A Question about 'the Real White Queen'

One of the 'experts' on the programme suggested that Richard never intended to have Edward V crowned. Her evidence was that Anne never ordered her outfit for the boy's coronation and had no plans to travel to London; there was no way she wouldn't have attended so therefore she knew that Edward V wouldn't become king and that Richard was going to sieze the throne. I wish I could remember exactly what she said but I wasn't paying much attention.

Can anyone shed any light on the comments?

Alison

Making it up so as to fit her stupid plot lines!
Anne followed Richard south to London as soon as he had taken control
and let her know it was safe for her. She arrived on June 5th and was
welcomed by Richard to Crosby Place which he had rented and prepared.
As for what she was ordering regarding wardrobe, and what each item was
for, nobody not there at the time would know such things, so any
assertions about Anne's intentions based on wardrobe are plainly ridiculous!
Paul


On 28/07/2013 18:27, Ali wrote:
> One of the 'experts' on the programme suggested that Richard never intended to have Edward V crowned. Her evidence was that Anne never ordered her outfit for the boy's coronation and had no plans to travel to London; there was no way she wouldn't have attended so therefore she knew that Edward V wouldn't become king and that Richard was going to sieze the throne. I wish I could remember exactly what she said but I wasn't paying much attention.
>
> Can anyone shed any light on the comments?
>
> Alison
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Furthermore, there is a record of the order for Ned's coronation robes, so Gregory's being a twit.

Tamara



--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> Making it up so as to fit her stupid plot lines!
> Anne followed Richard south to London as soon as he had taken control
> and let her know it was safe for her. She arrived on June 5th and was
> welcomed by Richard to Crosby Place which he had rented and prepared.
> As for what she was ordering regarding wardrobe, and what each item was
> for, nobody not there at the time would know such things, so any
> assertions about Anne's intentions based on wardrobe are plainly ridiculous!
> Paul
>
>
> On 28/07/2013 18:27, Ali wrote:
> > One of the 'experts' on the programme suggested that Richard never intended to have Edward V crowned. Her evidence was that Anne never ordered her outfit for the boy's coronation and had no plans to travel to London; there was no way she wouldn't have attended so therefore she knew that Edward V wouldn't become king and that Richard was going to sieze the throne. I wish I could remember exactly what she said but I wasn't paying much attention.
> >
> > Can anyone shed any light on the comments?
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony? Only the bride's, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=



From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .



. . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a bride, and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian's ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry noble personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw not their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his wars . . . .

I remember reading that one unfortunate proxy accidentally undid the wrong
laces and very nearly caused a small international incident.

Dr. de Puebla was Catherine of Aragon's proxy for Prince Arthur.

Maximilian's daughter, Margaret, was wed by proxy to Charles VIII of
France, who threw her over for Anne of Brittany. Margaret was then proxied
to Juan, only son of the Catholic Kings. There was a tremendous storm at
sea while she traveled to Spain, and she composed the following self-eulogy:

"Here lies Margaret, the willing bride.
Twice married. But a virgin when she died."

So as far as she was concerned, at least ironically, "proxy" definitely
meant "married".

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 7:13 AM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
> how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
> Only the brideýs, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>
> From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by Francis
> Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between
> Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
>
> . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine to
> a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth prevailed
> both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as the
> marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these
> parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a bride,
> and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianýs
> ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry noble
> personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between
> the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose
> property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw not
> their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady
> himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his wars
> . . . .
>
>
>
>
>

Has anyone compiled stories about royal proxy marriages? There seem to have
been some hilarious situations. I still can't get over 'consummation by
naked foot'. The picture it conjures is...not for inclusion here. =^..^=

-----Original Message-----
From: Maria Torres
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 2:36 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

I remember reading that one unfortunate proxy accidentally undid the wrong
laces and very nearly caused a small international incident.

Dr. de Puebla was Catherine of Aragon's proxy for Prince Arthur.

Maximilian's daughter, Margaret, was wed by proxy to Charles VIII of
France, who threw her over for Anne of Brittany. Margaret was then proxied
to Juan, only son of the Catholic Kings. There was a tremendous storm at
sea while she traveled to Spain, and she composed the following self-eulogy:

"Here lies Margaret, the willing bride.
Twice married. But a virgin when she died."

So as far as she was concerned, at least ironically, "proxy" definitely
meant "married".

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 7:13 AM, SandraMachin
<sandramachin@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
> how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
> Only the bride's, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>
> From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by Francis
> Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between
> Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
>
> . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine to
> a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth prevailed
> both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as the
> marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these
> parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> bride,
> and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian's
> ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> noble
> personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between
> the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose
> property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw
> not
> their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady
> himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> wars
> . . . .
>
>
>
>
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Can we trust Bacon?
Marie

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony? Only the bride’s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>
>
>
> From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
>
>
>
> . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a bride, and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian’s ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry noble personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw not their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his wars . . . .
>
>
>
>

Ummm.... Let me think. =^..^=

From: mariewalsh2003
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:23 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy


Can we trust Bacon?
Marie

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony? Only the bride’s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>
>
>
> From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
>
>
>
> . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a bride, and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian’s ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry noble personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw not their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his wars . . . .
>
>
>
>

Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
Brittany, from 1917:

"The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of Nassau,
in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German fashion.
The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the emperor,
and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while the
other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last treaty
with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not to
marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it was
permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."

(Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by Helen
Josephine Sanborn)


But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy marriages,
as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other. What we
need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany. I
don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.


This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII of
France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret. Some
years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which was a
disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and Aragon.
Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate Juana,
who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.


Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and Philip's
son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of Aragon
during the Field of the Cloth of Gold. For the record, she (Claude) was
also said to have had a hunchback.


Maria

ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
<[email protected]>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Can we trust Bacon?
> Marie
>
> --- In , "SandraMachin"
> <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> >
> > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
> how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
> Only the brideýýýs, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>
> >
> >
> >
> > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between
> Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine
> to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as
> the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these
> parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a bride,
> and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianýýýs
> ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry noble
> personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between
> the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose
> property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw not
> their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady
> himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his wars
> . . . .
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who was a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St Joan of France.



________________________________
From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy


Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
Brittany, from 1917:

"The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of Nassau,
in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German fashion.
The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the emperor,
and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while the
other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last treaty
with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not to
marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it was
permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."

(Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by Helen
Josephine Sanborn)


But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy marriages,
as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.  What we
need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.  I
don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.


This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII of
France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.  Some
years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which was a
disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and Aragon.
Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate Juana,
who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.


Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and Philip's
son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of Aragon
during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.  For the record, she (Claude) was
also said to have had a hunchback.


Maria

ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
<[email protected]>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Can we trust Bacon?
> Marie
>
> --- In , "SandraMachin"
> <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> >
> > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
> how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
> Only the bride's, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>
> >
> >
> >
> > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between
> Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine
> to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as
> the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these
> parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a bride,
> and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian's
> ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry noble
> personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between
> the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose
> property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw not
> their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady
> himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his wars
> . . . .
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in Garrett
Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
short, and was hunchbacked. Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
home tonight.

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who was
> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St Joan of
> France.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
>
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>
> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> Brittany, from 1917:
>
> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of Nassau,
> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German fashion.
> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the emperor,
> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while the
> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last treaty
> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not to
> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it was
> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
>
> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by Helen
> Josephine Sanborn)
>
> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy marriages,
> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other. What we
> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany. I
> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
>
> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII of
> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret. Some
> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which was a
> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and Aragon.
> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate Juana,
> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
>
> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and Philip's
> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of Aragon
> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold. For the record, she (Claude) was
> also said to have had a hunchback.
>
> Maria
>
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
> > Only the brideýs, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between
> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine
> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about her,
> as
> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> these
> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> bride,
> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianýs
>
> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> noble
> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between
> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose
> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw
> not
> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady
> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> wars
> > . . . .
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ooh! Found reference in GoogleBooks: _Queens and Mistresses of
Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume. I'm a bad girl). She quotes
the the following about Claude:

"The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
very cultivated, generous, and pious.'

Negative remarks on Claudeýs looks never connoted an attack on her
character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
comment."

Now I feel better....

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:

> For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in Garrett
> Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> short, and was hunchbacked. Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> home tonight.
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who was
>> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St Joan of
>> France.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
>> To:
>> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
>>
>> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>>
>>
>> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
>> Brittany, from 1917:
>>
>> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
>> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of Nassau,
>> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
>> fashion.
>> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
>> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
>> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the emperor,
>> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
>> the
>> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
>> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
>> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last treaty
>> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not to
>> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it was
>> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
>>
>> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
>> Helen
>> Josephine Sanborn)
>>
>> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy marriages,
>> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
>> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other. What we
>> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany. I
>> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
>> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
>>
>> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII of
>> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret. Some
>> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
>> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which was
>> a
>> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and Aragon.
>> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
>> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
>> Juana,
>> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
>> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
>>
>> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
>> Philip's
>> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
>> Aragon
>> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold. For the record, she (Claude) was
>> also said to have had a hunchback.
>>
>> Maria
>>
>> ejbronte@...
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
>> <[email protected]>wrote:
>>
>> > **
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Can we trust Bacon?
>> > Marie
>> >
>> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
>> > <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
>> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
>> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
>> > Only the brideýs, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>>
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
>> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
>> between
>> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
>> Brittaine
>> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
>> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about her,
>> as
>> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
>> these
>> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
>> bride,
>> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianýs
>>
>> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
>> noble
>> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
>> between
>> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
>> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
>> (whose
>> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
>> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw
>> not
>> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
>> lady
>> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
>> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
>> wars
>> > . . . .
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless they both were; I honestly don't know.



________________________________
From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy


Ooh!  Found reference in GoogleBooks:  _Queens and Mistresses of
Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.  I'm a bad girl).  She quotes
the the following about Claude:

"The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
very cultivated, generous, and pious.'

Negative remarks on Claude's looks never connoted an attack on her
character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
comment."

Now I feel better....

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:

> For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in Garrett
> Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> short, and was hunchbacked.  Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> home tonight.
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who was
>> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St Joan of
>> France.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
>> To:
>> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
>>
>> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>>
>>
>> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
>> Brittany, from 1917:
>>
>> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
>> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of Nassau,
>> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
>> fashion.
>> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
>> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
>> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the emperor,
>> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
>> the
>> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
>> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
>> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last treaty
>> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not to
>> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it was
>> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
>>
>> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
>> Helen
>> Josephine Sanborn)
>>
>> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy marriages,
>> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
>> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.  What we
>> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.  I
>> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
>> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
>>
>> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII of
>> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.  Some
>> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
>> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which was
>> a
>> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and Aragon.
>> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
>> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
>> Juana,
>> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
>> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
>>
>> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
>> Philip's
>> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
>> Aragon
>> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.  For the record, she (Claude) was
>> also said to have had a hunchback.
>>
>> Maria
>>
>> ejbronte@...
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
>> <[email protected]>wrote:
>>
>> > **
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Can we trust Bacon?
>> > Marie
>> >
>> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
>> > <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
>> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
>> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
>> > Only the bride's, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>>
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
>> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
>> between
>> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
>> Brittaine
>> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
>> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about her,
>> as
>> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
>> these
>> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
>> bride,
>> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian's
>>
>> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
>> noble
>> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
>> between
>> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
>> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
>> (whose
>> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
>> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw
>> not
>> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
>> lady
>> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
>> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
>> wars
>> > . . . .
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

_The Big Book of Women Saints_:
http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false

(I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)

Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
look at her. GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
hunchback and pock-marked face.

Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
physical beauty is concerned.

So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled. The Claude I'm talking about was,
indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany. Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
married after the death of her husband Charles VIII. She and Charles had
many children but none survived. She had several children by Louis, but
only Claude and a sister Renee survived. This was the Louis who married
Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.

Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> they both were; I honestly don't know.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>
> Ooh! Found reference in GoogleBooks: _Queens and Mistresses of
> Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume. I'm a bad girl). She quotes
> the the following about Claude:
>
> "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
>
> Negative remarks on Claudeýs looks never connoted an attack on her
> character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> comment."
>
> Now I feel better....
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
>
> > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> Garrett
> > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > short, and was hunchbacked. Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > home tonight.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@...
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >> **
>
> >>
> >>
> >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> was
> >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> Joan of
> >> France.
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> >> Brittany, from 1917:
> >>
> >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> Nassau,
> >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> >> fashion.
> >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> emperor,
> >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> >> the
> >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> treaty
> >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> to
> >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> was
> >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> >>
> >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> >> Helen
> >> Josephine Sanborn)
> >>
> >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> marriages,
> >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other. What we
> >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany. I
> >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> >>
> >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> of
> >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret. Some
> >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> was
> >> a
> >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> Aragon.
> >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> >> Juana,
> >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> >>
> >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> >> Philip's
> >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> >> Aragon
> >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold. For the record, she (Claude) was
> >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> >>
> >> Maria
> >>
> >> ejbronte@...
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> >>
> >> > **
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> >> > Marie
> >> >
> >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> >> > <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> but
> >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> ceremony?
> >> > Only the brideýs, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> >>
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> >> between
> >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> >> Brittaine
> >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> her,
> >> as
> >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> >> these
> >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> >> bride,
> >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianýs
> >>
> >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> >> noble
> >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> >> between
> >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> >> (whose
> >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> draw
> >> not
> >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> >> lady
> >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> >> wars
> >> > . . . .
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used when asking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'  when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family. 


________________________________
From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy


_The Big Book of Women Saints_:
http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false

(I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)

Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
look at her.  GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
hunchback and pock-marked face.

Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
physical beauty is concerned.

So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.  The Claude I'm talking about was,
indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.  Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.  She and Charles had
many children but none survived.  She had several children by Louis, but
only Claude and a sister Renee survived.  This was the Louis who married
Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.

Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> they both were; I honestly don't know.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>
> Ooh!  Found reference in GoogleBooks:  _Queens and Mistresses of
> Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.  I'm a bad girl).  She quotes
> the the following about Claude:
>
> "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
>
> Negative remarks on Claude's looks never connoted an attack on her
> character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> comment."
>
> Now I feel better....
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
>
> > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> Garrett
> > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > short, and was hunchbacked.  Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > home tonight.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@...
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >> **
>
> >>
> >>
> >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> was
> >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> Joan of
> >> France.
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> >> Brittany, from 1917:
> >>
> >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> Nassau,
> >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> >> fashion.
> >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> emperor,
> >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> >> the
> >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> treaty
> >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> to
> >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> was
> >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> >>
> >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> >> Helen
> >> Josephine Sanborn)
> >>
> >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> marriages,
> >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.  What we
> >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.  I
> >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> >>
> >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> of
> >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.  Some
> >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> was
> >> a
> >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> Aragon.
> >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> >> Juana,
> >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> >>
> >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> >> Philip's
> >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> >> Aragon
> >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.  For the record, she (Claude) was
> >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> >>
> >> Maria
> >>
> >> ejbronte@...
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> >>
> >> > **
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> >> > Marie
> >> >
> >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> >> > <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> but
> >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> ceremony?
> >> > Only the bride's, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> >>
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> >> between
> >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> >> Brittaine
> >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> her,
> >> as
> >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> >> these
> >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> >> bride,
> >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian's
> >>
> >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> >> noble
> >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> >> between
> >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> >> (whose
> >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> draw
> >> not
> >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> >> lady
> >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> >> wars
> >> > . . . .
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

It's way too easy to get confused in this field!

Maria
ejbronte@...
(Incidentally, it's Emily Bronte's birthday tomorrow. *That* I'm sure of!)

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my
> Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used when asking why no-one in
> France noticed Richard's 'deformity' when you would have thought it would
> have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
>
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>
> _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
>
> (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
>
> Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> look at her. GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> hunchback and pock-marked face.
>
> Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> physical beauty is concerned.
>
> So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled. The Claude I'm talking about was,
> indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany. Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> married after the death of her husband Charles VIII. She and Charles had
> many children but none survived. She had several children by Louis, but
> only Claude and a sister Renee survived. This was the Louis who married
> Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
>
> Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > Ooh! Found reference in GoogleBooks: _Queens and Mistresses of
> > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume. I'm a bad girl). She
> quotes
> > the the following about Claude:
> >
> > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for
> her
> > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to
> be
> > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> >
> > Negative remarks on Claudeýs looks never connoted an attack on her
> > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no
> adverse
> > comment."
> >
> > Now I feel better....
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@...
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > Garrett
> > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > short, and was hunchbacked. Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach
> for
> > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > home tonight.
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@...
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> **
> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > was
> > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > Joan of
> > >> France.
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > >>
> > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > >>
> > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > Nassau,
> > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > >> fashion.
> > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess,
> and
> > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > emperor,
> > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch,
> while
> > >> the
> > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the
> ceremony
> > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France
> and
> > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > treaty
> > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > to
> > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > was
> > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > >>
> > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > >> Helen
> > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > >>
> > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > marriages,
> > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have
> been
> > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other. What
> we
> > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.
> I
> > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > >>
> > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > of
> > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret. Some
> > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband
> Philip
> > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > was
> > >> a
> > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > Aragon.
> > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties
> which
> > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > >> Juana,
> > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying
> the
> > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > >>
> > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > >> Philip's
> > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > >> Aragon
> > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold. For the record, she (Claude)
> was
> > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > >>
> > >> Maria
> > >>
> > >> ejbronte@...
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > **
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > >> > Marie
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > >> > <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > but
> > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > ceremony?
> > >> > Only the brideýs, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > >> between
> > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > >> Brittaine
> > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > her,
> > >> as
> > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > >> these
> > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > >> bride,
> > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in
> Maximilianýs
> > >>
> > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of
> sundry
> > >> noble
> > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > >> between
> > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought
> to
> > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > >> (whose
> > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > draw
> > >> not
> > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > >> lady
> > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended
> his
> > >> wars
> > >> > . . . .
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

"Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.

Tamara

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used when asking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'  when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family. 
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>
> _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
>
> (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
>
> Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> look at her.  GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> hunchback and pock-marked face.
>
> Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> physical beauty is concerned.
>
> So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.  The Claude I'm talking about was,
> indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.  Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.  She and Charles had
> many children but none survived.  She had several children by Louis, but
> only Claude and a sister Renee survived.  This was the Louis who married
> Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
>
> Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > Ooh!  Found reference in GoogleBooks:  _Queens and Mistresses of
> > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.  I'm a bad girl).  She quotes
> > the the following about Claude:
> >
> > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> >
> > Negative remarks on Claude’s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > comment."
> >
> > Now I feel better....
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@...
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
> >
> > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > Garrett
> > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > short, and was hunchbacked.  Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > home tonight.
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@...
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> **
> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > was
> > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > Joan of
> > >> France.
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > >>
> > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > >>
> > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > Nassau,
> > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > >> fashion.
> > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > emperor,
> > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > >> the
> > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > treaty
> > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > to
> > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > was
> > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > >>
> > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > >> Helen
> > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > >>
> > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > marriages,
> > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.  What we
> > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.  I
> > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > >>
> > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > of
> > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.  Some
> > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > was
> > >> a
> > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > Aragon.
> > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > >> Juana,
> > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > >>
> > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > >> Philip's
> > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > >> Aragon
> > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.  For the record, she (Claude) was
> > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > >>
> > >> Maria
> > >>
> > >> ejbronte@...
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > **
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > >> > Marie
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > but
> > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > ceremony?
> > >> > Only the bride’s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > >> between
> > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > >> Brittaine
> > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > her,
> > >> as
> > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > >> these
> > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > >> bride,
> > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian’s
> > >>
> > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > >> noble
> > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > >> between
> > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > >> (whose
> > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > draw
> > >> not
> > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > >> lady
> > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > >> wars
> > >> > . . . .
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

As  in 'I Claudius'?



________________________________
From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 

"Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.

Tamara

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used when asking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'  when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family. 
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>
> _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
>
> (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
>
> Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> look at her.  GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> hunchback and pock-marked face.
>
> Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> physical beauty is concerned.
>
> So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.  The Claude I'm talking about was,
> indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.  Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.  She and Charles had
> many children but none survived.  She had several children by Louis, but
> only Claude and a sister Renee survived.  This was the Louis who married
> Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
>
> Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > Ooh!  Found reference in GoogleBooks:  _Queens and Mistresses of
> > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.  I'm a bad girl).  She quotes
> > the the following about Claude:
> >
> > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> >
> > Negative remarks on Claudeâ¬"s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > comment."
> >
> > Now I feel better....
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@...
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
> >
> > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > Garrett
> > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > short, and was hunchbacked.  Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > home tonight.
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@...
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> **
> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > was
> > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > Joan of
> > >> France.
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > >>
> > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > >>
> > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > Nassau,
> > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > >> fashion.
> > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > emperor,
> > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > >> the
> > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > treaty
> > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > to
> > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > was
> > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > >>
> > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > >> Helen
> > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > >>
> > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > marriages,
> > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.  What we
> > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.  I
> > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > >>
> > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > of
> > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.  Some
> > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > was
> > >> a
> > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > Aragon.
> > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > >> Juana,
> > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > >>
> > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > >> Philip's
> > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > >> Aragon
> > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.  For the record, she (Claude) was
> > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > >>
> > >> Maria
> > >>
> > >> ejbronte@...
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > **
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > >> > Marie
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > but
> > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > ceremony?
> > >> > Only the brideâ¬"s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > >> between
> > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > >> Brittaine
> > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > her,
> > >> as
> > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > >> these
> > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > >> bride,
> > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianâ¬"s
> > >>
> > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > >> noble
> > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > >> between
> > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > >> (whose
> > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > draw
> > >> not
> > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > >> lady
> > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > >> wars
> > >> > . . . .
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

I don't know about royal proxy marriages, but Eleanor Herman has written two books on royal sex that includes proxy marriages, marriages and consummations and affairs throughout history (including the Middle Ages) that are a fun read. Proxy marriages seem to have usually been followed up by the delivery of the bride to the groom with non-proxy sex hopefully following to get an heir. Some of those follow-ups were hysterically funny and pathetic at the same time.

Multiple used versions of Herman's books appear to be a penny plus postage on Amazon. (Obligatory statement: I have no association with the author; I just liked her books.)

Sex with Kings: 500 Years of Adultery, Power, Rivalry, and Revenge
Sex with the Queen: 900 Years of Vile Kings, Virile Lovers, and Passionate Politics (P.S.)

~Weds


--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone compiled stories about royal proxy marriages? There seem to have
> been some hilarious situations. I still can't get over 'consummation by
> naked foot'. The picture it conjures is...not for inclusion here. =^..^=
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maria Torres
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 2:36 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
> I remember reading that one unfortunate proxy accidentally undid the wrong
> laces and very nearly caused a small international incident.
>
> Dr. de Puebla was Catherine of Aragon's proxy for Prince Arthur.
>
> Maximilian's daughter, Margaret, was wed by proxy to Charles VIII of
> France, who threw her over for Anne of Brittany. Margaret was then proxied
> to Juan, only son of the Catholic Kings. There was a tremendous storm at
> sea while she traveled to Spain, and she composed the following self-eulogy:
>
> "Here lies Margaret, the willing bride.
> Twice married. But a virgin when she died."
>
> So as far as she was concerned, at least ironically, "proxy" definitely
> meant "married".
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 7:13 AM, SandraMachin
> <sandramachin@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
> > Only the bride’s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> >
> > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by Francis
> > Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between
> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> >
> > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine to
> > a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth prevailed
> > both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as the
> > marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these
> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > bride,
> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian’s
> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > noble
> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between
> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose
> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw
> > not
> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady
> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > wars

On 29/07/2013 9:15 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
> how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
> Only the brideýs, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
>
> From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by Francis
> Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between
> Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
>
> . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine to
> a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth prevailed
> both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as the
> marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these
> parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a bride,
> and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianýs
> ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry noble
> personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between
> the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose
> property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw not
> their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady
> himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his wars
> . . . .
>
>
>
>
>

Claude's parents may well have thought of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, or of his family, the gens Claudia, which had been a force in Roman politics for five centuries prior to Claudius' birth.

Ironically, many Latin scholars nowadays think the gens name came from a word other than "claudus", though at the time of Claude's birth the assumption that the gens Claudia got its name from an association with lameness -- an assumption the existence of the genuinely lame Emperor Claudius would have strengthened -- was accepted without question as far as I know.

Tamara

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As  in 'I Claudius'?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>  
>
> "Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.
>
> Tamara
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used when asking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'  when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family. 
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
> >
> > (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
> >
> > Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> > look at her.  GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> > mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> > aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> > hunchback and pock-marked face.
> >
> > Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> > physical beauty is concerned.
> >
> > So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.  The Claude I'm talking about was,
> > indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.  Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> > married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.  She and Charles had
> > many children but none survived.  She had several children by Louis, but
> > only Claude and a sister Renee survived.  This was the Louis who married
> > Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
> >
> > Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >
> > >
> > > Ooh!  Found reference in GoogleBooks:  _Queens and Mistresses of
> > > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.  I'm a bad girl).  She quotes
> > > the the following about Claude:
> > >
> > > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> > >
> > > Negative remarks on Claude’s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > > comment."
> > >
> > > Now I feel better....
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > > Garrett
> > > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > > short, and was hunchbacked.  Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > > home tonight.
> > > >
> > > > Maria
> > > > ejbronte@
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > > was
> > > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > > Joan of
> > > >> France.
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > > >>
> > > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > > >>
> > > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > > Nassau,
> > > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > > >> fashion.
> > > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > > emperor,
> > > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > > >> the
> > > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > > treaty
> > > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > > to
> > > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > > was
> > > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > > >>
> > > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > > >> Helen
> > > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > > >>
> > > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > > marriages,
> > > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.  What we
> > > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.  I
> > > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > > of
> > > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.  Some
> > > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > > was
> > > >> a
> > > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > > Aragon.
> > > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > > >> Juana,
> > > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > > >> Philip's
> > > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > > >> Aragon
> > > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.  For the record, she (Claude) was
> > > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maria
> > > >>
> > > >> ejbronte@
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > > >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > **
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > > >> > Marie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > > but
> > > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > > ceremony?
> > > >> > Only the bride’s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > > >> between
> > > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > > >> Brittaine
> > > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > > her,
> > > >> as
> > > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > > >> these
> > > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > > >> bride,
> > > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian’s
> > > >>
> > > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > > >> noble
> > > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > > >> between
> > > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > > >> (whose
> > > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > > draw
> > > >> not
> > > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > > >> lady
> > > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > > >> wars
> > > >> > . . . .
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Speaking of the Ceasars did you watch Mary Beard's marvellous debunking of the Caligula 'legend' or 'bootikins' as she called him? Would that we had a scholar of that credibility and presence to do the same for Richard.



________________________________
From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:57
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 

Claude's parents may well have thought of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, or of his family, the gens Claudia, which had been a force in Roman politics for five centuries prior to Claudius' birth.

Ironically, many Latin scholars nowadays think the gens name came from a word other than "claudus", though at the time of Claude's birth the assumption that the gens Claudia got its name from an association with lameness -- an assumption the existence of the genuinely lame Emperor Claudius would have strengthened -- was accepted without question as far as I know.

Tamara

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As  in 'I Claudius'?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>  
>
> "Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.
>
> Tamara
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used whenàasking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'à when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family.à
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
> >
> > (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
> >
> > Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> > look at her.à GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> > mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> > aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> > hunchback and pock-marked face.
> >
> > Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> > physical beauty is concerned.
> >
> > So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.à The Claude I'm talking about was,
> > indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.à Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> > married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.à She and Charles had
> > many children but none survived.à She had several children by Louis, but
> > only Claude and a sister Renee survived.à This was the Louis who married
> > Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
> >
> > Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >
> > >
> > > Ooh!à Found reference in GoogleBooks:à _Queens and Mistresses of
> > > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.à I'm a bad girl).à She quotes
> > > the the following about Claude:
> > >
> > > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> > >
> > > Negative remarks on Claudeââ¬â¢s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > > comment."
> > >
> > > Now I feel better....
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > > Garrett
> > > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > > short, and was hunchbacked.à Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > > home tonight.
> > > >
> > > > Maria
> > > > ejbronte@
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > > was
> > > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > > Joan of
> > > >> France.
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > > >>
> > > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > > >>
> > > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > > Nassau,
> > > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > > >> fashion.
> > > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > > emperor,
> > > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > > >> the
> > > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > > treaty
> > > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > > to
> > > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > > was
> > > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > > >>
> > > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > > >> Helen
> > > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > > >>
> > > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > > marriages,
> > > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.à What we
> > > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.à I
> > > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > > of
> > > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.à Some
> > > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > > was
> > > >> a
> > > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > > Aragon.
> > > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > > >> Juana,
> > > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > > >> Philip's
> > > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > > >> Aragon
> > > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.à For the record, she (Claude) was
> > > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maria
> > > >>
> > > >> ejbronte@
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > > >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > **
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > > >> > Marie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > > but
> > > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > > ceremony?
> > > >> > Only the brideââ¬â¢s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > > >> between
> > > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > > >> Brittaine
> > > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > > her,
> > > >> as
> > > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > > >> these
> > > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > > >> bride,
> > > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianââ¬â¢s
> > > >>
> > > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > > >> noble
> > > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > > >> between
> > > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > > >> (whose
> > > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > > draw
> > > >> not
> > > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > > >> lady
> > > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > > >> wars
> > > >> > . . . .
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >à
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

 I did - and yes, if only!  But why is it that WOTR seems to attract people who are not academic historians and yet the ancient world doesn't?  Bettany Hughes has been criticised in the past for not having a PhD in her subject ("merely" a first degree - from Oxford) although I think she now has an honorary one but she is 100 times the historian that PG is.  Do they simply set the bar higher and if so why?   
 
Liz

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 9:06
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 
Speaking of the Ceasars did you watch Mary Beard's marvellous debunking of the Caligula 'legend' or 'bootikins' as she called him? Would that we had a scholar of that credibility and presence to do the same for Richard.

________________________________
From: maroonnavywhite <mailto:khafara%40aol.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:57
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 

Claude's parents may well have thought of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, or of his family, the gens Claudia, which had been a force in Roman politics for five centuries prior to Claudius' birth.

Ironically, many Latin scholars nowadays think the gens name came from a word other than "claudus", though at the time of Claude's birth the assumption that the gens Claudia got its name from an association with lameness -- an assumption the existence of the genuinely lame Emperor Claudius would have strengthened -- was accepted without question as far as I know.

Tamara

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As  in 'I Claudius'?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>  
>
> "Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.
>
> Tamara
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used whenàasking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'à when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family.à
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
> >
> > (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
> >
> > Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> > look at her.à GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> > mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> > aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> > hunchback and pock-marked face.
> >
> > Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> > physical beauty is concerned.
> >
> > So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.à The Claude I'm talking about was,
> > indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.à Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> > married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.à She and Charles had
> > many children but none survived.à She had several children by Louis, but
> > only Claude and a sister Renee survived.à This was the Louis who married
> > Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
> >
> > Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >
> > >
> > > Ooh!à Found reference in GoogleBooks:à _Queens and Mistresses of
> > > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.à I'm a bad girl).à She quotes
> > > the the following about Claude:
> > >
> > > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> > >
> > > Negative remarks on Claudeââ¬â¢s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > > comment."
> > >
> > > Now I feel better....
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > > Garrett
> > > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > > short, and was hunchbacked.à Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > > home tonight.
> > > >
> > > > Maria
> > > > ejbronte@
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > > was
> > > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > > Joan of
> > > >> France.
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > >> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > > >>
> > > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > > >>
> > > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > > Nassau,
> > > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > > >> fashion.
> > > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > > emperor,
> > > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > > >> the
> > > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > > treaty
> > > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > > to
> > > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > > was
> > > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > > >>
> > > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > > >> Helen
> > > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > > >>
> > > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > > marriages,
> > > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.à What we
> > > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.à I
> > > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > > of
> > > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.à Some
> > > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > > was
> > > >> a
> > > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > > Aragon.
> > > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > > >> Juana,
> > > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > > >> Philip's
> > > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > > >> Aragon
> > > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.à For the record, she (Claude) was
> > > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maria
> > > >>
> > > >> ejbronte@
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > > >> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > **
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > > >> > Marie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin"
> > > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > > but
> > > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > > ceremony?
> > > >> > Only the brideââ¬â¢s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > > >> between
> > > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > > >> Brittaine
> > > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > > her,
> > > >> as
> > > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > > >> these
> > > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > > >> bride,
> > > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianââ¬â¢s
> > > >>
> > > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > > >> noble
> > > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > > >> between
> > > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > > >> (whose
> > > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > > draw
> > > >> not
> > > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > > >> lady
> > > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > > >> wars
> > > >> > . . . .
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >à
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I hate to say it but it seems to be who you're in with at the Beeb. Mary Beard started off I recall at non-peak times and then her career (rightly) rocketed because she is so good. BTW isn't our man Wood on as well somewhere - haven't caught him yet. There must be someone other than PG who can give Richard a proper 'hearing' but they can't have sucked up to the right people yet. Maybe we're back to the 'all Richard supporters must be nutters' scenario? 


________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 10:19
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy


 



 I did - and yes, if only!  But why is it that WOTR seems to attract people who are not academic historians and yet the ancient world doesn't?  Bettany Hughes has been criticised in the past for not having a PhD in her subject ("merely" a first degree - from Oxford) although I think she now has an honorary one but she is 100 times the historian that PG is.  Do they simply set the bar higher and if so why?   
 
Liz

From: Hilary Jones <mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 9:06
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 
Speaking of the Ceasars did you watch Mary Beard's marvellous debunking of the Caligula 'legend' or 'bootikins' as she called him? Would that we had a scholar of that credibility and presence to do the same for Richard.

________________________________
From: maroonnavywhite <mailto:khafara%40aol.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:57
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 

Claude's parents may well have thought of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, or of his family, the gens Claudia, which had been a force in Roman politics for five centuries prior to Claudius' birth.

Ironically, many Latin scholars nowadays think the gens name came from a word other than "claudus", though at the time of Claude's birth the assumption that the gens Claudia got its name from an association with lameness -- an assumption the existence of the genuinely lame Emperor Claudius would have strengthened -- was accepted without question as far as I know.

Tamara

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As  in 'I Claudius'?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>  
>
> "Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.
>
> Tamara
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used whenàasking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'à when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family.à
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
> >
> > (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
> >
> > Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> > look at her.à GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> > mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> > aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> > hunchback and pock-marked face.
> >
> > Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> > physical beauty is concerned.
> >
> > So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.à The Claude I'm talking about was,
> > indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.à Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> > married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.à She and Charles had
> > many children but none survived.à She had several children by Louis, but
> > only Claude and a sister Renee survived.à This was the Louis who married
> > Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
> >
> > Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >
> > >
> > > Ooh!à Found reference in GoogleBooks:à _Queens and Mistresses of
> > > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.à I'm a bad girl).à She quotes
> > > the the following about Claude:
> > >
> > > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> > >
> > > Negative remarks on Claudeââ¬â¢s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > > comment."
> > >
> > > Now I feel better....
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > > Garrett
> > > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > > short, and was hunchbacked.à Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > > home tonight.
> > > >
> > > > Maria
> > > > ejbronte@
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > > was
> > > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > > Joan of
> > > >> France.
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > >> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > > >>
> > > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > > >>
> > > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > > Nassau,
> > > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > > >> fashion.
> > > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > > emperor,
> > > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > > >> the
> > > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > > treaty
> > > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > > to
> > > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > > was
> > > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > > >>
> > > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > > >> Helen
> > > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > > >>
> > > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > > marriages,
> > > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.à What we
> > > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.à I
> > > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > > of
> > > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.à Some
> > > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > > was
> > > >> a
> > > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > > Aragon.
> > > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > > >> Juana,
> > > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > > >> Philip's
> > > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > > >> Aragon
> > > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.à For the record, she (Claude) was
> > > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maria
> > > >>
> > > >> ejbronte@
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > > >> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > **
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > > >> > Marie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin"
> > > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > > but
> > > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > > ceremony?
> > > >> > Only the brideââ¬â¢s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > > >> between
> > > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > > >> Brittaine
> > > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > > her,
> > > >> as
> > > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > > >> these
> > > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > > >> bride,
> > > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianââ¬â¢s
> > > >>
> > > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > > >> noble
> > > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > > >> between
> > > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > > >> (whose
> > > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > > draw
> > > >> not
> > > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > > >> lady
> > > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > > >> wars
> > > >> > . . . .
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >à
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Nope, missed that as I'm in the States. But it sounds fascinating. - much like Terry Jones' "Barbarians".

Tamara



- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Speaking of the Ceasars did you watch Mary Beard's marvellous debunking of the Caligula 'legend' or 'bootikins' as she called him? Would that we had a scholar of that credibility and presence to do the same for Richard.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:57
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>  
>
> Claude's parents may well have thought of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, or of his family, the gens Claudia, which had been a force in Roman politics for five centuries prior to Claudius' birth.
>
> Ironically, many Latin scholars nowadays think the gens name came from a word other than "claudus", though at the time of Claude's birth the assumption that the gens Claudia got its name from an association with lameness -- an assumption the existence of the genuinely lame Emperor Claudius would have strengthened -- was accepted without question as far as I know.
>
> Tamara
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > As  in 'I Claudius'?
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >  
> >
> > "Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.
> >
> > Tamara
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used when asking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'  when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family. 
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >
> > >
> > > _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> > > http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
> > >
> > > (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
> > >
> > > Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> > > look at her.  GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> > > mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> > > aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> > > hunchback and pock-marked face.
> > >
> > > Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> > > physical beauty is concerned.
> > >
> > > So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.  The Claude I'm talking about was,
> > > indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.  Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> > > married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.  She and Charles had
> > > many children but none survived.  She had several children by Louis, but
> > > only Claude and a sister Renee survived.  This was the Louis who married
> > > Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
> > >
> > > Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > > > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > > > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ooh!  Found reference in GoogleBooks:  _Queens and Mistresses of
> > > > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > > > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.  I'm a bad girl).  She quotes
> > > > the the following about Claude:
> > > >
> > > > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > > > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > > > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > > > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > > > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > > > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > > > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> > > >
> > > > Negative remarks on Claude’s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > > > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > > > comment."
> > > >
> > > > Now I feel better....
> > > >
> > > > Maria
> > > > ejbronte@
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > > > Garrett
> > > > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > > > short, and was hunchbacked.  Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > > > home tonight.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maria
> > > > > ejbronte@
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> **
> > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > > > was
> > > > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > > > Joan of
> > > > >> France.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > > > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > > > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > > > Nassau,
> > > > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > > > >> fashion.
> > > > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > > > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > > > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > > > emperor,
> > > > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > > > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > > > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > > > treaty
> > > > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > > > to
> > > > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > > > was
> > > > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > > > >> Helen
> > > > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > > > marriages,
> > > > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > > > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.  What we
> > > > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.  I
> > > > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > > > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > > > of
> > > > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.  Some
> > > > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > > > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > > > was
> > > > >> a
> > > > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > > > Aragon.
> > > > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > > > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > > > >> Juana,
> > > > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > > > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > > > >> Philip's
> > > > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > > > >> Aragon
> > > > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.  For the record, she (Claude) was
> > > > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Maria
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ejbronte@
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > > > >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > **
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > > > >> > Marie
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > > > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > > > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > > > but
> > > > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > > > ceremony?
> > > > >> > Only the bride’s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > > > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > > > >> between
> > > > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > > > >> Brittaine
> > > > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > > > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > > > her,
> > > > >> as
> > > > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > > > >> these
> > > > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > > > >> bride,
> > > > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian’s
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > > > >> noble
> > > > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > > > >> between
> > > > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > > > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > > > >> (whose
> > > > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > > > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > > > draw
> > > > >> not
> > > > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > > > >> lady
> > > > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > > > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > > > >> wars
> > > > >> > . . . .
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------------
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I wouldn't entirely agree that she de-bunked the legend; just took a critical look at what was trustworthy and/or plausible.  It was a bit like going from Seward to Ross.

Jonathan




________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 9:06
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy



 
Speaking of the Ceasars did you watch Mary Beard's marvellous debunking of the Caligula 'legend' or 'bootikins' as she called him? Would that we had a scholar of that credibility and presence to do the same for Richard.

________________________________
From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:57
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 

Claude's parents may well have thought of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, or of his family, the gens Claudia, which had been a force in Roman politics for five centuries prior to Claudius' birth.

Ironically, many Latin scholars nowadays think the gens name came from a word other than "claudus", though at the time of Claude's birth the assumption that the gens Claudia got its name from an association with lameness -- an assumption the existence of the genuinely lame Emperor Claudius would have strengthened -- was accepted without question as far as I know.

Tamara

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As  in 'I Claudius'?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>  
>
> "Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.
>
> Tamara
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used whenàasking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'à when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family.à
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
> >
> > (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
> >
> > Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> > look at her.à GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> > mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> > aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> > hunchback and pock-marked face.
> >
> > Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> > physical beauty is concerned.
> >
> > So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.à The Claude I'm talking about was,
> > indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.à Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> > married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.à She and Charles had
> > many children but none survived.à She had several children by Louis, but
> > only Claude and a sister Renee survived.à This was the Louis who married
> > Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
> >
> > Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >
> > >
> > > Ooh!à Found reference in GoogleBooks:à _Queens and Mistresses of
> > > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.à I'm a bad girl).à She quotes
> > > the the following about Claude:
> > >
> > > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> > >
> > > Negative remarks on Claudeââ¬â¢s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > > comment."
> > >
> > > Now I feel better....
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > > Garrett
> > > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > > short, and was hunchbacked.à Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > > home tonight.
> > > >
> > > > Maria
> > > > ejbronte@
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > > was
> > > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > > Joan of
> > > >> France.
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > > >>
> > > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > > >>
> > > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > > Nassau,
> > > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > > >> fashion.
> > > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > > emperor,
> > > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > > >> the
> > > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > > treaty
> > > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > > to
> > > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > > was
> > > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > > >>
> > > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > > >> Helen
> > > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > > >>
> > > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > > marriages,
> > > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.à What we
> > > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.à I
> > > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > > of
> > > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.à Some
> > > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > > was
> > > >> a
> > > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > > Aragon.
> > > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > > >> Juana,
> > > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > > >> Philip's
> > > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > > >> Aragon
> > > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.à For the record, she (Claude) was
> > > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maria
> > > >>
> > > >> ejbronte@
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > > >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > **
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > > >> > Marie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > > but
> > > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > > ceremony?
> > > >> > Only the brideââ¬â¢s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > > >> between
> > > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > > >> Brittaine
> > > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > > her,
> > > >> as
> > > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > > >> these
> > > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > > >> bride,
> > > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianââ¬â¢s
> > > >>
> > > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > > >> noble
> > > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > > >> between
> > > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > > >> (whose
> > > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > > draw
> > > >> not
> > > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > > >> lady
> > > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > > >> wars
> > > >> > . . . .
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >à
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

liz williams wrote:

"I did - and yes, if only! But why is it that WOTR seems to attract people
who are not academic historians and yet the ancient world doesn't? Bettany
Hughes has been criticised in the past for not having a PhD in her subject
("merely" a first degree - from Oxford) although I think she now has an
honorary one but she is 100 times the historian that PG is. Do they simply
set the bar higher and if so why?"

Could it be that well-known "classical education" so prevalent for so long
amongst the British upper and middle classes?
Plus, of course, anything to do with ancient Rome or Greece obviously had
absolutely nothing in common with their Britain!
Doug
(who does like a little snark now and then, especially as it's
non-fattening...)

Liz

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: ""
<>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 9:06
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy


Speaking of the Ceasars did you watch Mary Beard's marvellous debunking of
the Caligula 'legend' or 'bootikins' as she called him? Would that we had a
scholar of that credibility and presence to do the same for Richard.

________________________________
From: maroonnavywhite <mailto:khafara%40aol.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:57
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy



Claude's parents may well have thought of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus
Germanicus, or of his family, the gens Claudia, which had been a force in
Roman politics for five centuries prior to Claudius' birth.

Ironically, many Latin scholars nowadays think the gens name came from a
word other than "claudus", though at the time of Claude's birth the
assumption that the gens Claudia got its name from an association with
lameness -- an assumption the existence of the genuinely lame Emperor
Claudius would have strengthened -- was accepted without question as far as
I know.

Tamara

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones
<hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As  in 'I Claudius'?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
> Â
>
> "Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in
> Latin.
>
> Tamara
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones
> <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my
> > Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used whenÃÂ asking why no-one in
> > France noticed Richard's 'deformity'ÃÂ when you would have thought it
> > would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal
> > family.ÃÂ
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
> >
> > (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
> >
> > Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he
> > couldn't
> > look at her.ÃÂ GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related
> > books
> > mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like
> > they
> > aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> > hunchback and pock-marked face.
> >
> > Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> > physical beauty is concerned.
> >
> > So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.ÃÂ The Claude I'm talking about
> > was,
> > indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.ÃÂ Her father was Louis XII, whom
> > Anne
> > married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.ÃÂ She and Charles
> > had
> > many children but none survived.ÃÂ She had several children by Louis,
> > but
> > only Claude and a sister Renee survived.ÃÂ This was the Louis who
> > married
> > Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
> >
> > Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as
> > maternally.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who
> > > had
> > > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' -
> > > unless
> > > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >
> > >
> > > Ooh!ÃÂ Found reference in GoogleBooks:ÃÂ _Queens and Mistresses of
> > > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.ÃÂ I'm a bad girl).ÃÂ
> > > She quotes
> > > the the following about Claude:
> > >
> > > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young
> > > girl
> > > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked,
> > > and
> > > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with
> > > a
> > > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for
> > > her
> > > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young,
> > > and
> > > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said
> > > to be
> > > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> > >
> > > Negative remarks on Claudeââ¬â¢s looks never connoted an attack on
> > > her
> > > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no
> > > adverse
> > > comment."
> > >
> > > Now I feel better....
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > > Garrett
> > > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was
> > > > very
> > > > short, and was hunchbacked.ÃÂ Unfortunately. I'm not at home to
> > > > reach for
> > > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look
> > > > at
> > > > home tonight.
> > > >
> > > > Maria
> > > > ejbronte@
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464)
> > > >> who
> > > was
> > > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > > Joan of
> > > >> France.
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > >> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > > >>
> > > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > > >>
> > > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy.
> > > >> Since
> > > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > > Nassau,
> > > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > > >> fashion.
> > > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess,
> > > >> and
> > > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > > emperor,
> > > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch,
> > > >> while
> > > >> the
> > > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the
> > > >> ceremony
> > > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both
> > > >> France and
> > > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > > treaty
> > > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was
> > > >> not
> > > to
> > > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that
> > > >> it
> > > was
> > > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > > >>
> > > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen,
> > > >> by
> > > >> Helen
> > > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > > >>
> > > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > > marriages,
> > > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have
> > > >> been
> > > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.ÃÂ
> > > >> What we
> > > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of
> > > >> Brittany.ÃÂ I
> > > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles
> > > >> VIII
> > > of
> > > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.ÃÂ
> > > >> Some
> > > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband
> > > >> Philip
> > > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of
> > > >> which
> > > was
> > > >> a
> > > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > > Aragon.
> > > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties
> > > >> which
> > > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to
> > > >> subjugate
> > > >> Juana,
> > > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying
> > > >> the
> > > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > > >> Philip's
> > > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine
> > > >> of
> > > >> Aragon
> > > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.ÃÂ For the record, she
> > > >> (Claude) was
> > > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maria
> > > >>
> > > >> ejbronte@
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > > >> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > **
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > > >> > Marie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com,
> > > >> > "SandraMachin"
> > > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing
> > > >> > (sorry)
> > > but
> > > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > > ceremony?
> > > >> > Only the brideââ¬â¢s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited
> > > >> > > by
> > > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > > >> between
> > > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > > >> Brittaine
> > > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far
> > > >> > forth
> > > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons
> > > >> > about
> > > her,
> > > >> as
> > > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time
> > > >> > in
> > > >> these
> > > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated
> > > >> > as a
> > > >> bride,
> > > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in
> > > >> > Maximilianââ¬â¢s
> > > >>
> > > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of
> > > >> > sundry
> > > >> noble
> > > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > > >> between
> > > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be
> > > >> > thought to
> > > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done,
> > > >> > Maximilian
> > > >> (whose
> > > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers,
> > > >> > that
> > > draw
> > > >> not
> > > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded
> > > >> > the
> > > >> lady
> > > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now
> > > >> > all
> > > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and
> > > >> > intended his
> > > >> wars
> > > >> > . . . .
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >ÃÂ
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>










------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Well you were never going to turn a Roman Emperor of this period into a whitewashed saint. She certainly trashed Tiberius.


________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 15:20
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 

I wouldn't entirely agree that she de-bunked the legend; just took a critical look at what was trustworthy and/or plausible.  It was a bit like going from Seward to Ross.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 9:06
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy


 
Speaking of the Ceasars did you watch Mary Beard's marvellous debunking of the Caligula 'legend' or 'bootikins' as she called him? Would that we had a scholar of that credibility and presence to do the same for Richard.

________________________________
From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:57
Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy

 

Claude's parents may well have thought of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, or of his family, the gens Claudia, which had been a force in Roman politics for five centuries prior to Claudius' birth.

Ironically, many Latin scholars nowadays think the gens name came from a word other than "claudus", though at the time of Claude's birth the assumption that the gens Claudia got its name from an association with lameness -- an assumption the existence of the genuinely lame Emperor Claudius would have strengthened -- was accepted without question as far as I know.

Tamara

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As  in 'I Claudius'?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: maroonnavywhite <khafara@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 18:16
> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
>
>  
>
> "Claude" may have been picked as a name because "claudus" means "lame" in Latin.
>
> Tamara
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Now that is interesting. I'm so sorry, I'm mixing my Claude's with my Jeannes. It was one of the arguments I used whenàasking why no-one in France noticed Richard's 'deformity'à when you would have thought it would have been remarked on given the prevalence in the French royal family.à
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 17:31
> > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> >
> >
> > _The Big Book of Women Saints_:
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=sjWsJZlJPNsC&pg=PA60&dq=joan+of+berry+1464&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6JT2Ub3-E5Sa9QTnjoCICA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joan%20of%20berry%201464&f=false
> >
> > (I'm not falling into the trap of buying this one!)
> >
> > Says Louis' daughter Jeanne was so deformed and unattractive, he couldn't
> > look at her.à GoogleBooks turned up a couple of other saint-related books
> > mentioning Jeanne of Berry and commenting on deformities - looks like they
> > aren't always sure which ones they were, precisely, but do mention
> > hunchback and pock-marked face.
> >
> > Not that the Valois clan in general was anything to moon over, as far as
> > physical beauty is concerned.
> >
> > So both Jeanne and Claude were disabled.à The Claude I'm talking about was,
> > indeed, daughter of Anne of Brittany.à Her father was Louis XII, whom Anne
> > married after the death of her husband Charles VIII.à She and Charles had
> > many children but none survived.à She had several children by Louis, but
> > only Claude and a sister Renee survived.à This was the Louis who married
> > Mary (oh so briefly...), youngest sister of Henry VIII.
> >
> > Anne of Brittany had a hard time of it, politically as well as maternally.
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to confuse things Anne of Britanny also had daughter Claude, who had
> > > many children. It was Louis XI's daughter who was a 'hunchback' - unless
> > > they both were; I honestly don't know.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 16:26
> > > Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > >
> > >
> > > Ooh!à Found reference in GoogleBooks:à _Queens and Mistresses of
> > > Renaissance France_ by Kathleen Wellman (2013 publication according to
> > > Amazon, and I just bought the Kindle volume.à I'm a bad girl).à She quotes
> > > the the following about Claude:
> > >
> > > "The Austrian ambassador reported that Claude was 'a retiring young girl
> > > with a pale complexion, thin, a little sickly, slightly hunchbacked, and
> > > rather unattractive,' commenting further that 'she was very small with a
> > > strange corpulence' but 'her grace in speaking compensated greatly for her
> > > lack of beauty' 31 (fig. 3.3). Beatis remarked: 'The Queen is young, and
> > > though small in stature, plain, and badly lame in both hips, is said to be
> > > very cultivated, generous, and pious.'
> > >
> > > Negative remarks on Claudeââ¬â¢s looks never connoted an attack on her
> > > character or actions; she is the only queen of France to provoke no adverse
> > > comment."
> > >
> > > Now I feel better....
> > >
> > > Maria
> > > ejbronte@
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For sure Jeanne de France suffered this; I do remember reading (in
> > > Garrett
> > > > Mattingly's bio of Catherine of Aragon, I *think*) that Claude was very
> > > > short, and was hunchbacked.à Unfortunately. I'm not at home to reach for
> > > > Mattingly, but will see what I can find, and try to remember to look at
> > > > home tonight.
> > > >
> > > > Maria
> > > > ejbronte@
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> It was Jeanne de France, younger daughter of Louis XI (born 1464) who
> > > was
> > > >> a hunchback and divorced by Louis XII because of her infirmity - St
> > > Joan of
> > > >> France.
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013, 15:45
> > > >>
> > > >> Subject: Re: Royal Marriage by Proxy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, here's basically the same story recorded in a bio of Anne of
> > > >> Brittany, from 1917:
> > > >>
> > > >> "The wedding, which took place in 1490, was a marriage by proxy. Since
> > > >> Maximilian could not come, he sent his emissary, Polhain, count of
> > > Nassau,
> > > >> in his place, and the ceremony was conducted in the strange German
> > > >> fashion.
> > > >> The yonng prin cess, dressed as a bride,1 received in bed the aged
> > > >> ambassador, who, in the presence of three envoys, of her governess, and
> > > >> other of the house hold, held in his hand the procuration of the
> > > emperor,
> > > >> and introduced one leg, bared to the knee, into the bridal couch, while
> > > >> the
> > > >> other leg remained booted and spurred. When the details of the ceremony
> > > >> were known they became a subject of mirth and mockery in both France and
> > > >> Brittany. In truth this marriage was really a violation of the last
> > > treaty
> > > >> with France, the treaty of Verger, which stipulated "that Anne was not
> > > to
> > > >> marry with out the consent of the king," but Brittany claimed that it
> > > was
> > > >> permitted by another treaty, the treaty of Ulm."
> > > >>
> > > >> (Anne of Brittany, the Story of A Duchess and Twice-Crowned Queen, by
> > > >> Helen
> > > >> Josephine Sanborn)
> > > >>
> > > >> But already I distrust the source because this method of proxy
> > > marriages,
> > > >> as we've already learned, was pretty common, so there wouldn't have been
> > > >> any more or less mockery for this ceremony than for any other.à What we
> > > >> need, of course, is a primary source for Maxxy and Anne of Brittany.à I
> > > >> don't have any Flemish or French chronicles, but if I get chances
> > > >> throughout the day, I'll see what Google has to yield up to us.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is the same Anne of Brittany who ended up married to Charles VIII
> > > of
> > > >> France, who was originally proxied to Maxxy's daughter Margaret.à Some
> > > >> years later, Anne would run into Juana of Castile and her husband Philip
> > > >> the Handsome, on their first trip back to Spain, the purpose of which
> > > was
> > > >> a
> > > >> disastrous attempt to educate Philip in the politcs of Castile and
> > > Aragon.
> > > >> Charles cornered Philip and manipulated him into several treaties which
> > > >> didn't please Fernando at all; meanwhile Anne attempted to subjugate
> > > >> Juana,
> > > >> who left her freezing in church, and who wound up the visit defying the
> > > >> French (and Flemish) by dressing in Castilian style.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anne's daughter, Claude, would originally be promised to Juana and
> > > >> Philip's
> > > >> son Charles but ended up married to Francois I, and met Catherine of
> > > >> Aragon
> > > >> during the Field of the Cloth of Gold.à For the record, she (Claude) was
> > > >> also said to have had a hunchback.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maria
> > > >>
> > > >> ejbronte@
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mariewalsh2003
> > > >> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > **
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can we trust Bacon?
> > > >> > Marie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In , "SandraMachin"
> > > >> > <sandramachin@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > > >> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry)
> > > but
> > > >> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this
> > > ceremony?
> > > >> > Only the brideââ¬â¢s, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by
> > > >> > Francis Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage
> > > >> between
> > > >> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with
> > > >> Brittaine
> > > >> > to a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth
> > > >> > prevailed both with the young lady and the principal persons about
> > > her,
> > > >> as
> > > >> > the marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in
> > > >> these
> > > >> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a
> > > >> bride,
> > > >> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilianââ¬â¢s
> > > >>
> > > >> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry
> > > >> noble
> > > >> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee)
> > > >> between
> > > >> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > > >> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian
> > > >> (whose
> > > >> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > > >> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that
> > > draw
> > > >> not
> > > >> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the
> > > >> lady
> > > >> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > > >> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his
> > > >> wars
> > > >> > . . . .
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >à
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Does anyone know where the king's castle of Hennyngham' might be? Maybe Yorkshire. Henry VII was there at the end of May 1489, and in York immediately before and after. Maybe my little grey cells have taken another day awol. If it's glaringly obvious, I already hang my head in shame.

Sandra
=^..^=

Prince Arthur was married by proxy to Catherine of Aragon at Tickenhill Palace in Bewdley Worcestershire.

--- In , Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
>
> I remember reading that one unfortunate proxy accidentally undid the wrong
> laces and very nearly caused a small international incident.
>
> Dr. de Puebla was Catherine of Aragon's proxy for Prince Arthur.
>
> Maximilian's daughter, Margaret, was wed by proxy to Charles VIII of
> France, who threw her over for Anne of Brittany. Margaret was then proxied
> to Juan, only son of the Catholic Kings. There was a tremendous storm at
> sea while she traveled to Spain, and she composed the following self-eulogy:
>
> "Here lies Margaret, the willing bride.
> Twice married. But a virgin when she died."
>
> So as far as she was concerned, at least ironically, "proxy" definitely
> meant "married".
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 7:13 AM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > OK, I know the following contains bare facts (sorry) and that the
> > diplomacy and political pressure have a considerable bearing (sorry) but
> > how many straight faces could there possibly have been at this ceremony?
> > Only the bride's, I imagine. Love the ill archers. =^..^=
> >
> > From The History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh, edited by Francis
> > Bacon and Jerry Weinberger. Concerning the proxy marriage between
> > Maximilian of Austria and Anne of Brittany in June 1489. . . . .
> >
> > . . . .[Maximilian was advised] to press on his marriage with Brittaine to
> > a conclusion; which Maximilian accordingly did; and so far forth prevailed
> > both with the young lady and the principal persons about her, as the
> > marriage was consummate by proxy with a ceremony at that time in these
> > parts new. For she was not only publicly contracted, but stated as a bride,
> > and solemnly bedded, and after she was laid there came in Maximilian's
> > ambassador with letters of procuration, and in the presence of sundry noble
> > personages, men and women, put his leg (stript naked to the knee) between
> > the espousal sheets, to the end that that ceremony might be thought to
> > amount to consummation and actual knowledge. This done, Maximilian (whose
> > property was to leave things then when they were almost comen to
> > perfection, and to end them by imagination; like ill archers, that draw not
> > their arrows up to the head; and who might as easily have bedded the lady
> > himself as to have made a play and disguise of it,) thinking now all
> > assured, neglected for a time his further proceeding, and intended his wars
> > . . . .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

There is a Castle Hedingham but thats in Essex - not local to York...
You could contact Abigail Fox - Lost in Castles on facebook - they've just
done the reconstrution of Conway Castle on DVD - if anyone would know she
should...
Cheers!



On 31 July 2013 05:30, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Does anyone know where ýthe kingýs castle of Hennynghamý might be? Maybe
> Yorkshire. Henry VII was there at the end of May 1489, and in York
> immediately before and after. Maybe my little grey cells have taken another
> day awol. If itýs glaringly obvious, I already hang my head in shame.
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=
>
>
>
>
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>

There's also a place called Honingham I think but that's in Norfolk.
 

Liz

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 31/7/13, Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique <lisa.holtjones@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: Hennyngham
To:
Date: Wednesday, 31 July, 2013, 12:43

There is a Castle Hedingham but thats
in Essex - not local to York...
You could contact Abigail Fox - Lost in Castles on facebook
- they've just
done the reconstrution of Conway Castle on DVD - if anyone
would know she
should...
Cheers!



On 31 July 2013 05:30, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
wrote:

> **
>
>
> Does anyone know where the king's castle of
Hennyngham' might be? Maybe
> Yorkshire. Henry VII was there at the end of May 1489,
and in York
> immediately before and after. Maybe my little grey
cells have taken another
> day awol. If it's glaringly obvious, I already hang
my head in shame.
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=
>
>
>
> 
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation
Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


    [email protected]

Thank you, Lisa. I'll contact her. =^..^=

-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 12:43 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Hennyngham

There is a Castle Hedingham but thats in Essex - not local to York...
You could contact Abigail Fox - Lost in Castles on facebook - they've just
done the reconstrution of Conway Castle on DVD - if anyone would know she
should...
Cheers!

On 31 July 2013 05:30, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Does anyone know where the king's castle of Hennyngham' might be? Maybe
> Yorkshire. Henry VII was there at the end of May 1489, and in York
> immediately before and after. Maybe my little grey cells have taken
> another
> day awol. If it's glaringly obvious, I already hang my head in shame.
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=
>
>
>
>
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Should anyone wonder where Hennyngham is after all, it is the Castle Hedingham in Essex. Abigail Fox kindly wrote back to me. There would appear to be an error in the year. My research led me to believe Henry had been in York on either side of being in Hennyngham, but the visit to Essex was most probably 1488, not 1489. Henry was definitely in York in 1489. =^..^=

Abigail's response:
Michael J. Bennet's Henry VII and Northern Rising of 1489 in English Historical Review has Hennyngham Castle in Essex, better known as Hedingham Castle. The castle was restored by John de Vere, under Henry VII, out of the King's gratitude, so it would certainly be seen as one of Henry's castles.


The spelling "Henyngham" is also used in the Paston Letters (6th - 13th May 1488, by William Paston). I have made third confirmation by tracing some legal records for the county of Essex where the following were accused of trespass:

Poppley, John, of Rayley, gent; Maunche, Robert, of Purley, yeoman; Antony, John, of Canoudon, yeoman; Legge, John, of Maldon, yeoman; Mathewe, Thomas, of Castle Henyngham, yeoman; Lyndesey, John, of Maldon, yeoman; Anderkyn, John, of Canoudon, yeoman



From: liz williams
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 1:14 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Hennyngham


There's also a place called Honingham I think but that's in Norfolk.


Liz

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 31/7/13, Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique <mailto:lisa.holtjones%40googlemail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Hennyngham
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 31 July, 2013, 12:43

There is a Castle Hedingham but thats
in Essex - not local to York...
You could contact Abigail Fox - Lost in Castles on facebook
- they've just
done the reconstrution of Conway Castle on DVD - if anyone
would know she
should...
Cheers!



On 31 July 2013 05:30, SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
wrote:

> **
>
>
> Does anyone know where the king's castle of
Hennyngham' might be? Maybe
> Yorkshire. Henry VII was there at the end of May 1489,
and in York
> immediately before and after. Maybe my little grey
cells have taken another
> day awol. If it's glaringly obvious, I already hang
my head in shame.
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=

From the Hedingham castle site:

Fortunes changed frequently during the chaos and anarchy of the Wars of the Roses. John, the thirteenth Earl of Oxford, was exiled after the Battle of Barnet Field and thrown into prison in Calais for twelve years. He escaped, led the vanguard at the Battle of Bosworth Field and restored the Lancastrian Henry VII. He also restored the fortunes of Hedingham, having been hugely rewarded by a grateful Henry, and built the Tudor bridge, which still leads the way from the drive to the keep. Though godfather to Henry's son, the future Henry VIII, John was possibly treated rather unjustly by the king he had put back on the throne. Henry had been staying at Hedingham in August 1498, where he had been sumptuously entertained in the Banqueting Hall of the keep. As he was leaving, the Earl of Oxford lined his route with armed retainers emblazoned with the de Vere livery, and the King promptly fined him a fortune for presuming to demonstrate too great a power.

How very typical.

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know where ‘the king’s castle of Hennyngham’ might be? Maybe Yorkshire. Henry VII was there at the end of May 1489, and in York immediately before and after. Maybe my little grey cells have taken another day awol. If it’s glaringly obvious, I already hang my head in shame.
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=
>
>
>
>

Thank you for that, David. But how very unwise of Oxford. That's what you get for supporting the wrong side. =^..^=


From: davidarayner
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 3:37 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Hennyngham


From the Hedingham castle site:

Fortunes changed frequently during the chaos and anarchy of the Wars of the Roses. John, the thirteenth Earl of Oxford, was exiled after the Battle of Barnet Field and thrown into prison in Calais for twelve years. He escaped, led the vanguard at the Battle of Bosworth Field and restored the Lancastrian Henry VII. He also restored the fortunes of Hedingham, having been hugely rewarded by a grateful Henry, and built the Tudor bridge, which still leads the way from the drive to the keep. Though godfather to Henry's son, the future Henry VIII, John was possibly treated rather unjustly by the king he had put back on the throne. Henry had been staying at Hedingham in August 1498, where he had been sumptuously entertained in the Banqueting Hall of the keep. As he was leaving, the Earl of Oxford lined his route with armed retainers emblazoned with the de Vere livery, and the King promptly fined him a fortune for presuming to demonstrate too great a power.

How very typical.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know where ‘the king’s castle of Hennyngham’ might be? Maybe Yorkshire. Henry VII was there at the end of May 1489, and in York immediately before and after. Maybe my little grey cells have taken another day awol. If it’s glaringly obvious, I already hang my head in shame.
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=

--- In , "davidarayner" <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> From the Hedingham castle site:
>
> Fortunes changed frequently during the chaos and anarchy of the Wars of the Roses. John, the thirteenth Earl of Oxford, was exiled after the Battle of Barnet Field and thrown into prison in Calais for twelve years. He escaped, led the vanguard at the Battle of Bosworth Field and restored the Lancastrian Henry VII. He also restored the fortunes of Hedingham, having been hugely rewarded by a grateful Henry, and built the Tudor bridge, which still leads the way from the drive to the keep. Though godfather to Henry's son, the future Henry VIII, John was possibly treated rather unjustly by the king he had put back on the throne. Henry had been staying at Hedingham in August 1498, where he had been sumptuously entertained in the Banqueting Hall of the keep. As he was leaving, the Earl of Oxford lined his route with armed retainers emblazoned with the de Vere livery, and the King promptly fined him a fortune for presuming to demonstrate too great a power.
>
> How very typical.

Carol responds:

"Restored" the "Lancastrian" Henry VII? "put [Henry] *back* on the throne"? Where do they get this "information"?

But Henry fining de Vere for presuming to display his livery--how typical, indeed.

Carol