Consanguinity File

For anyone who's tried looking at this and found blank boxes, I've just noticed them. Don't know what happened there, but I've filled them in again and reloaded the file.
Marie

That looks nailed-on to me, unless Butler was a problem. (Jorge) Castelli is very good at what he does, even if he doesn't like Richard much.
----- Original Message -----
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 9:13 PM
Subject: Consanguinity File



For anyone who's tried looking at this and found blank boxes, I've just noticed them. Don't know what happened there, but I've filled them in again and reloaded the file.
Marie

See below a the contents of the database I mention. It identifies 80 potential lines of consanguinity. It may indeed be wrong. But, since the database is in the public domain I see no problems in adding it to you files...

There are two versions of the data - admittedly this is the less reliable -
David

Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is a son of a 3rd cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Eleanor Plantagenêt (1 relationship link: click here).
Richard Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 4th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 5th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 4th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March (1 relationship link: click here).
Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 5th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 7th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 5th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
John Giffard, baron Giffard of Brimsfield (1 relationship link: click here).
Maud Clifford (1 relationship link: click here).
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March (1 relationship link: click here).
Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville (1 relationship link: click here).
Elizabeth de Clare (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 6th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 7th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly (1 relationship link: click here).
Juliana de Cogan (1 relationship link: click here).
Henry de Audley (2 relationship links: click here).
Bertrade de Mainwaring (2 relationship links: click here).
Nicholas, lord Segrave (1 relationship link: click here).
Maud de Lucy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 8th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
Hugh de Balliol, Lord of Biwell (1 relationship link: click here).
Cecily de Fontaines (1 relationship link: click here).
Robert de Tregoz (1 relationship link: click here).
Juliane de Cantelupe (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 9th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 7th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (1 relationship link: click here).
Idonea de Camville (1 relationship link: click here).
Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (2 relationship links: click here).
Ellen of Galloway (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 8th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly (1 relationship link: click here).
Juliana de Cogan (1 relationship link: click here).
Henry de Audley (2 relationship links: click here).
Bertrade de Mainwaring (2 relationship links: click here).
Raoul de Toëny (1 relationship link: click here).
Pernel de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 8th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
William Ferrers, Earl of Derby (2 relationship links: click here).
Agnes de Meschines (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 9th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a great-grandson of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 11th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 8th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (2 relationship links: click here).
Ellen of Galloway (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 9th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Isabel de Briwere (1 relationship link: click here).
William I the Lion, king of Scotland (1 relationship link: click here).
Isabel Avenal (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 10th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 9th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Hugh Pantolfe (2 relationship links: click here).
Christina FitzAlan (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 10th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 11th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Ludwig, Graf von Looz (2 relationship links: click here).
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 12th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 11th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Ludwig, Graf von Looz (2 relationship links: click here).
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 13th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 11th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Ludwig, Graf von Looz (1 relationship link: click here).
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 12th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 14th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 12th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Ludwig, Graf von Looz (1 relationship link: click here).
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 13th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 14th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 12th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume (2 relationship links: click here).
Agnès de Soissons (2 relationship links: click here).
Roger, seigneur de Bully (2 relationship links: click here).
Muriel Chapell (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 14th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 13th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 12th cousin of a grandparent of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Roger, seigneur de Bully (1 relationship link: click here).
Muriel Chapell (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 15th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 13th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 13th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume (1 relationship link: click here).
Agnès de Soissons (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 14th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 15th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Total: 80 relationship links

Giles de Lacy: 3 relationship links
Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht: 3 relationship links
Roger, seigneur de Bully: 3 relationship links
Muriel Chapell: 3 relationship links
Ellen of Galloway: 4 relationship links
Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly: 2 relationship links
Juliana de Cogan: 2 relationship links
Agnès de Soissons: 3 relationship links
Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume: 3 relationship links
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March: 2 relationship links
Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville: 2 relationship links
Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester: 4 relationship links
Bertrade de Mainwaring: 4 relationship links
Henry de Audley: 4 relationship links
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy: 6 relationship links
Ludwig, Graf von Looz: 6 relationship links
...
Relationship: 0.78%

Hi David,
On what grounds does this source claim that EIV and Eleanor were third cousins? It doesn't seem possible for us to follow the reasoning without being able to click the links. Can you link us to the database itself, or at least set out for us the alleged genealogy?
Marie

--- In , Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
>
> See below a the contents of the database I mention. It identifies 80 potential lines of consanguinity. It may indeed be wrong. But, since the database is in the public domain I see no problems in adding it to you files...
>
> There are two versions of the data - admittedly this is the less reliable -
> David
>
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is a son of a 3rd cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Eleanor Plantagenêt (1 relationship link: click here).
> Richard Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 4th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 5th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 4th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Roger Mortimer, Earl of March (1 relationship link: click here).
> Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 5th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 7th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 5th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> John Giffard, baron Giffard of Brimsfield (1 relationship link: click here).
> Maud Clifford (1 relationship link: click here).
> Roger Mortimer, Earl of March (1 relationship link: click here).
> Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville (1 relationship link: click here).
> Elizabeth de Clare (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 6th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 7th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly (1 relationship link: click here).
> Juliana de Cogan (1 relationship link: click here).
> Henry de Audley (2 relationship links: click here).
> Bertrade de Mainwaring (2 relationship links: click here).
> Nicholas, lord Segrave (1 relationship link: click here).
> Maud de Lucy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
> Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
> Hugh de Balliol, Lord of Biwell (1 relationship link: click here).
> Cecily de Fontaines (1 relationship link: click here).
> Robert de Tregoz (1 relationship link: click here).
> Juliane de Cantelupe (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 7th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (1 relationship link: click here).
> Idonea de Camville (1 relationship link: click here).
> Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (2 relationship links: click here).
> Ellen of Galloway (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
> Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
> Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly (1 relationship link: click here).
> Juliana de Cogan (1 relationship link: click here).
> Henry de Audley (2 relationship links: click here).
> Bertrade de Mainwaring (2 relationship links: click here).
> Raoul de Toëny (1 relationship link: click here).
> Pernel de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 8th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> William Ferrers, Earl of Derby (2 relationship links: click here).
> Agnes de Meschines (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a great-grandson of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
> Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 11th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 8th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (2 relationship links: click here).
> Ellen of Galloway (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 9th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Isabel de Briwere (1 relationship link: click here).
> William I the Lion, king of Scotland (1 relationship link: click here).
> Isabel Avenal (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 9th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Hugh Pantolfe (2 relationship links: click here).
> Christina FitzAlan (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 11th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz (2 relationship links: click here).
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 11th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz (2 relationship links: click here).
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 13th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 11th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz (1 relationship link: click here).
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 14th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 12th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz (1 relationship link: click here).
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 13th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 14th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 12th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume (2 relationship links: click here).
> Agnès de Soissons (2 relationship links: click here).
> Roger, seigneur de Bully (2 relationship links: click here).
> Muriel Chapell (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 14th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 13th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 12th cousin of a grandparent of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Roger, seigneur de Bully (1 relationship link: click here).
> Muriel Chapell (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 15th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 13th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 13th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume (1 relationship link: click here).
> Agnès de Soissons (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 14th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 15th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Total: 80 relationship links
>
> Giles de Lacy: 3 relationship links
> Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht: 3 relationship links
> Roger, seigneur de Bully: 3 relationship links
> Muriel Chapell: 3 relationship links
> Ellen of Galloway: 4 relationship links
> Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly: 2 relationship links
> Juliana de Cogan: 2 relationship links
> Agnès de Soissons: 3 relationship links
> Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume: 3 relationship links
> Roger Mortimer, Earl of March: 2 relationship links
> Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville: 2 relationship links
> Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester: 4 relationship links
> Bertrade de Mainwaring: 4 relationship links
> Henry de Audley: 4 relationship links
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy: 6 relationship links
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz: 6 relationship links
> ...
> Relationship: 0.78%
>
>
>

Only one of these lines would create the need for a dispensation and it is contradicted by Marie's sources. As suggested, Lady Eleanor is probably being attributed to the wrong mother here. Lord Hastings is often attributed to his stepmother, an Edward III descendant, by mistake.
----- Original Message -----
From: Durose David
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Consanguinity File



See below a the contents of the database I mention. It identifies 80 potential lines of consanguinity. It may indeed be wrong. But, since the database is in the public domain I see no problems in adding it to you files...

There are two versions of the data - admittedly this is the less reliable -
David

Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is a son of a 3rd cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Eleanor Plantagenêt (1 relationship link: click here).
Richard Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 4th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 5th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 4th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March (1 relationship link: click here).
Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 5th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 7th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 5th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
John Giffard, baron Giffard of Brimsfield (1 relationship link: click here).
Maud Clifford (1 relationship link: click here).
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March (1 relationship link: click here).
Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville (1 relationship link: click here).
Elizabeth de Clare (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 6th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 7th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly (1 relationship link: click here).
Juliana de Cogan (1 relationship link: click here).
Henry de Audley (2 relationship links: click here).
Bertrade de Mainwaring (2 relationship links: click here).
Nicholas, lord Segrave (1 relationship link: click here).
Maud de Lucy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 8th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
Hugh de Balliol, Lord of Biwell (1 relationship link: click here).
Cecily de Fontaines (1 relationship link: click here).
Robert de Tregoz (1 relationship link: click here).
Juliane de Cantelupe (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 9th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 7th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (1 relationship link: click here).
Idonea de Camville (1 relationship link: click here).
Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (2 relationship links: click here).
Ellen of Galloway (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 8th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly (1 relationship link: click here).
Juliana de Cogan (1 relationship link: click here).
Henry de Audley (2 relationship links: click here).
Bertrade de Mainwaring (2 relationship links: click here).
Raoul de Toëny (1 relationship link: click here).
Pernel de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 8th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
William Ferrers, Earl of Derby (2 relationship links: click here).
Agnes de Meschines (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 9th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a great-grandson of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 11th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 8th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (2 relationship links: click here).
Ellen of Galloway (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 9th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Isabel de Briwere (1 relationship link: click here).
William I the Lion, king of Scotland (1 relationship link: click here).
Isabel Avenal (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 10th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 9th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Hugh Pantolfe (2 relationship links: click here).
Christina FitzAlan (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 10th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 11th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Ludwig, Graf von Looz (2 relationship links: click here).
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 12th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 11th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Ludwig, Graf von Looz (2 relationship links: click here).
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 13th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 11th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Ludwig, Graf von Looz (1 relationship link: click here).
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 12th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 14th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 12th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Ludwig, Graf von Looz (1 relationship link: click here).
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 13th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 14th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 12th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume (2 relationship links: click here).
Agnès de Soissons (2 relationship links: click here).
Roger, seigneur de Bully (2 relationship links: click here).
Muriel Chapell (2 relationship links: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 14th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 13th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 12th cousin of a grandparent of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Roger, seigneur de Bully (1 relationship link: click here).
Muriel Chapell (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 15th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 13th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 13th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.

Indeed,
Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume (1 relationship link: click here).
Agnès de Soissons (1 relationship link: click here).
are at the same time
ancestors of the 14th generation of Eleanor Talbot
ancestors of the 15th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
Total: 80 relationship links

Giles de Lacy: 3 relationship links
Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht: 3 relationship links
Roger, seigneur de Bully: 3 relationship links
Muriel Chapell: 3 relationship links
Ellen of Galloway: 4 relationship links
Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly: 2 relationship links
Juliana de Cogan: 2 relationship links
Agnès de Soissons: 3 relationship links
Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume: 3 relationship links
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March: 2 relationship links
Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville: 2 relationship links
Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester: 4 relationship links
Bertrade de Mainwaring: 4 relationship links
Henry de Audley: 4 relationship links
Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy: 6 relationship links
Ludwig, Graf von Looz: 6 relationship links
...
Relationship: 0.78%

I suspect the error in the Breton database, David, may be that Eleanor's father, the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, has been wrongly assumed to be the son of Maude Neville? Although she was Lord Talbot's second wife, she is stated on website after website (including Castelli) to be his first (the real first wife, Ankaret le Strange, being passed over completely). In fact, Lord Talbot's marriage to Maude Neville took place far too late for her to have been Shrewsbury's mother, and indeed she seems to have been younger than he was!
I encountered a similar problem when looking at Sir Thomas Butler's antecedents last night. His father Lord Sudeley marred twice, and attributing Thomas to the second, more exalted, marriage would have given the impression of a 2nd & 3rd degree relationship to Edward IV, which would have been an impediment to Eleanor's marriage to Edward. So I had to check the ladies' dates very carefully; as a result I confirmed that Thomas was quite certainly a child of Lord Sudeley's first marriage, to a widowed London merchant's daughter with Cheshire ancestry. No real chance of a link with Edward IV's ancestors there.
Marie

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Only one of these lines would create the need for a dispensation and it is contradicted by Marie's sources. As suggested, Lady Eleanor is probably being attributed to the wrong mother here. Lord Hastings is often attributed to his stepmother, an Edward III descendant, by mistake.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Durose David
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 12:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Consanguinity File
>
>
>
> See below a the contents of the database I mention. It identifies 80 potential lines of consanguinity. It may indeed be wrong. But, since the database is in the public domain I see no problems in adding it to you files...
>
> There are two versions of the data - admittedly this is the less reliable -
> David
>
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is a son of a 3rd cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Eleanor Plantagenêt (1 relationship link: click here).
> Richard Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 4th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 5th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 4th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Roger Mortimer, Earl of March (1 relationship link: click here).
> Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 5th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 7th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 5th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> John Giffard, baron Giffard of Brimsfield (1 relationship link: click here).
> Maud Clifford (1 relationship link: click here).
> Roger Mortimer, Earl of March (1 relationship link: click here).
> Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville (1 relationship link: click here).
> Elizabeth de Clare (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 6th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 7th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly (1 relationship link: click here).
> Juliana de Cogan (1 relationship link: click here).
> Henry de Audley (2 relationship links: click here).
> Bertrade de Mainwaring (2 relationship links: click here).
> Nicholas, lord Segrave (1 relationship link: click here).
> Maud de Lucy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
> Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
> Hugh de Balliol, Lord of Biwell (1 relationship link: click here).
> Cecily de Fontaines (1 relationship link: click here).
> Robert de Tregoz (1 relationship link: click here).
> Juliane de Cantelupe (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 7th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (1 relationship link: click here).
> Idonea de Camville (1 relationship link: click here).
> Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (2 relationship links: click here).
> Ellen of Galloway (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
> Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
> Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly (1 relationship link: click here).
> Juliana de Cogan (1 relationship link: click here).
> Henry de Audley (2 relationship links: click here).
> Bertrade de Mainwaring (2 relationship links: click here).
> Raoul de Toëny (1 relationship link: click here).
> Pernel de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 8th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> William Ferrers, Earl of Derby (2 relationship links: click here).
> Agnes de Meschines (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a great-grandson of a 7th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht (1 relationship link: click here).
> Giles de Lacy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 8th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 11th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 8th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (2 relationship links: click here).
> Ellen of Galloway (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 9th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 9th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Isabel de Briwere (1 relationship link: click here).
> William I the Lion, king of Scotland (1 relationship link: click here).
> Isabel Avenal (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 9th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Hugh Pantolfe (2 relationship links: click here).
> Christina FitzAlan (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 10th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 11th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz (2 relationship links: click here).
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 11th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz (2 relationship links: click here).
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 13th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a grandson of a 11th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz (1 relationship link: click here).
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 12th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 14th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 12th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz (1 relationship link: click here).
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 13th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 14th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 12th cousin of a parent of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume (2 relationship links: click here).
> Agnès de Soissons (2 relationship links: click here).
> Roger, seigneur de Bully (2 relationship links: click here).
> Muriel Chapell (2 relationship links: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 14th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 13th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a 12th cousin of a grandparent of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Roger, seigneur de Bully (1 relationship link: click here).
> Muriel Chapell (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 15th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 13th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England is also a son of a 13th cousin of Eleanor Talbot.
>
> Indeed,
> Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume (1 relationship link: click here).
> Agnès de Soissons (1 relationship link: click here).
> are at the same time
> ancestors of the 14th generation of Eleanor Talbot
> ancestors of the 15th generation of Edward IV of Rouen Plantagenêt, King of England
> Total: 80 relationship links
>
> Giles de Lacy: 3 relationship links
> Richard The Great de Burgh, Lord of Connacht: 3 relationship links
> Roger, seigneur de Bully: 3 relationship links
> Muriel Chapell: 3 relationship links
> Ellen of Galloway: 4 relationship links
> Maurice The Friar FitzGerald, baron of Offaly: 2 relationship links
> Juliana de Cogan: 2 relationship links
> Agnès de Soissons: 3 relationship links
> Hervé de Montmorency, prince du royaume: 3 relationship links
> Roger Mortimer, Earl of March: 2 relationship links
> Jeanne de Joinville, Baroness of Geneville: 2 relationship links
> Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester: 4 relationship links
> Bertrade de Mainwaring: 4 relationship links
> Henry de Audley: 4 relationship links
> Agnès de Metz, dame de Longwy: 6 relationship links
> Ludwig, Graf von Looz: 6 relationship links
> ...
> Relationship: 0.78%
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

The database is called Roglo and can be easily found using Google. There is a very reliable version of it that uses the same software, but it has much fewer English entries on it.

You can select the language of the screens, but of course the language of the data remains in French.

It allows you to expand family trees upwards and downwards and carry out relationship computing.

Some of the names may be confusing, I think they call Edward "of Rouen" and Richard of Fotheringhay.

Happy exploring

David

Thanks for the information, David.
I've checked the Roglo website and the difference is that it gives Eleanor of Lancaster as the mother of Mary FitzAlan (on Eleanor's tree), not Isabel Despencer as I have on mine. This would be significant because Eleanor, the 4th earl of Arundel's second wife, appears to have been the mother of Alice FitzAlan on Edward IV's tree, so that would create an impediment of affinity in the 4th and 5th degrees.
But I'm not convinced. I took Isabel Despencer from John Ashdown-Hills table in 'The Secret Queen', and I have now looked into the problem a little deeper. The story given (see eg Wikipedia) is that Arundel got an annulment of his marriage to Isabel Despenser in order to marry Eleanor, with whom he had been living for some time, rather suggesting they had been popping out offspring for years. Now, looking at the papal registers I see there was indeed a divorce but nothing in the record to suggest that Richard and Eleanor had been an item for years or had children born before their marriage who would need to be legitimated (it didn't happen automatically). As late as July 1444 Arundel and his wife *Isabel* got a papal indult to choose a confessor. It must have been after this that Arundel put Isabel aside, and with the aid of the Bishop of Chichester got a papal annulment of the marriage. Arundel married Eleanor in front of Edward III himself two weeks before the start of Lent in 1345. Two years later Arundel's son Edmund, now 20, appealed against his bastardisation and the annulment of his parents' marriage, which he claimed had been got by the Bishop "by surreptitious means." The Pope ordered a cardinal to hold an enquiry, of which the results aren't in the Papal Registers, but evidently the marriage to Eleanor endured. It is possible, however, that Isabel's children were re-legitimated.

It seems to be assumed by most genealogists that all Arundel's other children were the offspring of Eleanor of Lancaster. But the date of Mary FitzAlan's marriage to Lord Strange (before 1354 - and he was born in the early 1330s) suggests to me that John A-H is probably correct and Mary is far more likely to have been Isabel Despencer's daughter.
Tangled webs and all that.
But if anyone would like I can email John A-H and ask him about it.
Marie

--- In , Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
>
> The database is called Roglo and can be easily found using Google. There is a very reliable version of it that uses the same software, but it has much fewer English entries on it.
>
> You can select the language of the screens, but of course the language of the data remains in French.
>
> It allows you to expand family trees upwards and downwards and carry out relationship computing.
>
> Some of the names may be confusing, I think they call Edward "of Rouen" and Richard of Fotheringhay.
>
> Happy exploring
>
> David
>
>
>

Breaking news. I can hear you all groaning, but this is important. Apparently Douglas Richardson (of Plantagenet Ancestry) and the Complete Peerage are now convinced, having found new evidence, that Mary FitzAlan was the sister, not the daughter, of Richard FitzAlan Earl of Arundel (I'm done with quoting the earls' numbers because they're different in every source). This would make her parents Edmund FitzAlan Earl of Arundel and Alesia Saluzzo. It makes sense of both her age and the fact that only the son Edmund is mentioned in the papal documents relating to Earl Richard's divorce.
But again no consanguinity. I'll amend the file and reload, together with what I have on Sir Thomas Butler.
Marie

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the information, David.
> I've checked the Roglo website and the difference is that it gives Eleanor of Lancaster as the mother of Mary FitzAlan (on Eleanor's tree), not Isabel Despencer as I have on mine. This would be significant because Eleanor, the 4th earl of Arundel's second wife, appears to have been the mother of Alice FitzAlan on Edward IV's tree, so that would create an impediment of affinity in the 4th and 5th degrees.
> But I'm not convinced. I took Isabel Despencer from John Ashdown-Hills table in 'The Secret Queen', and I have now looked into the problem a little deeper. The story given (see eg Wikipedia) is that Arundel got an annulment of his marriage to Isabel Despenser in order to marry Eleanor, with whom he had been living for some time, rather suggesting they had been popping out offspring for years. Now, looking at the papal registers I see there was indeed a divorce but nothing in the record to suggest that Richard and Eleanor had been an item for years or had children born before their marriage who would need to be legitimated (it didn't happen automatically). As late as July 1444 Arundel and his wife *Isabel* got a papal indult to choose a confessor. It must have been after this that Arundel put Isabel aside, and with the aid of the Bishop of Chichester got a papal annulment of the marriage. Arundel married Eleanor in front of Edward III himself two weeks before the start of Lent in 1345. Two years later Arundel's son Edmund, now 20, appealed against his bastardisation and the annulment of his parents' marriage, which he claimed had been got by the Bishop "by surreptitious means." The Pope ordered a cardinal to hold an enquiry, of which the results aren't in the Papal Registers, but evidently the marriage to Eleanor endured. It is possible, however, that Isabel's children were re-legitimated.
>
> It seems to be assumed by most genealogists that all Arundel's other children were the offspring of Eleanor of Lancaster. But the date of Mary FitzAlan's marriage to Lord Strange (before 1354 - and he was born in the early 1330s) suggests to me that John A-H is probably correct and Mary is far more likely to have been Isabel Despencer's daughter.
> Tangled webs and all that.
> But if anyone would like I can email John A-H and ask him about it.
> Marie
>
> --- In , Durose David <daviddurose2000@> wrote:
> >
> > The database is called Roglo and can be easily found using Google. There is a very reliable version of it that uses the same software, but it has much fewer English entries on it.
> >
> > You can select the language of the screens, but of course the language of the data remains in French.
> >
> > It allows you to expand family trees upwards and downwards and carry out relationship computing.
> >
> > Some of the names may be confusing, I think they call Edward "of Rouen" and Richard of Fotheringhay.
> >
> > Happy exploring
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Breaking news. I can hear you all groaning, but this is important. Apparently Douglas Richardson (of Plantagenet Ancestry) and the Complete Peerage are now convinced, having found new evidence, that Mary FitzAlan was the sister, not the daughter, of Richard FitzAlan Earl of Arundel (I'm done with quoting the earls' numbers because they're different in every source). This would make her parents Edmund FitzAlan Earl of Arundel and Alesia Saluzzo. It makes sense of both her age and the fact that only the son Edmund is mentioned in the papal documents relating to Earl Richard's divorce.
>

Firstly, I must thank you, Marie, for explaining the whole affinity thing to me in such detail earlier - I swear that for the first time, it actually makes sense to me, and I think I 'get' it now. I used to think the rules were so horribly illogical that I simply refused to understand them properly, but I no longer feel that way. Though it's comforting to know that real historians have had a hard time understanding the concept, as well! Many thanks for such a wonderfully clear and patient explanation.

Secondly: no groaning from me! I find this whole thing fascinating, though confusing. I wish these historical personages had official ID numbers attached to their names. Dog pedigrees are so much easier to follow ;)

A couple of thoughts re: the FitzAlans:

(1) Wasn't Alesia di Saluzzo Edmund the 3rd/9th Earl's mother, and Alice de Warenne Edmund's wife?

(2) If Mary FitzAlan was Edmund's daughter, she would have to have been born in the 1320s at the latest, and thus she would have been in her 40s when she gave birth to Ankaret Lestrange. How likely is this? (Not impossible, of course.)

(3) Could there be some confusion in the records because Edmund also had another daughter, Aline (?), who was married to *another* Baron Strange/Lestrange? Could the annulment shenanigans with Isabel Despenser have caused some further confusion? And what's the thing about Mary's name being mistaken for Isabel? Could there be two Mary/Isabel FitzAlans - one of them Edmund's daughter, and the other one Richard's? (sorry if this is a stupid question, I don't know if there's definite evidence that this can't be true)

*If* Mary FitzAlan were the 4th/10th Earl of Arundel's daughter (and I accept that this is probably unlikely), would there be a close enough relationship through Alianore Holland to cause an impediment?

I don't know if I'm counting wrong but if I understood correctly, you said the the common ancestor would have to be five generations up from the one party, and four generations up from the other. So what about:

Richard, 3rd/10th Earl of Arundel => Alice FitzAlan => Alianore de Holland => Anne Mortimer => Duke of York => Edward IV

Richard, 3rd/10th Earl of Arundel => Mary FitzAlan => Ankaret Lestrange => 1st Earl of Shrewsbury => Eleanor Talbot

Would that relationship be 'too' close? Again, I'm using online databases so hopefully the information is accurate.

Pansy

--- In , pansydobersby <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Breaking news. I can hear you all groaning, but this is important. Apparently Douglas Richardson (of Plantagenet Ancestry) and the Complete Peerage are now convinced, having found new evidence, that Mary FitzAlan was the sister, not the daughter, of Richard FitzAlan Earl of Arundel (I'm done with quoting the earls' numbers because they're different in every source). This would make her parents Edmund FitzAlan Earl of Arundel and Alesia Saluzzo. It makes sense of both her age and the fact that only the son Edmund is mentioned in the papal documents relating to Earl Richard's divorce.
> >
>
> Firstly, I must thank you, Marie, for explaining the whole affinity thing to me in such detail earlier - I swear that for the first time, it actually makes sense to me, and I think I 'get' it now. I used to think the rules were so horribly illogical that I simply refused to understand them properly, but I no longer feel that way. Though it's comforting to know that real historians have had a hard time understanding the concept, as well! Many thanks for such a wonderfully clear and patient explanation.
>
> Secondly: no groaning from me! I find this whole thing fascinating, though confusing. I wish these historical personages had official ID numbers attached to their names. Dog pedigrees are so much easier to follow ;)
>
> A couple of thoughts re: the FitzAlans:
>
> (1) Wasn't Alesia di Saluzzo Edmund the 3rd/9th Earl's mother, and Alice de Warenne Edmund's wife?


Marie replies:
Yes, you're absolutely right. I was rushing a bit, I'll admit - other things to get on with. I'll amend the file again!



>
> (2) If Mary FitzAlan was Edmund's daughter, she would have to have been born in the 1320s at the latest, and thus she would have been in her 40s when she gave birth to Ankaret Lestrange. How likely is this? (Not impossible, of course.)

Marie replies:
She could have been in her late thirties, but having last child in early forties is quite normal.
The evidence for her being Earl Edmund's daughter seems very strong. You will find it here:-
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml#p244b
(Hope the urls are working again.)


>
> (3) Could there be some confusion in the records because Edmund also had another daughter, Aline (?), who was married to *another* Baron Strange/Lestrange? Could the annulment shenanigans with Isabel Despenser have caused some further confusion? And what's the thing about Mary's name being mistaken for Isabel? Could there be two Mary/Isabel FitzAlans - one of them Edmund's daughter, and the other one Richard's? (sorry if this is a stupid question, I don't know if there's definite evidence that this can't be true)

Marie replies:
It could be down to confusion with her daughter-in-law.

>
> *If* Mary FitzAlan were the 4th/10th Earl of Arundel's daughter (and I accept that this is probably unlikely), would there be a close enough relationship through Alianore Holland to cause an impediment?
>
> I don't know if I'm counting wrong but if I understood correctly, you said the the common ancestor would have to be five generations up from the one party, and four generations up from the other. So what about:
>
> Richard, 3rd/10th Earl of Arundel => Alice FitzAlan => Alianore de Holland => Anne Mortimer => Duke of York => Edward IV
>
> Richard, 3rd/10th Earl of Arundel => Mary FitzAlan => Ankaret Lestrange => 1st Earl of Shrewsbury => Eleanor Talbot
>
> Would that relationship be 'too' close? Again, I'm using online databases so hopefully the information is accurate.

Marie replies:
Yes it would: I think I've acknowledged this in a previous post. But as you'll see from the proposed amendment to the Complete Peerage, she is named over and over again in contemporary documents as Earl Richard's sister. She can't have been Eleanor's daughter anyway - that would make her far too young to have had her son, John le Strange, and a premarital liaison won't account for it because until 1342 Eleanor was the wife of Lord Beaumont (so any children she had would be assumed to be his). The only two possibilities chronologically speaking are that she was Earl Edmund's daughter or that she was Earl Richard's daughter by Isabel Despenser. But the papal documents make no mention of any children between Earl Richard and Isabel Despenser except Edmund, and other documents name Mary as Earl Richard's sister. I think it's a done deal.
I'd just like to add that I didn't really expect to find impediments of consanguinity or affinity between Edward and Eleanor because that would surely have been the first thing Stillington and the Council's other canon law advisors would have checked for.
I imagine Edward's council also tried to extricate him from his marriage to EW by finding similar impediments, and failed.
Perhaps Edward made rash clandestine marriages with highborn widows because he assumed that, between their own ancestry and that of their late husband(s), there must surely be an impediment somewhere that could get him out of it afterwards!