Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)

So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
and several sources site:

Rotherfield in Yorkshire
Bainton in Yorkshire

I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
(estate?) in Yorkshire?

~Weds

It's in Oxfordshire - Rotherfield-Greys. It came to Francis through his mother Alice.
Minster-Lovell is also in Oxfordshire.


________________________________
From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)


 

So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
and several sources site:

Rotherfield in Yorkshire
Bainton in Yorkshire

I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
(estate?) in Yorkshire?

~Weds

Titchmarsh in Northants was the original family seat, surplanted by Minster.

Also consider:

Lands in Shropshire from the Burnells (Acton)

Upholland in Lancashire from the Hollands

Bedale in North Yorks from FitzAlan

Blankney in Lincs was another Deincourt manor (along with Bainton)




________________________________
From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)



 
So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
and several sources site:

Rotherfield in Yorkshire
Bainton in Yorkshire

I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
(estate?) in Yorkshire?

~Weds

Thanks so much for the information on Lovell. I ran across this on a genealogical site:

"Francis Lowell was indeed looked upon by his tenants in Mottram as being of almost equal importance to the king. His word was law, his favour was courted and his anger feared."

My first thought was, "What's your source?" My second thought was, "You mean he actually left Richard's side long enough to live at one of his myriad manors and let his tenants to look upon him?"

Is there a reliable biography on Lovell, or is his life as sketchy as everyone else's in Richard's circle seems to be?

~Weds

--- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> Titchmarsh in Northants was the original family seat, surplanted by Minster.
>
> Also consider:
>
> Lands in Shropshire from the Burnells (Acton)
>
> Upholland in Lancashire from the Hollands
>
> Bedale in North Yorks from FitzAlan
>
> Blankney in Lincs was another Deincourt manor (along with Bainton)
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
>
>
>
>  
> So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> and several sources site:
>
> Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> Bainton in Yorkshire
>
> I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> (estate?) in Yorkshire?
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I guess that's why repeated sources on the web have Bainton in Yorkshire. Because Yorkshire is so...close...to Oxfordshire. <end sarcasm>

I am so on the wrong continent to be doing this. ::glowers at Welsh ancestors who left for Nova Scotia::

~Weds

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> It's in Oxfordshire - Rotherfield-Greys. It came to Francis through his mother Alice.
> Minster-Lovell is also in Oxfordshire.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
>
>
>  
>
> So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> and several sources site:
>
> Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> Bainton in Yorkshire
>
> I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> (estate?) in Yorkshire?
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bainton is in Yorkshire; the East Riding. Just down the road from me, in fact.

from DNB:

Lovell, Francis, Viscount Lovell (b. c.1457, d. in or after 1488), administrator and rebel, was the only son of John, Lord Lovell, and Joan, daughter of John, first Viscount Beaumont. Francis Lovell is variously described as aged seven and nine at his father's death in January 1465; given the date at which he received livery of his lands the former is more likely. The wardship and custody of Lovell and his lands were granted on 13 November 1467 to Richard Neville, earl of Warwick. Lovell had already married (by 17 February 1466) the earl's niece, Anne Fitzhugh, the daughter of Henry, Lord Fitzhugh, and Alice, daughter of Richard Neville, earl of Salisbury. Henry Fitzhugh followed Warwick into rebellion in 146970, and Lovell and his wife were among those pardoned by Edward IV in September 1470. After Warwick's death at Barnet, Lovell's wardship was granted, on 11 July 1471, to the king's brother-in-law John de la Pole, duke of Suffolk, although the
grant specifically excluded lands which Lovell had yet to inheritnotably those of his grandmother Alice Deincourt, which passed to the crown rather than to Suffolk at her death in February 1474. Lovell was still regarded as a minor on 19 February 1477, but on 28 February he was given livery of his Cheshire lands, and was licensed to enter his land elsewhere, including substantial estates in Yorkshire, on 6 November.

In 1480 Lovell was named to commissions of array in the North Riding as a preliminary to the planned Scottish campaign, in which he served under Richard, duke of Gloucester, and was knighted by him beside Berwick on 22 August 1481. On 4 January 1483 Lovell was elevated to the rank of viscount. His rise to power accelerated a few months later with the accession of Richard III. While still protector of the young Edward V, Gloucester made Lovell chief butler of England and granted him effective control of the castle and manor of Thorpe Waterville, Northamptonshire, part of the Holland inheritance which Lovell had previously been disputing with Edward IV's stepson Richard Grey. Two days after Richard's assumption of the throne, Lovell replaced Grey as constable of Wallingford and was made the king's chamberlain. The latter post, which set him at the head of that part of the household closest to the king, is the clearest evidence for Lovell's intimacy with
the new king. He was also a councillor and was elected knight of the Garter early in the reign. Lovell and his wife attended Richard's coronation, where Lovell bore the third sword of state.

When the duke of Buckingham rebelled in October 1483 Lovell deputed William Stonor to raise his men in Oxfordshire and bring them to the king. Stonor, however, joined the rebels, and the episode suggests that Lovell was out of touch with his family interests in the south. Certainly most of the men who can be closely associated with him after his coming of age were northerners. Richard III may have hoped that Lovell would strengthen his links with Oxfordshire and Berkshire, where, as the rebellion had showed, he was in need of reliable allies. Lovell was given extensive grants of forfeited land in the region, including several Stonor manors, but there is little evidence of his involvement there, although in 1484 he joined with the duke of Suffolk in refounding a fraternity in St Helen's Church, Abingdon. His power seems to have been primarily exercised at the centre, within the royal court, where his influence is suggested by the gifts of those anxious
for the king's favour, including Selby Abbey and the city of Salisbury, and by his inclusion in William Collingbourne's famous couplet:
The Cat, the Rat and Lovell our Dog
>
>Rule all England under the Hog.
>(Horrox, 222)
Lovell continued to receive royal patronage throughout the reign, including (with William Catesby) the constableship of Rockingham (Northamptonshire).

As the threat of invasion intensified in the summer of 1485, Lovell was sent to guard the south coast. Henry Tudor landed instead near Milford Haven, and Lovell had probably rejoined Richard in time to fight at Bosworth on 22 August. Although he is not mentioned in any of the chronicle accounts of the battle, his presence is suggested by early reports that he was among the dead. In fact he escaped and took sanctuary at Colchester. He was attainted in Henry's first parliament. In spring 1486 Lovell and his companion in sanctuary, Humphrey Stafford of Grafton (Worcestershire), sought to stir up rebellion against the new regime: Stafford in the west midlands and Lovell in Yorkshire. But the leading northern families failed to support the rising, and by the time Henry VII entered York on 20 April Lovell's forces had dispersed. By 19 May Lovell was believed to be in the Isle of Ely, seeking to escape abroad or take sanctuary once again. He subsequently made
his way to the court of Margaret of York, dowager duchess of Burgundy, where he was joined in the following spring by John, earl of Lincoln, the son of Lovell's former guardian, Suffolk.

In 1486 Lovell and Lincoln, with military backing supplied by Margaret, launched an invasion of England. They went via Ireland, where, on 24 May, a boy claiming to be Clarence's son, Edward, earl of Warwick, was crowned King Edward VI' in Dublin Cathedral. The rebels landed on the Furness peninsula, near the lands of one of their allies, Sir Thomas Broughton, on 4 June, and moved rapidly south. As in the previous year, few former Ricardians of any standing joined them. On 16 June the rebels met the king's army at Stoke, near Newark (Nottinghamshire), and were routed. Lincoln was killed. Lovell, according to the reports which reached York, was discomfited and fled' (Attreed, 2.573). His fate thereafter is obscure, but there seems no reason except coincidence to identify him with the body of a man said to have been found in a hidden room in Minster Lovell in the early years of the eighteenth century. After the battle he probably headed
northwards. It was to the north that his wife sent his associate Edward Franke in search of him, although by the following February Franke had reported failure. Lovell ultimately arrived in Scotland, where on 19 June 1488 James IV granted a safe conduct to him, Sir Thomas Broughton, Sir Roger Hartlington, Oliver Frank, and their associates. Hartlington, reduced to his former status of gentleman (which perhaps implies that his knighthood had been conferred by Edward VI'), was pardoned in July 1489, but there is no further official reference to Lovell or Broughton. In July 1491 a simple and poor person' of the city of York was said to have spoken to Lovell and Broughton in Scotland, although he subsequently denied it and no date is given for the meeting.

Lovell's wife was granted an annuity of £20 p.a. from the exchequer in December 1489. She was still alive in 1495, when her interests were protected in her husband's attainder. The 1487 act had omitted himnegligently, it was claimed, although it is more likely to have been because he was then already under attainder. Lovell had no children, and his heirs were his sisters Joan Lovell, who married Sir Brian Stapilton, and Frideswide Lovell, who married Edward Norreys. Henry VIII later granted their heirs some of the Beaumont lands, but Lovell's attainder was never reversed.

Rosemary Horrox



________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 18:18
Subject: Re: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)



 
I guess that's why repeated sources on the web have Bainton in Yorkshire. Because Yorkshire is so...close...to Oxfordshire. <end sarcasm>

I am so on the wrong continent to be doing this. ::glowers at Welsh ancestors who left for Nova Scotia::

~Weds

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> It's in Oxfordshire - Rotherfield-Greys. It came to Francis through his mother Alice.
> Minster-Lovell is also in Oxfordshire.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
>
>
>  
>
> So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> and several sources site:
>
> Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> Bainton in Yorkshire
>
> I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> (estate?) in Yorkshire?
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Lovell is very much an Oxfordshire/Northants name. My dad's grandmother was a Lovell and her cousins married two of his great-uncles - two brothers, two Lovell sisters like you know who. But their father was the first gardener of Edgcote House, not from the 'lordly' branch I'm sad to say. That is unless by the eighteenth century they'd diversified into grazing and butchery (of the eats kind).


________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 18:18
Subject: Re: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)


 

I guess that's why repeated sources on the web have Bainton in Yorkshire. Because Yorkshire is so...close...to Oxfordshire. <end sarcasm>

I am so on the wrong continent to be doing this. ::glowers at Welsh ancestors who left for Nova Scotia::

~Weds

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> It's in Oxfordshire - Rotherfield-Greys. It came to Francis through his mother Alice.
> Minster-Lovell is also in Oxfordshire.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
>
>
>  
>
> So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> and several sources site:
>
> Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> Bainton in Yorkshire
>
> I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> (estate?) in Yorkshire?
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks so much for the information on Lovell. I ran across this on a genealogical site:
>
> "Francis Lowell was indeed looked upon by his tenants in Mottram as being of almost equal importance to the king. His word was law, his favour was courted and his anger feared."
>
> My first thought was, "What's your source?" My second thought was, "You mean he actually left Richard's side long enough to live at one of his myriad manors and let his tenants to look upon him?"
>
> Is there a reliable biography on Lovell, or is his life as sketchy as everyone else's in Richard's circle seems to be?

Carol responds:

No biography that I know of because, as you say, the details are too sketchy. The "almost equal importance to the king" remark is absurd and almost certainly stems from Colyngbourne's notorious couplet. (Why did you write it, Col? Just joking.) It's amazing how little it takes to start a rumor, which over time becomes "true."

Carol

Hi Weds

What's the source and genealogical site?
Elaine

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks so much for the information on Lovell. I ran across this on a genealogical site:
>
> "Francis Lowell was indeed looked upon by his tenants in Mottram as being of almost equal importance to the king. His word was law, his favour was courted and his anger feared."
>
> My first thought was, "What's your source?" My second thought was, "You mean he actually left Richard's side long enough to live at one of his myriad manors and let his tenants to look upon him?"
>
> Is there a reliable biography on Lovell, or is his life as sketchy as everyone else's in Richard's circle seems to be?
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@> wrote:
> >
> > Titchmarsh in Northants was the original family seat, surplanted by Minster.
> >
> > Also consider:
> >
> > Lands in Shropshire from the Burnells (Acton)
> >
> > Upholland in Lancashire from the Hollands
> >
> > Bedale in North Yorks from FitzAlan
> >
> > Blankney in Lincs was another Deincourt manor (along with Bainton)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> > Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> > So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> > and several sources site:
> >
> > Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> > Bainton in Yorkshire
> >
> > I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> > (estate?) in Yorkshire?
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Wasn't it Churchill who said something like "Rumour can run across a
continent while truth is pulling on his trousers".
Paul

On 21/06/2013 16:05, justcarol67 wrote:
>
> --- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>> Thanks so much for the information on Lovell. I ran across this on a genealogical site:
>>
>> "Francis Lowell was indeed looked upon by his tenants in Mottram as being of almost equal importance to the king. His word was law, his favour was courted and his anger feared."
>>
>> My first thought was, "What's your source?" My second thought was, "You mean he actually left Richard's side long enough to live at one of his myriad manors and let his tenants to look upon him?"
>>
>> Is there a reliable biography on Lovell, or is his life as sketchy as everyone else's in Richard's circle seems to be?
> Carol responds:
>
> No biography that I know of because, as you say, the details are too sketchy. The "almost equal importance to the king" remark is absurd and almost certainly stems from Colyngbourne's notorious couplet. (Why did you write it, Col? Just joking.) It's amazing how little it takes to start a rumor, which over time becomes "true."
>
> Carol
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

There were several other families of the name;

Those of Devon (owners of Castle Kary), extinct by the 15th century, the castle having passed to the Zouches;

A Lancastrian family of Barton Bendish in Norfolk;

and a Lovel family of Boveney in Bucks.

As far as my research goes, the families were all unrelated.


________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:37
Subject: Re: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)



 
Lovell is very much an Oxfordshire/Northants name. My dad's grandmother was a Lovell and her cousins married two of his great-uncles - two brothers, two Lovell sisters like you know who. But their father was the first gardener of Edgcote House, not from the 'lordly' branch I'm sad to say. That is unless by the eighteenth century they'd diversified into grazing and butchery (of the eats kind).


________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 18:18
Subject: Re: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)


 

I guess that's why repeated sources on the web have Bainton in Yorkshire. Because Yorkshire is so...close...to Oxfordshire. <end sarcasm>

I am so on the wrong continent to be doing this. ::glowers at Welsh ancestors who left for Nova Scotia::

~Weds

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> It's in Oxfordshire - Rotherfield-Greys. It came to Francis through his mother Alice.
> Minster-Lovell is also in Oxfordshire.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
>
>
>  
>
> So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> and several sources site:
>
> Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> Bainton in Yorkshire
>
> I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> (estate?) in Yorkshire?
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Oh, mere artistic free expression - a frustrated poet without a book contract had to simply pin stuff up wherever the great public could view it. That little couplet has lasted well, hasn't it?

Col

:)


--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> No biography that I know of because, as you say, the details are too sketchy. The "almost equal importance to the king" remark is absurd and almost certainly stems from Colyngbourne's notorious couplet. (Why did you write it, Col? Just joking.) It's amazing how little it takes to start a rumor, which over time becomes "true."
>
> Carol
>

Exactly but I think you'l find that Oxon has the monopoly on Lovells. And of course Bucks is next to Oxon - a lot of interlinking there. If you go to pre-16th cent a lot of people owned land all over the place. It's only in the 16th cent that people start to 'settle down'. 



________________________________
From: david rayner <theblackprussian@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 19:07
Subject: Re: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)

 

There were several other families of the name;

Those of Devon (owners of Castle Kary), extinct by the 15th century, the castle having passed to the Zouches;

A Lancastrian family of Barton Bendish in Norfolk;

and a Lovel family of Boveney in Bucks.

As far as my research goes, the families were all unrelated.

________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:37
Subject: Re: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)


 
Lovell is very much an Oxfordshire/Northants name. My dad's grandmother was a Lovell and her cousins married two of his great-uncles - two brothers, two Lovell sisters like you know who. But their father was the first gardener of Edgcote House, not from the 'lordly' branch I'm sad to say. That is unless by the eighteenth century they'd diversified into grazing and butchery (of the eats kind).

________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 18:18
Subject: Re: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)

 

I guess that's why repeated sources on the web have Bainton in Yorkshire. Because Yorkshire is so...close...to Oxfordshire. <end sarcasm>

I am so on the wrong continent to be doing this. ::glowers at Welsh ancestors who left for Nova Scotia::

~Weds

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> It's in Oxfordshire - Rotherfield-Greys. It came to Francis through his mother Alice.
> Minster-Lovell is also in Oxfordshire.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
>
>
>  
>
> So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> and several sources site:
>
> Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> Bainton in Yorkshire
>
> I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> (estate?) in Yorkshire?
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

It's not genealogical -- I was wrong/confused after searching so many sites about him.

But the quote has more than one source online, and a Google search reveals they appear to be quoting a 1906 book on legends, not an historical account.

Quoted here:
(6th paragraph down)
http://www.tameside.gov.uk/blueplaque/francislovell

Quoted here:
(7th paragraph down)
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/FrancisLovell%281VLovell%29.htm

Original appears to be from *Legends of Longdendale* by Thomas Middleton (1906). The legend begins on page 55. The original quote is on page 56 of a reprint on Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=YR3mdW7imKsC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=Mottram+as+being+of+almost+equal+importance+to+the+king&source=bl&ots=LpWrGoAoeI&sig=FWvywiKYIZ22jy35V5kY1ZaNrIs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TcPEUb6gMJHAiwLX7oHgAQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mottram%20as%20being%20of%20almost%20equal%20importance%20to%20the%20king&f=false

Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/n6oqt7d

~Weds

--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Weds
>
> What's the source and genealogical site?
> Elaine
>
> --- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks so much for the information on Lovell. I ran across this on a genealogical site:
> >
> > "Francis Lowell was indeed looked upon by his tenants in Mottram as being of almost equal importance to the king. His word was law, his favour was courted and his anger feared."
> >
> > My first thought was, "What's your source?" My second thought was, "You mean he actually left Richard's side long enough to live at one of his myriad manors and let his tenants to look upon him?"
> >
> > Is there a reliable biography on Lovell, or is his life as sketchy as everyone else's in Richard's circle seems to be?
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Titchmarsh in Northants was the original family seat, surplanted by Minster.
> > >
> > > Also consider:
> > >
> > > Lands in Shropshire from the Burnells (Acton)
> > >
> > > Upholland in Lancashire from the Hollands
> > >
> > > Bedale in North Yorks from FitzAlan
> > >
> > > Blankney in Lincs was another Deincourt manor (along with Bainton)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> > > Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > > So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> > > and several sources site:
> > >
> > > Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> > > Bainton in Yorkshire
> > >
> > > I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> > > (estate?) in Yorkshire?
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Correction: Original quote is also on page 55.

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> It's not genealogical -- I was wrong/confused after searching so many sites about him.
>
> But the quote has more than one source online, and a Google search reveals they appear to be quoting a 1906 book on legends, not an historical account.
>
> Quoted here:
> (6th paragraph down)
> http://www.tameside.gov.uk/blueplaque/francislovell
>
> Quoted here:
> (7th paragraph down)
> http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/FrancisLovell%281VLovell%29.htm
>
> Original appears to be from *Legends of Longdendale* by Thomas Middleton (1906). The legend begins on page 55. The original quote is on page 56 of a reprint on Google Books:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=YR3mdW7imKsC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=Mottram+as+being+of+almost+equal+importance+to+the+king&source=bl&ots=LpWrGoAoeI&sig=FWvywiKYIZ22jy35V5kY1ZaNrIs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TcPEUb6gMJHAiwLX7oHgAQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mottram%20as%20being%20of%20almost%20equal%20importance%20to%20the%20king&f=false
>
> Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/n6oqt7d
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Weds
> >
> > What's the source and genealogical site?
> > Elaine
> >
> > --- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks so much for the information on Lovell. I ran across this on a genealogical site:
> > >
> > > "Francis Lowell was indeed looked upon by his tenants in Mottram as being of almost equal importance to the king. His word was law, his favour was courted and his anger feared."
> > >
> > > My first thought was, "What's your source?" My second thought was, "You mean he actually left Richard's side long enough to live at one of his myriad manors and let his tenants to look upon him?"
> > >
> > > Is there a reliable biography on Lovell, or is his life as sketchy as everyone else's in Richard's circle seems to be?
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > > --- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Titchmarsh in Northants was the original family seat, surplanted by Minster.
> > > >
> > > > Also consider:
> > > >
> > > > Lands in Shropshire from the Burnells (Acton)
> > > >
> > > > Upholland in Lancashire from the Hollands
> > > >
> > > > Bedale in North Yorks from FitzAlan
> > > >
> > > > Blankney in Lincs was another Deincourt manor (along with Bainton)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@>
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 2013, 19:28
> > > > Subject: Francis Lovell & Rotherfield (Yorkshire?)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > > So I'm playing with the lands Francis Lovell owned by the end of his life,
> > > > and several sources site:
> > > >
> > > > Rotherfield in Yorkshire
> > > > Bainton in Yorkshire
> > > >
> > > > I found Bainton, but does anyone know what/where the heck is "Rotherfield"
> > > > (estate?) in Yorkshire?
> > > >
> > > > ~Weds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I just discovered that Google Books hides a rather necessary page of the legend involving Francis. In case anyone wants to read the entire story, the original out-of-print book is available as a Gutenberg publication here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41108



--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Correction: Original quote is also on page 55.
>
> > Original appears to be from *Legends of Longdendale* by Thomas Middleton (1906). The legend begins on page 55. The original quote is on page 56 of a reprint on Google Books:

colyngbourne wrote:
>
> Oh, mere artistic free expression - a frustrated poet without a book contract had to simply pin stuff up wherever the great public could view it. That little couplet has lasted well, hasn't it?
>
> Col

Carol responds:

Too well! Oh, the power of a few little rhyming words. And people still think you died for them, too. Pfft! ;-)

Carol