Barnard Castle, the "murderer" Miles Forrest, and Jo Oops

I can't stand it. The custodians of Barnard Castle are (understandably) trying to get in on the surge of interest in Richard III (anyone in the DL12 postcode can tour the castle two for the price of one), but the article in the Teesdale Mercury describing this phenomenon contains a sentence that made me clench my teeth in suppressed anger: "And legend has it that a Teesdale man, Miles Forest [sic], was given Blagraves House on The Bank by Richard III for killing the two princes in the Tower of London." Miles Forrest is named by Sir Thomas More (and no other chronicler, if More deserves that name) as one of the murderers employed by Sir James Tyrrell--the one who wandered England unpunished by Henry VII--but when did this fantastic tale incorporate the idea that Richard rewarded Forrest with a fine house--or even that Miles Forrest was a Teesdale man? Does the R III legend have branches that even we don't know about, which will now become "fact" thanks to this article?

http://www.teesdalemercury.co.uk/Articles/2013/barnard-castle-celebrates-richard-iii-links

Possible source for this new "legend":

http://www.moonyeenblakey.com/my-heroes-and-villains.html

And Jo "Oops" Appleby is at it again. When will that woman learn the difference between scoliosis and kyphosis? She recently gave a lecture in [New Zealand?] containing the following line: "His spine had this huge curvature. Now, there are two things that British school children know about Richard III - that he was killed in battle, and that he had a hunchback." (If she corrected the false impression created by this excerpt, the article does not say so, and the very fact that the lines were quoted perpetuates the myth.) Not only that, but the article twice refers to "Appleby's team" or "her team" as if she were the person in charge instead of a junior member given the task of unearthing a skeleton that Richard Buckley did not believe was Richard's (possibly, the senior members of the team were more interested in excavating the church).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9012214/Archaeologist-tells-tale-fit-for-king

Anyway, it appears that Dr. Jo owes Richard a debt of gratitude for giving her budding career a huge boost. Too bad she lacks the grace, gratitude, or knowledge to describe his remains properly.

At least BBC History is attempting to raise questions about the R III myths that might be raised by "The White Queen":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/23620012

And someone needs to take Aneurin Barnard aside and give him a clearer idea of the man he at least tried to portray accurately:

http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-news/news/the-white-queens-aneurin-richard-iii-wasnt-that-bad

I know that some of you have already read this interview, but I'm repeating it as a partial antidote to the first two. Aneurin could be the right actor (despite being Welsh) to play Richard in a *good*, historically accurate script--and be recruited, along with the bust of Richard created from his skull--to interest a new generation in finding the truth about Richard.

Okay, I'm done for now. If only I drank wine, I'd probably be heading for the butt of malmsey now. Well, maybe something a little less sweet and sticky.

Carol

I think Miles was constable of Barnard Castle. There are two other possible reasons that More may have named him as murderer:-
1) The boys were actually removed to Barnard Castle, not murdered in the Tower
2) His surnamed fitted. More may have been deliberately creating echoes to the murder of William Rufus. At any rate, he gives us a Tyrell, a Forest and a Green. Will Slaughter was surely picked out for his unfortunate surname.
Marie

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> I can't stand it. The custodians of Barnard Castle are (understandably) trying to get in on the surge of interest in Richard III (anyone in the DL12 postcode can tour the castle two for the price of one), but the article in the Teesdale Mercury describing this phenomenon contains a sentence that made me clench my teeth in suppressed anger: "And legend has it that a Teesdale man, Miles Forest [sic], was given Blagraves House on The Bank by Richard III for killing the two princes in the Tower of London." Miles Forrest is named by Sir Thomas More (and no other chronicler, if More deserves that name) as one of the murderers employed by Sir James Tyrrell--the one who wandered England unpunished by Henry VII--but when did this fantastic tale incorporate the idea that Richard rewarded Forrest with a fine house--or even that Miles Forrest was a Teesdale man? Does the R III legend have branches that even we don't know about, which will now become "fact" thanks to this article?
>
> http://www.teesdalemercury.co.uk/Articles/2013/barnard-castle-celebrates-richard-iii-links
>
> Possible source for this new "legend":
>
> http://www.moonyeenblakey.com/my-heroes-and-villains.html
>
> And Jo "Oops" Appleby is at it again. When will that woman learn the difference between scoliosis and kyphosis? She recently gave a lecture in [New Zealand?] containing the following line: "His spine had this huge curvature. Now, there are two things that British school children know about Richard III - that he was killed in battle, and that he had a hunchback." (If she corrected the false impression created by this excerpt, the article does not say so, and the very fact that the lines were quoted perpetuates the myth.) Not only that, but the article twice refers to "Appleby's team" or "her team" as if she were the person in charge instead of a junior member given the task of unearthing a skeleton that Richard Buckley did not believe was Richard's (possibly, the senior members of the team were more interested in excavating the church).
>
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9012214/Archaeologist-tells-tale-fit-for-king
>
> Anyway, it appears that Dr. Jo owes Richard a debt of gratitude for giving her budding career a huge boost. Too bad she lacks the grace, gratitude, or knowledge to describe his remains properly.
>
> At least BBC History is attempting to raise questions about the R III myths that might be raised by "The White Queen":
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/23620012
>
> And someone needs to take Aneurin Barnard aside and give him a clearer idea of the man he at least tried to portray accurately:
>
> http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-news/news/the-white-queens-aneurin-richard-iii-wasnt-that-bad
>
> I know that some of you have already read this interview, but I'm repeating it as a partial antidote to the first two. Aneurin could be the right actor (despite being Welsh) to play Richard in a *good*, historically accurate script--and be recruited, along with the bust of Richard created from his skull--to interest a new generation in finding the truth about Richard.
>
> Okay, I'm done for now. If only I drank wine, I'd probably be heading for the butt of malmsey now. Well, maybe something a little less sweet and sticky.
>
> Carol
>

I know exactly why you're so mad about it all, Carol. It's endless, but at least, now, after all this time, Richard also gets a good press. Not so very long ago that would very seldom have been the case. We *are* winning, I'm sure of it. Onward and upward.

Sandra
=^..^=

From: justcarol67
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 7:48 PM
To:
Subject: Barnard Castle, the "murderer" Miles Forrest, and Jo Oops


I can't stand it. The custodians of Barnard Castle are (understandably) trying to get in on the surge of interest in Richard III (anyone in the DL12 postcode can tour the castle two for the price of one), but the article in the Teesdale Mercury describing this phenomenon contains a sentence that made me clench my teeth in suppressed anger: "And legend has it that a Teesdale man, Miles Forest [sic], was given Blagraves House on The Bank by Richard III for killing the two princes in the Tower of London." Miles Forrest is named by Sir Thomas More (and no other chronicler, if More deserves that name) as one of the murderers employed by Sir James Tyrrell--the one who wandered England unpunished by Henry VII--but when did this fantastic tale incorporate the idea that Richard rewarded Forrest with a fine house--or even that Miles Forrest was a Teesdale man? Does the R III legend have branches that even we don't know about, which will now become "fact" thanks to this article?

http://www.teesdalemercury.co.uk/Articles/2013/barnard-castle-celebrates-richard-iii-links

Possible source for this new "legend":

http://www.moonyeenblakey.com/my-heroes-and-villains.html

And Jo "Oops" Appleby is at it again. When will that woman learn the difference between scoliosis and kyphosis? She recently gave a lecture in [New Zealand?] containing the following line: "His spine had this huge curvature. Now, there are two things that British school children know about Richard III - that he was killed in battle, and that he had a hunchback." (If she corrected the false impression created by this excerpt, the article does not say so, and the very fact that the lines were quoted perpetuates the myth.) Not only that, but the article twice refers to "Appleby's team" or "her team" as if she were the person in charge instead of a junior member given the task of unearthing a skeleton that Richard Buckley did not believe was Richard's (possibly, the senior members of the team were more interested in excavating the church).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9012214/Archaeologist-tells-tale-fit-for-king

Anyway, it appears that Dr. Jo owes Richard a debt of gratitude for giving her budding career a huge boost. Too bad she lacks the grace, gratitude, or knowledge to describe his remains properly.

At least BBC History is attempting to raise questions about the R III myths that might be raised by "The White Queen":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/23620012

And someone needs to take Aneurin Barnard aside and give him a clearer idea of the man he at least tried to portray accurately:

http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-news/news/the-white-queens-aneurin-richard-iii-wasnt-that-bad

I know that some of you have already read this interview, but I'm repeating it as a partial antidote to the first two. Aneurin could be the right actor (despite being Welsh) to play Richard in a *good*, historically accurate script--and be recruited, along with the bust of Richard created from his skull--to interest a new generation in finding the truth about Richard.

Okay, I'm done for now. If only I drank wine, I'd probably be heading for the butt of malmsey now. Well, maybe something a little less sweet and sticky.

Carol

Don't be too angry at Barnard Castle, Carol. I know the area fairly well - my aunty just lives over the hill from there. The Teesdale Mercury is a local paper (actually the only privately-owned newspaper in the UK) and does actually say this is a local legend ie. there is no proof for it. The paper has run a lot of very positive pro-Richard pieces over many years. Richard had intended to set up a college of priests at the church in Barnard Castle but double the size of the college in Middleham. Blagraves House does actually have a carved boar on the stonework of one of its private staircases, and Miles Forrest is connected with the castle. The Tudor rumour mill, plus More, does the rest.

The castle in Barnard Castle has a Ricardian flag permanently aloft outside its entrance, plus Ricardian boars on the wooden play-castle in the children's park next to it, and a Ricardian boar as one of the "devices" for its miniature golf course. Also the town coat of arms has had Richard's boar on it for centuries. The town museum is currently exhibiting another major stone-sculpted boar that was originally positioned on a building in the centre of the town.

I have heard local historians from Barnard Castle state that the Forrests also had a farm on the road heading from the town out towards Middleton-in-Teesdale but I have never been able to track down which farm this refers to or whether any trace of a medieval building still exists on the site.

The town is very proud of its link with Richard - and with Brackenbury (the castle has a tower named for him) - and there is more than a possibility that Richard brought the princes from London to somewhere like Barnard Castle - not quite as in the public eye as Sheriff Hutton - and as Marie says, this might be part of the reason for the generosity which endowed Miles Forrest with Blagraves.

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> I can't stand it. The custodians of Barnard Castle are (understandably) trying to get in on the surge of interest in Richard III (anyone in the DL12 postcode can tour the castle two for the price of one), but the article in the Teesdale Mercury describing this phenomenon contains a sentence that made me clench my teeth in suppressed anger: "And legend has it that a Teesdale man, Miles Forest [sic], was given Blagraves House on The Bank by Richard III for killing the two princes in the Tower of London." Miles Forrest is named by Sir Thomas More (and no other chronicler, if More deserves that name) as one of the murderers employed by Sir James Tyrrell--the one who wandered England unpunished by Henry VII--but when did this fantastic tale incorporate the idea that Richard rewarded Forrest with a fine house--or even that Miles Forrest was a Teesdale man? Does the R III legend have branches that even we don't know about, which will now become "fact" thanks to this article?
>
> http://www.teesdalemercury.co.uk/Articles/2013/barnard-castle-celebrates-richard-iii-links
>
> Possible source for this new "legend":
>
> http://www.moonyeenblakey.com/my-heroes-and-villains.html
>
> And Jo "Oops" Appleby is at it again. When will that woman learn the difference between scoliosis and kyphosis? She recently gave a lecture in [New Zealand?] containing the following line: "His spine had this huge curvature. Now, there are two things that British school children know about Richard III - that he was killed in battle, and that he had a hunchback." (If she corrected the false impression created by this excerpt, the article does not say so, and the very fact that the lines were quoted perpetuates the myth.) Not only that, but the article twice refers to "Appleby's team" or "her team" as if she were the person in charge instead of a junior member given the task of unearthing a skeleton that Richard Buckley did not believe was Richard's (possibly, the senior members of the team were more interested in excavating the church).
>
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9012214/Archaeologist-tells-tale-fit-for-king
>
> Anyway, it appears that Dr. Jo owes Richard a debt of gratitude for giving her budding career a huge boost. Too bad she lacks the grace, gratitude, or knowledge to describe his remains properly.
>
> At least BBC History is attempting to raise questions about the R III myths that might be raised by "The White Queen":
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/23620012
>
> And someone needs to take Aneurin Barnard aside and give him a clearer idea of the man he at least tried to portray accurately:
>
> http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-news/news/the-white-queens-aneurin-richard-iii-wasnt-that-bad
>
> I know that some of you have already read this interview, but I'm repeating it as a partial antidote to the first two. Aneurin could be the right actor (despite being Welsh) to play Richard in a *good*, historically accurate script--and be recruited, along with the bust of Richard created from his skull--to interest a new generation in finding the truth about Richard.
>
> Okay, I'm done for now. If only I drank wine, I'd probably be heading for the butt of malmsey now. Well, maybe something a little less sweet and sticky.
>
> Carol
>

Thoroughly agree, there's far more pro Ricardians now given public airing than ever before. And long may it continue!

Sharon

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> I know exactly why you’re so mad about it all, Carol. It’s endless, but at least, now, after all this time, Richard also gets a good press. Not so very long ago that would very seldom have been the case. We *are* winning, I’m sure of it. Onward and upward.
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=
>
> From: justcarol67
> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 7:48 PM
> To:
> Subject: Barnard Castle, the "murderer" Miles Forrest, and Jo Oops
>
>
> I can't stand it. The custodians of Barnard Castle are (understandably) trying to get in on the surge of interest in Richard III (anyone in the DL12 postcode can tour the castle two for the price of one), but the article in the Teesdale Mercury describing this phenomenon contains a sentence that made me clench my teeth in suppressed anger: "And legend has it that a Teesdale man, Miles Forest [sic], was given Blagraves House on The Bank by Richard III for killing the two princes in the Tower of London." Miles Forrest is named by Sir Thomas More (and no other chronicler, if More deserves that name) as one of the murderers employed by Sir James Tyrrell--the one who wandered England unpunished by Henry VII--but when did this fantastic tale incorporate the idea that Richard rewarded Forrest with a fine house--or even that Miles Forrest was a Teesdale man? Does the R III legend have branches that even we don't know about, which will now become "fact" thanks to this article?
>
> http://www.teesdalemercury.co.uk/Articles/2013/barnard-castle-celebrates-richard-iii-links
>
> Possible source for this new "legend":
>
> http://www.moonyeenblakey.com/my-heroes-and-villains.html
>
> And Jo "Oops" Appleby is at it again. When will that woman learn the difference between scoliosis and kyphosis? She recently gave a lecture in [New Zealand?] containing the following line: "His spine had this huge curvature. Now, there are two things that British school children know about Richard III - that he was killed in battle, and that he had a hunchback." (If she corrected the false impression created by this excerpt, the article does not say so, and the very fact that the lines were quoted perpetuates the myth.) Not only that, but the article twice refers to "Appleby's team" or "her team" as if she were the person in charge instead of a junior member given the task of unearthing a skeleton that Richard Buckley did not believe was Richard's (possibly, the senior members of the team were more interested in excavating the church).
>
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9012214/Archaeologist-tells-tale-fit-for-king
>
> Anyway, it appears that Dr. Jo owes Richard a debt of gratitude for giving her budding career a huge boost. Too bad she lacks the grace, gratitude, or knowledge to describe his remains properly.
>
> At least BBC History is attempting to raise questions about the R III myths that might be raised by "The White Queen":
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/23620012
>
> And someone needs to take Aneurin Barnard aside and give him a clearer idea of the man he at least tried to portray accurately:
>
> http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-news/news/the-white-queens-aneurin-richard-iii-wasnt-that-bad
>
> I know that some of you have already read this interview, but I'm repeating it as a partial antidote to the first two. Aneurin could be the right actor (despite being Welsh) to play Richard in a *good*, historically accurate script--and be recruited, along with the bust of Richard created from his skull--to interest a new generation in finding the truth about Richard.
>
> Okay, I'm done for now. If only I drank wine, I'd probably be heading for the butt of malmsey now. Well, maybe something a little less sweet and sticky.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

And the boys would have been living with their grandmother, Cicely Neville, who was still at the castle and who very likely would have shared Richard's desire to keep them well away from the Wydevilles.

Tamara



--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I think Miles was constable of Barnard Castle. There are two other possible reasons that More may have named him as murderer:-
> 1) The boys were actually removed to Barnard Castle, not murdered in the Tower
> 2) His surnamed fitted. More may have been deliberately creating echoes to the murder of William Rufus. At any rate, he gives us a Tyrell, a Forest and a Green. Will Slaughter was surely picked out for his unfortunate surname.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > I can't stand it. The custodians of Barnard Castle are (understandably) trying to get in on the surge of interest in Richard III (anyone in the DL12 postcode can tour the castle two for the price of one), but the article in the Teesdale Mercury describing this phenomenon contains a sentence that made me clench my teeth in suppressed anger: "And legend has it that a Teesdale man, Miles Forest [sic], was given Blagraves House on The Bank by Richard III for killing the two princes in the Tower of London." Miles Forrest is named by Sir Thomas More (and no other chronicler, if More deserves that name) as one of the murderers employed by Sir James Tyrrell--the one who wandered England unpunished by Henry VII--but when did this fantastic tale incorporate the idea that Richard rewarded Forrest with a fine house--or even that Miles Forrest was a Teesdale man? Does the R III legend have branches that even we don't know about, which will now become "fact" thanks to this article?
> >
> > http://www.teesdalemercury.co.uk/Articles/2013/barnard-castle-celebrates-richard-iii-links
> >
> > Possible source for this new "legend":
> >
> > http://www.moonyeenblakey.com/my-heroes-and-villains.html
> >
> > And Jo "Oops" Appleby is at it again. When will that woman learn the difference between scoliosis and kyphosis? She recently gave a lecture in [New Zealand?] containing the following line: "His spine had this huge curvature. Now, there are two things that British school children know about Richard III - that he was killed in battle, and that he had a hunchback." (If she corrected the false impression created by this excerpt, the article does not say so, and the very fact that the lines were quoted perpetuates the myth.) Not only that, but the article twice refers to "Appleby's team" or "her team" as if she were the person in charge instead of a junior member given the task of unearthing a skeleton that Richard Buckley did not believe was Richard's (possibly, the senior members of the team were more interested in excavating the church).
> >
> > http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9012214/Archaeologist-tells-tale-fit-for-king
> >
> > Anyway, it appears that Dr. Jo owes Richard a debt of gratitude for giving her budding career a huge boost. Too bad she lacks the grace, gratitude, or knowledge to describe his remains properly.
> >
> > At least BBC History is attempting to raise questions about the R III myths that might be raised by "The White Queen":
> >
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/23620012
> >
> > And someone needs to take Aneurin Barnard aside and give him a clearer idea of the man he at least tried to portray accurately:
> >
> > http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-news/news/the-white-queens-aneurin-richard-iii-wasnt-that-bad
> >
> > I know that some of you have already read this interview, but I'm repeating it as a partial antidote to the first two. Aneurin could be the right actor (despite being Welsh) to play Richard in a *good*, historically accurate script--and be recruited, along with the bust of Richard created from his skull--to interest a new generation in finding the truth about Richard.
> >
> > Okay, I'm done for now. If only I drank wine, I'd probably be heading for the butt of malmsey now. Well, maybe something a little less sweet and sticky.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>

--- In , colyngbourne <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Don't be too angry at Barnard Castle, Carol. I know the area fairly well - my aunty just lives over the hill from there. The Teesdale Mercury is a local paper (actually the only privately-owned newspaper in the UK) and does actually say this is a local legend ie. there is no proof for it. The paper has run a lot of very positive pro-Richard pieces over many years. Richard had intended to set up a college of priests at the church in Barnard Castle but double the size of the college in Middleham. Blagraves House does actually have a carved boar on the stonework of one of its private staircases, and Miles Forrest is connected with the castle. The Tudor rumour mill, plus More, does the rest.
>
> The castle in Barnard Castle has a Ricardian flag permanently aloft outside its entrance, plus Ricardian boars on the wooden play-castle in the children's park next to it, and a Ricardian boar as one of the "devices" for its miniature golf course. Also the town coat of arms has had Richard's boar on it for centuries. The town museum is currently exhibiting another major stone-sculpted boar that was originally positioned on a building in the centre of the town.
>
> I have heard local historians from Barnard Castle state that the Forrests also had a farm on the road heading from the town out towards Middleton-in-Teesdale but I have never been able to track down which farm this refers to or whether any trace of a medieval building still exists on the site.
>
> The town is very proud of its link with Richard - and with Brackenbury (the castle has a tower named for him) - and there is more than a possibility that Richard brought the princes from London to somewhere like Barnard Castle - not quite as in the public eye as Sheriff Hutton - and as Marie says, this might be part of the reason for the generosity which endowed Miles Forrest with Blagraves.

Carol responds:

Thank you to both you and Marie. But poor Miles, forever "a fellow fleshed in murther before time" thanks to Sir Thomas. I wonder how More discovered his name as a Richard III connection and why he chose him as one of the murderers. A grudge against the Forrest family?

Marie, can you develop the William Rufus connection a bit? What connection do you see there? I just remembered that Miles was not the "murderer" who was left alive after Tyrrell's execution (that was Dighton). Miles "rotted away piecemeal"--as I suspect More did, too once he was in his grave.

I take it you've been to Barnard Castle, Col. Do you recommend it as part of a self-guided Ricardian tour? Also, does anyone know of any articles about the supposed murderers and why More might have chosen those names? (I have my own theories, which you've probably already encountered here, about why he chose Tyrrell, so I'm mostly asking about Forrest and Dighton. (Was Dighton really Tyrrell's horsekeeper? Seems odd since Tyrrell himself was Richard's Master of the Horse.) Will Slaughter I take to be an invented character or else a name that More had once heard and found "appropriate" to his Babes in the Woods fairytale.

Carol

Yes, I'm pretty familiar with the town and its various tourist trails and sightseeing opportunities - it's well worth a visit for the Ricardian stuff, but there is a good museum there too and lots of decent antique shops (and tea shops too).

Col

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> I take it you've been to Barnard Castle, Col. Do you recommend it as part of a self-guided Ricardian tour? Also, does anyone know of any articles about the supposed murderers and why More might have chosen those names? (I have my own theories, which you've probably already encountered here, about why he chose Tyrrell, so I'm mostly asking about Forrest and Dighton. (Was Dighton really Tyrrell's horsekeeper? Seems odd since Tyrrell himself was Richard's Master of the Horse.) Will Slaughter I take to be an invented character or else a name that More had once heard and found "appropriate" to his Babes in the Woods fairytale.
>
> Carol
>

I went to Barnie for the first time this June and it's a lovely town. Don't forget to find the boar above an outer window near the chancel of the church and one of the chancel arch headstops is also of Richard. The boar above the oriel window of the castle is now sadly decaying and is hard to spot if you don't know what it is! There's a fantastic second hand bookshop there too!

Sharon

--- In , colyngbourne <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm pretty familiar with the town and its various tourist trails and sightseeing opportunities - it's well worth a visit for the Ricardian stuff, but there is a good museum there too and lots of decent antique shops (and tea shops too).
>
> Col
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > I take it you've been to Barnard Castle, Col. Do you recommend it as part of a self-guided Ricardian tour? Also, does anyone know of any articles about the supposed murderers and why More might have chosen those names? (I have my own theories, which you've probably already encountered here, about why he chose Tyrrell, so I'm mostly asking about Forrest and Dighton. (Was Dighton really Tyrrell's horsekeeper? Seems odd since Tyrrell himself was Richard's Master of the Horse.) Will Slaughter I take to be an invented character or else a name that More had once heard and found "appropriate" to his Babes in the Woods fairytale.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>

Carol wrote:
" Marie, can you develop the William Rufus connection a bit? What connection do you see there? I just remembered that Miles was not the "murderer" who was left alive after Tyrrell's execution (that was Dighton). Miles "rotted away piecemeal"--as I suspect More did, too once he was in his grave."

Marie replies: Nothing to develop, really, All I'm suggesting is that More chose names that would resonate with regicide. There had been a few murdered kings, but only one known culprit, Walter *Tyrell*, who *slaughter*ed William Rufus in the New *Forest*: in the *green*wood. Dighton is a bit less obvious: perhaps meant to sound like 'dig' (as in dig a grave) and/or 'indict'. It's only an idea, anyway.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Carol wrote:
> " Marie, can you develop the William Rufus connection a bit? What connection do you see there? I just remembered that Miles was not the "murderer" who was left alive after Tyrrell's execution (that was Dighton). Miles "rotted away piecemeal"--as I suspect More did, too once he was in his grave."
>
> Marie replies: Nothing to develop, really, All I'm suggesting is that More chose names that would resonate with regicide. There had been a few murdered kings, but only one known culprit, Walter *Tyrell*, who *slaughter*ed William Rufus in the New *Forest*: in the *green*wood. Dighton is a bit less obvious: perhaps meant to sound like 'dig' (as in dig a grave) and/or 'indict'. It's only an idea, anyway.
>
Carol responds:

Only an idea but a very clever one. If his target audience was Polydore Vergil, Vergil might have understood and appreciated the joke (without thinking any better of Richard, unfortunately). The question is whether he had any sense of humor whatever, especially regarding serious matters like a supposed murder. I do think that Poly, whatever his faults, would have recognized the whole story as a figment of More's vivid imagination.

Of course, we've already discussed the reasons for Vergil's bringing Tyrell into the story. Maybe More made a mental association between the two Tyrells, and the rest of his fable follows from there.

Carol

Oh no!! just read the article you posted on Aneurin Barnard, he believes Richard murdered the Princes and that Anne was putting pressure on him. Philippa Gregory has a lot to answer for. She won't be happy until The White Queen" is on the history curriculum as the official version of the WOTR. --- In , <justcarol67@...> wrote: I can't stand it. The custodians of Barnard Castle are (understandably) trying to get in on the surge of interest in Richard III (anyone in the DL12 postcode can tour the castle two for the price of one), but the article in the Teesdale Mercury describing this phenomenon contains a sentence that made me clench my teeth in suppressed anger: "And legend has it that a Teesdale man, Miles Forest [sic], was given Blagraves House on The Bank by Richard III for killing the two princes in the Tower of London." Miles Forrest is named by Sir Thomas More (and no other chronicler, if More deserves that name) as one of the murderers employed by Sir James Tyrrell--the one who wandered England unpunished by Henry VII--but when did this fantastic tale incorporate the idea that Richard rewarded Forrest with a fine house--or even that Miles Forrest was a Teesdale man? Does the R III legend have branches that even we don't know about, which will now become "fact" thanks to this article?

http://www.teesdalemercury.co.uk/Articles/2013/barnard-castle-celebrates-richard-iii-links

Possible source for this new "legend":

http://www.moonyeenblakey.com/my-heroes-and-villains.html

And Jo "Oops" Appleby is at it again. When will that woman learn the difference between scoliosis and kyphosis? She recently gave a lecture in [New Zealand?] containing the following line: "His spine had this huge curvature. Now, there are two things that British school children know about Richard III - that he was killed in battle, and that he had a hunchback." (If she corrected the false impression created by this excerpt, the article does not say so, and the very fact that the lines were quoted perpetuates the myth.) Not only that, but the article twice refers to "Appleby's team" or "her team" as if she were the person in charge instead of a junior member given the task of unearthing a skeleton that Richard Buckley did not believe was Richard's (possibly, the senior members of the team were more interested in excavating the church).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9012214/Archaeologist-tells-tale-fit-for-king

Anyway, it appears that Dr. Jo owes Richard a debt of gratitude for giving her budding career a huge boost. Too bad she lacks the grace, gratitude, or knowledge to describe his remains properly.

At least BBC History is attempting to raise questions about the R III myths that might be raised by "The White Queen":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/23620012

And someone needs to take Aneurin Barnard aside and give him a clearer idea of the man he at least tried to portray accurately:

http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-news/news/the-white-queens-aneurin-richard-iii-wasnt-that-bad

I know that some of you have already read this interview, but I'm repeating it as a partial antidote to the first two. Aneurin could be the right actor (despite being Welsh) to play Richard in a *good*, historically accurate script--and be recruited, along with the bust of Richard created from his skull--to interest a new generation in finding the truth about Richard.

Okay, I'm done for now. If only I drank wine, I'd probably be heading for the butt of malmsey now. Well, maybe something a little less sweet and sticky.

Carol