Matching gowns

The Croyland Chronicler wrote disapprovingly about the
vain changes of apparel that Queen Anne and Elizabeth
of York made during the Christmas 1483 celebrations.
If I remember correctly, this criticism was distorted
into the claim that Anne and Elizabeth wore matching
gowns, which was taken to mean that Richard was
planning to replace Anne with Elizabeth.

When I read the following quote in "The King's
Mother," by Michael K. Jones and Malcolm G. Underwood,
I remembered this criticism.

I think the matching gowns at the Tudor events might
change the interpretation of the matching gowns at
Richard III's Christmas celebration. If Anne and
Elizabeth actually did wear matching gowns, why should
it have meant anything more (or less?) sinister than
Margaret and Elizabeth wearing matching gowns?

Or is it possible that Anne and Elizabeth didn't wear
matching gowns at all? Is it possible that the
Croyland Chronicler's criticism was re-interpreted in
Tudor terms?

Here's the quote from "The King's Mother (p. 69):"

"In the Christmas celebrations of 1487 she [Margaret]
was observed wearing 'like mantell and surcott as the
quene, with a rich corrownall on her hede.' Again at
the garter ceremony of 1488, she wore identical
costume as the queen: robes of sanguine cloth furred
with minever and woven with garter letters of gold.
[Footnote 8: J. Leland, De Rebus Brittanicis
Collectanea, ed. T. Hearne. 6 vol. (London, 1774) III,
236; IV 238, 254)

Marion

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--- In , marion davis
<phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> The Croyland Chronicler wrote disapprovingly about the
> vain changes of apparel that Queen Anne and Elizabeth
> of York made during the Christmas 1483 celebrations.
> If I remember correctly, this criticism was distorted
> into the claim that Anne and Elizabeth wore matching
> gowns, which was taken to mean that Richard was
> planning to replace Anne with Elizabeth.
>
> When I read the following quote in "The King's
> Mother," by Michael K. Jones and Malcolm G. Underwood,
> I remembered this criticism.
>
> I think the matching gowns at the Tudor events might
> change the interpretation of the matching gowns at
> Richard III's Christmas celebration. If Anne and
> Elizabeth actually did wear matching gowns, why should
> it have meant anything more (or less?) sinister than
> Margaret and Elizabeth wearing matching gowns?
>
> Or is it possible that Anne and Elizabeth didn't wear
> matching gowns at all? Is it possible that the
> Croyland Chronicler's criticism was re-interpreted in
> Tudor terms?
>
> Here's the quote from "The King's Mother (p. 69):"
>
> "In the Christmas celebrations of 1487 she [Margaret]
> was observed wearing 'like mantell and surcott as the
> quene, with a rich corrownall on her hede.' Again at
> the garter ceremony of 1488, she wore identical
> costume as the queen: robes of sanguine cloth furred
> with minever and woven with garter letters of gold.
> [Footnote 8: J. Leland, De Rebus Brittanicis
> Collectanea, ed. T. Hearne. 6 vol. (London, 1774) III,
> 236; IV 238, 254)
>
> Marion

I think Margaret Beaufort's wearing of the same apparel as the Queen
had to have a message. She seems to be saying she regards herself as
being of like status - perhaps a reminder that her son's claim came
through her, perhaps even a hint that she was really the rightful
queen (the way she kept Elizabeth of York down would certainly seem
to suggest that). I wonder if that incredibly expensive crimson gown
Cecily Neville had made before meeting Margaret of Anjou was also a
statement of that sort.

What Croyland was actually saying seems to rest on translation. One
translation has it that the gowns were of like shape and colour,
another that the Queen and Elizabeth exchanged gowns because they
themselves were of like shape and complexion. Either way, there still
seem to be implications regarding status in an age obsessed with
sumptuary laws. However, unless Croyland was saying that Richard gave
away the Queen's gowns to his niece against her wishes, it is hard to
see what could have been sinister about it.
Is it possible that Anne (who died in March) had already lost weight
since her Christmas gown was first made for her, and passed same on
to her admittedly beautiful niece, having a new one made for herself
(perhaps with some additional finery)?

Marie

>
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> >
> > I think the matching gowns at the Tudor events might
> > change the interpretation of the matching gowns at
> > Richard III's Christmas celebration. If Anne and
> > Elizabeth actually did wear matching gowns, why should
> > it have meant anything more (or less?) sinister than
> > Margaret and Elizabeth wearing matching gowns?
> >
> > Or is it possible that Anne and Elizabeth didn't wear
> > matching gowns at all? Is it possible that the
> > Croyland Chronicler's criticism was re-interpreted in
> > Tudor terms?

Am I right in thinking that at Tudor feasts it was common for the
Queen's ladies to be dressed similarly to her? Perhaps the same
fabric but less ornately decorated?
> >
> > Here's the quote from "The King's Mother (p. 69):"
> >
> > "In the Christmas celebrations of 1487 she [Margaret]
> > was observed wearing 'like mantell and surcott as the
> > quene, with a rich corrownall on her hede.' Again at
> > the garter ceremony of 1488, she wore identical
> > costume as the queen: robes of sanguine cloth furred
> > with minever and woven with garter letters of gold.
> > [Footnote 8: J. Leland, De Rebus Brittanicis
> > Collectanea, ed. T. Hearne. 6 vol. (London, 1774) III,
> > 236; IV 238, 254)
> >
> > Marion
>
> I think Margaret Beaufort's wearing of the same apparel as the
Queen
> had to have a message. She seems to be saying she regards herself
as
> being of like status - perhaps a reminder that her son's claim
came
> through her, perhaps even a hint that she was really the rightful
> queen (the way she kept Elizabeth of York down would certainly
seem
> to suggest that). I wonder if that incredibly expensive crimson
gown
> Cecily Neville had made before meeting Margaret of Anjou was also
a
> statement of that sort.

Margaret Beaufort signed many documents "Margaret R" from the 1490s
on and had virtually viceregal powers in the Midlands, so I think
that's very likely, don't you, that she is making such a statement?
Somehow, despite her vaunted piety, she comes across as the sort of
arogant woman who would think of herself as royal, though I can't
pinpoint why I feel that way.
>
> What Croyland was actually saying seems to rest on translation.
One
> translation has it that the gowns were of like shape and colour,
> another that the Queen and Elizabeth exchanged gowns because they
> themselves were of like shape and complexion. Either way, there
still
> seem to be implications regarding status in an age obsessed with
> sumptuary laws. However, unless Croyland was saying that Richard
gave
> away the Queen's gowns to his niece against her wishes, it is hard
to
> see what could have been sinister about it.
> Is it possible that Anne (who died in March) had already lost
weight
> since her Christmas gown was first made for her, and passed same
on
> to her admittedly beautiful niece, having a new one made for
herself
> (perhaps with some additional finery)?
>
> Marie

That seems very feasible, and it was the kind of gesture one might
expect of a lady of Anne's kindness. I have always considered this
bit to be very dodgy reasoning on Croyland's part. I am sure many of
us girls at some point have shared an outfit with a close friend or
sister, or bought the same/similar items to wear together and I
don't think it invariably has to have any hidden message beyond a
statement of togetherness. I don't think that would be the case with
Margaret wearing the same as Elizabeth, mind, I think that's a
deliberate slap in the face, after all Elizabeth was well and truly
shut out of affairs while her mother in law usurped her role in this
respect.
Outside the period, Brunhild was sent a Byzantine crown and some
Lombard treasures that she would almost certainly have worn to
demonstrate her alliances. There is nothing new about one-upmanship
in attire. So since both interpretations seem feasible I think one
has to consider the personalities to decide which fits which woman.
And I just don't see sinister in Anne and Elizabeth's dresses that
Christmas.
B
>
> >
> > __________________________________

from the desk of Paul Trevor Bale

Very well spotted Marion. I have always thought it was Croyland aiming barbs
at Richard's financial profligacy rather than anything else, possibly later
misinterpreted by Tudor chroniclers on purpose.

> The Croyland Chronicler wrote disapprovingly about the
> vain changes of apparel that Queen Anne and Elizabeth
> of York made during the Christmas 1483 celebrations.
> If I remember correctly, this criticism was distorted
> into the claim that Anne and Elizabeth wore matching
> gowns, which was taken to mean that Richard was
> planning to replace Anne with Elizabeth.
>
> When I read the following quote in "The King's
> Mother," by Michael K. Jones and Malcolm G. Underwood,
> I remembered this criticism.
>
> I think the matching gowns at the Tudor events might
> change the interpretation of the matching gowns at
> Richard III's Christmas celebration. If Anne and
> Elizabeth actually did wear matching gowns, why should
> it have meant anything more (or less?) sinister than
> Margaret and Elizabeth wearing matching gowns?
>
> Or is it possible that Anne and Elizabeth didn't wear
> matching gowns at all? Is it possible that the
> Croyland Chronicler's criticism was re-interpreted in
> Tudor terms?
>
> Here's the quote from "The King's Mother (p. 69):"
>
> "In the Christmas celebrations of 1487 she [Margaret]
> was observed wearing 'like mantell and surcott as the
> quene, with a rich corrownall on her hede.' Again at
> the garter ceremony of 1488, she wore identical
> costume as the queen: robes of sanguine cloth furred
> with minever and woven with garter letters of gold.
> [Footnote 8: J. Leland, De Rebus Brittanicis
> Collectanea, ed. T. Hearne. 6 vol. (London, 1774) III,
> 236; IV 238, 254)
>
> Marion
>
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