Sir James Tyrell and Elizabeth Woodville

I read that there was a legend around the Estate of Sir James Tyrell that he was visited by Elizabeth Woodville and her sons - which may suggest that they were spirited away to the continent. Sir James Tyrell was also paid an enormous sum of money by Richard III for some undisclosed errand to Flanders - does anyone know anything about this?

I attempted to tackle this subject a number of years ago in a research paper
I wrote for the Canadian branch:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~richardiii/tyrell.html



Tracy





From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of pwhs1
Sent: June-01-13 3:26 PM
To:
Subject: Sir James Tyrell and Elizabeth
Woodville





I read that there was a legend around the Estate of Sir James Tyrell that he
was visited by Elizabeth Woodville and her sons - which may suggest that
they were spirited away to the continent. Sir James Tyrell was also paid an
enormous sum of money by Richard III for some undisclosed errand to Flanders
- does anyone know anything about this?

"pwhs1" <pwhs1@...> wrote:
>
> I read that there was a legend around the Estate of Sir James Tyrell that he was visited by Elizabeth Woodville and her sons - which may suggest that they were spirited away to the continent. Sir James Tyrell was also paid an enormous sum of money by Richard III for some undisclosed errand to Flanders - does anyone know anything about this?
>
Carol responds:

Just search the forum for "Sir James Tyrell" and you'll find a gazillion posts on the topic. Well, a large number at any rate. In the meantime, if you haven't already read Audrey Williamson's "Mystery of the Princes" and Annette Carson's "The Maligned King," you'll find more on the topic in both places. (We've also discussed the nonexistence of Tyrell's confession, almost certainly the invention of Sir Thomas More.)

For the record, I believe that both Sir James and Sir Edward Brampton were involved in smuggling Richard's nephews to Burgundy or Flanders after a stay at Gipping. Not only the enormous sum of money but the evidence of a secret correspondence between Richard and his sister Margaret points in that direction. No proof, of course, but, yes, we've discussed the possibility in some detail.

Carol

........ and neither were at Bosworth.

----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: Sir James Tyrell and Elizabeth Woodville





"pwhs1" <pwhs1@...> wrote:
>
> I read that there was a legend around the Estate of Sir James Tyrell that he was visited by Elizabeth Woodville and her sons - which may suggest that they were spirited away to the continent. Sir James Tyrell was also paid an enormous sum of money by Richard III for some undisclosed errand to Flanders - does anyone know anything about this?
>
Carol responds:

Just search the forum for "Sir James Tyrell" and you'll find a gazillion posts on the topic. Well, a large number at any rate. In the meantime, if you haven't already read Audrey Williamson's "Mystery of the Princes" and Annette Carson's "The Maligned King," you'll find more on the topic in both places. (We've also discussed the nonexistence of Tyrell's confession, almost certainly the invention of Sir Thomas More.)

For the record, I believe that both Sir James and Sir Edward Brampton were involved in smuggling Richard's nephews to Burgundy or Flanders after a stay at Gipping. Not only the enormous sum of money but the evidence of a secret correspondence between Richard and his sister Margaret points in that direction. No proof, of course, but, yes, we've discussed the possibility in some detail.

Carol

That is what is so mysterious.They were both seasoned soldiers and would have been great assets to Richard at Bosworth. To my mind there must have been a more important job that they were doing for Richard.

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ........ and neither were at Bosworth.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 1:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Sir James Tyrell and Elizabeth Woodville
>
>
>
>
>
> "pwhs1" <pwhs1@> wrote:
> >
> > I read that there was a legend around the Estate of Sir James Tyrell that he was visited by Elizabeth Woodville and her sons - which may suggest that they were spirited away to the continent. Sir James Tyrell was also paid an enormous sum of money by Richard III for some undisclosed errand to Flanders - does anyone know anything about this?
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Just search the forum for "Sir James Tyrell" and you'll find a gazillion posts on the topic. Well, a large number at any rate. In the meantime, if you haven't already read Audrey Williamson's "Mystery of the Princes" and Annette Carson's "The Maligned King," you'll find more on the topic in both places. (We've also discussed the nonexistence of Tyrell's confession, almost certainly the invention of Sir Thomas More.)
>
> For the record, I believe that both Sir James and Sir Edward Brampton were involved in smuggling Richard's nephews to Burgundy or Flanders after a stay at Gipping. Not only the enormous sum of money but the evidence of a secret correspondence between Richard and his sister Margaret points in that direction. No proof, of course, but, yes, we've discussed the possibility in some detail.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

But would Richard really have sent two of his most seasoned soldiers when there was such a vital conflict in the offing? No matter how important the secret' job they might have been doing, wouldn't it be more sensible to choose men of less soldiering experience at such a time, but upon whom Richard knew he could place every reliance? There must have been a number to choose from. Richard did not lack loyal adherents of every station and ability. It doesn't seem logical to me, and Richard was always logical. Well, almost always. On this occasion, why send his trusted warhorses when swift loyal ponies would do the job? After all, whatever it was must have been secret, and so would surely not have entailed a large contingent of men-at-arms. If it had been a major matter, involving a large escort and experienced commanders, surely someone would have noted it at the time? Instead there is silence.

Sandra


From: ricard1an
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 12:27 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Sir James Tyrell and Elizabeth Woodville

That is what is so mysterious.They were both seasoned soldiers and would have been great assets to Richard at Bosworth. To my mind there must have been a more important job that they were doing for Richard.

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> But would Richard really have sent two of his most seasoned soldiers when there was such a vital conflict in the offing? No matter how important the ˜secret job they might have been doing, wouldn't it be more sensible to choose men of less soldiering experience at such a time, but upon whom Richard knew he could place every reliance? There must have been a number to choose from. Richard did not lack loyal adherents of every station and ability. It doesn't seem logical to me, and Richard was always logical. Well, almost always. On this occasion, why send his trusted warhorses when swift loyal ponies would do the job? After all, whatever it was must have been secret, and so would surely not have entailed a large contingent of men-at-arms. If it had been a major matter, involving a large escort and experienced commanders, surely someone would have noted it at the time? Instead there is silence.

Carol responds:

First, Brampton may have been involved in the Portuguese marriage negotiations while Tyrell was apparently involved in some dealing with Margaret of York which some of us take to be the safe transport (and disguise?) of Edward's sons. (He was Master of Henchmen, meaning pages, which would certainly have helped. He was also captain at Guisnes and was probably needed there at that moment in case of invasion from that direction.) But trust meant everything to Richard, and he would not trust a mission like the safety of his nephews to a "pony." As for "warhorses," he had Norfolk, Surrey, Northumberland, and his own household knights. That should have been enough, and would have been had Northumberland not held back--or been prevented by some circumstance we don't know about from entering the fray. (If only Richard's heralds had provided us with an unbiased and accurate account, but one of those present was attainted and the other, after suffering the grief and humiliation of leading the horse with his master's body on it, dismissed from service and never heard of again.)

To get back on topic, I don't think Richard felt that he needed either Brampton or Tyrell in the fight against Tudor. He had a much larger army (if you don't include the Stanleys in Tudor's army) and a great deal of military experience. Most modern authorities think that he expected to win. The nonsense about guilty nightmares is just propaganda from a source (Croyland) who was not present and makes at least one egregious error in his account, having "Richmond" attack Richard.

Carol

OK, I'm run through by your trusty lance, Carol. My ponies are back in the stables, munching whatever ponies munch. <g> I take all your points and think you're right and my musings aren't. Wouldn't it be nice if that herald of Richard's, the one who was never heard of again, was actually able to write down everything that happened, and that his record will be found in that creaking old chest, in the darkest crumbling corner of that long-lost cellar...?

Sandra

Carol responds:

First, Brampton may have been involved in the Portuguese marriage negotiations while Tyrell was apparently involved in some dealing with Margaret of York which some of us take to be the safe transport (and disguise?) of Edward's sons. (He was Master of Henchmen, meaning pages, which would certainly have helped. He was also captain at Guisnes and was probably needed there at that moment in case of invasion from that direction.) But trust meant everything to Richard, and he would not trust a mission like the safety of his nephews to a "pony." As for "warhorses," he had Norfolk, Surrey, Northumberland, and his own household knights. That should have been enough, and would have been had Northumberland not held back--or been prevented by some circumstance we don't know about from entering the fray. (If only Richard's heralds had provided us with an unbiased and accurate account, but one of those present was attainted and the other, after suffering the grief and humiliation of leading the horse with his master's body on it, dismissed from service and never heard of again.)

To get back on topic, I don't think Richard felt that he needed either Brampton or Tyrell in the fight against Tudor. He had a much larger army (if you don't include the Stanleys in Tudor's army) and a great deal of military experience. Most modern authorities think that he expected to win. The nonsense about guilty nightmares is just propaganda from a source (Croyland) who was not present and makes at least one egregious error in his account, having "Richmond" attack Richard.

Your next novel?

A J


On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 2:16 PM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> OK, Iým run through by your trusty lance, Carol. My ponies are back in the
> stables, munching whatever ponies munch. <g> I take all your points and
> think youýre right and my musings arenýt. Wouldnýt it be nice if that
> herald of Richardýs, the one who was never heard of again, was actually
> able to write down everything that happened, and that his record will be
> found in that creaking old chest, in the darkest crumbling corner of that
> long-lost cellar...?
>
> Sandra
>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> First, Brampton may have been involved in the Portuguese marriage
> negotiations while Tyrell was apparently involved in some dealing with
> Margaret of York which some of us take to be the safe transport (and
> disguise?) of Edward's sons. (He was Master of Henchmen, meaning pages,
> which would certainly have helped. He was also captain at Guisnes and was
> probably needed there at that moment in case of invasion from that
> direction.) But trust meant everything to Richard, and he would not trust a
> mission like the safety of his nephews to a "pony." As for "warhorses," he
> had Norfolk, Surrey, Northumberland, and his own household knights. That
> should have been enough, and would have been had Northumberland not held
> back--or been prevented by some circumstance we don't know about from
> entering the fray. (If only Richard's heralds had provided us with an
> unbiased and accurate account, but one of those present was attainted and
> the other, after suffering the grief and humiliation of leading the horse
> with his master's body on it, dismissed from service and never heard of
> again.)
>
> To get back on topic, I don't think Richard felt that he needed either
> Brampton or Tyrell in the fight against Tudor. He had a much larger army
> (if you don't include the Stanleys in Tudor's army) and a great deal of
> military experience. Most modern authorities think that he expected to win.
> The nonsense about guilty nightmares is just propaganda from a source
> (Croyland) who was not present and makes at least one egregious error in
> his account, having "Richmond" attack Richard.
>
>
>
>
>

I keep going back to what one of the yeoman warder tour guides at the Tower said (and got into trouble for saying). That when E4 died, the princes became targets. By taking the throne, Richard made himself a target and *protected* them...which falls right in line with Tyrell and Brampton needed elsewhere at the time of Bosworth.

Where "elsewhere" could they have been needed?

--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> That is what is so mysterious.They were both seasoned soldiers and would have been great assets to Richard at Bosworth. To my mind there must have been a more important job that they were doing for Richard.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > ........ and neither were at Bosworth.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: justcarol67
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 1:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: Sir James Tyrell and Elizabeth Woodville
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "pwhs1" <pwhs1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I read that there was a legend around the Estate of Sir James Tyrell that he was visited by Elizabeth Woodville and her sons - which may suggest that they were spirited away to the continent. Sir James Tyrell was also paid an enormous sum of money by Richard III for some undisclosed errand to Flanders - does anyone know anything about this?
> > >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Just search the forum for "Sir James Tyrell" and you'll find a gazillion posts on the topic. Well, a large number at any rate. In the meantime, if you haven't already read Audrey Williamson's "Mystery of the Princes" and Annette Carson's "The Maligned King," you'll find more on the topic in both places. (We've also discussed the nonexistence of Tyrell's confession, almost certainly the invention of Sir Thomas More.)
> >
> > For the record, I believe that both Sir James and Sir Edward Brampton were involved in smuggling Richard's nephews to Burgundy or Flanders after a stay at Gipping. Not only the enormous sum of money but the evidence of a secret correspondence between Richard and his sister Margaret points in that direction. No proof, of course, but, yes, we've discussed the possibility in some detail.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

You begin to read my mind...

-----Original Message-----
From: A J Hibbard
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 8:26 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Sir James Tyrell and Elizabeth
Woodville

Your next novel?

A J

On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 2:16 PM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:
>
> OK, I'm run through by your trusty lance, Carol. My ponies are back in the
> stables, munching whatever ponies munch. <g> I take all your points and
> think you're right and my musings aren't. Wouldn't it be nice if that
> herald of Richard's, the one who was never heard of again, was actually
> able to write down everything that happened, and that his record will be
> found in that creaking old chest, in the darkest crumbling corner of that
> long-lost cellar...?
>