Sheriff Hutton
Sheriff Hutton
2013-08-17 03:28:45
Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485 ,
. The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and stature
and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th being
Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is reputedly
where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
Josie D
Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485 ,
. The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and stature
and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th being
Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is reputedly
where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
Josie D
Re: Sheriff Hutton
2013-08-17 11:54:57
--- In , Jo Davidson <jdne10@...> wrote:
>
> Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
> Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485 ,
> . The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and stature
> and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th being
> Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is reputedly
> where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
> Josie D
>
>
>
>
Hi Josie,
Yes, I did visit once. I walked round the fence surrounding the castle ruins, then went down to the church to see the tomb. The tomb has now been quite clearly identified as belonging to the early years of the 15th century and the work of a craftsman working in Yorkshire at that time (you've only to look at the hairstyle and dress to see it couldn't belong to Richard's era). It has been outside at some point in its history, and was therefore probably brought to the church from the ruins of the castle chapel - there is no body inside, needless to say. I believe it's thought most likely to be the tomb of a child of Ralph Earl of Westmorland and Joan Beaufort. At any rate he was somebody's little boy.
My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
Marie
>
> Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
> Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485 ,
> . The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and stature
> and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th being
> Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is reputedly
> where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
> Josie D
>
>
>
>
Hi Josie,
Yes, I did visit once. I walked round the fence surrounding the castle ruins, then went down to the church to see the tomb. The tomb has now been quite clearly identified as belonging to the early years of the 15th century and the work of a craftsman working in Yorkshire at that time (you've only to look at the hairstyle and dress to see it couldn't belong to Richard's era). It has been outside at some point in its history, and was therefore probably brought to the church from the ruins of the castle chapel - there is no body inside, needless to say. I believe it's thought most likely to be the tomb of a child of Ralph Earl of Westmorland and Joan Beaufort. At any rate he was somebody's little boy.
My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
Marie
Re: Sheriff Hutton
2013-08-17 12:57:43
Please do not think I am being combative here, because I truly am not. It concerns Richard's final resting place, but has nothing to do with the Leicester/York question. I know we have discussed this before, but why, if Edward of Middleham is probably buried in York Minster, and Richard quite likely wished to be laid to rest there as well, did he not have Anne interred there? He had building plans for the Minster, yes, but we do not really know what the new build was ultimately intended for. Do we? Maybe we do and it has gone over my head. I really am curious about this whole thing. I know Richard was assiduous about moving his relatives'/solders' remains to appropriate sites, but cannot help feeling that if the Minster was his preferred resting place for his own immediate family, he would have had Anne placed there from the outset. It is more practical to simply move her tomb within the Minster than to have her brought all the way from Westminster Abbey. Did he refrain because he thought that taking her to the north would offend the south? He wanted to establish his reign much more before doing such a thing? This is old ground, I know, but I get so confounded by it every time. It feels as if there is an important piece of the puzzle missing, something so obvious that it is overlooked. I apologise for raising it yet again. =^..^=
From: mariewalsh2003
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 11:54 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Sheriff Hutton
My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
Marie
From: mariewalsh2003
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 11:54 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Sheriff Hutton
My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
Marie
Re: Sheriff Hutton
2013-08-17 13:26:58
No, it's a good point. It would certainly have been unusual for a queen to be taken too far away from the capital for burial, and it is something Richard probably could not contemplate at least until he had secured his throne from Tudor and remarried. But you are right - a lot of assumptions have been made about what this enormous college at York Minster was to be for (apart from the obvious one of saying lots of masses). One function of most of these colleges was educational (hence the modern meaning of 'college'). Some were also founded as mausoleums (mausolea?) where the family tombs could be constantly prayed over. If Edward of Middleham was laid to rest in the Minster it does seem reasonable to assume that his memorial would have been placed in the college. But what about Anne?
My feeling is that Richard's wishes for his own burial may have been different if he died in 1485 than if he died later after remarrying and possibly having a second family. As king he would have expected to be buried in the South East (Westminster or Windsor), with his queen, whatever his emotional attachment to Yorkshire; in 1485 that would have meant at Westminster with Anne. In the cases of the most recent deposed kings (Richard II, Henry IV), they had initially been buried where it suited their supplanter, but *his* successor had had their remains removed to a more suitable location. Richard may have hoped that, in the event of his death at Tudor's hands, Tudor's successor would act equally honourably and have his remains reinterred in the place stated in his will.
Richard would certainly have made - or revised - his will before the battle, and the first item in that will would have been his wishes regarding his burial - that was absolutely standard at this period; the will probably also enjoined his executors to fulfil his wishes with regards to the memorials of his wife and son. But the will was not honoured, does not survive and is not even referred to in any extant documents, so we can only guess at what it would have said. Given that Westminster Abbey won't take him and Anne's remains there are unidentified, it does seem reasonable to suppose that either York Minster or St George's, Windsor, would represent our best guess at his second choice. Or he may have been really humble (and proto-protestant) and asked to be buried "where God should dispose."
It's probably undeniable that York would have been his real emotional desire, at least if Anne's remains could have been transferred there too.
The enthusiasm of the staff dealing with the public at York Minster is one thing, but does anyone know the views on Richard of Archbishop Sentimu? It seemed the Dean and Chapter offered to take Richard at one point, then retracted, that's all.
--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Please do not think I am being combative here, because I truly am not. It concerns Richard’s final resting place, but has nothing to do with the Leicester/York question. I know we have discussed this before, but why, if Edward of Middleham is probably buried in York Minster, and Richard quite likely wished to be laid to rest there as well, did he not have Anne interred there? He had building plans for the Minster, yes, but we do not really know what the new build was ultimately intended for. Do we? Maybe we do and it has gone over my head. I really am curious about this whole thing. I know Richard was assiduous about moving his relatives’/solders’ remains to appropriate sites, but cannot help feeling that if the Minster was his preferred resting place for his own immediate family, he would have had Anne placed there from the outset. It is more practical to simply move her tomb within the Minster than to have her brought all the way from Westminster Abbey. Did he refrain because he thought that taking her to the north would offend the south? He wanted to establish his reign much more before doing such a thing? This is old ground, I know, but I get so confounded by it every time. It feels as if there is an important piece of the puzzle missing, something so obvious that it is overlooked. I apologise for raising it yet again. =^..^=
>
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 11:54 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Sheriff Hutton
>
> My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
My feeling is that Richard's wishes for his own burial may have been different if he died in 1485 than if he died later after remarrying and possibly having a second family. As king he would have expected to be buried in the South East (Westminster or Windsor), with his queen, whatever his emotional attachment to Yorkshire; in 1485 that would have meant at Westminster with Anne. In the cases of the most recent deposed kings (Richard II, Henry IV), they had initially been buried where it suited their supplanter, but *his* successor had had their remains removed to a more suitable location. Richard may have hoped that, in the event of his death at Tudor's hands, Tudor's successor would act equally honourably and have his remains reinterred in the place stated in his will.
Richard would certainly have made - or revised - his will before the battle, and the first item in that will would have been his wishes regarding his burial - that was absolutely standard at this period; the will probably also enjoined his executors to fulfil his wishes with regards to the memorials of his wife and son. But the will was not honoured, does not survive and is not even referred to in any extant documents, so we can only guess at what it would have said. Given that Westminster Abbey won't take him and Anne's remains there are unidentified, it does seem reasonable to suppose that either York Minster or St George's, Windsor, would represent our best guess at his second choice. Or he may have been really humble (and proto-protestant) and asked to be buried "where God should dispose."
It's probably undeniable that York would have been his real emotional desire, at least if Anne's remains could have been transferred there too.
The enthusiasm of the staff dealing with the public at York Minster is one thing, but does anyone know the views on Richard of Archbishop Sentimu? It seemed the Dean and Chapter offered to take Richard at one point, then retracted, that's all.
--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Please do not think I am being combative here, because I truly am not. It concerns Richard’s final resting place, but has nothing to do with the Leicester/York question. I know we have discussed this before, but why, if Edward of Middleham is probably buried in York Minster, and Richard quite likely wished to be laid to rest there as well, did he not have Anne interred there? He had building plans for the Minster, yes, but we do not really know what the new build was ultimately intended for. Do we? Maybe we do and it has gone over my head. I really am curious about this whole thing. I know Richard was assiduous about moving his relatives’/solders’ remains to appropriate sites, but cannot help feeling that if the Minster was his preferred resting place for his own immediate family, he would have had Anne placed there from the outset. It is more practical to simply move her tomb within the Minster than to have her brought all the way from Westminster Abbey. Did he refrain because he thought that taking her to the north would offend the south? He wanted to establish his reign much more before doing such a thing? This is old ground, I know, but I get so confounded by it every time. It feels as if there is an important piece of the puzzle missing, something so obvious that it is overlooked. I apologise for raising it yet again. =^..^=
>
>
> From: mariewalsh2003
> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 11:54 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Sheriff Hutton
>
> My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Sheriff Hutton
2013-08-17 14:16:58
Why would the king's son not have a marked grave in the Minster? Seems
silly to imagine he would not have had one were he there. I would have
thought it more likely Richard would have had him buried somewhere close
to where he could visit on a regular basis, or else in the York family
tomb at Fotheringhay.
But we could argue all these things round and round and round couldn't we?
Paul
On 17/08/2013 11:54, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> --- In , Jo Davidson <jdne10@...> wrote:
>> Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
>> Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485 ,
>> . The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and stature
>> and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th being
>> Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is reputedly
>> where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
>> Josie D
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Hi Josie,
> Yes, I did visit once. I walked round the fence surrounding the castle ruins, then went down to the church to see the tomb. The tomb has now been quite clearly identified as belonging to the early years of the 15th century and the work of a craftsman working in Yorkshire at that time (you've only to look at the hairstyle and dress to see it couldn't belong to Richard's era). It has been outside at some point in its history, and was therefore probably brought to the church from the ruins of the castle chapel - there is no body inside, needless to say. I believe it's thought most likely to be the tomb of a child of Ralph Earl of Westmorland and Joan Beaufort. At any rate he was somebody's little boy.
> My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
> Marie
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--
Richard Liveth Yet!
silly to imagine he would not have had one were he there. I would have
thought it more likely Richard would have had him buried somewhere close
to where he could visit on a regular basis, or else in the York family
tomb at Fotheringhay.
But we could argue all these things round and round and round couldn't we?
Paul
On 17/08/2013 11:54, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> --- In , Jo Davidson <jdne10@...> wrote:
>> Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
>> Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485 ,
>> . The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and stature
>> and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th being
>> Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is reputedly
>> where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
>> Josie D
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Hi Josie,
> Yes, I did visit once. I walked round the fence surrounding the castle ruins, then went down to the church to see the tomb. The tomb has now been quite clearly identified as belonging to the early years of the 15th century and the work of a craftsman working in Yorkshire at that time (you've only to look at the hairstyle and dress to see it couldn't belong to Richard's era). It has been outside at some point in its history, and was therefore probably brought to the church from the ruins of the castle chapel - there is no body inside, needless to say. I believe it's thought most likely to be the tomb of a child of Ralph Earl of Westmorland and Joan Beaufort. At any rate he was somebody's little boy.
> My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
> Marie
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Sheriff Hutton
2013-08-17 14:43:40
--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> Why would the king's son not have a marked grave in the Minster? Seems
> silly to imagine he would not have had one were he there.
Marie replies:
Not silly at all, Paul. The "grave" probably consisted of the body lying in the crypt, and the "tomb" - really a cenotaph - was probably still in the making and intended to lie in the college. These things took years and years to bring to fruition.
Besides, marked graves that we know from records once existed in the Minster have vanished (like Miles Metcalf's, for instance).
I would have
> thought it more likely Richard would have had him buried somewhere close
> to where he could visit on a regular basis, or else in the York family
> tomb at Fotheringhay.
> But we could argue all these things round and round and round couldn't we?
> Paul
Hi,
If Prince Edward's remains had been taken to Fotheringhay, then Richard would surely have visited Fotheringhay. He didn't. There wasn't a "York family tomb" there anyway, rather a chapel with many family tombs, which do not now survive.
Wherever you propose he was buried you have to get over the fact that there is neither a surviving memorial nor a record of one having been there in the past.
> On 17/08/2013 11:54, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> >
> > --- In , Jo Davidson <jdne10@> wrote:
> >> Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
> >> Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485 ,
> >> . The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and stature
> >> and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th being
> >> Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is reputedly
> >> where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
> >> Josie D
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Hi Josie,
> > Yes, I did visit once. I walked round the fence surrounding the castle ruins, then went down to the church to see the tomb. The tomb has now been quite clearly identified as belonging to the early years of the 15th century and the work of a craftsman working in Yorkshire at that time (you've only to look at the hairstyle and dress to see it couldn't belong to Richard's era). It has been outside at some point in its history, and was therefore probably brought to the church from the ruins of the castle chapel - there is no body inside, needless to say. I believe it's thought most likely to be the tomb of a child of Ralph Earl of Westmorland and Joan Beaufort. At any rate he was somebody's little boy.
> > My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
> Why would the king's son not have a marked grave in the Minster? Seems
> silly to imagine he would not have had one were he there.
Marie replies:
Not silly at all, Paul. The "grave" probably consisted of the body lying in the crypt, and the "tomb" - really a cenotaph - was probably still in the making and intended to lie in the college. These things took years and years to bring to fruition.
Besides, marked graves that we know from records once existed in the Minster have vanished (like Miles Metcalf's, for instance).
I would have
> thought it more likely Richard would have had him buried somewhere close
> to where he could visit on a regular basis, or else in the York family
> tomb at Fotheringhay.
> But we could argue all these things round and round and round couldn't we?
> Paul
Hi,
If Prince Edward's remains had been taken to Fotheringhay, then Richard would surely have visited Fotheringhay. He didn't. There wasn't a "York family tomb" there anyway, rather a chapel with many family tombs, which do not now survive.
Wherever you propose he was buried you have to get over the fact that there is neither a surviving memorial nor a record of one having been there in the past.
> On 17/08/2013 11:54, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> >
> > --- In , Jo Davidson <jdne10@> wrote:
> >> Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
> >> Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485 ,
> >> . The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and stature
> >> and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th being
> >> Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is reputedly
> >> where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
> >> Josie D
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Hi Josie,
> > Yes, I did visit once. I walked round the fence surrounding the castle ruins, then went down to the church to see the tomb. The tomb has now been quite clearly identified as belonging to the early years of the 15th century and the work of a craftsman working in Yorkshire at that time (you've only to look at the hairstyle and dress to see it couldn't belong to Richard's era). It has been outside at some point in its history, and was therefore probably brought to the church from the ruins of the castle chapel - there is no body inside, needless to say. I believe it's thought most likely to be the tomb of a child of Ralph Earl of Westmorland and Joan Beaufort. At any rate he was somebody's little boy.
> > My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled sensitively as I know we here all agree.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
Re: Sheriff Hutton
2013-08-17 23:41:59
Dear Marie
Thank you so much for responding, this is a first for me, I was lucky
enough to be visiting Sheriff Hutton recently and join in with the
" International Mediaeval Congress" they were having a talk on the history
of the Church and then a tour of the Castle with the owner who was
charming, for me it was pure coincidence,evidently the owner often allows
callers to go in and view if they are interested in Warwick / Richard 111,
and the castle is amazing.
I saw the tomb and it was obvious from the talk that it was not Edward, but
that very weekend a woman came by train from London, taxi to the church and
she placed on the tomb a beautiful display of white roses whilst her taxi
awaited, she said a prayer then left to catch the return train from York !
Dedication.
It was a memorable visit for me.
I do so hope that Richard returns to York.
Many years ago I had a house in Barnard Castle and in the rear wall was the
Boar, so I have always had a connection with Richard as did my mother
before me as she was a true follower of the Warwick's etc, I think she must
have known The Rose of Raby in her past life, and now here am I.
When Ted Seaton discovered The Middleham Jewel, both my mother and I were
fortunate enough to see it and handle it before it was even seen by the
Professionals, I never forget my mother saying to me, this belonged to
Richard, now that was many years ago when I lived in Barnard castle.
Regards Josie
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:54 AM, mariewalsh2003
<[email protected]>wrote:
> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In , Jo Davidson <jdne10@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
> > Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485
> ,
> > . The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and
> stature
> > and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th
> being
> > Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is
> reputedly
> > where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
> > Josie D
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Hi Josie,
> Yes, I did visit once. I walked round the fence surrounding the castle
> ruins, then went down to the church to see the tomb. The tomb has now been
> quite clearly identified as belonging to the early years of the 15th
> century and the work of a craftsman working in Yorkshire at that time
> (you've only to look at the hairstyle and dress to see it couldn't belong
> to Richard's era). It has been outside at some point in its history, and
> was therefore probably brought to the church from the ruins of the castle
> chapel - there is no body inside, needless to say. I believe it's thought
> most likely to be the tomb of a child of Ralph Earl of Westmorland and Joan
> Beaufort. At any rate he was somebody's little boy.
> My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of
> Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if
> Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled
> sensitively as I know we here all agree.
> Marie
>
>
>
Thank you so much for responding, this is a first for me, I was lucky
enough to be visiting Sheriff Hutton recently and join in with the
" International Mediaeval Congress" they were having a talk on the history
of the Church and then a tour of the Castle with the owner who was
charming, for me it was pure coincidence,evidently the owner often allows
callers to go in and view if they are interested in Warwick / Richard 111,
and the castle is amazing.
I saw the tomb and it was obvious from the talk that it was not Edward, but
that very weekend a woman came by train from London, taxi to the church and
she placed on the tomb a beautiful display of white roses whilst her taxi
awaited, she said a prayer then left to catch the return train from York !
Dedication.
It was a memorable visit for me.
I do so hope that Richard returns to York.
Many years ago I had a house in Barnard Castle and in the rear wall was the
Boar, so I have always had a connection with Richard as did my mother
before me as she was a true follower of the Warwick's etc, I think she must
have known The Rose of Raby in her past life, and now here am I.
When Ted Seaton discovered The Middleham Jewel, both my mother and I were
fortunate enough to see it and handle it before it was even seen by the
Professionals, I never forget my mother saying to me, this belonged to
Richard, now that was many years ago when I lived in Barnard castle.
Regards Josie
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:54 AM, mariewalsh2003
<[email protected]>wrote:
> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In , Jo Davidson <jdne10@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Has anybody made a visit to Sheriff Hutton near York, the seat of the
> > Neville's family and where Richard held the Council of the North in 1485
> ,
> > . The Castle although in complete ruins is amazing both in size and
> stature
> > and the main gate has 4 Shields above, 3 of the Neville's and the 4th
> being
> > Richard's, the adjoining church of St Helen and the Holy Cross is
> reputedly
> > where their son was brought from Middleham for Burial.
> > Josie D
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Hi Josie,
> Yes, I did visit once. I walked round the fence surrounding the castle
> ruins, then went down to the church to see the tomb. The tomb has now been
> quite clearly identified as belonging to the early years of the 15th
> century and the work of a craftsman working in Yorkshire at that time
> (you've only to look at the hairstyle and dress to see it couldn't belong
> to Richard's era). It has been outside at some point in its history, and
> was therefore probably brought to the church from the ruins of the castle
> chapel - there is no body inside, needless to say. I believe it's thought
> most likely to be the tomb of a child of Ralph Earl of Westmorland and Joan
> Beaufort. At any rate he was somebody's little boy.
> My own feeling, looking at Richard's itinerary, is that Edward of
> Middleham probably lies somewhere in York Minster. So it would be nice if
> Richard could be buried there, but the whole matter needs to be handled
> sensitively as I know we here all agree.
> Marie
>
>
>
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