Codes

Maria wrote: Bergenroth discovered letters in
code between Charles and the keeper at Tordesillas,
the Marques de Denia, and when he decoded them
discovered that the two of them were
deliberately attempting to overthrow Juana's reason
because she was the rightful ruler of Castile (Aragon
followed Salic Law so she wasn't queen
of that kingdom), and in fact she was listed as
co-ruler with Charles all her life (which ended only a
few years before his).

***

Did Bergenroth explain how he decoded the letters?
How difficult was it?

I'd like for a disinterested person with the right
language and deciphering skills to decode the Cely
note that Marie described in Message 3570:

" I have actually come round to believe there was a
plot. Quite apart from the apparently genuine panic in
the letters Richard sent north on 99th & 10th June,
you know the note about the events of 13th June
in the Cely papers? written on the back of an
inventory in George Cely's hand, giving information
from the Prior of St John's (a royal councillor
hostile to Richard) in odd half sentences, and sent
over to Calais (Hastings' Calais, no less)? Well, it
contains some odd symbols very deliberately placed
above some of the words, and they are very
similar-looking to the secret code used by Perkin
Warbeck 10 years later. So it would appear that the
Prior and someone in Calais had a diplomatic code
which they were using in the context of a note (it
isn't even a letter in that it is not actually
addressed to anyone, or signed) about Hastings'
death."

It would be good to have the Perkin Warbeck code
deciphered, too.

I can't be the first person to think of this. If
Bergenroth was able to break Charles and Denia's code,
what has prevented the breaking of the Cely and
Warbeck codes?

TIA!

Marion



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Did Bergenroth explain how he decoded the letters?
How difficult was it?

TIA!

Marion
==========================
He probably did, but I'm still waiting for my Bergenroth volumes. He
found the letters in the archives at Simancas, where he'd gone to
research and found he'd have to spend a considerable amount of time
getting things in order first. Apparently the entire archive was a
mess. Apparently it hasn't changed, either, because a biographer of
Alvaro de Luna reported seeing some important documents in an archive
and then the archivists misplacing them. They haven't been found yet!
Grrrr, Spaniards and their so-called filing systems. Grrr....

Maria
elena@...

--- In , marion davis
<phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> Maria wrote: Bergenroth discovered letters in
> code between Charles and the keeper at Tordesillas,
> the Marques de Denia, and when he decoded them
> discovered that the two of them were
> deliberately attempting to overthrow Juana's reason
> because she was the rightful ruler of Castile (Aragon
> followed Salic Law so she wasn't queen
> of that kingdom), and in fact she was listed as
> co-ruler with Charles all her life (which ended only a
> few years before his).
>
> ***
>
> Did Bergenroth explain how he decoded the letters?
> How difficult was it?
>
> I'd like for a disinterested person with the right
> language and deciphering skills to decode the Cely
> note that Marie described in Message 3570:
>
> " I have actually come round to believe there was a
> plot. Quite apart from the apparently genuine panic in
> the letters Richard sent north on 99th & 10th June,
> you know the note about the events of 13th June
> in the Cely papers? written on the back of an
> inventory in George Cely's hand, giving information
> from the Prior of St John's (a royal councillor
> hostile to Richard) in odd half sentences, and sent
> over to Calais (Hastings' Calais, no less)? Well, it
> contains some odd symbols very deliberately placed
> above some of the words, and they are very
> similar-looking to the secret code used by Perkin
> Warbeck 10 years later. So it would appear that the
> Prior and someone in Calais had a diplomatic code
> which they were using in the context of a note (it
> isn't even a letter in that it is not actually
> addressed to anyone, or signed) about Hastings'
> death."
>
> It would be good to have the Perkin Warbeck code
> deciphered, too.
>
> I can't be the first person to think of this. If
> Bergenroth was able to break Charles and Denia's code,
> what has prevented the breaking of the Cely and
> Warbeck codes?

In the case of the Cely note there are only about 10 of these
symbols, and no repetitions, so I can't think how it could be done
unless it happens to be very similar to one already decoded - there
simply isn't a big enough sample to establish a pattern. I don't know
how much of the Perkin Warbeck code survives; Ann Wroe would know,
though.

Marie