were relieved when they could take them off at the end of the day....

http://tudorqueen6.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/family-of-queen-katherine-lady-joan-countess-of-arundel/

Eileen



--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > Anyone know? H
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Here's a site that I found fascinating (if we ignore the overly dramatic first paragraph and the dismissive attitude toward medievalism).
>
> http://www.fashion-era.com/english-costume/1483-1485-king-richard-iii.htm
>
> How authoritative it is regarding fashion (as opposed to history--for example, she gets Richard's age wrong), I don't know, but it actually focuses on the differences between fashion during Richard's short reign and during those that preceded and followed it. Interestingly, sensible broad-toed shoes became fashionable for men (and presumably women) in place of the pointy-toed things we associate with jesters and George of Clarence.
>
> According to this source, the hennin had its last transformation in Richard's reign and became "[an embroidered] bonnet at the back of the head, with the stiff wimple stretched upon wires." If I recall correctly, Anne, as queen, could have worn her hair long and loose, like that of a bride or maiden, but the ladies of the court would have been stuck wearing hennins of this specific type. Forehead hair and eyebrows were still plucked.
>
> I rather like her contrast between the fashion era that ends (more or less) with Richard's reign and the "follies and fantastics" of the Tudor era: "[W]e leave an age that is quaint, rich, and yet fairly simple, to come to an age of padded hips and farthingales, monstrous ruffs, knee-breeks, rag-stuffed trunks, and high-heeled shoes." Of course, that description sounds more like the era of Henry VIII through Elizabeth I than Henry VII, whose reign (despite historians who see it as a whole new era) was transitional in many respects and retained both the religion and some of the fashion trends (at least early on) of the Yorkist era.
>
> The source used is an early twentieth-century book called "English Costume" by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which would be worth looking into for those who are interested.
>
> Carol
>

Wow - that is indeed beautiful and looks so 'new' - like the 19th century monument to Catherine Parr at Sudeley. And you're right about the hood - a hundred years' before its time 



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 16:27
Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins


 

If these links work.....feast your eyes on one of the most beautiful medieval tomb monument I have ever seen. If links dont work please google images of Blanche Mortimer, Lady Grandison, Much Marcle....Although a hundred years earlier than our period...Blanche died in 1347ish...if you look at her image full frontal it looks to me as if she has the earliest beginning of a gabled headdress...Her feet rest on her little dog and her gown hangs in graceful folds over the top of the monument..it is beautiful enough to make you want to weep...well if you are a wimp like me...

http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/hereford/churches/Much-Marcle/Much-Marcle-7921-20080216_s.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stiffleaf/4323403396/

fingers crossed this works...eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> As for gabled hoods, some of the Flemish hennins had lappets (usually black, occasionally red), which looked like front cuffs with side flaps, but may have actually been soft under-hoods, not just trimming...in which case, they might've evolved into the more elaborate gabled hoods. I haven't found any examples of what might be considered transitional [to gabled] hoods earlier than the 1490s, however. Which isn't to say they didn't exist in the mid 1480s, but we just can't be sure.
>
> If only there were more portraits of English women, specific to 1483 - 1485, *sigh*
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
>
>
>
>  
> As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > Anyone know? H
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I don't think they ever get them right on telly - they look like something out of an amateur battle re-construction, you know, any old dress and cloth over a flowerpot. The French do authentic costume drama so much better than us.



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 15:57
Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins


 

Hilary...they had little wires....and possibly the gauze was starched too although they do seem to have been 'floaty'..If you look at the gauze on Margaret of Burgundy's portrait you can clearly see where it has been folded and possibly starched....OMG they would have looked so lovely...much lovelier than the later hoods IMHO. Of course the caps/turn up flowerpots themselves were beautifully decorated...and what about that jewelled collars...!

Yes...I can imagine they were dangerous near lit candles etc., One little move and draft and whoosh! Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Eileen. Must go to Suffolk more; it's lovely but just never seem to get there. There's surprisingly little on the web about henins, and strangely enough about hoods - good job we had Holbein. I have always wondered how the gauze confections, like that in EW's portrait, were 'propped up' - was it with starch or wire. Both must have been quite dangerous, think of the fire risk from sconces and candles etc. 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 15:41
> Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
>
>
>  
>
> As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > Anyone know? H
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

That's spectacular, Eileen. 

Blanche is wearing a veil and gorget, but there may be some sort of ornament at the top, giving a more tented effect to the veil (especially when carved in stone). The 16th C. gable hoods were distinctly rigid, upholstered things, but there were earlier examples of women's headdresses with what might be called "architectural" features. 

These drawings aren't lavish, but they do show some angularity in certain 14th C. hair and head dressing styles...

http://www.fashion-era.com/hats-hair/hair2-1327-1485-womens-hair-calthrop.htm


Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins



 
If these links work.....feast your eyes on one of the most beautiful medieval tomb monument I have ever seen. If links dont work please google images of Blanche Mortimer, Lady Grandison, Much Marcle....Although a hundred years earlier than our period...Blanche died in 1347ish...if you look at her image full frontal it looks to me as if she has the earliest beginning of a gabled headdress...Her feet rest on her little dog and her gown hangs in graceful folds over the top of the monument..it is beautiful enough to make you want to weep...well if you are a wimp like me...

http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/hereford/churches/Much-Marcle/Much-Marcle-7921-20080216_s.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stiffleaf/4323403396/

fingers crossed this works...eileen

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> As for gabled hoods, some of the Flemish hennins had lappets (usually black, occasionally red), which looked like front cuffs with side flaps, but may have actually been soft under-hoods, not just trimming...in which case, they might've evolved into the more elaborate gabled hoods. I haven't found any examples of what might be considered transitional [to gabled] hoods earlier than the 1490s, however. Which isn't to say they didn't exist in the mid 1480s, but we just can't be sure.
>
> If only there were more portraits of English women, specific to 1483 - 1485, *sigh*
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
>
>
>
>  
> As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > Anyone know? H
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

And the Italians....they have a wonderful festival somewhere..Florence, Sienna??? and the medieval costumes are absolutely gorgious and look spot on...eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think they ever get them right on telly - they look like something out of an amateur battle re-construction, you know, any old dress and cloth over a flowerpot. The French do authentic costume drama so much better than us.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 15:57
> Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
>
>
>  
>
> Hilary...they had little wires....and possibly the gauze was starched too although they do seem to have been 'floaty'..If you look at the gauze on Margaret of Burgundy's portrait you can clearly see where it has been folded and possibly starched....OMG they would have looked so lovely...much lovelier than the later hoods IMHO. Of course the caps/turn up flowerpots themselves were beautifully decorated...and what about that jewelled collars...!
>
> Yes...I can imagine they were dangerous near lit candles etc., One little move and draft and whoosh! Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Eileen. Must go to Suffolk more; it's lovely but just never seem to get there. There's surprisingly little on the web about henins, and strangely enough about hoods - good job we had Holbein. I have always wondered how the gauze confections, like that in EW's portrait, were 'propped up' - was it with starch or wire. Both must have been quite dangerous, think of the fire risk from sconces and candles etc. 
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 15:41
> > Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > > Anyone know? H
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Judy...gorgious, gorgious, gorgious..I thought the costumes in Brave Heart were very realistic....shame about the storyline...especially Isabelle's....who could have failed to look gorgious if you were rich enough to wear such beautiful fabrics....eileen

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> That's spectacular, Eileen. 
>
> Blanche is wearing a veil and gorget, but there may be some sort of ornament at the top, giving a more tented effect to the veil (especially when carved in stone). The 16th C. gable hoods were distinctly rigid, upholstered things, but there were earlier examples of women's headdresses with what might be called "architectural" features. 
>
> These drawings aren't lavish, but they do show some angularity in certain 14th C. hair and head dressing styles...
>
> http://www.fashion-era.com/hats-hair/hair2-1327-1485-womens-hair-calthrop.htm
>
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
>
>
>
>  
> If these links work.....feast your eyes on one of the most beautiful medieval tomb monument I have ever seen. If links dont work please google images of Blanche Mortimer, Lady Grandison, Much Marcle....Although a hundred years earlier than our period...Blanche died in 1347ish...if you look at her image full frontal it looks to me as if she has the earliest beginning of a gabled headdress...Her feet rest on her little dog and her gown hangs in graceful folds over the top of the monument..it is beautiful enough to make you want to weep...well if you are a wimp like me...
>
> http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/hereford/churches/Much-Marcle/Much-Marcle-7921-20080216_s.htm
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stiffleaf/4323403396/
>
> fingers crossed this works...eileen
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > As for gabled hoods, some of the Flemish hennins had lappets (usually black, occasionally red), which looked like front cuffs with side flaps, but may have actually been soft under-hoods, not just trimming...in which case, they might've evolved into the more elaborate gabled hoods. I haven't found any examples of what might be considered transitional [to gabled] hoods earlier than the 1490s, however. Which isn't to say they didn't exist in the mid 1480s, but we just can't be sure.
> >
> > If only there were more portraits of English women, specific to 1483 - 1485, *sigh*
> >
> > Judy
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:41 AM
> > Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> > As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > > Anyone know? H
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I know - I think it's Sienna. But yes, they know how to copy the paintings. We only seem to be able to do Victorian/Edwardian, with a bit of Anne Boleyn thrown in.



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 17:10
Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins


 

And the Italians....they have a wonderful festival somewhere..Florence, Sienna??? and the medieval costumes are absolutely gorgious and look spot on...eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think they ever get them right on telly - they look like something out of an amateur battle re-construction, you know, any old dress and cloth over a flowerpot. The French do authentic costume drama so much better than us.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 15:57
> Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
>
>
>  
>
> Hilary...they had little wires....and possibly the gauze was starched too although they do seem to have been 'floaty'..If you look at the gauze on Margaret of Burgundy's portrait you can clearly see where it has been folded and possibly starched....OMG they would have looked so lovely...much lovelier than the later hoods IMHO. Of course the caps/turn up flowerpots themselves were beautifully decorated...and what about that jewelled collars...!
>
> Yes...I can imagine they were dangerous near lit candles etc., One little move and draft and whoosh! Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Eileen. Must go to Suffolk more; it's lovely but just never seem to get there. There's surprisingly little on the web about henins, and strangely enough about hoods - good job we had Holbein. I have always wondered how the gauze confections, like that in EW's portrait, were 'propped up' - was it with starch or wire. Both must have been quite dangerous, think of the fire risk from sconces and candles etc.à
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 15:41
> > Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins
> >
> >
> > à
> >
> > As far as I know English women did not wear the steeple hennins...this I believe was a Burgundian fashion...As you said Hilary, English women wore the upturned flowerpot version and there are many examples of this on church monuments all over the country. Anyone interested in women's heargear from this time should google the church windows in the beautiful church at Long Melford, Suffolk. Breathtaking....they also have some lovely brasses including a lovely one of a dear little baby in swaddling clothes. Tragically a lot of the brasses were sold off in Georgian period....so very Doh!....Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > > Anyone know? H
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Love it! :-)

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins



 
Another beautiful example of a headdress...The Kingmaker's sister...Joan Neville Countess of Arundel....beautiful but I bet they were relieved when they could take them off at the end of the day....

http://tudorqueen6.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/family-of-queen-katherine-lady-joan-countess-of-arundel/

Eileen

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> > I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> > And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> > So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> > Anyone know? H
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Here's a site that I found fascinating (if we ignore the overly dramatic first paragraph and the dismissive attitude toward medievalism).
>
> http://www.fashion-era.com/english-costume/1483-1485-king-richard-iii.htm
>
> How authoritative it is regarding fashion (as opposed to history--for example, she gets Richard's age wrong), I don't know, but it actually focuses on the differences between fashion during Richard's short reign and during those that preceded and followed it. Interestingly, sensible broad-toed shoes became fashionable for men (and presumably women) in place of the pointy-toed things we associate with jesters and George of Clarence.
>
> According to this source, the hennin had its last transformation in Richard's reign and became "[an embroidered] bonnet at the back of the head, with the stiff wimple stretched upon wires." If I recall correctly, Anne, as queen, could have worn her hair long and loose, like that of a bride or maiden, but the ladies of the court would have been stuck wearing hennins of this specific type. Forehead hair and eyebrows were still plucked.
>
> I rather like her contrast between the fashion era that ends (more or less) with Richard's reign and the "follies and fantastics" of the Tudor era: "[W]e leave an age that is quaint, rich, and yet fairly simple, to come to an age of padded hips and farthingales, monstrous ruffs, knee-breeks, rag-stuffed trunks, and high-heeled shoes." Of course, that description sounds more like the era of Henry VIII through Elizabeth I than Henry VII, whose reign (despite historians who see it as a whole new era) was transitional in many respects and retained both the religion and some of the fashion trends (at least early on) of the Yorkist era.
>
> The source used is an early twentieth-century book called "English Costume" by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which would be worth looking into for those who are interested.
>
> Carol
>

Thanks Carol, it was interesting. Poor old George, why him? PS As for plotters creeping round in 1483, we now know Morton wore black.
 

  

________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2013, 16:27
Subject: Re: Clothing Again - Henins

 



--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> The excerpt posted by Eileen seems to indicate that Richard's clothing is moving more towards what we'd call 'Tudor' style rather than the tight short doublets of the 1460s and 70s. The stomacher is particularly Tudor.
> I've often wondered when the evolution happened - for example when did the henin give way to the gable hood as worn by EOY?
> And did English women ever wear 'steeple henins' as shown in Burgundian pictures or were theirs a version of the 'upturned flowerpot' with the occasional bit of gauze and wire if you were nobility? You don't see many henins on tombstones, but I suppose that would be difficult.
> So was Anne wearing a gable hood by the time she died?
> Anyone know? H
>
Carol responds:

Here's a site that I found fascinating (if we ignore the overly dramatic first paragraph and the dismissive attitude toward medievalism).

http://www.fashion-era.com/english-costume/1483-1485-king-richard-iii.htm

How authoritative it is regarding fashion (as opposed to history--for example, she gets Richard's age wrong), I don't know, but it actually focuses on the differences between fashion during Richard's short reign and during those that preceded and followed it. Interestingly, sensible broad-toed shoes became fashionable for men (and presumably women) in place of the pointy-toed things we associate with jesters and George of Clarence.

According to this source, the hennin had its last transformation in Richard's reign and became "[an embroidered] bonnet at the back of the head, with the stiff wimple stretched upon wires." If I recall correctly, Anne, as queen, could have worn her hair long and loose, like that of a bride or maiden, but the ladies of the court would have been stuck wearing hennins of this specific type. Forehead hair and eyebrows were still plucked.

I rather like her contrast between the fashion era that ends (more or less) with Richard's reign and the "follies and fantastics" of the Tudor era: "[W]e leave an age that is quaint, rich, and yet fairly simple, to come to an age of padded hips and farthingales, monstrous ruffs, knee-breeks, rag-stuffed trunks, and high-heeled shoes." Of course, that description sounds more like the era of Henry VIII through Elizabeth I than Henry VII, whose reign (despite historians who see it as a whole new era) was transitional in many respects and retained both the religion and some of the fashion trends (at least early on) of the Yorkist era.

The source used is an early twentieth-century book called "English Costume" by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which would be worth looking into for those who are interested.

Carol

Carol wrote:

//snip//
"The source used is an early twentieth-century book called "English Costume"
by Dion Clayton Calthrop, which would be worth looking into for those who
are interested."

Doug here:
For what it's worth, the designer who worked for many years with Noel Coward
was Gladys Calthrop (1897-1980); perhaps a relative?

Carol








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