Fish garths - Help!

Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.

Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.

(I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits, such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding those darned fish garths!)

You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into the 1460s?

Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D

I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!

Judy

The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).

try this link...
http://historum.com/blogs/crystal+rainbow/844-scottish-campaign.html
it's about half way down about the fish garths!


On 1 August 2013 14:33, Judy <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
>
> Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
>
> (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> those darned fish garths!)
>
> You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> the 1460s?
>
> Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
>
> I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
>
> Judy
>
> The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
>
>
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>

Big thanks, Lisa! I hope to become a Fish Garth Authority (just kidding, but the more I find, the happier I'll be :-D

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: "Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique" <lisa.holtjones@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!


try this link...
http://historum.com/blogs/crystal+rainbow/844-scottish-campaign.html
it's about half way down about the fish garths!


On 1 August 2013 14:33, Judy <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
>
> Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
>
> (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> those darned fish garths!)
>
> You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> the 1460s?
>
> Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
>
> I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
>
> Judy
>
> The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
>
> 
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Have you tried the York Civic Records? Davies is on-line, I think. And
maybe search on "fishgarth" if you haven't already.

A J


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Judy <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
>
> Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
>
> (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> those darned fish garths!)
>
> You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> the 1460s?
>
> Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
>
> I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
>
> Judy
>
> The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
>
>
>

LOL! I used the key words duke of gloucester fishgarth (all one word as AJ
typed it) made the difference...
Enjoy your fishing trip!


On 1 August 2013 14:46, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Big thanks, Lisa! I hope to become a Fish Garth Authority (just kidding,
> but the more I find, the happier I'll be :-D
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique" <lisa.holtjones@...>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 12:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
> try this link...
> http://historum.com/blogs/crystal+rainbow/844-scottish-campaign.html
> it's about half way down about the fish garths!
>
> On 1 August 2013 14:33, Judy <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> > of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
> >
> > Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> > kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> > book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but
> I
> > can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
> >
> > (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> > needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> > such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as
> dedicated
> > to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius?
> Or
> > maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> > those darned fish garths!)
> >
> > You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> > starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> > City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> > during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> > (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> > the 1460s?
> >
> > Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
> >
> > I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
> >
> > Judy
> >
> > The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> > the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> > Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> > Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Lisa
> The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
> Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
> Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329
>
> www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
> Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
> View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
> <
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>

If you can get hold of Attreed's edition, The York House Books, which is complete for the years it covers, then that would be better. There is loads of information in there on the fishgarth commissions and how they went about things.
The fishgarths, as you probably know, were fish traps erected in the rivers, usually by major landowners, and usually illegally. They had two detrimental effects - first they impeded navigation, and second they nabbed all the fish. As I seem to recall, the commissions to go looking for them and destroy them were appointed by the King. The commissioners actually had to go up the rivers by boat looking for these things, and have someone pull them down. I seem to recall being told they had a pole with a hook on the end, or something. Anyhow, all exciting stuff.
Marie

--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Have you tried the York Civic Records? Davies is on-line, I think. And
> maybe search on "fishgarth" if you haven't already.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Judy <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> > of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
> >
> > Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> > kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> > book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> > can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
> >
> > (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> > needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> > such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> > to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> > maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> > those darned fish garths!)
> >
> > You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> > starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> > City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> > during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> > (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> > the 1460s?
> >
> > Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
> >
> > I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
> >
> > Judy
> >
> > The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> > the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> > Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> > Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Thanks!!! I've suddenly rediscovered three stacks of books! Davies may be there. Also, my "missing" Kendall. Sometimes, you need a nudge from friends to get one's house in order. 

Good grief! And here's a second copy of Annette's book. WooHoo! This is like Christmas!

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!


Have you tried the York Civic Records?  Davies is on-line, I think.  And
maybe search on "fishgarth" if you haven't already.

A J


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Judy <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
>
> Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
>
> (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> those darned fish garths!)
>
> You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> the 1460s?
>
> Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
>
> I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
>
> Judy
>
> The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

That's probably been my failing - I don't think like a computer, LoL!

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: "Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique" <lisa.holtjones@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!


LOL! I used the key words duke of gloucester fishgarth (all one word as AJ
typed it) made the difference...
Enjoy your fishing trip!


On 1 August 2013 14:46, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Big thanks, Lisa! I hope to become a Fish Garth Authority (just kidding,
> but the more I find, the happier I'll be :-D
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique" <lisa.holtjones@...>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 12:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
> try this link...
> http://historum.com/blogs/crystal+rainbow/844-scottish-campaign.html
> it's about half way down about the fish garths!
>
> On 1 August 2013 14:33, Judy <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> > of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
> >
> > Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> > kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> > book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but
> I
> > can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
> >
> > (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> > needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> > such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as
> dedicated
> > to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius?
> Or
> > maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> > those darned fish garths!)
> >
> > You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> > starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> > City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> > during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> > (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> > the 1460s?
> >
> > Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
> >
> > I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
> >
> > Judy
> >
> > The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> > the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> > Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> > Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Lisa
> The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
> Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
> Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329
>
> www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
> Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
> View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
> <
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Thanks, Marie. The Attreed books may be among my stacks. What a great excuse for going through everything that has ended up in dusty corners! My husband sends hugs!

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 
If you can get hold of Attreed's edition, The York House Books, which is complete for the years it covers, then that would be better. There is loads of information in there on the fishgarth commissions and how they went about things.
The fishgarths, as you probably know, were fish traps erected in the rivers, usually by major landowners, and usually illegally. They had two detrimental effects - first they impeded navigation, and second they nabbed all the fish. As I seem to recall, the commissions to go looking for them and destroy them were appointed by the King. The commissioners actually had to go up the rivers by boat looking for these things, and have someone pull them down. I seem to recall being told they had a pole with a hook on the end, or something. Anyhow, all exciting stuff.
Marie

--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Have you tried the York Civic Records? Davies is on-line, I think. And
> maybe search on "fishgarth" if you haven't already.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Judy <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> > of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
> >
> > Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> > kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> > book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> > can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
> >
> > (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> > needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> > such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> > to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> > maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> > those darned fish garths!)
> >
> > You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> > starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> > City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> > during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> > (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> > the 1460s?
> >
> > Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
> >
> > I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
> >
> > Judy
> >
> > The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> > the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> > Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> > Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Hello re Fishgarths see
Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
Vol 1 York House Books page 130
Christine Holmes


Mentions his " home coming "
--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Marie. The Attreed books may be among my stacks. What a great excuse for going through everything that has ended up in dusty corners! My husband sends hugs!
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 1:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>  
> If you can get hold of Attreed's edition, The York House Books, which is complete for the years it covers, then that would be better. There is loads of information in there on the fishgarth commissions and how they went about things.
> The fishgarths, as you probably know, were fish traps erected in the rivers, usually by major landowners, and usually illegally. They had two detrimental effects - first they impeded navigation, and second they nabbed all the fish. As I seem to recall, the commissions to go looking for them and destroy them were appointed by the King. The commissioners actually had to go up the rivers by boat looking for these things, and have someone pull them down. I seem to recall being told they had a pole with a hook on the end, or something. Anyhow, all exciting stuff.
> Marie
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> >
> > Have you tried the York Civic Records? Davies is on-line, I think. And
> > maybe search on "fishgarth" if you haven't already.
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Judy <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> > > of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
> > >
> > > Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> > > kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> > > book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> > > can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
> > >
> > > (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> > > needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> > > such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> > > to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> > > maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> > > those darned fish garths!)
> > >
> > > You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> > > starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> > > City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> > > during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> > > (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> > > the 1460s?
> > >
> > > Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
> > >
> > > I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
> > >
> > > Judy
> > >
> > > The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> > > the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> > > Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> > > Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Christine!
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 


Hello re Fishgarths see
Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
Vol 1 York House Books page 130
Christine Holmes


Mentions his " home coming "
--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Marie. The Attreed books may be among my stacks. What a great excuse for going through everything that has ended up in dusty corners! My husband sends hugs!
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 1:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>  
> If you can get hold of Attreed's edition, The York House Books, which is complete for the years it covers, then that would be better. There is loads of information in there on the fishgarth commissions and how they went about things.
> The fishgarths, as you probably know, were fish traps erected in the rivers, usually by major landowners, and usually illegally. They had two detrimental effects - first they impeded navigation, and second they nabbed all the fish. As I seem to recall, the commissions to go looking for them and destroy them were appointed by the King. The commissioners actually had to go up the rivers by boat looking for these things, and have someone pull them down. I seem to recall being told they had a pole with a hook on the end, or something. Anyhow, all exciting stuff.
> Marie
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> >
> > Have you tried the York Civic Records? Davies is on-line, I think. And
> > maybe search on "fishgarth" if you haven't already.
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Judy <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> > > of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
> > >
> > > Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> > > kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> > > book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> > > can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
> > >
> > > (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> > > needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> > > such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> > > to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> > > maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> > > those darned fish garths!)
> > >
> > > You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> > > starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> > > City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> > > during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> > > (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> > > the 1460s?
> > >
> > > Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
> > >
> > > I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
> > >
> > > Judy
> > >
> > > The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> > > the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> > > Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> > > Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Here's a direct citation from P.M. Kendall's "Richard III."

Kendall, P.M., Richard III, pp. 157-158 and p. 532, n. 7.

Hope this saves you some time in the index.

Marion

--- In , "Judy" <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
>
> Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
>
> (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits, such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding those darned fish garths!)
>
> You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into the 1460s?
>
> Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
>
> I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
>
> Judy
>
> The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
>

Dear Marion,

Not only saved me time, but as I've admitted, I thought my Kendall m.i.a. - one of those lent out books that never return. Or worse, that when I'd last culled my library, it had ended up in the pile To Go. My Ross books went this route, I fear. I thought I wouldn't miss them. Of course, I did get rid of Seward, Hicks, and a few I shan't regret pitching. But.... For several years, I was also missing the last two volumes of Harleian...I replaced them, at last.

But the good news is that if anyone needs a "look up," I owe them. You, Marie, Joan, et al. Lesson learned. Beginning tomorrow, I'm clearing certain shelves and putting "Richard" in order. 

So if anyone needs help, I discovered both volumes of the Atreed York Records, a repro of Dictes of the Philosophers, and bunches more things I've no recollection even buying that were tucked in a trunk! The thing to do is properly sort, alphabetize, then make a printed list, which I'll put in a cello sleeve and mount on the end of the book cases!!! Never again will Italo Calvino sit cheek to jowl with the Harleian....

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: phaecilia <phaecilia@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 
Here's a direct citation from P.M. Kendall's "Richard III."

Kendall, P.M., Richard III, pp. 157-158 and p. 532, n. 7.

Hope this saves you some time in the index.

Marion

--- In , "Judy" <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
>
> Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
>
> (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits, such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding those darned fish garths!)
>
> You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into the 1460s?
>
> Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
>
> I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
>
> Judy
>
> The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
>

--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello re Fishgarths see
> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> Mentions his " home coming "

Carol responds:

How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).

Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:

"Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477

"[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)

Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)

I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.

Carol

Thanks, Carol! I so appreciate your taking the time :-) And the bit about the pikes and swans was an unexpected treat (hope they were tasty!)

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 


--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello re Fishgarths see
> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> Mentions his " home coming "

Carol responds:

How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).

Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:

"Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477

"[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)

Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)

I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.

Carol

Yes Kendall is well into fishgarths. I read somewhere (oh how I wish I could remember where) that Richard applied the rules he introduced on them in York to his own fishgarths in Lancashire. He couldn't be seen to be unfair or a hypocrite. I like him for that.
 
Also, isn't there something in the YHB where the York Council petitions Edward about fishgarths and he neatly passes it on to poor old Richard again?
 
(Sorry if this has been mentioned. Trying to catch up and dash off again).


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 2 August 2013, 2:26
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!

 



--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello re Fishgarths see
> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> Mentions his " home coming "

Carol responds:

How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).

Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:

"Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477

"[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)

Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)

I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.

Carol

The way I recall it in simple terms, the monks were setting up garths
and preventing the citizens of York down river from getting any of the
good fish, while the monks grabbed the best for themselves!
Paul

On 02/08/2013 02:30, Judy Thomson wrote:
> Thanks, Carol! I so appreciate your taking the time :-) And the bit about the pikes and swans was an unexpected treat (hope they were tasty!)
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello re Fishgarths see
>> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
>> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
>> Mentions his " home coming "
> Carol responds:
>
> How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).
>
> Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:
>
> "Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477
>
> "[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)
>
> Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)
>
> I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.
>
> Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Goth, too bad no one had a taste for weirs. Things might have have been much easier!

On Aug 1, 2013, at 8:31 PM, "Judy Thomson" <judygerard.thomson@...<mailto:judygerard.thomson@...>> wrote:



Thanks, Carol! I so appreciate your taking the time :-) And the bit about the pikes and swans was an unexpected treat (hope they were tasty!)

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>>
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!




--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello re Fishgarths see
> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> Mentions his " home coming "

Carol responds:

How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).

Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:

"Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477

"[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)

Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)

I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.

Carol

OK, broke my own rule, typed before coffee......

On Aug 2, 2013, at 7:26 AM, "Pamela Bain" <pbain@...> wrote:

> Goth, too bad no one had a taste for weirs. Things might have have been much easier!
>
> On Aug 1, 2013, at 8:31 PM, "Judy Thomson" <judygerard.thomson@...<mailto:judygerard.thomson@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks, Carol! I so appreciate your taking the time :-) And the bit about the pikes and swans was an unexpected treat (hope they were tasty!)
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello re Fishgarths see
>> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
>> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
>> Mentions his " home coming "
>
> Carol responds:
>
> How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).
>
> Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:
>
> "Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477
>
> "[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)
>
> Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)
>
> I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.
>
> Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Thanks so much, Hilary! This fish garth business is actually more interesting than I guessed. At least I now realize I must have first encountered them in Kendall, around 1978. But yesterday, I woke up thinking "fish garths" (honest), and my first response was, "This might make a good joke, right?" (My husband started singing Queen and teasing me.) But as soon as all you good people headed me in the right directions, I feel I need to pursue this a bit.

 Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 
Yes Kendall is well into fishgarths. I read somewhere (oh how I wish I could remember where) that Richard applied the rules he introduced on them in York to his own fishgarths in Lancashire. He couldn't be seen to be unfair or a hypocrite. I like him for that.
 
Also, isn't there something in the YHB where the York Council petitions Edward about fishgarths and he neatly passes it on to poor old Richard again?
 
(Sorry if this has been mentioned. Trying to catch up and dash off again).


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 2 August 2013, 2:26
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!

 


--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello re Fishgarths see
> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> Mentions his " home coming "

Carol responds:

How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).

Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:

"Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477

"[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)

Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)

I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.

Carol

Now maybe we know the labour of Ms. Allison's ancestors! We can envision her tearing these things with hooks. Not too different from her current line of work....

Love,
Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 
OK, broke my own rule, typed before coffee......

On Aug 2, 2013, at 7:26 AM, "Pamela Bain" <pbain@...> wrote:

> Goth, too bad no one had a taste for weirs. Things might have have been much easier!
>
> On Aug 1, 2013, at 8:31 PM, "Judy Thomson" <judygerard.thomson@...<mailto:judygerard.thomson@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks, Carol! I so appreciate your taking the time :-) And the bit about the pikes and swans was an unexpected treat (hope they were tasty!)
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello re Fishgarths see
>> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
>> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
>> Mentions his " home coming "
>
> Carol responds:
>
> How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).
>
> Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:
>
> "Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477
>
> "[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)
>
> Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)
>
> I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.
>
> Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Again, my BIG huge thanks to everyone! And my offer stands: If I'm able, I'll look up things to help YOU in return :-)

Judy

What an amazing resource we have here! Most of all, there's a spirit of positive sharing. That's something we need more of in this world! Surely Richard would be immensely pleased :-)
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 


--- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello re Fishgarths see
> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> Mentions his " home coming "

Carol responds:

How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).

Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:

"Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477

"[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)

Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)

I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.

Carol

What amazes me (although it shouldn't, considering human nature) is how long this situation went on!

Hmm. Imagine poor Richard, seated at a table, piled chin-high with depositions from his constituents. He opens the seal of yet another letter from Big Bro ("...I'd come myself, but...*. The queen sends her love..."), and here Richard politely gags ("...Good luck with this...,"etc.). The Duke of Gloucester finally slams down his chalice from the palace [thunk] and says: "Up for a nice ride upon the river, boys? We'll hoist my banner - the really big one. Bring along lots of sharp hooks and other pointy things. Pack a dinner hamper. Some left-over roasted swans, perchance? Oh, and a few pipes of that lovely haute French wine...."

Judy

* Fill in the blank - "...the royal bed mattresses all need close inspection; rough job, but somebody's got to do it..."
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 
The way I recall it in simple terms, the monks were setting up garths
and preventing the citizens of York down river from getting any of the
good fish, while the monks grabbed the best for themselves!
Paul

On 02/08/2013 02:30, Judy Thomson wrote:
> Thanks, Carol! I so appreciate your taking the time :-) And the bit about the pikes and swans was an unexpected treat (hope they were tasty!)
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello re Fishgarths see
>> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
>> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
>> Mentions his " home coming "
> Carol responds:
>
> How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).
>
> Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:
>
> "Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477
>
> "[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)
>
> Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)
>
> I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.
>
> Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

"A commaundment to Therls of Lincolne & Northumberland the Maire of York Sir Richard Ratclyff & other to cast doon alle fisshegarthes in ousse Wherff Aire Derwent & other fresshe watters within the Countie of York/ and in especialle oone called golderne garthe in the water of Eyre etc"

Harleian Manuscript 433 I.92



--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> If you can get hold of Attreed's edition, The York House Books, which is complete for the years it covers, then that would be better. There is loads of information in there on the fishgarth commissions and how they went about things.
> The fishgarths, as you probably know, were fish traps erected in the rivers, usually by major landowners, and usually illegally. They had two detrimental effects - first they impeded navigation, and second they nabbed all the fish. As I seem to recall, the commissions to go looking for them and destroy them were appointed by the King. The commissioners actually had to go up the rivers by boat looking for these things, and have someone pull them down. I seem to recall being told they had a pole with a hook on the end, or something. Anyhow, all exciting stuff.
> Marie
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> >
> > Have you tried the York Civic Records? Davies is on-line, I think. And
> > maybe search on "fishgarth" if you haven't already.
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Judy <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> > > of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
> > >
> > > Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> > > kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> > > book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> > > can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
> > >
> > > (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> > > needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> > > such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> > > to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> > > maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> > > those darned fish garths!)
> > >
> > > You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> > > starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> > > City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> > > during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> > > (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> > > the 1460s?
> > >
> > > Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
> > >
> > > I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
> > >
> > > Judy
> > >
> > > The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> > > the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> > > Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> > > Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

FISHGARTHS thought this might be of use to forum members especially the bit about Richard's homecoming.

Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths, 15th November 1477
Vol 1 York House Books page 130
Duke of Gloucester's response concerning Fishgarths.
15th November 1477

The duc of Gloucestr constable and admiral of England

Right trusty and welbelovyd we grete you wele and asserten you that according to your desires late by your servant to us brought touching reformacion of Goldalegarth or eny other, we have moved the kynges grace in the same and therepon his said grace hathe commaunded us at our next home commyng to take a vewe and oversight of the said garthes and weeres and suche of thame as have not ben alowed afore justices of Ayre, to see at they be pulled doune, the which or eny other thing that we may do to the wele of your said cite we shall put us in our uttermost devour and gode will by Godes grace, who kepe you. Yeven under our signet at London the XV day of November
Christine Holmes
Loyaulte me Lie

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Christine!
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>  
>
>
> Hello re Fishgarths see
> Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> Christine Holmes
>
>
> Mentions his " home coming "
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Marie. The Attreed books may be among my stacks. What a great excuse for going through everything that has ended up in dusty corners! My husband sends hugs!
> >
> > Judy
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 1:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> > If you can get hold of Attreed's edition, The York House Books, which is complete for the years it covers, then that would be better. There is loads of information in there on the fishgarth commissions and how they went about things.
> > The fishgarths, as you probably know, were fish traps erected in the rivers, usually by major landowners, and usually illegally. They had two detrimental effects - first they impeded navigation, and second they nabbed all the fish. As I seem to recall, the commissions to go looking for them and destroy them were appointed by the King. The commissioners actually had to go up the rivers by boat looking for these things, and have someone pull them down. I seem to recall being told they had a pole with a hook on the end, or something. Anyhow, all exciting stuff.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Have you tried the York Civic Records? Davies is on-line, I think. And
> > > maybe search on "fishgarth" if you haven't already.
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Judy <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Among all the scholars here at the Forum, I'm hoping there's at least one
> > > > of you who knows about Richard and Fish Garths.
> > > >
> > > > Long ago, I read something, somewhere about Richard being involved in a
> > > > kerfuffle over fish garths. Well, I've gone through every index of every
> > > > book on Richard I own, then I've done all sorts of Online searches...but I
> > > > can't seem to bring "Richard" and "fish garth" into one article.
> > > >
> > > > (I've got a source for the fish eaten at Richard's Coronation, if anyone
> > > > needs to know....And I'd be glad to share what I have - look up odd bits,
> > > > such as: If you need anything from The Game and Play of Chess, as dedicated
> > > > to the Duke of Clarence? Or something from De Re Militarii by Vegetius? Or
> > > > maybe Ramon Lull's Book of Chivalry? Ah, but, I come up barren regarding
> > > > those darned fish garths!)
> > > >
> > > > You need not do the actual research for me - just get me to a good
> > > > starting place (with luck, something available Online). I even know the
> > > > City of York sued St. Mary's Abbey for erecting such garths on the Ouse
> > > > during the 1430s-40s...but unless that was a real Bleak House type case
> > > > (and maybe it was? good grief!), could it possibly have been pursued into
> > > > the 1460s?
> > > >
> > > > Go ahead - make fish garth jokes :-D
> > > >
> > > > I'll settle for those, if there's nothing else!!!
> > > >
> > > > Judy
> > > >
> > > > The only books I must rule out are the 2-volume set of The Dispatches of
> > > > the Milanese Ambassadors, which I traded - alas! - for a nice copy The
> > > > Golden Legend...in case you need to know about those saints familiar to
> > > > Richard (as opposed to all the modern ones).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I think my favorite story of Richard (and I think it's referenced in Kendall) is (summarized correspondence):

COUNCIL IN YORK: Yer Grace, for three months we've had a fellow imprisoned whose crime was badmouthing you. What do you want us to do with him?

RICHARD: Let him out.

~Weds


--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks so much, Hilary! This fish garth business is actually more interesting than I guessed. At least I now realize I must have first encountered them in Kendall, around 1978. But yesterday, I woke up thinking "fish garths" (honest), and my first response was, "This might make a good joke, right?" (My husband started singing Queen and teasing me.) But as soon as all you good people headed me in the right directions, I feel I need to pursue this a bit.
>
>  Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 1:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>  
> Yes Kendall is well into fishgarths. I read somewhere (oh how I wish I could remember where) that Richard applied the rules he introduced on them in York to his own fishgarths in Lancashire. He couldn't be seen to be unfair or a hypocrite. I like him for that.
>  
> Also, isn't there something in the YHB where the York Council petitions Edward about fishgarths and he neatly passes it on to poor old Richard again?
>  
> (Sorry if this has been mentioned. Trying to catch up and dash off again).
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 2 August 2013, 2:26
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>  
>
>
> --- In , "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello re Fishgarths see
> > Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> > Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> > Mentions his " home coming "
>
> Carol responds:
>
> How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).
>
> Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:
>
> "Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477
>
> "[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)
>
> Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)
>
> I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.
>
> Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.
>
> Carol

Just re-reading Kate Sedley's Eve of St Hyacinth. Richard (just bound for France 1475) is dictating note tearing strip off Bishop of Durham about illicit use of fishgarths. I know I keep going on about Sedley but she packs more knowledge of the period and politics in two pages of amusement than PG does in five volumes  


From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 2 August 2013, 21:32
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!

 
I think my favorite story of Richard (and I think it's referenced in Kendall) is (summarized correspondence):

COUNCIL IN YORK: Yer Grace, for three months we've had a fellow imprisoned whose crime was badmouthing you. What do you want us to do with him?

RICHARD: Let him out.

~Weds

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks so much, Hilary! This fish garth business is actually more interesting than I guessed. At least I now realize I must have first encountered them in Kendall, around 1978. But yesterday, I woke up thinking "fish garths" (honest), and my first response was, "This might make a good joke, right?" (My husband started singing Queen and teasing me.) But as soon as all you good people headed me in the right directions, I feel I need to pursue this a bit.
>
>  Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 1:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>  
> Yes Kendall is well into fishgarths. I read somewhere (oh how I wish I could remember where) that Richard applied the rules he introduced on them in York to his own fishgarths in Lancashire. He couldn't be seen to be unfair or a hypocrite. I like him for that.
>  
> Also, isn't there something in the YHB where the York Council petitions Edward about fishgarths and he neatly passes it on to poor old Richard again?
>  
> (Sorry if this has been mentioned. Trying to catch up and dash off again).
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 2 August 2013, 2:26
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>  
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello re Fishgarths see
> > Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> > Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> > Mentions his " home coming "
>
> Carol responds:
>
> How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).
>
> Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:
>
> "Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477
>
> "[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)
>
> Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)
>
> I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.
>
> Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.
>
> Carol

You and the others have been so kind and helpful. Thank you!

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2013 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Fish garths - Help!



 
Just re-reading Kate Sedley's Eve of St Hyacinth. Richard (just bound for France 1475) is dictating note tearing strip off Bishop of Durham about illicit use of fishgarths. I know I keep going on about Sedley but she packs more knowledge of the period and politics in two pages of amusement than PG does in five volumes  

From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 2 August 2013, 21:32
Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!

 
I think my favorite story of Richard (and I think it's referenced in Kendall) is (summarized correspondence):

COUNCIL IN YORK: Yer Grace, for three months we've had a fellow imprisoned whose crime was badmouthing you. What do you want us to do with him?

RICHARD: Let him out.

~Weds

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks so much, Hilary! This fish garth business is actually more interesting than I guessed. At least I now realize I must have first encountered them in Kendall, around 1978. But yesterday, I woke up thinking "fish garths" (honest), and my first response was, "This might make a good joke, right?" (My husband started singing Queen and teasing me.) But as soon as all you good people headed me in the right directions, I feel I need to pursue this a bit.
>
>  Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 1:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>
>
>  
> Yes Kendall is well into fishgarths. I read somewhere (oh how I wish I could remember where) that Richard applied the rules he introduced on them in York to his own fishgarths in Lancashire. He couldn't be seen to be unfair or a hypocrite. I like him for that.
>  
> Also, isn't there something in the YHB where the York Council petitions Edward about fishgarths and he neatly passes it on to poor old Richard again?
>  
> (Sorry if this has been mentioned. Trying to catch up and dash off again).
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 2 August 2013, 2:26
> Subject: Re: Fish garths - Help!
>
>  
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "christineholmes651@" <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello re Fishgarths see
> > Richard Duke of Gloucester's letter to York re Fishgarths.15th November 1477.
> > Vol 1 York House Books page 130
> > Mentions his " home coming "
>
> Carol responds:
>
> How funny. I just ran across that very letter yesterday in Dockray's "Sourcebook" (hate his interpretations and his inclusion of the chroniclers, including Vergil, with the primary sources, but there's some good stuff mixed in).
>
> Here's Dockray's abbreviated version, which I was planning to type, anyway:
>
> "Richard of Gloucester to the City of York, 15 November 1477
>
> "[According] to your desires [regarding] Goldale garth or any others, we have moved the king's grace on the matter and [he] has commanded us at our next meeting to take a view and oversight of such garths and weirs, and [if they] have not been allowed before justices of eyre, see that they be pulled down; the which or any other thing we may do for the welfare of your city, we shall put us in our utmost devoir and good will . . . . {p. 36, editorial interpolations and ellipses Dockray's)
>
> Nothing about a homecoming in Dockray's version but probably enough about fish garths and weirs (hopefully not named Alison) to be of some use. A snippet from the letter about a gift of six pike and six swans is on the same page. His source is the York Civic Records (I *think* the fish garth letter comes from page 24, but his citation system is eccentric.)
>
> I seem to recall Kendall devoting at least a page to the subject--fish garths, I mean, not presents of food.
>
> Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.
>
> Carol