Richard's marriages

Sorry, I tried sending this a few days ago, but apparently it timed out -
beginning of my email problems, only fxed this morning.

I can now add to it that Joanna Laynesmith, of whom we have been speaking,
has a book out on the last four medieval queens (ie Margaret of Anjou
through to Elizabeth of York).


--- In , "Joanne Summerill"
<jsummerill@s...> wrote:
>
> Posted by Marie Walsh, I think
>
>
> If I recall, one of
> the brides Richard was considering before Bosworth was actually one of
> the Conmenas, so the dreams of restoring Constantinople (which fell to
> the Turks when he was less than a year old) seem pretty
real.
>
>
> I've never heard this one before. Who was this lady? What
evidence is
> given for this? If it's correct it shows an idealistic streak, as
marrying
> a member of an exiled royal family would not strengthen diplomatic
ties with
> other rulers.

'm sorry, I KNOW I read this somewhere years and years ago. The lady
was Anna Comnena (weren't they all?). The reason I'm sure I didn't
totally dream it is that this was my first introduction to the
Comnenus name, and I remember thinking at the time how weird, and
interesting, to look for a bride from so far afield.
I thought it was in an old Ricardian, but I've looked and looked and
can't find it.

However, thinking about it keeps bringing me back to the Windsor
portrait. Perhaps it's not a copy of the same original as the Soc. of
Antiquaries one after all? Michael K Jones has pointed out the
spandrels in the top corners with portraits of what appear to be
Constantine & Helena. Now, reading Jonathan Hughes' book on Richard's
religion, he discusses the hat brooch, and describes it as a Greek
cross. Now, is this Greek/Byzantine theme intentional? Could the
original portrait have been painted in connection with such marriage
negotiations?

I must see if I can track down this Anna Comnena thing.


>
> I'm aware of the evidence for the argument that Richard was going
to marry
> Elizabeth of York, which never happened, whether it was considered
> seriously or not. I know the evidence for the negotiations for
Joanna of
> Portugal (and possibly marrying Elizabeth off to Manuel, Duke of
Beja at the
> same time). The other alleged possible bride for the widowed
Richard I've
> seen mentioned is a daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. What is the
> evidence for this? If there is evidence, which daughter was
suggested?
>
>
> Back to Richard's first wife. Thanks for your post about this
Marie. I'm
> sure I read once, here or on lmb, that someone pointed out the
> servants/ladies in waiting we know Anne had. Could someone post
this list
> of servants again? Also what was the name of her half-sister,
Warwick's
> bastard?

That's news to me. I think her ladies may have included people like
Sir Robert Percy's wife Joyce, and Lady Lovell. The bastard half- sister is
news to me.
>
> Finally I've read about this Cely memorandum recording rumours after
> Hastings' execution. Which book says that there are coded symbols
in it too
> and how can I find out what they mean?

There's no book that says there are symbols in it. There is a
photograph of the original letter in Sean Cunningham's book on
Richard, and you can see these funny symbols for yourself. It were me
wot noticed them, miss. Jonathan Hughes said he thought they were
alchemical, and he would investigate and let me know, but I never
heard. Others think they're more likely to be code. They're
interesting to compare with Perkin Warbeck's code, which you can see
in one of the illustrations to Ann Wroe's book.


Also what does the quotation from
> the St Albans abbey chronicle about Hastings' execution say because
I've
> heard of it but never read it.

Nor me.

Marie

>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Joanne

--- In , "marie walsh"
<marie@r...> wrote:
>

>
> I must see if I can track down this Anna Comnena thing.
>
>
> >
Thanks Marie. I've been trying to track down Anna Comnena too.

I've discovered that the Comnenus family were no longer the rulers of
the Byzantine Empire in the fifteenth century. In 1261 the Emperor
Michael VII Palaeologus founded the Palaeologan dynasty, which ruled
till 1453.

The Comnenas were ruling a different country. In 1204 they
established the Empire of Trebizond (which I have never even heard of
before). By calling it an Empire they were exaggerating somewhat. It
was an area in north east Turkey, on the Black Sea. However, this
state became quite rich because it was on the trade route to the
East. Trebizond lasted until the fifteenth century, although by then
the town of Trebizond itself had only 4000 inhabitants.

When Constantinople fell in 1453, Trebizond was ruled by Emperor John
IV Comnenus. He had to pay tribute to Medmed (or Muhammed) II, the
Conqueror, who took Constantinople. John died in 1458. He was
succeeded by his brother, David Comnenus. David didn't want to pay
the tribute. He started intriguing with European powers, asking for
help, and speaking of wild schemes, including the conquest of
Jerusalem. He was also trying to promote an alliance of the non-
Ottoman Asian states against Mehmed II.

Mehmed II found out about this. In 1461 he attacked Trebizond and
deposed David. You would have thought that this would have taught
David a lesson, but in 1463 he was suspected of correspondence with
the Sultan's enemies. Mehmed had David, his six sons, a brother and
a nephew murdered in front of David's wife, Empress Helena. He
spared only one male member of the Comnenus family. The corpses were
flung outside where they were gnawed by dogs. The Empress was fined
for attempting to bury them.

David did have a daughter called Anna, but she became one of the
wives of Mehmed II. Therefore she can't be the Anna Conmena whom
Richard was interested in marrying. I presume this Anna may have
been part of the imperial family of Trebizond, which seems to have
had quite a few branches.

One final thing: I read on one website that the Empire of Trebizond
was famed for its silver mines and the beauty of its Princesses. I
have no idea if this is true. Sounds like Richard missed out on a
stunner <grin>. I wonder if that was another reason he wanted a
Comnena bride <grin>.

This is all I've managed to find out so far.

BTW I'm sure I read once about a battle in the fifteenth century
where European knights went off to fight the Turks. It ended in
disaster for them, with the flower of Burgundian chivalry being
killed. What battle was this? Did it have anything to do with the
machinations of David Comnenus?

Joanne

Joanne

All this is extremely interesting - have you read John Julius
Norwich's three volumes on Byzantium?

As an academic and a pedant, I am impelled to mention that the plural
of Comnenus/Comnena, is Comnenoi (Greek) or Comneni (Latinised),
however.

I wonder whether the disastrous 15th C battle you mention is
Nicopolis in 1397? You can read all about it in Norwich and also in
Barbara Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror'.

The Comneni first came to prominence in the 11th C and there were an
awful lot of them, mostly with the same names, so in the 1480s there
were probably several named Anna Comnena in the inner circle around
the late Emperor of Trebizond.

Ann

Joanne wrote: ... she can't be the Anna Conmena whom
Richard was interested in marrying. ...

***

This raises questions:

If Anna Comnena belonged to the Eastern Orthodox
branch of Christianity, how would that have affected a
marriage with Richard?

I don't know of any marriages between Roman Catholic
and Eastern Orthodox kings and queens, so I don't have
any basis for comparison. Were such marriages rare?

When such marriages occurred, how did the partners
deal with differences in holidays and beliefs? How
did they decide which version their children would
follow?

If Richard had married Anna, would he have acquired
land in Trebizond? Could he have been thinking of
resettling in Trebizond so he could fight the Turks?

Maybe Richard was making more than polite conversation
when he told Nicholas von Poppelau that he wished his
country had borders with the land occupied by the
Turks.

Marion





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>
> If Anna Comnena belonged to the Eastern Orthodox
> branch of Christianity, how would that have affected a
> marriage with Richard?
>
> I don't know of any marriages between Roman Catholic
> and Eastern Orthodox kings and queens, so I don't have
> any basis for comparison. Were such marriages rare?
>
> When such marriages occurred, how did the partners
> deal with differences in holidays and beliefs? How
> did they decide which version their children would
> follow?
>

There were marriages between the Ottonian Emperors and Byzantine
princesses in the 10th and early 11th centuries, so there are
precedents, though admittedly before the schism of 1055.

I think that in the case of dynastic marriages between Orthodox and
western Christians, the children were raised in the father's faith
and the family followed the habits of the father's faith, though
possibly the mother was permitted to practice her own in private.
Much later, western brides marrying Romanovs were required to convert
to orthodoxy before the marriage ceremony, which involved a second
baptism and often a new name. Catherine the Great, for example, was
born Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst and became Ekaterina Feodorovna - St
Feodor is the patron saint of converts and so a convert whose
father's name had no Russian equivalent gained Feodorovitch or
Feodorovna as a patronymic. Under the succession law propounded by
Tsar Paul no one could succeed to the Russian throne unless his
parents were both Orthodox at the time of marriage, so there was no
possibility of a bride not converting. By contrast, when Grand
Duchess Maria Alexandrovna, daughter of Tsar Alexander II, married
Queen Victoria's second son, Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh, she continued
to practise her faith, and had rooms in all their residences
converted into Orthodox chapels, although their children were all
brought up in the Church of England (their daughter Marie then
converted to Catholicism on marrying Crown Prince Ferdinand of
Roumania).

If Richard III had married a Comnena, any children would have been
baptised and brought up as Catholics.

Ann

--- In , "jotwo2003"
<jsummerill@s...> wrote:
> --- In , "marie walsh"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > I must see if I can track down this Anna Comnena thing.
> >
> >
> > >
> Thanks Marie. I've been trying to track down Anna Comnena too.
>
> I've discovered that the Comnenus family were no longer the rulers
of
> the Byzantine Empire in the fifteenth century. In 1261 the
Emperor
> Michael VII Palaeologus founded the Palaeologan dynasty, which
ruled
> till 1453.
>
> The Comnenas were ruling a different country. In 1204 they
> established the Empire of Trebizond (which I have never even heard
of
> before). By calling it an Empire they were exaggerating somewhat.
It
> was an area in north east Turkey, on the Black Sea. However, this
> state became quite rich because it was on the trade route to the
> East. Trebizond lasted until the fifteenth century, although by
then
> the town of Trebizond itself had only 4000 inhabitants.
>
> When Constantinople fell in 1453, Trebizond was ruled by Emperor
John
> IV Comnenus. He had to pay tribute to Medmed (or Muhammed) II,
the
> Conqueror, who took Constantinople. John died in 1458. He was
> succeeded by his brother, David Comnenus. David didn't want to
pay
> the tribute. He started intriguing with European powers, asking
for
> help, and speaking of wild schemes, including the conquest of
> Jerusalem. He was also trying to promote an alliance of the non-
> Ottoman Asian states against Mehmed II.
>
> Mehmed II found out about this. In 1461 he attacked Trebizond and
> deposed David. You would have thought that this would have taught
> David a lesson, but in 1463 he was suspected of correspondence
with
> the Sultan's enemies. Mehmed had David, his six sons, a brother
and
> a nephew murdered in front of David's wife, Empress Helena. He
> spared only one male member of the Comnenus family. The corpses
were
> flung outside where they were gnawed by dogs. The Empress was
fined
> for attempting to bury them.
>
> David did have a daughter called Anna, but she became one of the
> wives of Mehmed II. Therefore she can't be the Anna Conmena whom
> Richard was interested in marrying. I presume this Anna may have
> been part of the imperial family of Trebizond, which seems to have
> had quite a few branches.
>
> One final thing: I read on one website that the Empire of
Trebizond
> was famed for its silver mines and the beauty of its Princesses.
I
> have no idea if this is true. Sounds like Richard missed out on a
> stunner <grin>. I wonder if that was another reason he wanted a
> Comnena bride <grin>.
>
> This is all I've managed to find out so far.
>
> BTW I'm sure I read once about a battle in the fifteenth century
> where European knights went off to fight the Turks. It ended in
> disaster for them, with the flower of Burgundian chivalry being
> killed. What battle was this? Did it have anything to do with
the
> machinations of David Comnenus?
>
> Joanne

I wonder if you are thinking of Mohacs? I believe the princesses
were beautiful, and though the last emperor died bravely his entire
state was so corrupt and foppish, and his willingness to take money
for deserting his people make the end of the eastern empire a very
sordid affair. I really can't think of any good reason why Richard
should have wanted such an alliance as it would have had no
political value after the fall of Trebizond. Besides, Trebizond had
very strong links with the Venetian empire which might possibly have
brought Richard ito conflict with the H R Emperor since the latter
was at loggerheads with Venice in Italy. I would be very surprised
if there were any serious scheme afoot to mary into the Comnenus
family.
Brunhild

--- In , marion davis
<phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> Joanne wrote: ... she can't be the Anna Conmena whom
> Richard was interested in marrying. ...
>
> ***
>
> This raises questions:
>
> If Anna Comnena belonged to the Eastern Orthodox
> branch of Christianity, how would that have affected a
> marriage with Richard?
>
> I don't know of any marriages between Roman Catholic
> and Eastern Orthodox kings and queens, so I don't have
> any basis for comparison. Were such marriages rare?
>
> When such marriages occurred, how did the partners
> deal with differences in holidays and beliefs? How
> did they decide which version their children would
> follow?
>
> If Richard had married Anna, would he have acquired
> land in Trebizond? Could he have been thinking of
> resettling in Trebizond so he could fight the Turks?
>
> Maybe Richard was making more than polite conversation
> when he told Nicholas von Poppelau that he wished his
> country had borders with the land occupied by the
> Turks.
>
> Marion

The more I think about this Anna Comnena thing, the odder it feels.
Surely if there were anything in it it would have been mentioned more.

I'm starting to wonder whether the article I read hadn't got mixed up
with a marriage proposed for Richard I - that would make a lot more
sense. Does anybody know whether Coeur de Lion ever toyed with the
idea of a Byzantine bride?

Marie


>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
> --- In , marion davis
> <phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> > Joanne wrote: ... she can't be the Anna Conmena whom
> > Richard was interested in marrying. ...
> >
> > ***
> >
> > This raises questions:
> >
> > If Anna Comnena belonged to the Eastern Orthodox
> > branch of Christianity, how would that have affected a
> > marriage with Richard?
> >
> > I don't know of any marriages between Roman Catholic
> > and Eastern Orthodox kings and queens, so I don't have
> > any basis for comparison. Were such marriages rare?
> >
> > When such marriages occurred, how did the partners
> > deal with differences in holidays and beliefs? How
> > did they decide which version their children would
> > follow?
> >
> > If Richard had married Anna, would he have acquired
> > land in Trebizond? Could he have been thinking of
> > resettling in Trebizond so he could fight the Turks?
> >
> > Maybe Richard was making more than polite conversation
> > when he told Nicholas von Poppelau that he wished his
> > country had borders with the land occupied by the
> > Turks.
> >
> > Marion
>
> The more I think about this Anna Comnena thing, the odder it feels.
> Surely if there were anything in it it would have been mentioned
more.
>
> I'm starting to wonder whether the article I read hadn't got mixed
up
> with a marriage proposed for Richard I - that would make a lot more
> sense. Does anybody know whether Coeur de Lion ever toyed with the
> idea of a Byzantine bride?
>
> Marie


Hmmm...FDidn't Eleanor of Aquitaine pick out a bride for him and
follow him around, towing the girl along, hoping to force the
marriage? Don't recall the spurned bride's name or origin, though.
I'll try to google it up.

Katy

Here's another question about interfaith marriages in
Richard's time:

Did the couple have to get a dispensation from the
Pope the way they did for consaguinity? How about
approval from the head of the non-Catholic faith?

TIA!

Marion



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> Did the couple have to get a dispensation from the
> Pope the way they did for consaguinity? How about
> approval from the head of the non-Catholic faith?
>
> TIA!


Marion

I don't know the specific answer to this. Logically, however, a
dispensation would not be required as long as the non-Catholic bride
was prepared to convert and to have the offspring brought up as
Catholics (I think in recent years a dispensation has been required
if the children are not to be brought up as Catholics). As far as
approval from the head of the non-Catholic faith is concerned, I
would imagine that, at the exalted levels we are talking about, the
Orthodox Patriarch or whatever would have been involved in the
preliminary discussions about the marriage in any event.

Ann

--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
> --- In , marion davis
> <phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> > Joanne wrote: ... she can't be the Anna Conmena whom
> > Richard was interested in marrying. ...
> >
> > ***
> >
> > This raises questions:
> >
> > If Anna Comnena belonged to the Eastern Orthodox
> > branch of Christianity, how would that have affected a
> > marriage with Richard?
> >
> > I don't know of any marriages between Roman Catholic
> > and Eastern Orthodox kings and queens, so I don't have
> > any basis for comparison. Were such marriages rare?
> >
> > When such marriages occurred, how did the partners
> > deal with differences in holidays and beliefs? How
> > did they decide which version their children would
> > follow?
> >
> > If Richard had married Anna, would he have acquired
> > land in Trebizond? Could he have been thinking of
> > resettling in Trebizond so he could fight the Turks?
> >
> > Maybe Richard was making more than polite conversation
> > when he told Nicholas von Poppelau that he wished his
> > country had borders with the land occupied by the
> > Turks.
> >
> > Marion
>
> The more I think about this Anna Comnena thing, the odder it
feels.
> Surely if there were anything in it it would have been mentioned
more.
>
> I'm starting to wonder whether the article I read hadn't got mixed
up
> with a marriage proposed for Richard I - that would make a lot
more
> sense. Does anybody know whether Coeur de Lion ever toyed with the
> idea of a Byzantine bride?
>
> Marie
>
Well he certainly went there and met her, though at the time he was
about to marry Berengaria, and prior to that he had been "engaged"
long-term to Philip Augustus's sister, Alais. He hadn't got round to
telling Philip he wasn't marrying Alais either which caused some
friction. (Anyone interested in all this period may remember/enjoy
the Lion in Winter! Fab film. More historicals should be done in
this warts and all way.) So ntoning in my reading suggests there was
any such suggestion. He did indeed suggest his widowed sister Joanna
(husband had been king of Sicily) marry Saladin's brother.
Brunhild
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
> > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
> > --- In , marion davis
> > <phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> > > Joanne wrote: ... she can't be the Anna Conmena whom
> > > Richard was interested in marrying. ...
> > >
> > > ***
> > >
> > > This raises questions:
> > >
> > > If Anna Comnena belonged to the Eastern Orthodox
> > > branch of Christianity, how would that have affected a
> > > marriage with Richard?
> > >
> > > I don't know of any marriages between Roman Catholic
> > > and Eastern Orthodox kings and queens, so I don't have
> > > any basis for comparison. Were such marriages rare?
> > >
> > > When such marriages occurred, how did the partners
> > > deal with differences in holidays and beliefs? How
> > > did they decide which version their children would
> > > follow?
> > >
> > > If Richard had married Anna, would he have acquired
> > > land in Trebizond? Could he have been thinking of
> > > resettling in Trebizond so he could fight the Turks?
> > >
> > > Maybe Richard was making more than polite conversation
> > > when he told Nicholas von Poppelau that he wished his
> > > country had borders with the land occupied by the
> > > Turks.
> > >
> > > Marion
> >
> > The more I think about this Anna Comnena thing, the odder it
feels.
> > Surely if there were anything in it it would have been mentioned
> more.
> >
> > I'm starting to wonder whether the article I read hadn't got
mixed
> up
> > with a marriage proposed for Richard I - that would make a lot
more
> > sense. Does anybody know whether Coeur de Lion ever toyed with
the
> > idea of a Byzantine bride?
> >
> > Marie
>
>
> Hmmm...FDidn't Eleanor of Aquitaine pick out a bride for him and
> follow him around, towing the girl along, hoping to force the
> marriage? Don't recall the spurned bride's name or origin,
though.
> I'll try to google it up.
>
> Katy

It was Berengaria of Navarre. Eleanor was sent to collect her and
escort her after Richard who was busy going on crusade. She caught
him up in Sicily, having carted the bride across the Alps and down
the length of Italy, and they were married in Cyprus where Richard
overthrew Isaac Comnenus (1189) before moving on to Palestine.
Brunhild

Marie wrote: 'm sorry, I KNOW I read this somewhere
years and years ago. The lady was Anna Comnena
(weren't they all?). The reason I'm sure I didn't
totally dream it is that this was my first
introduction to the Comnenus name, and I remember
thinking at the time how weird, and interesting, to
look for a bride from so far afield.
I thought it was in an old Ricardian, but I've looked
and looked and can't find it.

***

When I read "The Dragon Waiting" I had a similar
reaction to yours: how unexpected, and intriguing for
an author to combine characters from Byzantium to
England in one novel.

I just checked the author's note at the end of "Dragon
Waiting." Ford doesn't say anything about Trebizond
or the Comnenus family.

But it's interesting to speculate that Ford read
something about Richard's interest in a Comnenus bride
which influenced "Dragon Waiting." That's probably
stretching things too far. But I've read that
fictional characters sometimes develop in ways that
their creators weren't expecting. So it's not
impossible that Ford began with a connection between
Anna Comnenus and Richard III on his mind. Maybe he
decided to leave it out as the book developed.

Marion








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