Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Looks to be a sensible judgement in that it cites the events as being without precedent.  Important warning shot fired by Mr Justice Haddon-Cave, though, in asking all parties to "avoid embarking on the legal Wars of the Roses part 2".

I just hope this can be cleared up very soon (although I note that a date for the review has not been set) and that everyone will accept the outcome, whatever it may be, without complaint.

Jonathan




________________________________
From: "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 11:50
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review



 
Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=


From: christineholmes651@...
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To:
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review


Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

York is interested they just maintain their dignity. I for one in the minster have heard them say they will find a place for Richard should it be decided that he be bound for York Minster including a priest. All I have spoken to there are very interested in Richard. You are sadly mistaken if you think York does not want him Sandra. I will refrain from saying anything about Leicester.
Loyaulte me Lie

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To:
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I think it rather nice that he who so believed in justice should at last be receiving due consideration from it. He would have liked the common sense of Mr Justice Haddon-Cave.



________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:20
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Looks to be a sensible judgement in that it cites the events as being without precedent.  Important warning shot fired by Mr Justice Haddon-Cave, though, in asking all parties to "avoid embarking on the legal Wars of the Roses part 2".

I just hope this can be cleared up very soon (although I note that a date for the review has not been set) and that everyone will accept the outcome, whatever it may be, without complaint.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 11:50
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review


 
Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.



Liz

From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Well that's good but I would hope they have already decided where he would go "if" they got him, but are just not saying publicly 



Liz

From: "christineholmes651@..." <christineholmes651@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:32
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 


York is interested they just maintain their dignity. I for one in the minster have heard them say they will find a place for Richard should it be decided that he be bound for York Minster including a priest. All I have spoken to there are very interested in Richard. You are sadly mistaken if you think York does not want him Sandra. I will refrain from saying anything about Leicester.
Loyaulte me Lie

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I'm afraid I still perceive a lack of enthusiasm from York. Maintaining dignity' in this instance conveys a sense of hoping it will all go away, and find a place' sounds equally half-hearted. I want them to allot him a BIG place, with grace and grandeur, which he is clearly going to get at Leicester. I'm sorry, Christine, it's just how it comes across to me  at a distance, so to speak. You clearly have more contact with them and understand more, so please don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm just stating how it appears to me. =^..^=


From: christineholmes651@...
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:32 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



York is interested they just maintain their dignity. I for one in the minster have heard them say they will find a place for Richard should it be decided that he be bound for York Minster including a priest. All I have spoken to there are very interested in Richard. You are sadly mistaken if you think York does not want him Sandra. I will refrain from saying anything about Leicester.
Loyaulte me Lie

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

There would be a certain irony if York were to "win" (not a phrase I like to use as this shouldn't be a competition) and then offered something less impressive or less significant within the Minster for Richard than is being planned by Leicester.  But I suppose that's a risk the Plantagenet Alliance has undertaken.

Jonathan






________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 13:27
Subject: Re: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



 
I'm afraid I still perceive a lack of enthusiasm from York. Maintaining dignity' in this instance conveys a sense of hoping it will all go away, and find a place' sounds equally half-hearted. I want them to allot him a BIG place, with grace and grandeur, which he is clearly going to get at Leicester. I'm sorry, Christine, it's just how it comes across to me  at a distance, so to speak. You clearly have more contact with them and understand more, so please don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm just stating how it appears to me. =^..^=

From: christineholmes651@...
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:32 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


York is interested they just maintain their dignity. I for one in the minster have heard them say they will find a place for Richard should it be decided that he be bound for York Minster including a priest. All I have spoken to there are very interested in Richard. You are sadly mistaken if you think York does not want him Sandra. I will refrain from saying anything about Leicester.
Loyaulte me Lie

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> So...now what? York doesnât seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donât particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâs standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> I’m afraid I still perceive a lack of enthusiasm from York. ‘Maintaining dignity’ in this instance conveys a sense of hoping it will all go away, and ‘find a place’ sounds equally half-hearted. I want them to allot him a BIG place, with grace and grandeur, which he is clearly going to get at Leicester.
>
>


I get the feeling that Leicester are granting him a 'big' place only because there was such anger at their original half-hearted plans. I also get the feeling that the perceived lack of enthusiasm from York isn't so much lack of enthusiasm from *York* as it is a case of church politics.

Unfortunately, I do understand the idea of maintaining dignity, too. Nothing worse than doing a big campaign and then losing. Especially if there's very little chance of winning anyway. Everything is politics, these days. (Perhaps it always was. I don't know.)

Mind you, I had nothing against Leicester until that horrible, judgmental and all-round 'meh' tomb memo (or whatever it was) was released. Made me feel like they're treating it more as something to get out of the way than as an honour. After that, I crossed all my fingers and toes that Richard would end up in York Minster or somewhere else instead - however unlikely that is.

I can't help but feel a bit disappointed with the way this amazing discovery has been handled by the 'powers that be'. Most of the hoopla seems to have been the scientific community patting itself on the back for the *archaeological* significance of the find, and Leicester rejoicing about the tourist income. I feel like overall there's been precious little appreciation of the *historical* significance of it all. Of the amazing, unique, historic occasion it will be. What an opportunity to celebrate history! To be able to *live* it!!

I hope the enthusiasm will pick up closer to next spring. Why are they making it all about Leicester, anyway? We're talking about the history of England here. It's an opportunity for the whole country.

Pansy

I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 

Carole


________________________________
From: lizwilliams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



 
Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.

Liz

From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
 
Alison


________________________________
From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 

Carole

________________________________
From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


 
Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.

Liz

From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Hi Alison,
 No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.

Regards
Carole

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



 
Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
 
Alison


________________________________
From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 

Carole

________________________________
From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.

Liz

From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Butting in here, but that is so beautifully expressed, Carole. =^..^=

From: carole hughes
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:21 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


Hi Alison,
No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.

Regards
Carole

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



Do you reside in Leicester Carole?

Alison

________________________________
From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



I think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.

Carole

________________________________
From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.

Liz

From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

I think this may be one of the cases where there's a great deal going on behind the scenes. When a general is fighting a battle, it's often wise not to share one's plans ahead of time, but to keep them close and hidden from the enemy.

Leicester has already shown its hand. The Alliance and York haven't. I wouldn't underestimate either the Alliance or York at this point. Especially given Leicester's open hubris from the moment the bones were identified as being Richard's.

~Weds

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> I’m afraid I still perceive a lack of enthusiasm from York. ‘Maintaining dignity’ in this instance conveys a sense of hoping it will all go away, and ‘find a place’ sounds equally half-hearted. I want them to allot him a BIG place, with grace and grandeur, which he is clearly going to get at Leicester. I’m sorry, Christine, it’s just how it comes across to me â€" at a distance, so to speak. You clearly have more contact with them and understand more, so please don’t think I’m arguing with you, I’m just stating how it appears to me. =^..^=
>
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:32 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> York is interested they just maintain their dignity. I for one in the minster have heard them say they will find a place for Richard should it be decided that he be bound for York Minster including a priest. All I have spoken to there are very interested in Richard. You are sadly mistaken if you think York does not want him Sandra. I will refrain from saying anything about Leicester.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@> wrote:
> >
> > So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
> >
> >
> > From: christineholmes651@
> > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> > Loyaulte me Lie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sorry to disagree, but I was quite persuaded earlier this year by the
discussions in this group (I think) that we no longer leave our fallen
soldiers where they died (in Richard's case) a brutal death. And although
I recognize that we don't have any explicit evidence regarding his wishes
for his own burial. Since the proper disposition of mortal remains was
evidently important to Richard, I believe he probably did leave
instructions, which his successor did not honor, and that he had big plans
for York. To leave him in Leicester just seems like prolonging the
degradation visited on him after his death.

Sorry, I tried to stay out of this discussion because I realize many of us
have strong & disparate opinions on the subject. I will now try to hold my
tongue once again.

A J


On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:51 PM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Butting in here, but that is so beautifully expressed, Carole. =^..^=
>
> From: carole hughes
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:21 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hi Alison,
> No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which
> is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he
> should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when
> I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to
> the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard
> and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in
> the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York
> then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever
> expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting
> that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
> the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
>
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> I think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be
> decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already
> declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I
> will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if
> he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an
> appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> So...now what? York doesnýt seem interested, Leicester very much is, for
> whatever reason. I donýt particularly want to see this wide consultation
> deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do
> not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with
> his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkýs standpoint?
> Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our
> king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured.
> I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door
> quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial
> review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I agree. 


Liz


________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:51
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Butting in here, but that is so beautifully expressed, Carole. =^..^=

From: carole hughes
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:21 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

Hi Alison,
No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.

Regards
Carole

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

Do you reside in Leicester Carole?

Alison

________________________________
From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

I think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.

Carole

________________________________
From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.

Liz

From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Wednesday wrote: "I think this may be one of the cases where there's a great deal going on behind the scenes. When a general is fighting a battle, it's often wise not to share one's plans ahead of time, but to keep them close and hidden from the enemy."


But this isn't a battle. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. In fact, that was the most strongly emphasised part of the judgement.

It's also a mistake to view Leicester and York as two discrete entities in binary opposition, rather than simply two cities containing different people with a variety of views. I doubt Leicester Cathedral and York Minster see themselves as being in competition and I'm certain that would be the very last thing that the church authorities would want.

The worst thing about all this is that it makes Richard a divisive figure all over again, with Radio 4 this evening using a excerpt from the Olivier film to lead into the news report. Well done, the Plantagenet Alliance, for that.

Jonathan

Richard has always been a divisive figure. As soon as his bones were found some extraordinarily polarised and one-sided views were published by people who ought to know better - e.g look at Sean Lang in History Today for some extremely emotional responses from a "traditionalist". I don't think you can blame the Plantagenet Alliance for that.

It's a shame that radio 4 gave airspace only to Peter Soulsby, at least as far as I heard, who made a number of erroneous or irrelevant points that ranged from the claim that Richard "had lain in the shadow of leicester Cathedral for 500 years" to declaring that if all relatives were to be consulted what would be necessary was along the lines of an opinion poll (which is more or less exactly what the presiding judge has ruled should have happened) to announcing that Richard played a major role in Leicester's history.

Where was the response from the Plantagenet Alliance? If they were given airspace outside local radio I didn't hear it. It's unfortunate that the issue has become one of "sides", but it was kind of inevitable because of the way it was handled from the outset. That's what *I* take form the presiding judge's comments. You're right - it absolutely should not be a battle, but it has become one.

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 16/8/13, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
To: "Richard III Society Forum" <>
Date: Friday, 16 August, 2013, 23:06





Wednesday wrote: "I think this may be one of
the cases where there's a great deal going on behind
the scenes. When a general is fighting a battle, it's
often wise not to share one's plans ahead of time, but
to keep them close and hidden from the enemy."



But this isn't a battle. Or, at least, it
shouldn't be. In fact, that was the most strongly
emphasised part of the judgement.



It's also a mistake to view Leicester and York as two
discrete entities in binary opposition, rather than simply
two cities containing different people with a variety of
views. I doubt Leicester Cathedral and York Minster see
themselves as being in competition and I'm certain that
would be the very last thing that the church authorities
would want.



The worst thing about all this is that it makes Richard a
divisive figure all over again, with Radio 4 this evening
using a excerpt from the Olivier film to lead into the news
report. Well done, the Plantagenet Alliance, for that.



Jonathan

Isn't this the paradox?

If people fight for York as the possible burial site, they are accused of rendering Richard a divisive figure (Ha!).

If they maintain a dignified silence, they are accused of lack of interest.......

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 16/8/13, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
To: "" <>
Date: Friday, 16 August, 2013, 20:58




I agree. 



Liz



________________________________

From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>

To:


Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:51

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



 

Butting in here, but that is so beautifully expressed,
Carole. =^..^=



From: carole hughes

Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:21 PM

To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



Hi Alison,

No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer
to York which is a City I love very much and have visited
many times. My feelings that he should be buried in
Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I
visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its
proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always
shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to
visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral
and say a prayer for Richard.

If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be
buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen
any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where
he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be
buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
the men who died fighting for him.



Regards

Carole



________________________________

From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>

To:
"mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



Do you reside in Leicester Carole?



Alison



________________________________

From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>

To:
"mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



I think we have to remember that it is only a review and
that may be decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury
him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet
alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will
state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will
be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have
to get over it.



Carole



________________________________

From: lizwilliams
<mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>

To:
"mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care
"where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate
tomb and is honoured properly.



Liz



From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>

To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester
very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly
want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after
all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish
him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him
with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood
York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is
embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has
certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured.
I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will
close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=



From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com

Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM

To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com

Subject: Alliance Judicial
Review



Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted
their judicial review, God Bless em.

Loyaulte me Lie

Thanks for the response Carole.
I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
 
This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
 
So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
 
I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with fond memories; its
town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
 
I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest days of
his short life.
 
As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
 
Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
 
Hopeful kind regards!
Alison


________________________________
From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison,
 No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.

Regards
Carole

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


 
Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
 
Alison

________________________________
From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 

Carole

________________________________
From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.

Liz

From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Totally agree with you Jonathan, at least there will be some consultation now and even though I support Richard being in York Minster I will accept the decision even if I don't like it.
At least we will have supported Richard and not let some people who seem to think they are above the law get away with it. Good on The Honourable Mr Justice Haddon-Cave.

--- In , Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:
>
> Wednesday wrote: "I think this may be one of the cases where there's a great deal going on behind the scenes. When a general is fighting a battle, it's often wise not to share one's plans ahead of time, but to keep them close and hidden from the enemy."
>
>
> But this isn't a battle. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. In fact, that was the most strongly emphasised part of the judgement.
>
> It's also a mistake to view Leicester and York as two discrete entities in binary opposition, rather than simply two cities containing different people with a variety of views. I doubt Leicester Cathedral and York Minster see themselves as being in competition and I'm certain that would be the very last thing that the church authorities would want.
>
> The worst thing about all this is that it makes Richard a divisive figure all over again, with Radio 4 this evening using a excerpt from the Olivier film to lead into the news report. Well done, the Plantagenet Alliance, for that.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>

I shouldn't use he word "accuse", it sounds a little strong - but you know what I mean; it's a no-win situation.

I have encountered great strength of feeling about this from a lot of people - almost entirely on York's behalf, and often from those with no particular interest in history. In particular, the feeling of local pride in Yorkshire and the north about a King - the only king - who once lived in the area turns out to be pretty fierce.

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 17/8/13, Janet Ashton <jaangelfire@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
To:
Date: Saturday, 17 August, 2013, 1:50

Isn't this the paradox?

If people fight for York as the possible burial site, they
are accused of rendering Richard a divisive figure (Ha!).

If they maintain a dignified silence, they are accused of
lack of interest.......

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 16/8/13, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
wrote:

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review
To: ""
<>
Date: Friday, 16 August, 2013, 20:58


       
       
       I agree. 



Liz



________________________________

From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>

To:


Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:51

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



 

Butting in here, but that is so beautifully expressed,
Carole. =^..^=



From: carole hughes

Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:21 PM

To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



Hi Alison,

No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer
to York which is a City I love very much and have visited
many times. My feelings that he should be buried in
Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I
visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its
proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has
always
shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to
visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral
and say a prayer for Richard.

If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be
buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not
seen
any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to
where
he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should
be
buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
the men who died fighting for him.



Regards

Carole



________________________________

From: Alison Shiels
<mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>

To:
"mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



Do you reside in Leicester Carole?



Alison



________________________________

From: carole hughes
<mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>

To:
"mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



I think we have to remember that it is only a review and
that may be decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury
him. Some people are already declaring that the
Plantagenet
alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will
state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will
be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would
have
to get over it.



Carole



________________________________

From: lizwilliams
<mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>

To:
"mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care
"where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate
tomb and is honoured properly.



Liz



From: SandraMachin
<mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>

To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22

Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
Review



So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester
very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly
want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after
all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not
wish
him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing
him
with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood
York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is
embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has
certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly
honoured.
I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will
close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=



From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com

Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM

To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com

Subject: Alliance Judicial
Review



Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted
their judicial review, God Bless em.

Loyaulte me Lie

































     
     

     
     






   

I really hoped this would have gone away by now, BUT...

Reading today that the Alliance is claiming that "Richard was raised at
Middleham." Incorrect. He spent part of his training years there,
possibly four at most and that not entirely, from late 1461 to early
1465. "Richard was known as Richard of York before he became king".
Incorrect. He was a member of the house of York, but was known from 1461
on as Richard of Gloucester. Is Gloucester claiming him? No. "Richard
visited York numerous times during his short reign." Incorrect. Apart
from the investiture of his son, during the progress after his
coronation, he did not visit the city. "He wanted to be buried in York."
Incorrect. There are no documents stating of his intentions to be buried
anywhere, while his wife, who had shared his life with him in the north,
and who had indeed been born and raised at Middleham, he buried in
Westminster Abbey, an indication that he was looking at the bigger
picture now he was king of ALL England, and no longer just lord of the
north.
Paul




On 17/08/2013 13:21, Janet Ashton wrote:
> I shouldn't use he word "accuse", it sounds a little strong - but you know what I mean; it's a no-win situation.
>
> I have encountered great strength of feeling about this from a lot of people - almost entirely on York's behalf, and often from those with no particular interest in history. In particular, the feeling of local pride in Yorkshire and the north about a King - the only king - who once lived in the area turns out to be pretty fierce.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 17/8/13, Janet Ashton <jaangelfire@...> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> To:
> Date: Saturday, 17 August, 2013, 1:50
>
> Isn't this the paradox?
>
> If people fight for York as the possible burial site, they
> are accused of rendering Richard a divisive figure (Ha!).
>
> If they maintain a dignified silence, they are accused of
> lack of interest.......
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 16/8/13, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
> Review
> To: ""
> <>
> Date: Friday, 16 August, 2013, 20:58
>
>
>
>
> I agree.
>
>
>
> Liz
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
>
> To:
>
>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:51
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
> Review
>
>
>
>
>
> Butting in here, but that is so beautifully expressed,
> Carole. =^..^=
>
>
>
> From: carole hughes
>
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:21 PM
>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
> Review
>
>
>
> Hi Alison,
>
> No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer
> to York which is a City I love very much and have visited
> many times. My feelings that he should be buried in
> Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I
> visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its
> proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has
> always
> shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to
> visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral
> and say a prayer for Richard.
>
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be
> buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not
> seen
> any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to
> where
> he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should
> be
> buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
> the men who died fighting for him.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Carole
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Alison Shiels
> <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
>
> To:
> "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
> Review
>
>
>
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
>
>
>
> Alison
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: carole hughes
> <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
>
> To:
> "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
> Review
>
>
>
> I think we have to remember that it is only a review and
> that may be decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury
> him. Some people are already declaring that the
> Plantagenet
> alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will
> state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will
> be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would
> have
> to get over it.
>
>
>
> Carole
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: lizwilliams
> <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
>
> To:
> "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
> Review
>
>
>
> Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care
> "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate
> tomb and is honoured properly.
>
>
>
> Liz
>
>
>
> From: SandraMachin
> <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial
> Review
>
>
>
> So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester
> very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly
> want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after
> all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not
> wish
> him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing
> him
> with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood
> York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is
> embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has
> certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly
> honoured.
> I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will
> close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
>
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
>
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>
> Subject: Alliance Judicial
> Review
>
>
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted
> their judicial review, God Bless em.
>
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> I really hoped this would have gone away by now, BUT...
>
> Reading today that the Alliance is claiming that "Richard was raised at
> Middleham." Incorrect. He spent part of his training years there,
> possibly four at most and that not entirely, from late 1461 to early
> 1465.


Sorry Paul,
Almost certainly at Middleham from 1464 to 1468, not 1461 to 1465. We can discuss this in more detail if you would like.
Marie


"Richard was known as Richard of York before he became king".
> Incorrect. He was a member of the house of York, but was known from 1461
> on as Richard of Gloucester. Is Gloucester claiming him? No. "Richard
> visited York numerous times during his short reign." Incorrect. Apart
> from the investiture of his son, during the progress after his
> coronation, he did not visit the city.

Sorry again Paul,
He also visited York at the beginning of May 1484, after Prince Edward's death, and again in June on his way back south.
Marie

"He wanted to be buried in York."
> Incorrect. There are no documents stating of his intentions to be buried
> anywhere, while his wife, who had shared his life with him in the north,
> and who had indeed been born and raised at Middleham, he buried in
> Westminster Abbey, an indication that he was looking at the bigger
> picture now he was king of ALL England, and no longer just lord of the
> north.
> Paul

I'd call Lang's piece absurdly emotional.  "Tudors 3 Ricardians nil"  How childish.



Liz


________________________________
From: Janet Ashton <jaangelfire@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:42
Subject: Re: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Richard has always been a divisive figure. As soon as his bones were found some extraordinarily polarised and one-sided views were published by people who ought to know better - e.g look at Sean Lang in History Today for some extremely emotional responses from a "traditionalist". I don't think you can blame the Plantagenet Alliance for that.

It's a shame that radio 4 gave airspace only to Peter Soulsby, at least as far as I heard, who made a number of erroneous or irrelevant points that ranged from the claim that Richard "had lain in the shadow of leicester Cathedral for 500 years" to declaring that if all relatives were to be consulted what would be necessary was along the lines of an opinion poll (which is more or less exactly what the presiding judge has ruled should have happened) to announcing that Richard played a major role in Leicester's history.

Where was the response from the Plantagenet Alliance? If they were given airspace outside local radio I didn't hear it. It's unfortunate that the issue has become one of "sides", but it was kind of inevitable because of the way it was handled from the outset. That's what *I* take form the presiding judge's comments. You're right - it absolutely should not be a battle, but it has become one.

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 16/8/13, Jonathan Evans <mailto:jmcevans98%40yahoo.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
To: "Richard III Society Forum" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, 16 August, 2013, 23:06





Wednesday wrote: "I think this may be one of
the cases where there's a great deal going on behind
the scenes. When a general is fighting a battle, it's
often wise not to share one's plans ahead of time, but
to keep them close and hidden from the enemy."



But this isn't a battle. Or, at least, it
shouldn't be. In fact, that was the most strongly
emphasised part of the judgement.



It's also a mistake to view Leicester and York as two
discrete entities in binary opposition, rather than simply
two cities containing different people with a variety of
views. I doubt Leicester Cathedral and York Minster see
themselves as being in competition and I'm certain that
would be the very last thing that the church authorities
would want.



The worst thing about all this is that it makes Richard a
divisive figure all over again, with Radio 4 this evening
using a excerpt from the Olivier film to lead into the news
report. Well done, the Plantagenet Alliance, for that.



Jonathan

 Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms  Gregory could ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard at Middleham!.

Liz


________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Thanks for the response Carole.
I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
 
This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
 
So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
 
I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with fond memories; its
town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
 
I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest days of
his short life.
 
As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
 
Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
 
Hopeful kind regards!
Alison


________________________________
From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison,
 No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.

Regards
Carole

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
 
Alison

________________________________
From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 

Carole

________________________________
From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.

Liz

From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Alison Shiels wrote:

//snip//

(I'm not a UK citizen, but I am a member of the RIII Society, which is the
only reason I'm posting this.)
I just wanted to say that, while I think you might be ascribing to Richard
some wishes/intentions that are, at least at present, unknowable, you've
done so in a very intelligent and even moving way and I wanted to let you
know that.
Had Richard died a natural death he'd most likely have been buried at
Westminster or possibly Windsor. What with having been King and all. Even if
Richard survived Bosworth by only, say, a decade, and then been defeated in
similar circumstances to what happened at Bosworth (I'm not good at
"alternative" history!) we still would likely have *some* idea of where he'd
planned to be buried, if only by what had been done about Anne and Edward,
if anything, during that period.
It's that we *don't* know what Richard intended that's really behind any
"problems". I spent five years in the UK and could kick myself for all the
places, including both York and Leicester, that I *didn't* visit, so I can't
comment from personal experience. I can say that, to me anyway, *all* that
matters is that Richard is treated with honor and dignityand I believe both
Leicester and York would do so.
Doug
(who still prefers the idea of some small country church near Bosworth...)

Alison,

I really appreciate everything you wrote here. I share your sentiment.

hli4

--- In , Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks Liz, much appreciated.
 
Not sure if you would be interested, but the picture of Middleham which hangs on my wall can be seen on my cousin's website nicola.rose@... and it is under her 'recent work'.  It may be a little too dark and brooding for many peoples tastes, but it truly represents how the castle looked on a very dark, windswept April morning this year.  She did all the preparatory sketches at the castle, and the final picture took her 7 weeks to produce, as she uses a layering technique with her paints.  She also has a great interest in Richard, and knowing me the way she does, was able to depict the way I felt that day, due to all the controversy surrounding the final resting place for his mortal remains.
 
Kind regards
Alison
 


________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 16:49
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 



 Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms  Gregory could ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard at Middleham!.

Liz

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Thanks for the response Carole.
I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
 
This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
 
So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
 
I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with fond memories; its
town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
 
I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest days of
his short life.
 
As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
 
Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
 
Hopeful kind regards!
Alison

________________________________
From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison,
 No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.

Regards
Carole

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
 
Alison

________________________________
From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 

Carole

________________________________
From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.

Liz

From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=

From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
Loyaulte me Lie

Do you have a url for your cousin's website - you've given us what seems to
be her e-mail address since when I click on it, I get the "form" to write
an e-mail.

A J


On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thanks Liz, much appreciated.
>
> Not sure if you would be interested, but the picture of Middleham which
> hangs on my wall can be seen on my cousin's website nicola.rose@... it is under her 'recent work'. It may be a little too dark and
> brooding for many peoples tastes, but it truly represents how the castle
> looked on a very dark, windswept April morning this year. She did all the
> preparatory sketches at the castle, and the final picture took her 7 weeks
> to produce, as she uses a layering technique with her paints. She also has
> a great interest in Richard, and knowing me the way she does, was able to
> depict the way I felt that day, due to all the controversy surrounding the
> final resting place for his mortal remains.
>
> Kind regards
> Alison
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 16:49
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
>
> Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms Gregory could
> ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard at
> Middleham!.
>
> Liz
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no
> doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.
> You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many
> times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars
> locus to Leicester Cathedral. I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth,
> and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being
> so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of
> course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard
> III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to
> so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would
> be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery. I
> am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by
> the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely
> knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I
> certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth.
> However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their
> own thoughts to the table here. As we live in a democracy, I believe it is
> only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final
> resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on
> various web sites.
>
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester
> burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely
> hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet
> another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically
> the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with
> particular interest in the life and times of Richard III. I live
> in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all
> of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North'
> and 'King of England'. I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny
> Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were
> brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day. I
> have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and
> been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of
> Richard's son, Edward. Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a
> place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his
> father. My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with
> fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard,
> and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there. I
> love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.
> She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image
> measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy
> prose!
>
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many,
> many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his
> beloved Yorkshire. It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of
> Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July
> summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his
> wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to
> where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell
> that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land
> as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to
> the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most
> genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be
> laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away
> from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the
> happiest days of
> his short life.
>
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if
> at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and
> stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed
> through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were
> welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries. Imagine
> the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and
> Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of
> sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good
> wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put
> their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their
> friend. Then return to Leicester.
>
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only
> because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.
> Nothing is wrong with Leicester. Bosworth is where Richard so
> courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be
> proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the
> wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating
> Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only
> that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and
> we could all move on democratically. Good grief, I have practically
> written a Philippa Gregory!!! Please do not all attack at once!!!
>
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> Hi Alison,
> No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which
> is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he
> should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when
> I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to
> the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard
> and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in
> the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York
> then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever
> expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting
> that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
> the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
>
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> I think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be
> decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are
> already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the
> case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be
> upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets
> an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> So...now what? York doesnýt seem interested, Leicester very much is, for
> whatever reason. I donýt particularly want to see this wide consultation
> deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do
> not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with
> his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkýs standpoint?
> Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our
> king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured.
> I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door
> quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial
> review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In , Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi there
 
Please forgive me, I must have been having a 'numpty' moment, with regard to my cousin's website.  Too much time spent in the fifteenth century methinks!!!
 
Hope you have better luck with this; once again the picture on my wall of Middleham, is within her 'recent work'.   http://www.nicolaroseartist.com/
 
Kind regards

Alison


________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:09
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


Do you have a url for your cousin's website - you've given us what seems to
be her e-mail address since when I click on it, I get the "form" to write
an e-mail.

A J


On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thanks Liz, much appreciated.
>
> Not sure if you would be interested, but the picture of Middleham which
> hangs on my wall can be seen on my cousin's website nicola.rose@... it is under her 'recent work'.  It may be a little too dark and
> brooding for many peoples tastes, but it truly represents how the castle
> looked on a very dark, windswept April morning this year.  She did all the
> preparatory sketches at the castle, and the final picture took her 7 weeks
> to produce, as she uses a layering technique with her paints.  She also has
> a great interest in Richard, and knowing me the way she does, was able to
> depict the way I felt that day, due to all the controversy surrounding the
> final resting place for his mortal remains.
>
> Kind regards
> Alison
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 16:49
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
>
>  Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms  Gregory could
> ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard at
> Middleham!.
>
> Liz
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no
> doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.
> You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many
> times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars
> locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth,
> and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being
> so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of
> course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard
> III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to
> so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would
> be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I
> am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by
> the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely
> knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I
> certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth.
> However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their
> own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is
> only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final
> resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on
> various web sites.
>
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester
> burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely
> hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet
> another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically
> the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with
> particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live
> in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all
> of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North'
> and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny
> Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were
> brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I
> have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and
> been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of
> Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a
> place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his
> father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with
> fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard,
> and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I
> love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.
> She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image
> measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy
> prose!
>
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many,
> many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his
> beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of
> Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July
> summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his
> wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to
> where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell
> that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land
> as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to
> the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most
> genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be
> laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away
> from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the
> happiest days of
> his short life.
>
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if
> at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and
> stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed
> through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were
> welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine
> the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and
> Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of
> sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good
> wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put
> their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their
> friend.  Then return to Leicester.
>
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only
> because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.
> Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so
> courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be
> proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the
> wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating
> Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only
> that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and
> we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically
> written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which
> is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he
> should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when
> I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to
> the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard
> and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in
> the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York
> then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever
> expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting
> that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
> the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
>
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be
> decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are
> already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the
> case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be
> upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets
> an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for
> whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation
> deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do
> not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with
> his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint?
> Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our
> king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured.
> I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door
> quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial
> review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Wow - she does some wonderful work. Thanks for the url.

A J


On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi there
>
> Please forgive me, I must have been having a 'numpty' moment, with regard
> to my cousin's website. Too much time spent in the fifteenth century
> methinks!!!
>
> Hope you have better luck with this; once again the picture on my wall of
> Middleham, is within her 'recent work'. http://www.nicolaroseartist.com/
>
> Kind regards
>
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:09
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Do you have a url for your cousin's website - you've given us what seems to
> be her e-mail address since when I click on it, I get the "form" to write
> an e-mail.
>
> A J
>
> On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...
> >wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks Liz, much appreciated.
> >
> > Not sure if you would be interested, but the picture of Middleham which
> > hangs on my wall can be seen on my cousin's website
> nicola.rose@... it is under her 'recent work'. It may be a
> little too dark and
>
> > brooding for many peoples tastes, but it truly represents how the castle
> > looked on a very dark, windswept April morning this year. She did all
> the
> > preparatory sketches at the castle, and the final picture took her 7
> weeks
> > to produce, as she uses a layering technique with her paints. She also
> has
> > a great interest in Richard, and knowing me the way she does, was able to
> > depict the way I felt that day, due to all the controversy surrounding
> the
> > final resting place for his mortal remains.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Alison
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> > To: "" <
> > >
> > Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 16:49
> >
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms Gregory could
> > ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard
> at
> > Middleham!.
> >
> > Liz
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> > %40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
> >
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the response Carole.
> > I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no
> > doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.
> > You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many
> > times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the
> Greyfriars
> > locus to Leicester Cathedral. I too have been to Leicester, and
> Bosworth,
> > and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply
> being
> > so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of
> > course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard
> > III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
> >
> > This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly
> to
> > so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would
> > be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery. I
> > am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by
> > the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely
> > knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I
> > certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth.
> > However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring
> their
> > own thoughts to the table here. As we live in a democracy, I believe it
> is
> > only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's
> final
> > resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on
> > various web sites.
> >
> > So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester
> > burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I
> sincerely
> > hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet
> > another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
> >
> > I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically
> > the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with
> > particular interest in the life and times of Richard III. I live
> > in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions,
> all
> > of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North'
> > and 'King of England'. I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny
> > Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were
> > brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day. I
> > have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and
> > been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of
> > Richard's son, Edward. Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb
> is a
> > place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and
> his
> > father. My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with
> > fond memories; its
> > town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard,
> > and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there. I
> > love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an
> artist.
> > She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful
> image
> > measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy
> > prose!
> >
> > I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many,
> > many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his
> > beloved Yorkshire. It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of
> > Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July
> > summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his
> > wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to
> > where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell
> > that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land
> > as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to
> > the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe
> most
> > genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will
> be
> > laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away
> > from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the
> > happiest days of
> > his short life.
> >
> > As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if
> > at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and
> > stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard
> passed
> > through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were
> > welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.
> Imagine
> > the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard
> and
> > Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of
> > sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good
> > wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to
> put
> > their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their
> > friend. Then return to Leicester.
> >
> > Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only
> > because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.
> > Nothing is wrong with Leicester. Bosworth is where Richard so
> > courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be
> > proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the
> > wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating
> > Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only
> > that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised
> and
> > we could all move on democratically. Good grief, I have practically
> > written a Philippa Gregory!!! Please do not all attack at once!!!
> >
> > Hopeful kind regards!
> > Alison
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> > %40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Alison,
> > No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which
> > is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that
> he
> > should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got
> when
> > I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to
> > the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to
> Richard
> > and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in
> > the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
> > If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York
> > then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard
> ever
> > expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting
> > that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and
> near
> > the men who died fighting for him.
> >
> > Regards
> > Carole
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> > %40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> > Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
> >
> > Alison
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> > %40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> >
> > I think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be
> > decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are
> > already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not
> the
> > case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will
> be
> > upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.
> >
> > Carole
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> > %40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> > Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets
> > an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
> >
> > Liz
> >
> > From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> > So...now what? York doesnýt seem interested, Leicester very much is, for
> > whatever reason. I donýt particularly want to see this wide consultation
> > deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I
> do
> > not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with
> > his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkýs standpoint?
> > Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for
> our
> > king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly
> honoured.
> > I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door
> > quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
> >
> > From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial
> > review, God Bless em.
> > Loyaulte me Lie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

I am with you here. had he lived as King, he would have been buried in Westminster Abbey. He has been in Leicester since his death. As Leicester wants him, and his body would only have been recovered with Leicester's agreement, it seems only right and proper that he is finally laid to rest in Leicester Cathedral

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
>
> From: christineholmes651@...
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To:
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hello there.
 
I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
 
We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
Kind regards again
 
Alison


________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In the last few days I've tried to stand back from this and to look at it objectively. In this country it has been custom and practice for hundreds of years for a person to either nominate their own burial place, or in the absence of this, for their kin to do it for them. Custom and practice works; it's why it is what it is, because everyone perceives it the best way to do things and it's the basis of the Law. The archaelogical burial licence is a red herring, as I think our Judge has indicated; it's there for the protection and disposal of unidentified remains and will perhaps get more controversial and less relevant as DNA and other modern methods enable us to identify remains in a way we never could.
If Richard had died a even hundred years' ago no-one would have raised an eyebrow that the decision should be made by his next of kin. Even though he was a king, he doesn't belong to any of us and he certainly doesn't belong to the locations who are making a bid for him to be buried there, for whatever reason. It is for his identified next of kin (however remote they might be after 500 years) to make that decision for him. It's no different for one of us having to make a decision about Great Uncle Wilfred who emigrated to South Africa sixty years' ago. We might not know him, or much about him, but custom and practice says it falls to us to deal with it. In fact one could say the Alliance know a great deal more about Richard because he has been so studied, than a relative having to deal with the remains of a 'normal' person. Morever, I'm sure if someone accidentally exhumed my great x 16 grandfather, or great uncle, I'd still want a say in where they
put him afterwards.
If the Alliance has made a mistake it is in revealing its hand before the recent decision was made. That way it could all have been done behind closed doors with greater dignity and the final outcome eventually revealed in the way our current royal family make announcements. Unfortunately it does now appeal to the media circus.
I do indeed have a view, and three or four places would meet with my approval (including Doug's country church), but it is only a view and is irrelevant to any final decision, which should, I think, be made, without pressure, by his next of kin.  Hilary


________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In , Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Wow, that's a fantastic piece of work.



Liz


________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 23:03
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Hi there
 
Please forgive me, I must have been having a 'numpty' moment, with regard to my cousin's website.  Too much time spent in the fifteenth century methinks!!!
 
Hope you have better luck with this; once again the picture on my wall of Middleham, is within her 'recent work'.   http://www.nicolaroseartist.com/
 
Kind regards

Alison


________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <mailto:ajhibbard%40gmail.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:09
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


Do you have a url for your cousin's website - you've given us what seems to
be her e-mail address since when I click on it, I get the "form" to write
an e-mail.

A J

On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thanks Liz, much appreciated.
>
> Not sure if you would be interested, but the picture of Middleham which
> hangs on my wall can be seen on my cousin's website mailto:nicola.rose%40zen.co.ukand it is under her 'recent work'.  It may be a little too dark and
> brooding for many peoples tastes, but it truly represents how the castle
> looked on a very dark, windswept April morning this year.  She did all the
> preparatory sketches at the castle, and the final picture took her 7 weeks
> to produce, as she uses a layering technique with her paints.  She also has
> a great interest in Richard, and knowing me the way she does, was able to
> depict the way I felt that day, due to all the controversy surrounding the
> final resting place for his mortal remains.
>
> Kind regards
> Alison
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <
> mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 16:49
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
>
>  Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms  Gregory could
> ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard at
> Middleham!.
>
> Liz
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no
> doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.
> You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many
> times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars
> locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth,
> and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being
> so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of
> course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard
> III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to
> so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would
> be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I
> am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by
> the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely
> knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I
> certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth.
> However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their
> own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is
> only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final
> resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on
> various web sites.
>
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester
> burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely
> hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet
> another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically
> the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with
> particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live
> in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all
> of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North'
> and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny
> Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were
> brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I
> have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and
> been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of
> Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a
> place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his
> father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with
> fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard,
> and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I
> love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.
> She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image
> measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy
> prose!
>
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many,
> many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his
> beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of
> Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July
> summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his
> wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to
> where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell
> that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land
> as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to
> the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most
> genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be
> laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away
> from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the
> happiest days of
> his short life.
>
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if
> at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and
> stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed
> through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were
> welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine
> the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and
> Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of
> sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good
> wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put
> their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their
> friend.  Then return to Leicester.
>
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only
> because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.
> Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so
> courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be
> proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the
> wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating
> Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only
> that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and
> we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically
> written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which
> is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he
> should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when
> I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to
> the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard
> and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in
> the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York
> then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever
> expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting
> that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
> the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
>
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be
> decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are
> already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the
> case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be
> upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets
> an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for
> whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation
> deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do
> not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with
> his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint?
> Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our
> king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured.
> I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door
> quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial
> review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

No Alison I don't live in Leicestershire. Pamela is a member of this Forum. She may well post in the Leicester Mercury in fact I may have seen comments from her online.

I think that I feel that you can't change history Richard was buried in Leicester for 500 years and I just feel that it is right that he should be reburied there.Pamela's comments on her visit to Leicester made me feel more comfortable about it. While I am not really happy with the money side of it at least he will be the centre of attention and his story more accessible to the public. In York, Westminster or Windsor there would be distractions. I love York indeed as one of my fellow Branch members said on a visit there it is like coming home. If Richard had lived and died of old age he probably would have been buried at Westminster or Windsor not York. Obviously we can't know that for certain, however, it is a possibility.

--- In , Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Hello there.
>  
> I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
>  
> We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
> Kind regards again
>  
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.
>
> For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.
>
> I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the response Carole.
> > I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
> >  
> > This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
> >  
> > So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
> >  
> > I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
> thought of with fond memories; its
> > town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
> >  
> > I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
> days of
> > his short life.
> >  
> > As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
> >  
> > Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
> >  
> > Hopeful kind regards!
> > Alison
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: carole hughes <caroleugis@>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >  
> >
> > Hi Alison,
> >  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> > If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
> >
> > Regards
> > Carole
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> >  
> > Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
> >  
> > Alison
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >  
> >
> > I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
> >
> > Carole
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >  
> > Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
> >
> > Liz
> >
> > From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >  
> > So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
> >
> > From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> > Loyaulte me Lie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

There is just one other purely selfish aspect of this that may not have been considered, ie the day of the reburial itself. Leicester Cathedral is very small indeed, originally built as a parish church, so many more people would be able to attend if he were being reburied in the Minster. But I agree, even as things stand it is more than we could possibly have hoped for and I'm not going to complain at all if Richard's remains are reinterred in Leicester Cathedral. We sometimes talk as though we believe he is still inhabiting his bones and is stuck for eternity wherever they lie - I sincerely hope this is not the way things work!
Marie

--- In , "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> No Alison I don't live in Leicestershire. Pamela is a member of this Forum. She may well post in the Leicester Mercury in fact I may have seen comments from her online.
>
> I think that I feel that you can't change history Richard was buried in Leicester for 500 years and I just feel that it is right that he should be reburied there.Pamela's comments on her visit to Leicester made me feel more comfortable about it. While I am not really happy with the money side of it at least he will be the centre of attention and his story more accessible to the public. In York, Westminster or Windsor there would be distractions. I love York indeed as one of my fellow Branch members said on a visit there it is like coming home. If Richard had lived and died of old age he probably would have been buried at Westminster or Windsor not York. Obviously we can't know that for certain, however, it is a possibility.
>
> --- In , Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello there.
> >  
> > I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
> >  
> > We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
> > Kind regards again
> >  
> > Alison
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ricard1an <maryfriend@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >  
> >
> > Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.
> >
> > For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.
> >
> > I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the response Carole.
> > > I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
> > >  
> > > This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
> > >  
> > > So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
> > >  
> > > I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
> > thought of with fond memories; its
> > > town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
> > >  
> > > I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
> > days of
> > > his short life.
> > >  
> > > As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
> > >  
> > > Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
> > >  
> > > Hopeful kind regards!
> > > Alison
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: carole hughes <caroleugis@>
> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Hi Alison,
> > >  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> > > If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Carole
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > > Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
> > >  
> > > Alison
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
> > >
> > > Carole
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> > >
> > >  
> > > Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
> > >
> > > Liz
> > >
> > > From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> > >
> > >  
> > > So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
> > >
> > > From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> > > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
> > >
> > > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> > > Loyaulte me Lie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Oh my, that is gorgeous.

On Aug 17, 2013, at 7:28 PM, "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...> wrote:

> Wow - she does some wonderful work. Thanks for the url.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Hi there
>>
>> Please forgive me, I must have been having a 'numpty' moment, with regard
>> to my cousin's website. Too much time spent in the fifteenth century
>> methinks!!!
>>
>> Hope you have better luck with this; once again the picture on my wall of
>> Middleham, is within her 'recent work'. http://www.nicolaroseartist.com/
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Alison
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
>> To: "" <
>> >
>> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:09
>>
>> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>>
>>
>> Do you have a url for your cousin's website - you've given us what seems to
>> be her e-mail address since when I click on it, I get the "form" to write
>> an e-mail.
>>
>> A J
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Liz, much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Not sure if you would be interested, but the picture of Middleham which
>>> hangs on my wall can be seen on my cousin's website
>> nicola.rose@... it is under her 'recent work'. It may be a
>> little too dark and
>>
>>> brooding for many peoples tastes, but it truly represents how the castle
>>> looked on a very dark, windswept April morning this year. She did all
>> the
>>> preparatory sketches at the castle, and the final picture took her 7
>> weeks
>>> to produce, as she uses a layering technique with her paints. She also
>> has
>>> a great interest in Richard, and knowing me the way she does, was able to
>>> depict the way I felt that day, due to all the controversy surrounding
>> the
>>> final resting place for his mortal remains.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Alison
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
>>> To: "" <
>>> >
>>> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 16:49
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms Gregory could
>>> ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard
>> at
>>> Middleham!.
>>>
>>> Liz
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
>>> %40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the response Carole.
>>> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no
>>> doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.
>>> You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many
>>> times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the
>> Greyfriars
>>> locus to Leicester Cathedral. I too have been to Leicester, and
>> Bosworth,
>>> and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply
>> being
>>> so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of
>>> course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard
>>> III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>>>
>>> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly
>> to
>>> so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would
>>> be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery. I
>>> am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by
>>> the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely
>>> knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I
>>> certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth.
>>> However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring
>> their
>>> own thoughts to the table here. As we live in a democracy, I believe it
>> is
>>> only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's
>> final
>>> resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on
>>> various web sites.
>>>
>>> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester
>>> burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I
>> sincerely
>>> hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet
>>> another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>>>
>>> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically
>>> the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with
>>> particular interest in the life and times of Richard III. I live
>>> in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions,
>> all
>>> of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North'
>>> and 'King of England'. I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny
>>> Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were
>>> brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day. I
>>> have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and
>>> been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of
>>> Richard's son, Edward. Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb
>> is a
>>> place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and
>> his
>>> father. My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with
>>> fond memories; its
>>> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard,
>>> and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there. I
>>> love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an
>> artist.
>>> She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful
>> image
>>> measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy
>>> prose!
>>>
>>> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many,
>>> many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his
>>> beloved Yorkshire. It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of
>>> Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July
>>> summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his
>>> wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to
>>> where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell
>>> that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land
>>> as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to
>>> the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe
>> most
>>> genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will
>> be
>>> laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away
>>> from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the
>>> happiest days of
>>> his short life.
>>>
>>> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if
>>> at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and
>>> stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard
>> passed
>>> through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were
>>> welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.
>> Imagine
>>> the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard
>> and
>>> Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of
>>> sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good
>>> wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to
>> put
>>> their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their
>>> friend. Then return to Leicester.
>>>
>>> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only
>>> because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.
>>> Nothing is wrong with Leicester. Bosworth is where Richard so
>>> courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be
>>> proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the
>>> wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating
>>> Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only
>>> that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised
>> and
>>> we could all move on democratically. Good grief, I have practically
>>> written a Philippa Gregory!!! Please do not all attack at once!!!
>>>
>>> Hopeful kind regards!
>>> Alison
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
>>> %40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
>>> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Alison,
>>> No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which
>>> is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that
>> he
>>> should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got
>> when
>>> I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to
>>> the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to
>> Richard
>>> and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in
>>> the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
>>> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York
>>> then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard
>> ever
>>> expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting
>>> that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and
>> near
>>> the men who died fighting for him.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Carole
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
>>> %40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
>>> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
>>>
>>> Alison
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
>>> %40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
>>> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be
>>> decided that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are
>>> already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not
>> the
>>> case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will
>> be
>>> upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.
>>>
>>> Carole
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
>>> %40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
>>> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>>>
>>>
>>> Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets
>>> an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>>>
>>> Liz
>>>
>>> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
>>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
>>> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>>>
>>>
>>> So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for
>>> whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation
>>> deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I
>> do
>>> not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with
>>> his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint?
>>> Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for
>> our
>>> king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly
>> honoured.
>>> I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door
>>> quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>>>
>>> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
>>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
>>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>>>
>>> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial
>>> review, God Bless em.
>>> Loyaulte me Lie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

As a Yank, it is hard to comment. I thought this had been discussed here, and sliced, diced, and put back together more than once. We really seem to have no control, or no voice, with those who do. I think we all want it to be dignified and with the ceremony entitled. Where, since, we have nothing but an opinion, is not up to us (I think I am correct).

On Aug 18, 2013, at 7:36 AM, "ricard1an" <maryfriend@...<mailto:maryfriend@...>> wrote:



No Alison I don't live in Leicestershire. Pamela is a member of this Forum. She may well post in the Leicester Mercury in fact I may have seen comments from her online.

I think that I feel that you can't change history Richard was buried in Leicester for 500 years and I just feel that it is right that he should be reburied there.Pamela's comments on her visit to Leicester made me feel more comfortable about it. While I am not really happy with the money side of it at least he will be the centre of attention and his story more accessible to the public. In York, Westminster or Windsor there would be distractions. I love York indeed as one of my fellow Branch members said on a visit there it is like coming home. If Richard had lived and died of old age he probably would have been buried at Westminster or Windsor not York. Obviously we can't know that for certain, however, it is a possibility.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Hello there.
> ý
> I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?ý ý Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?ý Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?ý I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something aboutý so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!ý Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
> ý
> We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able toý witness the remains ofý a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.ý I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time.ý
> Kind regards again
> ý
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> ý
>
> Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.
>
> For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.
>
> I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the response Carole.
> > I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.ýýý You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.ýýý I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
> > ýýý
> > This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.ýýý I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts,ýýý are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainlyýýý would not wish toýýý presumeýýý my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.ýýý As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic commentsýýý I have seen on various web sites.ýýý
> > ýýý
> > So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow meýýý write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
> > ýýý
> > I have held an interest in medieval history forýýý a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.ýýý I live inýýý Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to haveýýý visited on several occasions,ýýý all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' andýýý 'King of England'.ýýý I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day,ýýý to where many of the deadýýý were brought, following that snowy Palmýýý Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.ýýý ýýý I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.ýýý Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.ýýý My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
> thought of with fond memories; its
> > town, populace,ýýý and castle were particularly wellýýý thought ofýýý by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.ýýý I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.ýýý She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!ýýý ýýý
> > ýýý
> > I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.ýýý It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle,ýýý be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you,ýýý to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
> days of
> > his short life.
> > ýýý
> > As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the sameýýý place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.ýýý Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writingýýý following the death of their King, their friend.ýýý ýýý ýýý Then return to Leicester.
> > ýýý
> > Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.ýýý Nothing is wrong with Leicester.ýýý Bosworthýýý is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.ýýý Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!ýýý Please do not all attack at once!!!
> > ýýý
> > Hopeful kind regards!
> > Alison
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: carole hughes <caroleugis@>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> > ýýý
> >
> > Hi Alison,
> > ýýý No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.ýýý
> > If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
> >
> > Regards
> > Carole
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com<http://40yahoo.com>>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> > ýýý
> > Do you reside in Leicester Carole?ýýý
> > ýýý
> > Alison
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk<http://40yahoo.co.uk>>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> > ýýý
> >
> > I ýýý think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided ýýý that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.ýýý
> >
> > Carole
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com<http://40btinternet.com>>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> > ýýý
> > Well I'm with you Sandra.ýýý I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
> >
> > Liz
> >
> > From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk<http://40live.co.uk>>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> > ýýý
> > So...now what? York doesnýýýýýýýýt seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donýýýýýýýýt particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkýýýýýýýýs standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
> >
> > From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com<http://40btinternet.com>
> > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> > Loyaulte me Lie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for that Liz, I will pass on your comment, if you don't mind.  Nicola will be pleased.
Regards
Alison


________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 12:25
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Wow, that's a fantastic piece of work.

Liz

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 23:03
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Hi there
 
Please forgive me, I must have been having a 'numpty' moment, with regard to my cousin's website.  Too much time spent in the fifteenth century methinks!!!
 
Hope you have better luck with this; once again the picture on my wall of Middleham, is within her 'recent work'.   http://www.nicolaroseartist.com/
 
Kind regards

Alison

________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <mailto:ajhibbard%40gmail.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:09
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

Do you have a url for your cousin's website - you've given us what seems to
be her e-mail address since when I click on it, I get the "form" to write
an e-mail.

A J

On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thanks Liz, much appreciated.
>
> Not sure if you would be interested, but the picture of Middleham which
> hangs on my wall can be seen on my cousin's website mailto:nicola.rose%40zen.co.ukand it is under her 'recent work'.  It may be a little too dark and
> brooding for many peoples tastes, but it truly represents how the castle
> looked on a very dark, windswept April morning this year.  She did all the
> preparatory sketches at the castle, and the final picture took her 7 weeks
> to produce, as she uses a layering technique with her paints.  She also has
> a great interest in Richard, and knowing me the way she does, was able to
> depict the way I felt that day, due to all the controversy surrounding the
> final resting place for his mortal remains.
>
> Kind regards
> Alison
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <
> mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 16:49
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
>
>  Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms  Gregory could
> ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard at
> Middleham!.
>
> Liz
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no
> doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.
> You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many
> times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars
> locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth,
> and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being
> so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of
> course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard
> III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to
> so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would
> be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I
> am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by
> the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely
> knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I
> certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth.
> However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their
> own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is
> only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final
> resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on
> various web sites.
>
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester
> burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely
> hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet
> another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically
> the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with
> particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live
> in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all
> of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North'
> and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny
> Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were
> brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I
> have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and
> been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of
> Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a
> place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his
> father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with
> fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard,
> and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I
> love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.
> She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image
> measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy
> prose!
>
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many,
> many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his
> beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of
> Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July
> summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his
> wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to
> where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell
> that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land
> as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to
> the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most
> genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be
> laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away
> from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the
> happiest days of
> his short life.
>
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if
> at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and
> stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed
> through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were
> welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine
> the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and
> Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of
> sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good
> wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put
> their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their
> friend.  Then return to Leicester.
>
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only
> because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.
> Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so
> courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be
> proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the
> wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating
> Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only
> that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and
> we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically
> written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which
> is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he
> should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when
> I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to
> the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard
> and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in
> the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York
> then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever
> expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting
> that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
> the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
>
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be
> decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are
> already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the
> case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be
> upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets
> an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for
> whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation
> deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do
> not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with
> his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint?
> Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our
> king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured.
> I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door
> quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial
> review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hello again
 
Thanks for your comments.  I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak.  His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be.  Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if  during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them.  By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there.  Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!! 
 
The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner.  I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
 
You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions.  I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to?  Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch.  I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me.  It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.
 
You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'.  I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!

Regards once more

Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 13:34
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

No Alison I don't live in Leicestershire. Pamela is a member of this Forum. She may well post in the Leicester Mercury in fact I may have seen comments from her online. I think that I feel that you can't change history Richard was buried in Leicester for 500 years and I just feel that it is right that he should be reburied there.Pamela's comments on her visit to Leicester made me feel more comfortable about it. While I am not really happy with the money side of it at least he will be the centre of attention and his story more accessible to the public. In York, Westminster or Windsor there would be distractions. I love York indeed as one of my fellow Branch members said on a visit there it is like coming home. If Richard had lived and died of old age he probably would have been buried at Westminster or Windsor not York. Obviously we can't know that for certain, however, it is a possibility. --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison
Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote: > > Hello there. >   > I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!! >   > We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who
amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time.  > Kind regards again >   > Alison > > > ________________________________ > From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59 > Subject: Re: Alliance
Judicial Review > >   > > Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places. > > For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird. > > I am sure nobody
will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral. > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote: > > > > Thanks for the response Carole. > > I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.à You say you live a lot
nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.à I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts. > > à > > This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.à I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts,àare highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainlyàwould
not wish toàpresumeàmy own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.à As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic commentsàI have seen on various web sites.à > > à > > So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow meàwrite, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!... > > à > > I have held an interest in medieval history foràa long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.à I live inàYorkshire,
and am lucky enough to haveàvisited on several occasions,àall of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' andà'King of England'.à I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day,àto where many of the deadàwere brought, following that snowy PalmàSunday, when Edward IV won the day.ààI have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.à Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.à My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is > thought of with fond memories; its > > town, populace,àand castle were particularly wellàthought ofàby Richard, and there are plaques around the town to
commemorate his time there.à I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.à She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!àà > > à > > I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.à It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle,àbe it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you,àto sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the
steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest > days of > > his short life. > > à > > As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the sameàplace Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.à Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and
good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writingàfollowing the death of their King, their friend.àààThen return to Leicester. > > à > > Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.à Nothing is wrong with Leicester.à Bosworthà is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.à Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!à Please do not all
attack at once!!! > > à > > Hopeful kind regards! > > Alison > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: carole hughes <caroleugis@> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > à > > > > Hi Alison, > > àNo I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.à > > If there was any evidence that
Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him. > > > > Regards > > Carole > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > > > à > > Do you reside in Leicester Carole?à > > à > > Alison > > > > ________________________________ > > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent:
Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > à > > > > I àthink we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided àthat Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.à > > > > Carole > > > > ________________________________ > > From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > à > > Well I'm with you Sandra.à I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an
appropriate tomb and is honoured properly. > > > > Liz > > > > From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > à > > So...now what? York doesnââ¬â¢t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donââ¬â¢t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkââ¬â¢s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe
out... =^..^= > > > > From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com > > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em. > > Loyaulte me Lie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Just another tentative thought. Richard did not expect to die when he did or to be buried at Leicester, but might a will made on the eve of Bosworth have directed that his heart be buried in York, which he loved so much, and his body in Westminster or Windsor? Conventionally, with Anne, and most other monarchs of England? Or is that too outrageous a possibility? =^..^=


From: Alison Shiels
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:42 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


Hello again

Thanks for your comments. I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak. His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be. Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them. By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there. Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!!

The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner. I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.

You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions. I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to? Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch. I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me. It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.

You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'. I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!

Regards once more

Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 13:34
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



No Alison I don't live in Leicestershire. Pamela is a member of this Forum. She may well post in the Leicester Mercury in fact I may have seen comments from her online. I think that I feel that you can't change history Richard was buried in Leicester for 500 years and I just feel that it is right that he should be reburied there.Pamela's comments on her visit to Leicester made me feel more comfortable about it. While I am not really happy with the money side of it at least he will be the centre of attention and his story more accessible to the public. In York, Westminster or Windsor there would be distractions. I love York indeed as one of my fellow Branch members said on a visit there it is like coming home. If Richard had lived and died of old age he probably would have been buried at Westminster or Windsor not York. Obviously we can't know that for certain, however, it is a possibility. --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison
Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote: > > Hello there. >  > I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?  Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'? Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay? I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view! Maybe I am just an old romantic!! >  > We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who
amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God. I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. > Kind regards again >  > Alison > > > ________________________________ > From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59 > Subject: Re: Alliance
Judicial Review > > Â > > Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places. > > For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird. > > I am sure nobody
will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral. > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote: > > > > Thanks for the response Carole. > > I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.ÃÂ You say you live a lot
nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.ÃÂ I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts. > > ÃÂ > > This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.ÃÂ I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts,ÃÂ are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainlyÃÂ would
not wish toÃÂ presumeÃÂ my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.ÃÂ As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic commentsÃÂ I have seen on various web sites.ÃÂ > > ÃÂ > > So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow meÃÂ write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!... > > ÃÂ > > I have held an interest in medieval history forÃÂ a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.ÃÂ I live inÃÂ Yorkshire,
and am lucky enough to haveÃÂ visited on several occasions,ÃÂ all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' andÃÂ 'King of England'.ÃÂ I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day,ÃÂ to where many of the deadÃÂ were brought, following that snowy PalmÃÂ Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.ÃÂ ÃÂ I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.ÃÂ Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.ÃÂ My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is > thought of with fond memories; its > > town, populace,ÃÂ and castle were particularly wellÃÂ thought ofÃÂ by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to
commemorate his time there.ÃÂ I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.ÃÂ She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!ÃÂ ÃÂ > > ÃÂ > > I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.ÃÂ It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle,ÃÂ be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you,ÃÂ to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the
steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest > days of > > his short life. > > ÃÂ > > As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the sameÃÂ place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.ÃÂ Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and
good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writingÃÂ following the death of their King, their friend.ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ Then return to Leicester. > > ÃÂ > > Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.ÃÂ Nothing is wrong with Leicester.ÃÂ BosworthÃÂ is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.ÃÂ Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!ÃÂ Please do not all
attack at once!!! > > ÃÂ > > Hopeful kind regards! > > Alison > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: carole hughes <caroleugis@> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > ÃÂ > > > > Hi Alison, > > ÃÂ No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.ÃÂ > > If there was any evidence that
Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him. > > > > Regards > > Carole > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > > > ÃÂ > > Do you reside in Leicester Carole?ÃÂ > > ÃÂ > > Alison > > > > ________________________________ > > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent:
Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > ÃÂ > > > > I ÃÂ think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided ÃÂ that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.ÃÂ > > > > Carole > > > > ________________________________ > > From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > ÃÂ > > Well I'm with you Sandra.ÃÂ I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an
appropriate tomb and is honoured properly. > > > > Liz > > > > From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > à> > So...now what? York doesnââ¬â¢t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donââ¬â¢t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkââ¬â¢s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe
out... =^..^= > > > > From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com > > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em. > > Loyaulte me Lie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Hi Alison

You've twice now asked whether someone lives in Leicestershire with regard to this debate, as if that would lend an implicit bias.  I'm not sure why that's relevant - or, at least, any more relevant than asking if someone lives in Yorkshire.

Speaking personally, I live in Kent, was born in Leicestershire and have family in Leicestershire and Yorkshire.  My views have shifted between Leicester and York, but the one unassailable fact that makes me think Leicester is the most appropriate place is that you can't re-write history; not one line of it.  Like it or not (and, of course, we don't), the arc of Richard's story ends at Leicester and this is where he's lain - at the centre of a kingdom he was defending from foreign invasion - for over 500 years.  It's desperately sad, but none of it can be altered.  We can add a postscript by shifting him 100 miles northwards, but what does that really achieve beyond making *us* feel a little bit better?  And why should we be at all important in any of this?

We may talk about what Richard would have wanted but - leaving aside that we're only guessing - we can say that his place of burial would be the least of the things he would have changed about the events of 1485, had he been able.  The world has now transformed to such an extent that the concept of going "home" is rendered meaningless.  Nor does the "family wishes" argument hold any water for me.  The relevance of this diminishes when out of living memory and certainly after a hundred years or more have elapsed.  The Plantagenet Alliance are no more more *his* family than the million-plus other people who may have some distant genetic connection.

There's a powerful symbolism in Richard's death, burial and restoration - the real weight of history that still has power to engage and move people - that I think would only be weakened by de-contextualising him from its physical location and putting him in an ersatz medieval tomb in a real medieval building somewhere else.  Richard is more than just dry bones to send in a box up the M1.  It may be difficult to translate Hardy's poem about Drummer Hodge to a car park in modern-day Leicester but, oddly, it does come to mind:

They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined -- just as found...

Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge for ever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellations reign
His stars eternally.

It's a contentious subject and everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I don't wish to change anyone's mind on this, but I hope we can all agree that the *manner* of the re-interment is the most important thing once the wrangling about the where it is to take place is out of the way.

On a lighter note, I had to travel north over the weekend and popped into Bosworth for the Sunday of the anniversary commemoration.  Bosworth produces three beers named after the battle: a Richard III Ale, a Battle Ale and a Henry VII Ale.  The Richard III Ale had all sold out; there were only a couple of bottles of the Battle Ale left; but the Henry VII Ale, unwanted and unsold, was still there in vast quantities.

Jonathan




________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 0:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



 
Hello there.
 
I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
 
We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
Kind regards again
 
Alison


________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Just another tentative thought. Richard did not expect to die when he did or to be buried at Leicester, but might a will made on the eve of Bosworth have directed that his heart be buried in York, which he loved so much, and his body in Westminster or Windsor? Conventionally, with Anne, and most other monarchs of England? Or is that too outrageous a possibility? =^..^=


Not necessarily outrageous, but burying the heart in a different place was a fashion that came and went, and the Church's attitude to it varied from time to time as well; I'm not sure whether this was common practice in the 15th century. What was sometimes done in the 15th century was for a person to be buried in one church but also have a memorial in another. One variant of this was for brasses to depict all the children a couple had had, no matter where they actually lay. Elizabeth Lambert is shown on her parents' tomb in Hertfordshire, for instance, but she was almost certainly buried with her husband whose last known whereabouts were Shropshire/Staffs.
Marie




>
>
> From: Alison Shiels
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:42 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Hello again
>
> Thanks for your comments. I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak. His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be. Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them. By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there. Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!!
>
> The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner. I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
>
> You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions. I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to? Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch. I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me. It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.
>
> You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'. I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!
>
> Regards once more
>
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 13:34
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> No Alison I don't live in Leicestershire. Pamela is a member of this Forum. She may well post in the Leicester Mercury in fact I may have seen comments from her online. I think that I feel that you can't change history Richard was buried in Leicester for 500 years and I just feel that it is right that he should be reburied there.Pamela's comments on her visit to Leicester made me feel more comfortable about it. While I am not really happy with the money side of it at least he will be the centre of attention and his story more accessible to the public. In York, Westminster or Windsor there would be distractions. I love York indeed as one of my fellow Branch members said on a visit there it is like coming home. If Richard had lived and died of old age he probably would have been buried at Westminster or Windsor not York. Obviously we can't know that for certain, however, it is a possibility. --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison
> Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote: > > Hello there. >  > I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?  Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'? Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay? I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view! Maybe I am just an old romantic!! >  > We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who
> amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God. I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. > Kind regards again >  > Alison > > > ________________________________ > From: ricard1an <maryfriend@> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59 > Subject: Re: Alliance
> Judicial Review > > Â > > Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places. > > For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird. > > I am sure nobody
> will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral. > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote: > > > > Thanks for the response Carole. > > I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest. You say you live a lot
> nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral. I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts. > >  > > This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery. I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would
> not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here. As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. > >  > > So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!... > >  > > I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III. I live in Yorkshire,
> and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'. I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward. Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father. My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is > thought of with fond memories; its > > town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to
> commemorate his time there. I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist. She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  > >  > > I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire. It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the
> steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest > days of > > his short life. > >  > > As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries. Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and
> good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester. > >  > > Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter. Nothing is wrong with Leicester. Bosworth is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically. Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!! Please do not all
> attack at once!!! > >  > > Hopeful kind regards! > > Alison > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: carole hughes <caroleugis@> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > >  > > > > Hi Alison, > >  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. > > If there was any evidence that
> Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him. > > > > Regards > > Carole > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > > >  > > Do you reside in Leicester Carole? > >  > > Alison > > > > ________________________________ > > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent:
> Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > >  > > > > I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. > > > > Carole > > > > ________________________________ > > From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > >  > > Well I'm with you Sandra. I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an
> appropriate tomb and is honoured properly. > > > > Liz > > > > From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > >  > > So...now what? York doesn’t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I don’t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York’s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe
> out... =^..^= > > > > From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com > > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em. > > Loyaulte me Lie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Alison wrote
>"Thanks for your comments.  I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak.  His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be." 


I think we can put it more stronger than 'probably', ie he certainly would have made a will before going into battle. Making a will was considered a religious duty - you know, leaving your affairs in order, fulfilling your obligations, before passing on. Like King Edward and many others, he would have made a will before the French campaign in 1475 (indeed they both probably made one before returning to England in 1471), and he would certainly have made another before Bosworth. We have quite a few of these pre-battle wills surviving. Northumberland's last will, for instance, is dated to July 1485 and just has a short codicil written before he died. Sir William Berkeley's surviving will begins with the one he made in 1475, then the pre-Bosworth revision, then the last revision written in October 1485 as he lay dying, probably from the sweating sickness. Edward IV's will, famously, consisted of the one he made in 1475 with the addition of a deathbed codicil.
Marie

Of course not. 



Liz

From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 16:33
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Thanks for that Liz, I will pass on your comment, if you don't mind.  Nicola will be pleased.
Regards
Alison


________________________________
From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 12:25
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Wow, that's a fantastic piece of work.

Liz

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 23:03
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Hi there
 
Please forgive me, I must have been having a 'numpty' moment, with regard to my cousin's website.  Too much time spent in the fifteenth century methinks!!!
 
Hope you have better luck with this; once again the picture on my wall of Middleham, is within her 'recent work'.   http://www.nicolaroseartist.com/
 
Kind regards

Alison

________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <mailto:ajhibbard%40gmail.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:09
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

Do you have a url for your cousin's website - you've given us what seems to
be her e-mail address since when I click on it, I get the "form" to write
an e-mail.

A J

On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thanks Liz, much appreciated.
>
> Not sure if you would be interested, but the picture of Middleham which
> hangs on my wall can be seen on my cousin's website mailto:nicola.rose%40zen.co.ukand it is under her 'recent work'.  It may be a little too dark and
> brooding for many peoples tastes, but it truly represents how the castle
> looked on a very dark, windswept April morning this year.  She did all the
> preparatory sketches at the castle, and the final picture took her 7 weeks
> to produce, as she uses a layering technique with her paints.  She also has
> a great interest in Richard, and knowing me the way she does, was able to
> depict the way I felt that day, due to all the controversy surrounding the
> final resting place for his mortal remains.
>
> Kind regards
> Alison
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <
> mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 16:49
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
>
>  Alison, your prose is far, far better than anything Ms  Gregory could
> ever produce and you've now converted me to the idea of burying Richard at
> Middleham!.
>
> Liz
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:01
>
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no
> doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.
> You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many
> times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars
> locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth,
> and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being
> so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of
> course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard
> III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to
> so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would
> be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I
> am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by
> the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely
> knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I
> certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth.
> However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their
> own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is
> only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final
> resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on
> various web sites.
>
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester
> burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely
> hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet
> another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically
> the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with
> particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live
> in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all
> of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North'
> and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny
> Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were
> brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I
> have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and
> been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of
> Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a
> place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his
> father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is thought of with
> fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard,
> and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I
> love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.
> She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image
> measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy
> prose!
>
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many,
> many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his
> beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of
> Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July
> summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his
> wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to
> where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell
> that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land
> as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to
> the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most
> genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be
> laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away
> from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the
> happiest days of
> his short life.
>
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if
> at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and
> stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed
> through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were
> welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine
> the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and
> Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of
> sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good
> wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put
> their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their
> friend.  Then return to Leicester.
>
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only
> because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.
> Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so
> courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be
> proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the
> wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating
> Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only
> that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and
> we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically
> written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which
> is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he
> should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when
> I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to
> the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard
> and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in
> the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York
> then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever
> expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting
> that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near
> the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole?
>
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be
> decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are
> already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the
> case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be
> upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets
> an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> So...now what? York doesn't seem interested, Leicester very much is, for
> whatever reason. I don't particularly want to see this wide consultation
> deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do
> not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with
> his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood York's standpoint?
> Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our
> king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured.
> I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door
> quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial
> review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hello there
 
Well, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea to me.  I would have been happy with that!!
 
Regards
Alison


________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 9:53
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Just another tentative thought. Richard did not expect to die when he did or to be buried at Leicester, but might a will made on the eve of Bosworth have directed that his heart be buried in York, which he loved so much, and his body in Westminster or Windsor? Conventionally, with Anne, and most other monarchs of England? Or is that too outrageous a possibility? =^..^=

From: Alison Shiels
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:42 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

Hello again

Thanks for your comments. I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak. His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be. Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them. By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there. Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!!

The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner. I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.

You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions. I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to? Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch. I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me. It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.

You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'. I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!

Regards once more

Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 13:34
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

No Alison I don't live in Leicestershire. Pamela is a member of this Forum. She may well post in the Leicester Mercury in fact I may have seen comments from her online. I think that I feel that you can't change history Richard was buried in Leicester for 500 years and I just feel that it is right that he should be reburied there.Pamela's comments on her visit to Leicester made me feel more comfortable about it. While I am not really happy with the money side of it at least he will be the centre of attention and his story more accessible to the public. In York, Westminster or Windsor there would be distractions. I love York indeed as one of my fellow Branch members said on a visit there it is like coming home. If Richard had lived and died of old age he probably would have been buried at Westminster or Windsor not York. Obviously we can't know that for certain, however, it is a possibility. --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison
Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote: > > Hello there. >  > I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?  Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'? Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay? I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view! Maybe I am just an old romantic!! >  > We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who
amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God. I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. > Kind regards again >  > Alison > > > ________________________________ > From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59 > Subject: Re: Alliance
Judicial Review > > Â > > Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places. > > For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird. > > I am sure nobody
will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral. > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote: > > > > Thanks for the response Carole. > > I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.ÃÂ You say you live a lot
nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.ÃÂ I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts. > > ÃÂ > > This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.ÃÂ I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts,ÃÂ are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainlyÃÂ would
not wish toÃÂ presumeÃÂ my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.ÃÂ As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic commentsÃÂ I have seen on various web sites.ÃÂ > > ÃÂ > > So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow meÃÂ write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!... > > ÃÂ > > I have held an interest in medieval history forÃÂ a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.ÃÂ I live inÃÂ Yorkshire,
and am lucky enough to haveÃÂ visited on several occasions,ÃÂ all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' andÃÂ 'King of England'.ÃÂ I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day,ÃÂ to where many of the deadÃÂ were brought, following that snowy PalmÃÂ Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.ÃÂ ÃÂ I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.ÃÂ Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.ÃÂ My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is > thought of with fond memories; its > > town, populace,ÃÂ and castle were particularly wellÃÂ thought ofÃÂ by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to
commemorate his time there.ÃÂ I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.ÃÂ She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!ÃÂ ÃÂ > > ÃÂ > > I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.ÃÂ It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle,ÃÂ be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you,ÃÂ to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the
steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest > days of > > his short life. > > ÃÂ > > As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the sameÃÂ place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.ÃÂ Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and
good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writingÃÂ following the death of their King, their friend.ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ Then return to Leicester. > > ÃÂ > > Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.ÃÂ Nothing is wrong with Leicester.ÃÂ BosworthÃÂ is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.ÃÂ Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!ÃÂ Please do not all
attack at once!!! > > ÃÂ > > Hopeful kind regards! > > Alison > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: carole hughes <caroleugis@> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > ÃÂ > > > > Hi Alison, > > ÃÂ No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard.ÃÂ > > If there was any evidence that
Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him. > > > > Regards > > Carole > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > > > ÃÂ > > Do you reside in Leicester Carole?ÃÂ > > ÃÂ > > Alison > > > > ________________________________ > > From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent:
Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > ÃÂ > > > > I ÃÂ think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided ÃÂ that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it.ÃÂ > > > > Carole > > > > ________________________________ > > From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > ÃÂ > > Well I'm with you Sandra.ÃÂ I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an
appropriate tomb and is honoured properly. > > > > Liz > > > > From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22 > > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > à> > So...now what? York doesnââ¬â¢t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donââ¬â¢t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkââ¬â¢s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe
out... =^..^= > > > > From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com > > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Alliance Judicial Review > > > > Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em. > > Loyaulte me Lie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Ah Jonathan; you have me duly admonished!!
 
Regards
Alison....
 
Afterthought:
PS: Noting the fact that we cannot re-write history, I do take on board your comments, and acknowledge that Richard's story reaches its historical finale in Leicester.  You make many germane points, which, taken in the context you have mentioned, certainly do highlight the case for a re-burial near to where his remains were found.  As you allude, we are entitled to our opinion just as it is our democratic right to vote. 
 
On a final note, and not wishing to exploit again my questions to others as to their geographical whereabouts, I see that you were born in Leicestershire, but do not particularly hold any fealty to that place, judging by your comments as to the world having changed so much that the sentiment of 'going home' is rendered 'meaningless'.  I do beg to differ slightly, as I honestly believe that most people, be it now, or in Richard's time, would actually class 'home' as the place wherein they forged the part of their lives, which either did, or does hold 'meaning' for them.  This fact is unequivocally and inherently borne out by my own history in that I live in Yorkshire -  'my home', yet I was actually born, yes here it is.... a LANCASTRIAN!!!!  So how does that one work out then?!!!!


________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 10:49
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison

You've twice now asked whether someone lives in Leicestershire with regard to this debate, as if that would lend an implicit bias.  I'm not sure why that's relevant - or, at least, any more relevant than asking if someone lives in Yorkshire.

Speaking personally, I live in Kent, was born in Leicestershire and have family in Leicestershire and Yorkshire.  My views have shifted between Leicester and York, but the one unassailable fact that makes me think Leicester is the most appropriate place is that you can't re-write history; not one line of it.  Like it or not (and, of course, we don't), the arc of Richard's story ends at Leicester and this is where he's lain - at the centre of a kingdom he was defending from foreign invasion - for over 500 years.  It's desperately sad, but none of it can be altered.  We can add a postscript by shifting him 100 miles northwards, but what does that really achieve beyond making *us* feel a little bit better?  And why should we be at all important in any of this?

We may talk about what Richard would have wanted but - leaving aside that we're only guessing - we can say that his place of burial would be the least of the things he would have changed about the events of 1485, had he been able.  The world has now transformed to such an extent that the concept of going "home" is rendered meaningless.  Nor does the "family wishes" argument hold any water for me.  The relevance of this diminishes when out of living memory and certainly after a hundred years or more have elapsed.  The Plantagenet Alliance are no more more *his* family than the million-plus other people who may have some distant genetic connection.

There's a powerful symbolism in Richard's death, burial and restoration - the real weight of history that still has power to engage and move people - that I think would only be weakened by de-contextualising him from its physical location and putting him in an ersatz medieval tomb in a real medieval building somewhere else.  Richard is more than just dry bones to send in a box up the M1.  It may be difficult to translate Hardy's poem about Drummer Hodge to a car park in modern-day Leicester but, oddly, it does come to mind:

They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined -- just as found...

Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge for ever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellations reign
His stars eternally.

It's a contentious subject and everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I don't wish to change anyone's mind on this, but I hope we can all agree that the *manner* of the re-interment is the most important thing once the wrangling about the where it is to take place is out of the way.

On a lighter note, I had to travel north over the weekend and popped into Bosworth for the Sunday of the anniversary commemoration.  Bosworth produces three beers named after the battle: a Richard III Ale, a Battle Ale and a Henry VII Ale.  The Richard III Ale had all sold out; there were only a couple of bottles of the Battle Ale left; but the Henry VII Ale, unwanted and unsold, was still there in vast quantities.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 0:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


 
Hello there.
 
I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
 
We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
Kind regards again
 
Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Jonathan,
I know this wasn't addressed to me but I have to intervene on one point. I don't believe familial relevance diminishes when out of living memory. Touch the will that your ancestor wrote in 1546 and believe me it has the power of a will written in 1986. Whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, there is a bond which comes not just from genetics but common heritage; they are/were part of the fabric of our being. They might not be our direct ancestors, but somewhere in there are their traits, beit their colouring, their intelligence, their ambitions, their flaws.
Where I am with you is on the ersatz medieval tomb and on the fact that the choice of location will in the end make little difference, so long as it is not neglected, which is to say the least, unlikely.
As for poems, though I like Drummer Hodge, I would have hoped that there's a bit of room for my fellow Coventrian's words
 'What will remain of us is love'
If that remains then it doesn't really matter where they put your bones.  H.


________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 10:49
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison

You've twice now asked whether someone lives in Leicestershire with regard to this debate, as if that would lend an implicit bias.  I'm not sure why that's relevant - or, at least, any more relevant than asking if someone lives in Yorkshire.

Speaking personally, I live in Kent, was born in Leicestershire and have family in Leicestershire and Yorkshire.  My views have shifted between Leicester and York, but the one unassailable fact that makes me think Leicester is the most appropriate place is that you can't re-write history; not one line of it.  Like it or not (and, of course, we don't), the arc of Richard's story ends at Leicester and this is where he's lain - at the centre of a kingdom he was defending from foreign invasion - for over 500 years.  It's desperately sad, but none of it can be altered.  We can add a postscript by shifting him 100 miles northwards, but what does that really achieve beyond making *us* feel a little bit better?  And why should we be at all important in any of this?

We may talk about what Richard would have wanted but - leaving aside that we're only guessing - we can say that his place of burial would be the least of the things he would have changed about the events of 1485, had he been able.  The world has now transformed to such an extent that the concept of going "home" is rendered meaningless.  Nor does the "family wishes" argument hold any water for me.  The relevance of this diminishes when out of living memory and certainly after a hundred years or more have elapsed.  The Plantagenet Alliance are no more more *his* family than the million-plus other people who may have some distant genetic connection.

There's a powerful symbolism in Richard's death, burial and restoration - the real weight of history that still has power to engage and move people - that I think would only be weakened by de-contextualising him from its physical location and putting him in an ersatz medieval tomb in a real medieval building somewhere else.  Richard is more than just dry bones to send in a box up the M1.  It may be difficult to translate Hardy's poem about Drummer Hodge to a car park in modern-day Leicester but, oddly, it does come to mind:

They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined -- just as found...

Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge for ever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellations reign
His stars eternally.

It's a contentious subject and everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I don't wish to change anyone's mind on this, but I hope we can all agree that the *manner* of the re-interment is the most important thing once the wrangling about the where it is to take place is out of the way.

On a lighter note, I had to travel north over the weekend and popped into Bosworth for the Sunday of the anniversary commemoration.  Bosworth produces three beers named after the battle: a Richard III Ale, a Battle Ale and a Henry VII Ale.  The Richard III Ale had all sold out; there were only a couple of bottles of the Battle Ale left; but the Henry VII Ale, unwanted and unsold, was still there in vast quantities.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 0:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


 
Hello there.
 
I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
 
We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
Kind regards again
 
Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi again Alison


> you have me duly admonished!!

Not the intention at all - in fact, what you wrote was so thought provoking that it helped to crystallise my own views.  :-)


Re the "going home" thing, I was talking specifically about the world having changed so much that there's little anywhere that someone born over 500 years ago would associate with home, or not see as a gross violation of that home - except, perhaps, the rare areas of untouched countryside.  And for Richard, you really have to ask what was "home".  Middleham, Fotheringhay, or possibly some other place, the importance of which is now lost to us...?  It's an impossible question because the answer depends so much on subjective rationalisation.  Obviously, Richard wouldn't have chosen Leicester, just as he wouldn't havechosen the final chapters of life's story.  But, if it were not for those chapters, he wouldn't be such a profoundly resonant figure.  It's deeply paradoxical and reminds me of Mary Stuart's motto, "In my end is my beginning".  The Richard we know is defined by an indissoluble connection with the very heart of his kingdom, and I think we
tamper with that at our peril.


As for Leicestershire, I have *memories* of it being home, but it's not really what I'd call home - probably because it now has difficult associations for me, as a result of my father being killed by a drunk driver when he was walking his dog in 2004 and my mother subsequently succumbing to dementia.  So "home" is Beckenham, but I also tend to feel more "at home" the further north I get, particularly North Yorkshire and Northumberland.

Oddly enough, I know a couple of Yorkist Lancastrians, but I've never encountered the opposite phenomenon!

Cheers

Jonathan



________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 15:26
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



 
Ah Jonathan; you have me duly admonished!!
 
Regards
Alison....
 
Afterthought:
PS: Noting the fact that we cannot re-write history, I do take on board your comments, and acknowledge that Richard's story reaches its historical finale in Leicester.  You make many germane points, which, taken in the context you have mentioned, certainly do highlight the case for a re-burial near to where his remains were found.  As you allude, we are entitled to our opinion just as it is our democratic right to vote. 
 
On a final note, and not wishing to exploit again my questions to others as to their geographical whereabouts, I see that you were born in Leicestershire, but do not particularly hold any fealty to that place, judging by your comments as to the world having changed so much that the sentiment of 'going home' is rendered 'meaningless'.  I do beg to differ slightly, as I honestly believe that most people, be it now, or in Richard's time, would actually class 'home' as the place wherein they forged the part of their lives, which either did, or does hold 'meaning' for them.  This fact is unequivocally and inherently borne out by my own history in that I live in Yorkshire -  'my home', yet I was actually born, yes here it is.... a LANCASTRIAN!!!!  So how does that one work out then?!!!!


________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 10:49
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison

You've twice now asked whether someone lives in Leicestershire with regard to this debate, as if that would lend an implicit bias.  I'm not sure why that's relevant - or, at least, any more relevant than asking if someone lives in Yorkshire.

Speaking personally, I live in Kent, was born in Leicestershire and have family in Leicestershire and Yorkshire.  My views have shifted between Leicester and York, but the one unassailable fact that makes me think Leicester is the most appropriate place is that you can't re-write history; not one line of it.  Like it or not (and, of course, we don't), the arc of Richard's story ends at Leicester and this is where he's lain - at the centre of a kingdom he was defending from foreign invasion - for over 500 years.  It's desperately sad, but none of it can be altered.  We can add a postscript by shifting him 100 miles northwards, but what does that really achieve beyond making *us* feel a little bit better?  And why should we be at all important in any of this?

We may talk about what Richard would have wanted but - leaving aside that we're only guessing - we can say that his place of burial would be the least of the things he would have changed about the events of 1485, had he been able.  The world has now transformed to such an extent that the concept of going "home" is rendered meaningless.  Nor does the "family wishes" argument hold any water for me.  The relevance of this diminishes when out of living memory and certainly after a hundred years or more have elapsed.  The Plantagenet Alliance are no more more *his* family than the million-plus other people who may have some distant genetic connection.

There's a powerful symbolism in Richard's death, burial and restoration - the real weight of history that still has power to engage and move people - that I think would only be weakened by de-contextualising him from its physical location and putting him in an ersatz medieval tomb in a real medieval building somewhere else.  Richard is more than just dry bones to send in a box up the M1.  It may be difficult to translate Hardy's poem about Drummer Hodge to a car park in modern-day Leicester but, oddly, it does come to mind:

They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined -- just as found...

Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge for ever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellations reign
His stars eternally.

It's a contentious subject and everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I don't wish to change anyone's mind on this, but I hope we can all agree that the *manner* of the re-interment is the most important thing once the wrangling about the where it is to take place is out of the way.

On a lighter note, I had to travel north over the weekend and popped into Bosworth for the Sunday of the anniversary commemoration.  Bosworth produces three beers named after the battle: a Richard III Ale, a Battle Ale and a Henry VII Ale.  The Richard III Ale had all sold out; there were only a couple of bottles of the Battle Ale left; but the Henry VII Ale, unwanted and unsold, was still there in vast quantities.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 0:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Hello there.
 
I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
 
We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
Kind regards again
 
Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I think (and your mileage certainly varies):

1. Richard's remains "belong" to his blood relations, even if those relations are 500+ years down the line. If this were anyone else's bones, the law would dictate that his family gets to decide where to bury him.

2. The Tydder dictated what happened to Richard's body. The Tydder definitely isn't family, and I doubt Richard would be contented to remain *anywhere* the Tydder consigned him to be -- including a Tudor cathedral.

3. Richard spent more than half of his life in Yorkshire. By all of the evidence, he was happy their. If he can't go home to Middleham, York seems close enough. They liked him, and he liked them. He spent three weeks in York on his progress, the city welcomed him with open arms. Even before that, they gave their duke fish and wine and other goodies, and hassled the Tydder for years out of regard for him. He was *their* king.

4. Surely it's enough for Leicester to have the tourist draw of Bosworth, the Grey Friars site, a $4 million museum? Is the city truly so greedy that they must have possession of his bones a la the medieval cathedrals that claimed possession of saints' relics?

In the end, beyond the king and all the associated drama, for me it's a matter of, "The man is the Alliance's uncle, isn't he?"

~Weds


--- In , Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Hello again
>  
> Thanks for your comments.  I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak.  His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be.  Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if  during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them.  By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there.  Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!! 
>  
> The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner.  I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
>  
> You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions.  I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to?  Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch.  I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me.  It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.
>  
> You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'.  I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!
>
> Regards once more
>
> Alison
>
>

Hi Hilary

You're welcome to intervene - not least because my reply was also drawing on a couple of things that you said.  I don't mean to utterly disregard familial resonance but (a) by its very nature it's a one-way street and therefore something we do for *us* and (b) I'm not sure its entirely relevant with regard to the Plantagenet Alliance.  I don't want to dwell on this because I don't want to impugn their motives (I've already acknowledged I'm uncomfortable with the corporate gloss of their campaign), but their connection seems to be rather circuitous and they're just fifteen among many, many collateral descendants.  But actually, to be fair to them, I gather they've recently said that all they want is for the question to be considered openly and independently and they'll be happy with whatever is decided.

Agree entirely with your last sentiments.  There's always a bit of room for Larkin.

Jonathan




________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 16:05
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



 
Hi Jonathan,
I know this wasn't addressed to me but I have to intervene on one point. I don't believe familial relevance diminishes when out of living memory. Touch the will that your ancestor wrote in 1546 and believe me it has the power of a will written in 1986. Whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, there is a bond which comes not just from genetics but common heritage; they are/were part of the fabric of our being. They might not be our direct ancestors, but somewhere in there are their traits, beit their colouring, their intelligence, their ambitions, their flaws.
Where I am with you is on the ersatz medieval tomb and on the fact that the choice of location will in the end make little difference, so long as it is not neglected, which is to say the least, unlikely.
As for poems, though I like Drummer Hodge, I would have hoped that there's a bit of room for my fellow Coventrian's words
 'What will remain of us is love'
If that remains then it doesn't really matter where they put your bones.  H.


________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 10:49
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison

You've twice now asked whether someone lives in Leicestershire with regard to this debate, as if that would lend an implicit bias.  I'm not sure why that's relevant - or, at least, any more relevant than asking if someone lives in Yorkshire.

Speaking personally, I live in Kent, was born in Leicestershire and have family in Leicestershire and Yorkshire.  My views have shifted between Leicester and York, but the one unassailable fact that makes me think Leicester is the most appropriate place is that you can't re-write history; not one line of it.  Like it or not (and, of course, we don't), the arc of Richard's story ends at Leicester and this is where he's lain - at the centre of a kingdom he was defending from foreign invasion - for over 500 years.  It's desperately sad, but none of it can be altered.  We can add a postscript by shifting him 100 miles northwards, but what does that really achieve beyond making *us* feel a little bit better?  And why should we be at all important in any of this?

We may talk about what Richard would have wanted but - leaving aside that we're only guessing - we can say that his place of burial would be the least of the things he would have changed about the events of 1485, had he been able.  The world has now transformed to such an extent that the concept of going "home" is rendered meaningless.  Nor does the "family wishes" argument hold any water for me.  The relevance of this diminishes when out of living memory and certainly after a hundred years or more have elapsed.  The Plantagenet Alliance are no more more *his* family than the million-plus other people who may have some distant genetic connection.

There's a powerful symbolism in Richard's death, burial and restoration - the real weight of history that still has power to engage and move people - that I think would only be weakened by de-contextualising him from its physical location and putting him in an ersatz medieval tomb in a real medieval building somewhere else.  Richard is more than just dry bones to send in a box up the M1.  It may be difficult to translate Hardy's poem about Drummer Hodge to a car park in modern-day Leicester but, oddly, it does come to mind:

They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined -- just as found...

Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge for ever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellations reign
His stars eternally.

It's a contentious subject and everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I don't wish to change anyone's mind on this, but I hope we can all agree that the *manner* of the re-interment is the most important thing once the wrangling about the where it is to take place is out of the way.

On a lighter note, I had to travel north over the weekend and popped into Bosworth for the Sunday of the anniversary commemoration.  Bosworth produces three beers named after the battle: a Richard III Ale, a Battle Ale and a Henry VII Ale.  The Richard III Ale had all sold out; there were only a couple of bottles of the Battle Ale left; but the Henry VII Ale, unwanted and unsold, was still there in vast quantities.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 0:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Hello there.
 
I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
 
We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
Kind regards again
 
Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Apologies if this is (or becomes) a resend).  I sent the original 30 mins ago, it hasn't appeared and it's since been leapfrogged by a later message!

Jonathan


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 16:36
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



Hi again Alison


> you have me duly admonished!!

Not the intention at all - in fact, what you wrote was so thought provoking that it helped to crystallise my own views.  :-)


Re the "going home" thing, I was talking specifically about the world having changed so much that there's little anywhere that someone born over 500 years ago would associate with home, or not see as a gross violation of that home - except, perhaps, the rare areas of untouched countryside.  And for Richard, you really have to ask what was "home".  Middleham, Fotheringhay, or possibly some other place, the importance of which is now lost to us...?  It's an impossible question because the answer depends so much on subjective rationalisation.  Obviously, Richard wouldn't have chosen Leicester, just as he wouldn't have chosen the final chapters of life's story.  But, if it were not for those chapters, he wouldn't be such a profoundly resonant figure.  It's deeply paradoxical and reminds me of Mary Stuart's motto, "In my end is my beginning".  The Richard we know is defined by an indissoluble connection with the very heart of his kingdom, and I think
we tamper with that at our peril.


As for Leicestershire, I have *memories* of it being home, but it's not really what I'd call home - probably because it now has difficult associations for me, as a result of my father being killed by a drunk driver when he was walking his dog in 2004 and my mother subsequently succumbing to dementia.  So "home" is Beckenham, but I also tend to feel more "at home" the further north I get, particularly North Yorkshire and Northumberland.

Oddly enough, I know a couple of Yorkist Lancastrians, but I've never encountered the opposite phenomenon!

Cheers

Jonathan



________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 15:26
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review



 
Ah Jonathan; you have me duly admonished!!
 
Regards
Alison....
 
Afterthought:
PS: Noting the fact that we cannot re-write history, I do take on board your comments, and acknowledge that Richard's story reaches its historical finale in Leicester.  You make many germane points, which, taken in the context you have mentioned, certainly do highlight the case for a re-burial near to where his remains were found.  As you allude, we are entitled to our opinion just as it is our democratic right to vote. 
 
On a final note, and not wishing to exploit again my questions to others as to their geographical whereabouts, I see that you were born in Leicestershire, but do not particularly hold any fealty to that place, judging by your comments as to the world having changed so much that the sentiment of 'going home' is rendered 'meaningless'.  I do beg to differ slightly, as I honestly believe that most people, be it now, or in Richard's time, would actually class 'home' as the place wherein they forged the part of their lives, which either did, or does hold 'meaning' for them.  This fact is unequivocally and inherently borne out by my own history in that I live in Yorkshire -  'my home', yet I was actually born, yes here it is.... a LANCASTRIAN!!!!  So how does that one work out then?!!!!


________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 10:49
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison

You've twice now asked whether someone lives in Leicestershire with regard to this debate, as if that would lend an implicit bias.  I'm not sure why that's relevant - or, at least, any more relevant than asking if someone lives in Yorkshire.

Speaking personally, I live in Kent, was born in Leicestershire and have family in Leicestershire and Yorkshire.  My views have shifted between Leicester and York, but the one unassailable fact that makes me think Leicester is the most appropriate place is that you can't re-write history; not one line of it.  Like it or not (and, of course, we don't), the arc of Richard's story ends at Leicester and this is where he's lain - at the centre of a kingdom he was defending from foreign invasion - for over 500 years.  It's desperately sad, but none of it can be altered.  We can add a postscript by shifting him 100 miles northwards, but what does that really achieve beyond making *us* feel a little bit better?  And why should we be at all important in any of this?

We may talk about what Richard would have wanted but - leaving aside that we're only guessing - we can say that his place of burial would be the least of the things he would have changed about the events of 1485, had he been able.  The world has now transformed to such an extent that the concept of going "home" is rendered meaningless.  Nor does the "family wishes" argument hold any water for me.  The relevance of this diminishes when out of living memory and certainly after a hundred years or more have elapsed.  The Plantagenet Alliance are no more more *his* family than the million-plus other people who may have some distant genetic connection.

There's a powerful symbolism in Richard's death, burial and restoration - the real weight of history that still has power to engage and move people - that I think would only be weakened by de-contextualising him from its physical location and putting him in an ersatz medieval tomb in a real medieval building somewhere else.  Richard is more than just dry bones to send in a box up the M1.  It may be difficult to translate Hardy's poem about Drummer Hodge to a car park in modern-day Leicester but, oddly, it does come to mind:

They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined -- just as found...

Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge for ever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellations reign
His stars eternally.

It's a contentious subject and everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I don't wish to change anyone's mind on this, but I hope we can all agree that the *manner* of the re-interment is the most important thing once the wrangling about the where it is to take place is out of the way.

On a lighter note, I had to travel north over the weekend and popped into Bosworth for the Sunday of the anniversary commemoration.  Bosworth produces three beers named after the battle: a Richard III Ale, a Battle Ale and a Henry VII Ale.  The Richard III Ale had all sold out; there were only a couple of bottles of the Battle Ale left; but the Henry VII Ale, unwanted and unsold, was still there in vast quantities.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 0:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Hello there.
 
I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
 
We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
Kind regards again
 
Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his
father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent
the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

One almost contemporary example of heart / body in separate burials is that of Anne of Brittany - a key figure of the late 15th / early 16th century. She was buried in Saint Denis at the mausoleum of the kings and queens of France, but willed that her heart should be returned to her native soil.

Unfortunately, modern politics has severed her head (in Nantes) from the region of Brittany by allocating the departement of Loire-Atlantique away from modern Brittany. There is currently a petition to return both.

David

Hi Jonathan
 
Glad to see we have mostly common ground then.  I would not have wished to have created an issue for you with regard to your early years; please accept my apologies.
 
Always happy to be a 'phenomenon'.  I have unfortunately been deemed by my blessed aged uncle, who is also Lancastrian by birth, but who resides in Scarborough, and to whom I never dare really tell of my 'turn of the coat', and whose surname is Rose - a proper 'Tudor Rose' Aaaaaargh  NEVER!!!!
 
Regards
Alison
 


________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...>
To: Richard III Society Forum <>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 17:03
Subject: Fw: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Apologies if this is (or becomes) a resend).  I sent the original 30 mins ago, it hasn't appeared and it's since been leapfrogged by a later message!

Jonathan

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Jonathan Evans <mailto:jmcevans98%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 16:36
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


Hi again Alison

> you have me duly admonished!!

Not the intention at all - in fact, what you wrote was so thought provoking that it helped to crystallise my own views.  :-)

Re the "going home" thing, I was talking specifically about the world having changed so much that there's little anywhere that someone born over 500 years ago would associate with home, or not see as a gross violation of that home - except, perhaps, the rare areas of untouched countryside.  And for Richard, you really have to ask what was "home".  Middleham, Fotheringhay, or possibly some other place, the importance of which is now lost to us...?  It's an impossible question because the answer depends so much on subjective rationalisation.  Obviously, Richard wouldn't have chosen Leicester, just as he wouldn't have chosen the final chapters of life's story.  But, if it were not for those chapters, he wouldn't be such a profoundly resonant figure.  It's deeply paradoxical and reminds me of Mary Stuart's motto, "In my end is my beginning".  The Richard we know is defined by an indissoluble connection with the very heart of his kingdom, and I think
we tamper with that at our peril.

As for Leicestershire, I have *memories* of it being home, but it's not really what I'd call home - probably because it now has difficult associations for me, as a result of my father being killed by a drunk driver when he was walking his dog in 2004 and my mother subsequently succumbing to dementia.  So "home" is Beckenham, but I also tend to feel more "at home" the further north I get, particularly North Yorkshire and Northumberland.

Oddly enough, I know a couple of Yorkist Lancastrians, but I've never encountered the opposite phenomenon!

Cheers

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 15:26
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


 
Ah Jonathan; you have me duly admonished!!
 
Regards
Alison....
 
Afterthought:
PS: Noting the fact that we cannot re-write history, I do take on board your comments, and acknowledge that Richard's story reaches its historical finale in Leicester.  You make many germane points, which, taken in the context you have mentioned, certainly do highlight the case for a re-burial near to where his remains were found.  As you allude, we are entitled to our opinion just as it is our democratic right to vote. 
 
On a final note, and not wishing to exploit again my questions to others as to their geographical whereabouts, I see that you were born in Leicestershire, but do not particularly hold any fealty to that place, judging by your comments as to the world having changed so much that the sentiment of 'going home' is rendered 'meaningless'.  I do beg to differ slightly, as I honestly believe that most people, be it now, or in Richard's time, would actually class 'home' as the place wherein they forged the part of their lives, which either did, or does hold 'meaning' for them.  This fact is unequivocally and inherently borne out by my own history in that I live in Yorkshire -  'my home', yet I was actually born, yes here it is.... a LANCASTRIAN!!!!  So how does that one work out then?!!!!

________________________________
From: Jonathan Evans <mailto:jmcevans98%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 10:49
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Hi Alison

You've twice now asked whether someone lives in Leicestershire with regard to this debate, as if that would lend an implicit bias.  I'm not sure why that's relevant - or, at least, any more relevant than asking if someone lives in Yorkshire.

Speaking personally, I live in Kent, was born in Leicestershire and have family in Leicestershire and Yorkshire.  My views have shifted between Leicester and York, but the one unassailable fact that makes me think Leicester is the most appropriate place is that you can't re-write history; not one line of it.  Like it or not (and, of course, we don't), the arc of Richard's story ends at Leicester and this is where he's lain - at the centre of a kingdom he was defending from foreign invasion - for over 500 years.  It's desperately sad, but none of it can be altered.  We can add a postscript by shifting him 100 miles northwards, but what does that really achieve beyond making *us* feel a little bit better?  And why should we be at all important in any of this?

We may talk about what Richard would have wanted but - leaving aside that we're only guessing - we can say that his place of burial would be the least of the things he would have changed about the events of 1485, had he been able.  The world has now transformed to such an extent that the concept of going "home" is rendered meaningless.  Nor does the "family wishes" argument hold any water for me.  The relevance of this diminishes when out of living memory and certainly after a hundred years or more have elapsed.  The Plantagenet Alliance are no more more *his* family than the million-plus other people who may have some distant genetic connection.

There's a powerful symbolism in Richard's death, burial and restoration - the real weight of history that still has power to engage and move people - that I think would only be weakened by de-contextualising him from its physical location and putting him in an ersatz medieval tomb in a real medieval building somewhere else.  Richard is more than just dry bones to send in a box up the M1.  It may be difficult to translate Hardy's poem about Drummer Hodge to a car park in modern-day Leicester but, oddly, it does come to mind:

They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined -- just as found...

Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge for ever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellations reign
His stars eternally.

It's a contentious subject and everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I don't wish to change anyone's mind on this, but I hope we can all agree that the *manner* of the re-interment is the most important thing once the wrangling about the where it is to take place is out of the way.

On a lighter note, I had to travel north over the weekend and popped into Bosworth for the Sunday of the anniversary commemoration.  Bosworth produces three beers named after the battle: a Richard III Ale, a Battle Ale and a Henry VII Ale.  The Richard III Ale had all sold out; there were only a couple of bottles of the Battle Ale left; but the Henry VII Ale, unwanted and unsold, was still there in vast quantities.

Jonathan

________________________________
From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 0:27
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 
Hello there.
 
I totally understand your own sentiments on this matter, however, please accept my sincere apologies if I am wrong here, but I wonder if you live either in the County of Leicestershire, or possibly even a little further down the country?   Does Pamela Furmidge post her comments in the Leicester Mercury by any chance? I am not sure what is the reasoning behind your branch member's comment that 'her heart said York but that it should be in Leicester'?  Was she simply meaning that it was because Richard was found there, and that is where he should stay?  I do not mean to be nitpicking, but I know that if my heart said something about so important an issue, then I would, unless on pain of death, have to go with my heart's view!  Maybe I am just an old romantic!!
 
We all have our own hopes and dreams, with regard to the celebration of the life of King Richard; indeed who amongst us would ever have thought we would be lucky, and honoured enough, to be able to witness the remains of a 15th Century Monarch being carried into a House of God.  I mean, it is truly a simply incredible, and stupendous moment in history; As a nation we are at our very best, when showing ourselves to the world's populace, and regardless of the unfortunate minority of people who have popped out of the woodwork, professing to know everything there is to know about TWOR and Richard's life in particular, I believe this is such a wonderful opportunity to show off to advantage, the singular prospect of the reburial of a monarch from another century, another age, another time. 
Kind regards again
 
Alison

________________________________
From: ricard1an <mailto:maryfriend%40waitrose.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 21:59
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

 

Alison I think your response was from the heart and articulated many of the things that I have felt about Ricardian places.

For some reason from the very beginning I have been relaxed about Richard being re-buried in Leicester. I don't know why. I felt better when, I think it was Pamela Furmidge, said some months ago that she had been to Leicester Cathedral(after the discovery) and that she felt comfortable ( or words to that effect) about Richard being re-buried there. Today members of the branch I belong to have had a discussion about the Judicial Review and the consensus of opinion is that it should be Leicester. One person put it quite well by saying that her heart said York but that it should be Leicester. I have been a member of the Branch for about twenty five years and members have changed over the years but we have always had this uncanny knack of thinking alike. It is quite weird.

I am sure nobody will criticize you for feeling the way you do. I am quite angry with the Plantagenet Alliance for jumping on the bandwagon. I think that possibly many of them didn't even know who he was before they found out that they were related to him. However, I do think that you and all the other people on the Forum and in the Society who think that he should be buried in York have a right to your opinion and whatever the decision is we will all have to accept it. I also find it sad that people want him for the money he can bring into their coffers instead of the honour of having one of the best monarchs we have ever had buried in their cathedral.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response Carole.
> I do appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter; no doubt things will rumble along until Richard can finally be laid to rest.  You say you live a lot nearer to York, and have visited that city many times, and I also understand your sentiments with regard to the Greyfriars locus to Leicester Cathedral.  I too have been to Leicester, and Bosworth, and I am only too well aware of the intense reaction caused by simply being so close to the place where Richard fought his last battle and, due of course, to the wonderful efforts of Leicester University, and the Richard III Society, his grave in the Greyfriars precincts.
>  
> This is not a subject I ever presumed I would be commenting upon openly to so many people; simply because I never, ever, could have imagined I would be fortunate enough to be alive to witness such a momentous discovery.  I am aware there are many people who comment on this forum who, judging by the contents of their posts, are highly educated, and extremely knowledgeable with regard to the life and times of this King, and I certainly would not wish to presume my own opinions are of equal worth. However, I do believe I can speak for those who may not wish to bring their own thoughts to the table here.  As we live in a democracy, I believe it is only fitting that we can voice our views on the subject of Richard's final resting place, without some of the vitriolic comments I have seen on various web sites. 
>  
> So Carole, in response to your well reasoned argument for a Leicester burial, I hope you will allow me write, what I genuinely feel; I sincerely hope anyone reading this will not think I am attempting to start yet another gunfight with regard to this subject!...
>  
> I have held an interest in medieval history for a long time; specifically the years leading up to, and throughout the Wars of the Roses, with particular interest in the life and times of Richard III.  I live in Yorkshire, and am lucky enough to have visited on several occasions, all of the places connected with Richard's role as 'Lord of the North' and 'King of England'.  I live close to Towton battlefield, and the tiny Lead Chapel, which survives to this day, to where many of the dead were brought, following that snowy Palm Sunday, when Edward IV won the day.  I have walked around Sheriff Hutton castle in both sunlight and frost, and been into the church where popular belief says the tomb there is of Richard's son, Edward.  Whether it is or not does not matter; the tomb is a place where people leave white roses in remembrance of both Edward and his
father.  My parents live in Scarborough, where Richard is
thought of with fond memories; its
> town, populace, and castle were particularly well thought of by Richard, and there are plaques around the town to commemorate his time there.  I love going to Middleham, and was there recently with my cousin, an artist.  She has painted me the most wonderful view of the castle; a powerful image measuring 3ft x 3ft, which hangs on my wall, as I write this lengthy prose!  
>  
> I hope I can try and explain just what it would mean to me, and to many, many more people who would wish for Richard to rest in peace back in his beloved Yorkshire.  It is quite simple really... To stand in the ruins of Middleham Castle, be it a cold, icy,winter's day, or the heat of a July summer; to feel the past all around you, to sense a young man, and his wife, come back to live in the place they were both brought up, and to where they would live the majority of their short lives before the hell that broke loose in 1483, to look around and see the same lie of the land as they did, the same stones of the castle walls, the steps leading up to the towers, and the doorways through which they passed, then I believe most genuine people would say just how hard it is to think that this man will be laid to rest, (albeit no doubt in a wonderful tomb) in a place far away from this beautiful, open landscape, where, we believe, he spent
the happiest
days of
> his short life.
>  
> As far as York Minster is concerned Carole, then I would request you, if at all possible, to make a return visit to this magnificent cathedral and stand at the entrance of the great West door, the same place Richard passed through on various occasions, and where both he, and his Queen were welcomed with such generosity by the townspeople and dignitaries.  Imagine the splendour of those ceremonies; look upward and see through Richard and Anne's eyes the beautiful vaulted roof, the rose window, with beams of sunlight shining like shards onto the mellow stone, the warmth and good wishes of a city who owed much to this man, and who were not afraid to put their thoughts in writing following the death of their King, their friend.   Then return to Leicester.
>  
> Although it might seem I have romanticised some of the above, it is only because I feel so sad that we cannot all reach agreement on this matter.  Nothing is wrong with Leicester.  Bosworth  is where Richard so courageously fought his last battle, and Leicester has just cause to be proud of Richard and his associations with the city, not to mention the wonderful achievements of the University and Society etc in locating Richard. I do not know what the final outcome of this saga will be, only that for once, it would be nice if the majority vote could be utilised and we could all move on democratically.  Good grief, I have practically written a Philippa Gregory!!!  Please do not all attack at once!!!
>  
> Hopeful kind regards!
> Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <caroleugis@...>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 19:21
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> Hi Alison,
>  No I do not live in Leicester, in fact I live a lot nearer to York which is a City I love very much and have visited many times. My feelings that he should be buried in Leicester is a purely instinctive one which I got when I visited Leicester and saw the site of Grey friars and its proximity to the |Cathedral. Leicester Cathedral has always shown due respect to Richard and it was always lovely to visit the site of the commemorative Stone in the Cathedral and say a prayer for Richard. 
> If there was any evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried in York then i Would honour that but I have not seen any evidence that Richard ever expressed a wish as to where he was to be buried. I think it is fitting that he should be buried in the Cathedral nearest to where he died and near the men who died fighting for him.
>
> Regards
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alison Shiels <mailto:alisonshiels%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:27
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
>  
> Do you reside in Leicester Carole? 
>  
> Alison
>
> ________________________________
> From: carole hughes <mailto:caroleugis%40yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 17:13
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
>
> I  think we have to remember that it is only a review and that may be decided  that Leicester will be allowed to bury him. Some people are already declaring that the Plantagenet alliance have 'won'. This is not the case. I will state that I want him to be buried in Leicester and I will be upset if he is buried anywhere else but hey I would have to get over it. 
>
> Carole
>
> ________________________________
> From: lizwilliams <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:53
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> Well I'm with you Sandra.  I don't care "where" he is as long as he gets an appropriate tomb and is honoured properly.
>
> Liz
>
> From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 12:22
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>  
> So...now what? York doesnâ¬"t seem interested, Leicester very much is, for whatever reason. I donâ¬"t particularly want to see this wide consultation deciding on York after all, because York does not appear to want him. I do not wish him to go anywhere that is half-hearted about providing him with his final resting place. Or have I misunderstood Yorkâ¬"s standpoint? Leicester, on the other hand, is embarking upon a very worthy tomb for our king, and has certainly decided to do him proud.He will be truly honoured. I am probably very much in the minority here, and so will close the door quietly as I tiptoe out... =^..^=
>
> From: mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:50 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> Hello All, did you know that The Alliance has been granted their judicial review, God Bless em.
> Loyaulte me Lie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I like all your points, Weds, and agree.

I hope the JR/independent panel (whichever happens)focuses principally on these issues. Leicester will always have the battlefield, their new museum on the Greyfriars site and the statue and former memorial stone in the cathedral. They don't need his mortal remains, which should be brought to somewhere chosen by his collateral descendants as significant to him and his likely/possible mausoleum.

Col

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> I think (and your mileage certainly varies):
>
> 1. Richard's remains "belong" to his blood relations, even if those relations are 500+ years down the line. If this were anyone else's bones, the law would dictate that his family gets to decide where to bury him.
>
> 2. The Tydder dictated what happened to Richard's body. The Tydder definitely isn't family, and I doubt Richard would be contented to remain *anywhere* the Tydder consigned him to be -- including a Tudor cathedral.
>
> 3. Richard spent more than half of his life in Yorkshire. By all of the evidence, he was happy their. If he can't go home to Middleham, York seems close enough. They liked him, and he liked them. He spent three weeks in York on his progress, the city welcomed him with open arms. Even before that, they gave their duke fish and wine and other goodies, and hassled the Tydder for years out of regard for him. He was *their* king.
>
> 4. Surely it's enough for Leicester to have the tourist draw of Bosworth, the Grey Friars site, a $4 million museum? Is the city truly so greedy that they must have possession of his bones a la the medieval cathedrals that claimed possession of saints' relics?
>
> In the end, beyond the king and all the associated drama, for me it's a matter of, "The man is the Alliance's uncle, isn't he?"
>
> ~Weds
>
>
> --- In , Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello again
> >  
> > Thanks for your comments.  I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak.  His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be.  Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if  during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them.  By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there.  Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!! 
> >  
> > The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner.  I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
> >  
> > You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions.  I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to?  Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch.  I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me.  It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.
> >  
> > You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'.  I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!
> >
> > Regards once more
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
>

Has the English/British royal family of the past five hundred years ever chosen to bury a monarch (apart from James II/VII and George I,) anywhere other than London or Windsor? =^..^=


From: colyngbourne
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:16 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


I like all your points, Weds, and agree.

I hope the JR/independent panel (whichever happens)focuses principally on these issues. Leicester will always have the battlefield, their new museum on the Greyfriars site and the statue and former memorial stone in the cathedral. They don't need his mortal remains, which should be brought to somewhere chosen by his collateral descendants as significant to him and his likely/possible mausoleum.

Col

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> I think (and your mileage certainly varies):
>
> 1. Richard's remains "belong" to his blood relations, even if those relations are 500+ years down the line. If this were anyone else's bones, the law would dictate that his family gets to decide where to bury him.
>
> 2. The Tydder dictated what happened to Richard's body. The Tydder definitely isn't family, and I doubt Richard would be contented to remain *anywhere* the Tydder consigned him to be -- including a Tudor cathedral.
>
> 3. Richard spent more than half of his life in Yorkshire. By all of the evidence, he was happy their. If he can't go home to Middleham, York seems close enough. They liked him, and he liked them. He spent three weeks in York on his progress, the city welcomed him with open arms. Even before that, they gave their duke fish and wine and other goodies, and hassled the Tydder for years out of regard for him. He was *their* king.
>
> 4. Surely it's enough for Leicester to have the tourist draw of Bosworth, the Grey Friars site, a $4 million museum? Is the city truly so greedy that they must have possession of his bones a la the medieval cathedrals that claimed possession of saints' relics?
>
> In the end, beyond the king and all the associated drama, for me it's a matter of, "The man is the Alliance's uncle, isn't he?"
>
> ~Weds
>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello again
> > Â
> > Thanks for your comments. I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak. His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be. Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them.  By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there. Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!!Â
> > Â
> > The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner. I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
> > Â
> > You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions. I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to? Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch.  I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me. It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.
> > Â
> > You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'. I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!
> >
> > Regards once more
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
>

George I was buried back in Germany.

James II was buried in France (having been in exile there) but the tomb was lost at the Revolution.

Before Richard Henry IV was buried at Canterbury, though there is a credible story that his body was so decomposed that the boatmen threw it in the river and substituted that of a criminal.

Full list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_British_royalty

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Has the English/British “royal family” of the past five hundred years ever chosen to bury a monarch (apart from James II/VII and George I,) anywhere other than London or Windsor? =^..^=
>
>
> From: colyngbourne
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:16 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> I like all your points, Weds, and agree.
>
> I hope the JR/independent panel (whichever happens)focuses principally on these issues. Leicester will always have the battlefield, their new museum on the Greyfriars site and the statue and former memorial stone in the cathedral. They don't need his mortal remains, which should be brought to somewhere chosen by his collateral descendants as significant to him and his likely/possible mausoleum.
>
> Col
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > I think (and your mileage certainly varies):
> >
> > 1. Richard's remains "belong" to his blood relations, even if those relations are 500+ years down the line. If this were anyone else's bones, the law would dictate that his family gets to decide where to bury him.
> >
> > 2. The Tydder dictated what happened to Richard's body. The Tydder definitely isn't family, and I doubt Richard would be contented to remain *anywhere* the Tydder consigned him to be -- including a Tudor cathedral.
> >
> > 3. Richard spent more than half of his life in Yorkshire. By all of the evidence, he was happy their. If he can't go home to Middleham, York seems close enough. They liked him, and he liked them. He spent three weeks in York on his progress, the city welcomed him with open arms. Even before that, they gave their duke fish and wine and other goodies, and hassled the Tydder for years out of regard for him. He was *their* king.
> >
> > 4. Surely it's enough for Leicester to have the tourist draw of Bosworth, the Grey Friars site, a $4 million museum? Is the city truly so greedy that they must have possession of his bones a la the medieval cathedrals that claimed possession of saints' relics?
> >
> > In the end, beyond the king and all the associated drama, for me it's a matter of, "The man is the Alliance's uncle, isn't he?"
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello again
> > > Â
> > > Thanks for your comments. I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak. His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be. Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them.  By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there. Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!!Â
> > > Â
> > > The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner. I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
> > > Â
> > > You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions. I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to? Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch.  I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me. It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.
> > > Â
> > > You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'. I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!
> > >
> > > Regards once more
> > >
> > > Alison
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

And Edward II was buried in Gloucester after his murder at Berkeley Castle. If it was there that he died, of course. But that is another story. The thing is, he was buried at the closest great church to his place of death. Regarding Richard, if Leicester was not a cathedral/great church' in 1485, where was the next nearest such important house of God, next nearest bishop? I'm only musing here, not working toward suggesting another place for our poor king. I am just curious. There seem similarites between the two monarchs, in that they were both deposed/killed' by an implacable enemy who took over the realm. Edward II ended up with a fine tomb in Gloucester, countless pilgrims and a lot of money for St. Peter's. He is surely a precedent? =^..^=

From: davidarayner
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:02 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


George I was buried back in Germany.

James II was buried in France (having been in exile there) but the tomb was lost at the Revolution.

Before Richard Henry IV was buried at Canterbury, though there is a credible story that his body was so decomposed that the boatmen threw it in the river and substituted that of a criminal.

Full list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_British_royalty

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Has the English/British “royal family” of the past five hundred years ever chosen to bury a monarch (apart from James II/VII and George I,) anywhere other than London or Windsor? =^..^=
>
>
> From: colyngbourne
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:16 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> I like all your points, Weds, and agree.
>
> I hope the JR/independent panel (whichever happens)focuses principally on these issues. Leicester will always have the battlefield, their new museum on the Greyfriars site and the statue and former memorial stone in the cathedral. They don't need his mortal remains, which should be brought to somewhere chosen by his collateral descendants as significant to him and his likely/possible mausoleum.
>
> Col
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > I think (and your mileage certainly varies):
> >
> > 1. Richard's remains "belong" to his blood relations, even if those relations are 500+ years down the line. If this were anyone else's bones, the law would dictate that his family gets to decide where to bury him.
> >
> > 2. The Tydder dictated what happened to Richard's body. The Tydder definitely isn't family, and I doubt Richard would be contented to remain *anywhere* the Tydder consigned him to be -- including a Tudor cathedral.
> >
> > 3. Richard spent more than half of his life in Yorkshire. By all of the evidence, he was happy their. If he can't go home to Middleham, York seems close enough. They liked him, and he liked them. He spent three weeks in York on his progress, the city welcomed him with open arms. Even before that, they gave their duke fish and wine and other goodies, and hassled the Tydder for years out of regard for him. He was *their* king.
> >
> > 4. Surely it's enough for Leicester to have the tourist draw of Bosworth, the Grey Friars site, a $4 million museum? Is the city truly so greedy that they must have possession of his bones a la the medieval cathedrals that claimed possession of saints' relics?
> >
> > In the end, beyond the king and all the associated drama, for me it's a matter of, "The man is the Alliance's uncle, isn't he?"
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello again
> > > Â
> > > Thanks for your comments. I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak. His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be. Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them.  By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there. Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!!Â
> > > Â
> > > The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner. I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
> > > Â
> > > You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions. I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to? Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch.  I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me. It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.
> > > Â
> > > You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'. I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!
> > >
> > > Regards once more
> > >
> > > Alison
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Oh, lord, the grey cells are ticking. Another thing, Richard's family at the time of Bosworth, and for various reigns afterward, into the Stuarts, did not make overtures to have him moved from Grey Friars, Leicester. And they were a lot closer to him than the Plantagenet Alliance of now. All those closer' generations did nothing at all, and let his memorial at Grey Friars disappear and his resting place be forgotten. I know I sound contentious here, but all this talk or where and why for him has just set me thinking. Always a bad thing, I'm afraid. I'm sorry if I sound as if I have my wooden spoon out, but I do not mean to. I am just thinking aloud, and wondering. So I'll take a tablet. That should quieten me. =^..^=


From: SandraMachin
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:28 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Alliance Judicial Review


And Edward II was buried in Gloucester after his murder at Berkeley Castle. If it was there that he died, of course. But that is another story. The thing is, he was buried at the closest great church to his place of death. Regarding Richard, if Leicester was not a cathedral/great church' in 1485, where was the next nearest such important house of God, next nearest bishop? I'm only musing here, not working toward suggesting another place for our poor king. I am just curious. There seem similarites between the two monarchs, in that they were both deposed/killed' by an implacable enemy who took over the realm. Edward II ended up with a fine tomb in Gloucester, countless pilgrims and a lot of money for St. Peter's. He is surely a precedent? =^..^=

From: davidarayner
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:02 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

George I was buried back in Germany.

James II was buried in France (having been in exile there) but the tomb was lost at the Revolution.

Before Richard Henry IV was buried at Canterbury, though there is a credible story that his body was so decomposed that the boatmen threw it in the river and substituted that of a criminal.

Full list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_British_royalty

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Has the English/British “royal family” of the past five hundred years ever chosen to bury a monarch (apart from James II/VII and George I,) anywhere other than London or Windsor? =^..^=
>
>
> From: colyngbourne
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:16 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
>
> I like all your points, Weds, and agree.
>
> I hope the JR/independent panel (whichever happens)focuses principally on these issues. Leicester will always have the battlefield, their new museum on the Greyfriars site and the statue and former memorial stone in the cathedral. They don't need his mortal remains, which should be brought to somewhere chosen by his collateral descendants as significant to him and his likely/possible mausoleum.
>
> Col
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > I think (and your mileage certainly varies):
> >
> > 1. Richard's remains "belong" to his blood relations, even if those relations are 500+ years down the line. If this were anyone else's bones, the law would dictate that his family gets to decide where to bury him.
> >
> > 2. The Tydder dictated what happened to Richard's body. The Tydder definitely isn't family, and I doubt Richard would be contented to remain *anywhere* the Tydder consigned him to be -- including a Tudor cathedral.
> >
> > 3. Richard spent more than half of his life in Yorkshire. By all of the evidence, he was happy their. If he can't go home to Middleham, York seems close enough. They liked him, and he liked them. He spent three weeks in York on his progress, the city welcomed him with open arms. Even before that, they gave their duke fish and wine and other goodies, and hassled the Tydder for years out of regard for him. He was *their* king.
> >
> > 4. Surely it's enough for Leicester to have the tourist draw of Bosworth, the Grey Friars site, a $4 million museum? Is the city truly so greedy that they must have possession of his bones a la the medieval cathedrals that claimed possession of saints' relics?
> >
> > In the end, beyond the king and all the associated drama, for me it's a matter of, "The man is the Alliance's uncle, isn't he?"
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello again
> > > Â
> > > Thanks for your comments. I agree that you cannot change history; however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle believing he was going to win, even though he probably made sure his personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to speak. His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably never shall be. Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King of England, to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were exhumed, if during their lifetime their links to any other place were more meaningful to them.  By saying he was buried in Leicester for 500+ years, and you feel it is right he should be re-buried there, then I certainly do not believe that is a good enough reason for him staying there. Only my opinion, and I acknowledge the fact we shall never agree on that point!!!Â
> > > Â
> > > The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely undignified manner. I hope others will agree with me in that assumption, and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
> > > Â
> > > You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and his story more accessible to the public; that in Westminster, Windsor or York there would be distractions. I do not understand your reasoning here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to? Surely, a burial in any one of those places is nothing but the most respectful, and personal reflection of dignity for any monarch.  I know from personal experience, that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our country's Kings and Queens, that not once have I ever been 'distracted' from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me. It is only those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become 'distracted'.
> > > Â
> > > You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it was like 'coming home'. I think it would be rather nice if Richard's remains were also granted that same sentiment!
> > >
> > > Regards once more
> > >
> > > Alison
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

What family are you talking about?

My impression is that most of them were dead...

A J


On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 1:42 PM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Oh, lord, the grey cells are ticking. Another thing, Richardýs family at
> the time of Bosworth, and for various reigns afterward, into the Stuarts,
> did not make overtures to have him moved from Grey Friars, Leicester. And
> they were a lot closer to him than the Plantagenet Alliance of now. All
> those ýcloserý generations did nothing at all, and let his memorial at Grey
> Friars disappear and his resting place be forgotten. I know I sound
> contentious here, but all this talk or where and why for him has just set
> me thinking. Always a bad thing, Iým afraid. Iým sorry if I sound as if I
> have my wooden spoon out, but I do not mean to. I am just thinking aloud,
> and wondering. So Iýll take a tablet. That should quieten me. =^..^=
>
> From: SandraMachin
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:28 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> And Edward II was buried in Gloucester after his murder at Berkeley
> Castle. If it was there that he died, of course. But that is another story.
> The thing is, he was buried at the closest great church to his place of
> death. Regarding Richard, if Leicester was not a ýcathedral/great churchý
> in 1485, where was the next nearest such important house of God, next
> nearest bishop? Iým only musing here, not working toward suggesting another
> place for our poor king. I am just curious. There seem similarites between
> the two monarchs, in that they were both ýdeposed/killedý by an implacable
> enemy who took over the realm. Edward II ended up with a fine tomb in
> Gloucester, countless pilgrims and a lot of money for St. Peterýs. He is
> surely a precedent? =^..^=
>
> From: davidarayner
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:02 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> George I was buried back in Germany.
>
> James II was buried in France (having been in exile there) but the tomb
> was lost at the Revolution.
>
> Before Richard Henry IV was buried at Canterbury, though there is a
> credible story that his body was so decomposed that the boatmen threw it in
> the river and substituted that of a criminal.
>
> Full list:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_British_royalty
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin"
> <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> >
> > Has the English/British ýýýroyal familyýý of the past five hundred years
> ever chosen to bury a monarch (apart from James II/VII and George I,)
> anywhere other than London or Windsor? =^..^=
> >
> >
> > From: colyngbourne
> > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:16 PM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> > I like all your points, Weds, and agree.
> >
> > I hope the JR/independent panel (whichever happens)focuses principally
> on these issues. Leicester will always have the battlefield, their new
> museum on the Greyfriars site and the statue and former memorial stone in
> the cathedral. They don't need his mortal remains, which should be brought
> to somewhere chosen by his collateral descendants as significant to him and
> his likely/possible mausoleum.
> >
> > Col
>
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc"
> <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think (and your mileage certainly varies):
> > >
> > > 1. Richard's remains "belong" to his blood relations, even if those
> relations are 500+ years down the line. If this were anyone else's bones,
> the law would dictate that his family gets to decide where to bury him.
> > >
> > > 2. The Tydder dictated what happened to Richard's body. The Tydder
> definitely isn't family, and I doubt Richard would be contented to remain
> *anywhere* the Tydder consigned him to be -- including a Tudor cathedral.
> > >
> > > 3. Richard spent more than half of his life in Yorkshire. By all of
> the evidence, he was happy their. If he can't go home to Middleham, York
> seems close enough. They liked him, and he liked them. He spent three weeks
> in York on his progress, the city welcomed him with open arms. Even before
> that, they gave their duke fish and wine and other goodies, and hassled the
> Tydder for years out of regard for him. He was *their* king.
> > >
> > > 4. Surely it's enough for Leicester to have the tourist draw of
> Bosworth, the Grey Friars site, a $4 million museum? Is the city truly so
> greedy that they must have possession of his bones a la the medieval
> cathedrals that claimed possession of saints' relics?
> > >
> > > In the end, beyond the king and all the associated drama, for me it's
> a matter of, "The man is the Alliance's uncle, isn't he?"
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels
> <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello again
> > > > ýý
> > > > Thanks for your comments.ýý I agree that you cannot change history;
> however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle
> believing he was going to win, even though heýý probably made sure his
> personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to
> speak.ýý His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and probably
> never shall be.ýý Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and
> proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King ofýý
> England,ýý to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were
> exhumed, ifýý during their lifetime their links to any other place were
> more meaningful to them.ýý ýý By saying he wasýý buried in Leicester for
> 500+ years, andýý you feelýý it is right he should be re-buried there,ýý
> then I certainly do not believe thatýý is a good enough reason for him
> staying there.ýý Only my opinion, and Iýý acknowledge the fact we shall
> never agree on that point!!!ýý
> > > > ýý
> > > > The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and
> unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely
> undignified manner.ýý I hope others will agree with me in that assumption,
> and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle
> commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not
> have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
> > > > ýý
> > > > You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and
> his story more accessible to the public; thatýý in Westminster, Windsor or
> York there would be distractions.ýý I do not understand your reasoning
> here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to?ýý Surely, a burial in
> any one of those placesýý is nothing but the most respectful, and personal
> reflection of dignity for any monarch. ýý I know from personal experience,
> that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of our
> country's Kings and Queens,ýý that not once have I ever been 'distracted'
> from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me.ýý It is only
> those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's
> history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become
> 'distracted'.
> > > > ýý
> > > > You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it
> was like 'coming home'.ýý I think it would be rather nice if Richard's
> remains were also granted that same sentiment!
> > > >
> > > > Regards once more
> > > >
> > > > Alison
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

His "blood relatives". If they are around now, they must have around then.
They have to have been, or the Plantagenet Alliance wouldn't exist now. Or
am I wrong about the definition of blood relatives? I thought it meant
anyone who shares the bloodline in some way. Am I too simplistic here?
=^..^=

-----Original Message-----
From: A J Hibbard
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:54 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Alliance Judicial Review

What family are you talking about?

My impression is that most of them were dead...

A J


On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 1:42 PM, SandraMachin
<sandramachin@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Oh, lord, the grey cells are ticking. Another thing, Richard's family at
> the time of Bosworth, and for various reigns afterward, into the Stuarts,
> did not make overtures to have him moved from Grey Friars, Leicester. And
> they were a lot closer to him than the Plantagenet Alliance of now. All
> those closer' generations did nothing at all, and let his memorial at
> Grey
> Friars disappear and his resting place be forgotten. I know I sound
> contentious here, but all this talk or where and why for him has just set
> me thinking. Always a bad thing, I'm afraid. I'm sorry if I sound as if I
> have my wooden spoon out, but I do not mean to. I am just thinking aloud,
> and wondering. So I'll take a tablet. That should quieten me. =^..^=
>
> From: SandraMachin
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:28 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> And Edward II was buried in Gloucester after his murder at Berkeley
> Castle. If it was there that he died, of course. But that is another
> story.
> The thing is, he was buried at the closest great church to his place of
> death. Regarding Richard, if Leicester was not a cathedral/great church'
> in 1485, where was the next nearest such important house of God, next
> nearest bishop? I'm only musing here, not working toward suggesting
> another
> place for our poor king. I am just curious. There seem similarites between
> the two monarchs, in that they were both deposed/killed' by an implacable
> enemy who took over the realm. Edward II ended up with a fine tomb in
> Gloucester, countless pilgrims and a lot of money for St. Peter's. He is
> surely a precedent? =^..^=
>
> From: davidarayner
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:02 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
>
> George I was buried back in Germany.
>
> James II was buried in France (having been in exile there) but the tomb
> was lost at the Revolution.
>
> Before Richard Henry IV was buried at Canterbury, though there is a
> credible story that his body was so decomposed that the boatmen threw it
> in
> the river and substituted that of a criminal.
>
> Full list:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_British_royalty
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "SandraMachin"
> <sandramachin@...> wrote:
> >
> > Has the English/British â¬Sroyal family⬠of the past five hundred years
> ever chosen to bury a monarch (apart from James II/VII and George I,)
> anywhere other than London or Windsor? =^..^=
> >
> >
> > From: colyngbourne
> > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:16 PM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Alliance Judicial Review
> >
> >
> > I like all your points, Weds, and agree.
> >
> > I hope the JR/independent panel (whichever happens)focuses principally
> on these issues. Leicester will always have the battlefield, their new
> museum on the Greyfriars site and the statue and former memorial stone in
> the cathedral. They don't need his mortal remains, which should be brought
> to somewhere chosen by his collateral descendants as significant to him
> and
> his likely/possible mausoleum.
> >
> > Col
>
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc"
> <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think (and your mileage certainly varies):
> > >
> > > 1. Richard's remains "belong" to his blood relations, even if those
> relations are 500+ years down the line. If this were anyone else's bones,
> the law would dictate that his family gets to decide where to bury him.
> > >
> > > 2. The Tydder dictated what happened to Richard's body. The Tydder
> definitely isn't family, and I doubt Richard would be contented to remain
> *anywhere* the Tydder consigned him to be -- including a Tudor cathedral.
> > >
> > > 3. Richard spent more than half of his life in Yorkshire. By all of
> the evidence, he was happy their. If he can't go home to Middleham, York
> seems close enough. They liked him, and he liked them. He spent three
> weeks
> in York on his progress, the city welcomed him with open arms. Even before
> that, they gave their duke fish and wine and other goodies, and hassled
> the
> Tydder for years out of regard for him. He was *their* king.
> > >
> > > 4. Surely it's enough for Leicester to have the tourist draw of
> Bosworth, the Grey Friars site, a $4 million museum? Is the city truly so
> greedy that they must have possession of his bones a la the medieval
> cathedrals that claimed possession of saints' relics?
> > >
> > > In the end, beyond the king and all the associated drama, for me it's
> a matter of, "The man is the Alliance's uncle, isn't he?"
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Alison Shiels
> <alisonshiels@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello again
> > > > Ã
> > > > Thanks for your comments.Ã I agree that you cannot change history;
> however you must acknowledge the fact that Richard rode into battle
> believing he was going to win, even though heà probably made sure his
> personal affairs i.e. a Will would have been in order; just in case, so to
> speak.Ã His 'Will' as we know, has not, to date been located, and
> probably
> never shall be.Ã Speaking personally, I do not think it is right and
> proper for any person's remains, never mind an anointed King ofÃ
> England,Ã to automatically be reburied in a locus near to where they were
> exhumed, ifà during their lifetime their links to any other place were
> more meaningful to them.à à By saying he wasà buried in Leicester for
> 500+ years, andà you feelà it is right he should be re-buried there,Ã
> then I certainly do not believe thatà is a good enough reason for him
> staying there.Ã Only my opinion, and IÃ acknowledge the fact we shall
> never agree on that point!!!Ã
> > > > Ã
> > > > The difference with Richard, is simply that he died in battle, and
> unfortunately was unceremoniously returned to Leicester in an extremely
> undignified manner.Ã I hope others will agree with me in that assumption,
> and I do believe that Richard, given his history as an able battle
> commander, and well used to the ignominies of those harsh times, would not
> have wished his final journey to his grave to have been so appalling.
> > > > Ã
> > > > You say, that in Leicester he would be the centre of attention, and
> his story more accessible to the public; thatà in Westminster, Windsor or
> York there would be distractions.Ã I do not understand your reasoning
> here, just what 'distractions' are you referring to?Ã Surely, a burial in
> any one of those placesà is nothing but the most respectful, and personal
> reflection of dignity for any monarch. Ã I know from personal experience,
> that whenever I have been to see the tombs, and burial sites of many of
> our
> country's Kings and Queens,Ã that not once have I ever been 'distracted'
> from focusing on the wonderful historical sight before me.Ã It is only
> those who do not have a true respect for the significance of our country's
> history, and the monarchs and their spouses, who may inadvertently become
> 'distracted'.
> > > > Ã
> > > > You say, one of your branch members said that on a visit to York, it
> was like 'coming home'.Ã I think it would be rather nice if Richard's
> remains were also granted that same sentiment!
> > > >
> > > > Regards once more
> > > >
> > > > Alison
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






------------------------------------

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