Raising daughters as active consorts

Maria wrote: Isabel and Fernando had raised
their daughters to be active agents and co-rulers with
their consorts, and to have long, productive careers
doing just that.

***

Do you know if Isabel and Fernando were the first to
raise their daughters to be active co-rulers? Were
rulers' daughters receiving this kind of training in
other countries? Or were Isabel and Fernando
exceptional?

I can't remember reading that Margaret of York
received such training. I've read that Anne of
Beaujeau did a good job until Charles VIII was old
enough to rule, but nothing was said about her
training for this. I have the feeling that 15th
century women who were effective regents or co-rulers
were effective in spite of their training. Perhaps
I'm wrong about that.

Can anyone comment?

TIA!

Marion



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--- In , marion davis
<phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> Maria wrote: Isabel and Fernando had raised
> their daughters to be active agents and co-rulers with
> their consorts, and to have long, productive careers
> doing just that.
>
> ***
>
> Do you know if Isabel and Fernando were the first to
> raise their daughters to be active co-rulers? Were
> rulers' daughters receiving this kind of training in
> other countries? Or were Isabel and Fernando
> exceptional?
>
> I can't remember reading that Margaret of York
> received such training. I've read that Anne of
> Beaujeau did a good job until Charles VIII was old
> enough to rule, but nothing was said about her
> training for this. I have the feeling that 15th
> century women who were effective regents or co-rulers
> were effective in spite of their training. Perhaps
> I'm wrong about that.
>
> Can anyone comment?
>
> TIA!
>
> Marion

Well Catherine of Aragon apparently was a good regent while Henry
VIII was playing soldiers in France, successfully sending an army
that beat the Scots at Flodden. The Habsburgs also had several
female regents for the Netherlands, the duchess of Parma and another
female whose name currently escapes me. Seems to me that maybe they
did train their women, just in case...After all the Empire and Spain
were both heavily involved in war, in Italy for instance, at which
time women were rather expected to step into the breach. Having said
that they ruled with councils and certainly don't expect to have
been the real wielders of power if events in the Netherlands are
anything to go by. England had a reluctance to be ruled by women in
the 15thC, possibly a remembrance of Matilda's notoriety in some
respects, and Marguerite of Anjou who does seem to have ruled was
severely criticised for her unfeminine behaviour. I suspect it
varies by period and family. From what I have read, Brunhild of
Austrasia, a Visigothic princess of the mid 6thC, was trained to
rule or at leats given an education regarded as way beyond the norm
for the day for a royal princess, and she certainly did come to
rule - to the point where her husband, son and grandson were
regarded by some as emasculated in effect. I read somewhere that
princess Mary was trained to rule, but I can't place the reference
so cannot vouch for its accuracy. Elizabeth I doesn't seem to have
been trained to rule, but her education, like Brunhild's, was
exceptional, and may have been as effective as anything taught her
brother, who, after all, shared her teachers.
Brunhild
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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Do you know if Isabel and Fernando were the first to
raise their daughters to be active co-rulers? Were
rulers' daughters receiving this kind of training in
other countries? Or were Isabel and Fernando
exceptional?
===============================
I couldn't say for sure. There were a lot of influential, powerful and
intelligent women who managed to make their mark, and I include Margaret
of Anjou in the crowd. There was also Yolanda of Aragon, mother-in-law
of Charles VII. I just finished reading a bio of Margaret of Provence,
wife of England's Henry III, and her entire family, mostly on the
Savoyard side, were full of powerful women. What their training might
have been, I don't know for sure, but the daughters of Isabel and
Fernando were commented on for their degree of learning. A bio of
Margaret of Austria speculates that she was influenced by Anne of
Beaujeu and that she honed her political skills during her marriage to
Philip the Handsome of Savoy, who was apparently much like her brother
Philip the Handsome: charming, good-looking, athletic, and, as we say
in Brooklyn, sharp as a marble.



I can't remember reading that Margaret of York
received such training. I've read that Anne of
Beaujeau did a good job until Charles VIII was old
enough to rule, but nothing was said about her
training for this. I have the feeling that 15th
century women who were effective regents or co-rulers
were effective in spite of their training. Perhaps
I'm wrong about that.

Can anyone comment?

TIA!

Marion
=========================
I remember reading Louis XI's comment on daughter Anne that she was
least stupid woman he'd ever met. Hmm. Interesting comment from Louis
there. But he did trust France to her during Charles' minority. I
don't know how much "training" he gave her, though, and it might be
interesting to find out. From the little I know, he wouldn't have had
much reason to complain about her time in power. I do know that Isabel
and Fernando set out to make sure that their daughters were well
educated and able to think in political terms but I don't know if Louis
thought that way. It would be interesting to find out!

Maria
elena@...

Maria wrote: I remember reading Louis XI's comment on
daughter Anne that she was least stupid woman he'd
ever met. Hmm. Interesting comment from Louis
there.

***

I've only read two books about Louis XI--P.M.
Kendall's biography and Commynes' Memoirs. Both leave
me with the impression that Louis was more interested
in politics and hunting than his family as people.

Kendall gives the "least stupid woman" quote. The
other items indexed refer to Louis XI's efforts to
marry 4-year old Anne to 32-year old Charles the Bold
in order to achieve Louis XI's political goals. (P.
M. Kendall, Louis XI, p. 182, 186, 187-188)

Even though Louis XI sent constant messages to the
people entrusted with the upbringing of his son,
Kendall says he "saw almost nothing" of him. (p.353)

But when Charles was 12, Louis XI held a state
ceremony, "King and his heir," in which he told
Charles how to avoid the mistakes he had made and how
he should govern France. Charles had to take an oath
to follow Louis XI's instructions. This seems to be
the limit of personal training he gave his son.

***

But he did trust France to [Anne] during Charles'
minority. I don't know how much "training" he gave
her, though, and it might be interesting to find out.
From the little I know, he wouldn't have had
much reason to complain about her time in power.

***

Since Louis XI had so little time to spend with his
son, the Dauphin, I'm guessing that Louis XI gave his
daughter, Anne, little if any training himself. So
far I haven't read anything that describes Anne's
teachers or training for her regency. Kendall lists
some of the Dauphin's teachers, but says nothing about
Anne's.

Kendall suggests that Anne may have inherited Louis'
aptitude for government. He writes: "Those who knew
the royal family regarded her, in intelligence and
firmness of will, as 'the image of her father.'"
(p.363)

I'm guessing that Anne combined native intelligence
and good sense with the ability to apply what she
learned by watching and listening. But I'm not sure
how a woman in her position got access to the kind of
experience she needed to govern effectively. It seems
unlikely that she could just pick up where Louis XI
left off and manage as well as she did without some
kind of training and experience.

In Book 6 of his memoirs, Commynes says that Anne's
husband visited Louis XI during the last months of his
life, but he doesn't mention Anne. Yet other books
I've read say that Anne, not her husband, was the
effective regent during Charles VIII's minority. I'd
like to find out more about this.

***

I do know that Isabel and Fernando set out to make
sure that their daughters were well educated and able
to think in political terms but I don't know if Louis
thought that way. It would be interesting to find out!

***

I agree. I'll add this question to my endless list of
questions to answer. Hopefully I can find something
in English. I can read French, but it's a slow
process.

Marion





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I'm guessing that Anne combined native intelligence
and good sense with the ability to apply what she
learned by watching and listening. But I'm not sure
how a woman in her position got access to the kind of experience she
needed to govern effectively. It seems unlikely that she could just
pick up where Louis XI left off and manage as well as she did without
some kind of training and experience.

Marion
=========================================
I think close observation and intelligence was probably the way it was
done, for the most part:

Going back to Isabel, and her start in politics, she spent about the
first ten years of her life in Arevalo and Madrigal with her
slowly-disintegrating mother and her baby brother Alfonso. In about
1462, she and Alfonso were summoned to Enrique's court. Isabel became
godmother to baby Juana "la Beltraneja", and spent the next number of
years as a relatively minor member of the Castilian court, an occasional
object of a betrothal but otherwise left on her own to make what
observations she cared to keep to herself. When Alfonso was declared
king of Castile after the illegal deposing of Enrique at Avila, he took
Isabel with him and the rebels out of Segovia, and Isabel lived with
them until Alfonso's sudden death at age 14. At this point, she became
a major player, when she was approached by the rebels, at Avila, with
the offer of queenship and the continuing of the war against Enrique.
Isabel, age 16, made her first political decision by refusing to help
continue the war and instead arguing for a truce with Enrique, on of the
conditions being recognition of herself as Enrique's successor. This
was a very astute move, prompting Enrique's instant gratitude, and a
number of dividends in the contract that was drawn up between them. Of
course it all fell apart within a year, but Isabel had established a
base to work with, as a credible person, and someone who, when she made
her decision to go against Enrique's wishes and marry Fernando, could
count on reputable allies. By age 18, when she married Fernando, she
was a seasoned and realistic politician. My guess is that Anne of
Beaujeu must have had similar gifts of observation, analysis and
aptitude for action.

Just guessing.

Maria
elena@...

Maria wrote: Going back to Isabel, and her start in
politics, she spent about the first ten years of her
life in Arevalo and Madrigal with her
slowly-disintegrating mother

***

Could Isabel's mother's condition have passed down to
Juana of Castile the way Charles VI's madness is said
to have passed down to Henry VI?

Did other members of the family suffer from mental
illness?

TIA!

Marion


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Could Isabel's mother's condition have passed down to
Juana of Castile the way Charles VI's madness is said
to have passed down to Henry VI?

Did other members of the family suffer from mental
illness?

TIA!

Marion
=======================================
Before and after bandying this question around on the LMB group with
Michelle, Lorraine and others, I tend to think there's every chance of
it, especially since before the illness struck grandma Isabel of
Portugal she was quite quick and brilliant, able to unite the prickly
Castilian nobility against Juan II's favorite, the brilliant but
corrupted don Alvaro de Luna. She was also able to turn the king
against him, after about 50 years worth of mutual loyalty.
Granddaughter Juana was brilliant too, and also musically and
linguistically inclined.

I tend to feel sometimes that this tendency existed in Isabel the
Catholic as well, but that she was able to propel it into productive
activity, keeping her mind active and creative. The strain of
instability may have reached its most frightening point in don Carlos,
son of the much beleaguered and maligned Philip II, who became a danger
to himself and others.

There seemed to be a tendency toward obsession in the family line:
Juana is a prime example, but her eldest sister, Isabel ("Isabel jr."),
exhibited an extreme of feeling for her first young husband, Alfonso of
Portugal, who was killed in a horse accident. She resisted remarrying,
wanted to join a convent, and in the end only accepted the proposal to
marry Manuel of Portugal if the Jews were expelled from the kingdom.
She died in childbirth, leaving a baby boy, Miguel, who died at about
age 3, and who is buried in the Cathedral of Granada, next to his
grandparents, Juana and Juana's husband Philip the Handsome.

I understand that one of Juana's daughters was unstable. I think it was
Mary of Hungary but am not sure. You might make a case for Mary Tudor,
with the conditions of her late childhood and adolescence feeding the
seeds.

Maria
elena@...