Catesby confusion
Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 02:45:32
Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only a
knight later
.
T
ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
William Catesby, knight
2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
William Catesby
3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
William Catesby
4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
William Catesby
5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
William Catesby, knight
6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
William Catesby
7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
William Catesby
8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
William Catesby
9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
William Catesby
, knight
10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
William Catesby
A J
Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only a
knight later
.
T
ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
William Catesby, knight
2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
William Catesby
3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
William Catesby
4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
William Catesby
5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
William Catesby, knight
6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
William Catesby
7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
William Catesby
8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
William Catesby
9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
William Catesby
, knight
10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
William Catesby
A J
Re: Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 09:26:58
Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was Sir John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in fact their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several Commissions of the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and before. H.
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
Subject: Catesby confusion
Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only a
knight later
.
T
ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
William Catesby, knight
2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
William Catesby
3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
William Catesby
4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
William Catesby
5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
William Catesby, knight
6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
William Catesby
7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
William Catesby
8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
William Catesby
9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
William Catesby
, knight
10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
William Catesby
A J
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
Subject: Catesby confusion
Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only a
knight later
.
T
ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
William Catesby, knight
2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
William Catesby
3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
William Catesby
4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
William Catesby
5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
William Catesby, knight
6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
William Catesby
7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
William Catesby
8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
William Catesby
9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
William Catesby
, knight
10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
William Catesby
A J
Re: Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 13:43:29
Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there yet
another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
commissions???
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was Sir
> John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in fact
> their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several Commissions of
> the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> before. H.
>
> ________________________________
> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> Subject: Catesby confusion
>
>
>
>
>
> Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only a
> knight later
> .
>
> T
> ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
>
> NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> William Catesby, knight
>
> 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> William Catesby, knight
>
> 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> William Catesby
> , knight
>
> 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> William Catesby
>
> A J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there yet
another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
commissions???
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was Sir
> John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in fact
> their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several Commissions of
> the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> before. H.
>
> ________________________________
> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> Subject: Catesby confusion
>
>
>
>
>
> Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only a
> knight later
> .
>
> T
> ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
>
> NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> William Catesby, knight
>
> 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> William Catesby, knight
>
> 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> William Catesby
>
> 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> William Catesby
> , knight
>
> 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> William Catesby
>
> A J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 14:05:36
I suspect the later "knight" entries were clerical errors. The folk at Westminster often weren't clear about what was occurring in the area in question. I've come across a few cases of dead men being reappointed to commissions of the peace for a year or two after their demise. The 1483 entry looks likely to have been an error based on William's blossoming status. There's one like that for Thomas Metcalfe (Miles' elder brother), whom Richard had appointed as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
I think there is at least one more reference to William Catesby as "knight" from Richard's reign, but the majority of references have him as esquire. Was he one of Richard's body servants by any chance? If so, you could look to see whether he was classified as a knight or an esquire of the Body.
There weren't two William Catesbys at this period, but there were two John Catesbys, one a knight and the other not, who have often been confused with each other.
Marie
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there yet
> another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> commissions???
>
> A J
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was Sir
> > John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in fact
> > their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several Commissions of
> > the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> > before. H.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> > To: "" <
> > >
> > Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> > Subject: Catesby confusion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> > Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> > suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> > sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only a
> > knight later
> > .
> >
> > T
> > ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> >
> > NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> > 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > William Catesby, knight
> >
> > 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> > William Catesby, knight
> >
> > 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > William Catesby
> > , knight
> >
> > 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
I think there is at least one more reference to William Catesby as "knight" from Richard's reign, but the majority of references have him as esquire. Was he one of Richard's body servants by any chance? If so, you could look to see whether he was classified as a knight or an esquire of the Body.
There weren't two William Catesbys at this period, but there were two John Catesbys, one a knight and the other not, who have often been confused with each other.
Marie
--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there yet
> another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> commissions???
>
> A J
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was Sir
> > John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in fact
> > their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several Commissions of
> > the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> > before. H.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> > To: "" <
> > >
> > Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> > Subject: Catesby confusion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> > Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> > suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> > sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only a
> > knight later
> > .
> >
> > T
> > ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> >
> > NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> > 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > William Catesby, knight
> >
> > 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> > William Catesby, knight
> >
> > 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > William Catesby
> > , knight
> >
> > 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> > William Catesby
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 14:08:30
See "Catesbys" under "Files". Just the two, I think.
----- Original Message -----
From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Catesby confusion
> Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there yet
> another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> commissions???
>
> A J
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was Sir
>> John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in fact
>> their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several Commissions
>> of
>> the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
>> before. H.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
>> To: "" <
>> >
>> Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
>> Subject: Catesby confusion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
>> Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
>> suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
>> sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only
>> a
>> knight later
>> .
>>
>> T
>> ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
>>
>> NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
>> 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
>> William Catesby, knight
>>
>> 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
>> William Catesby, knight
>>
>> 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
>> William Catesby
>> , knight
>>
>> 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> A J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Catesby confusion
> Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there yet
> another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> commissions???
>
> A J
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was Sir
>> John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in fact
>> their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several Commissions
>> of
>> the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
>> before. H.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
>> To: "" <
>> >
>> Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
>> Subject: Catesby confusion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
>> Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
>> suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
>> sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was only
>> a
>> knight later
>> .
>>
>> T
>> ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
>>
>> NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
>> 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
>> William Catesby, knight
>>
>> 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
>> William Catesby, knight
>>
>> 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
>> William Catesby
>> , knight
>>
>> 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
>> William Catesby
>>
>> A J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 15:43:58
Thanks Stephen - very helpful.
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:09 AM, Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> See "Catesbys" under "Files". Just the two, I think.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Catesby confusion
>
> > Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> > 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> > called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> > between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> > wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there
> yet
> > another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> > commissions???
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >> **
>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was
> Sir
> >> John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in
> fact
> >> their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several
> Commissions
> >> of
> >> the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> >> before. H.
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> >> To: "" <
> >> >
> >> Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> >> Subject: Catesby confusion
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> >> Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> >> suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> >> sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was
> only
> >> a
> >> knight later
> >> .
> >>
> >> T
> >> ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> >>
> >> NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> >> 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> >> William Catesby, knight
> >>
> >> 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> >> William Catesby, knight
> >>
> >> 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >> , knight
> >>
> >> 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> A J
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:09 AM, Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> See "Catesbys" under "Files". Just the two, I think.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A J Hibbard" <ajhibbard@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Catesby confusion
>
> > Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> > 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> > called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> > between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> > wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there
> yet
> > another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> > commissions???
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >> **
>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was
> Sir
> >> John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in
> fact
> >> their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several
> Commissions
> >> of
> >> the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> >> before. H.
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> >> To: "" <
> >> >
> >> Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> >> Subject: Catesby confusion
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> >> Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> >> suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> >> sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was
> only
> >> a
> >> knight later
> >> .
> >>
> >> T
> >> ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> >>
> >> NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> >> 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> >> William Catesby, knight
> >>
> >> 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> >> William Catesby, knight
> >>
> >> 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >> , knight
> >>
> >> 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> >> William Catesby
> >>
> >> A J
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Re: Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 15:45:36
Thanks Marie. Eventually I hope to have a better grasp on who all the
gentry were, so will save your e-mail for future reference.
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:05 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>wrote:
> **
>
>
> I suspect the later "knight" entries were clerical errors. The folk at
> Westminster often weren't clear about what was occurring in the area in
> question. I've come across a few cases of dead men being reappointed to
> commissions of the peace for a year or two after their demise. The 1483
> entry looks likely to have been an error based on William's blossoming
> status. There's one like that for Thomas Metcalfe (Miles' elder brother),
> whom Richard had appointed as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
> I think there is at least one more reference to William Catesby as
> "knight" from Richard's reign, but the majority of references have him as
> esquire. Was he one of Richard's body servants by any chance? If so, you
> could look to see whether he was classified as a knight or an esquire of
> the Body.
> There weren't two William Catesbys at this period, but there were two John
> Catesbys, one a knight and the other not, who have often been confused with
> each other.
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> > 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> > called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> > between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> > wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there
> yet
> > another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> > commissions???
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was
> Sir
> > > John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in
> fact
> > > their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several
> Commissions of
> > > the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> > > before. H.
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
>
> > > To: "" <
> > > >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> > > Subject: Catesby confusion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> > > Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> > > suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> > > sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was
> only a
> > > knight later
> > > .
> > >
> > > T
> > > ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> > >
> > > NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> > > 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > William Catesby, knight
> > >
> > > 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> > > William Catesby, knight
> > >
> > > 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > > , knight
> > >
> > > 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
gentry were, so will save your e-mail for future reference.
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:05 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>wrote:
> **
>
>
> I suspect the later "knight" entries were clerical errors. The folk at
> Westminster often weren't clear about what was occurring in the area in
> question. I've come across a few cases of dead men being reappointed to
> commissions of the peace for a year or two after their demise. The 1483
> entry looks likely to have been an error based on William's blossoming
> status. There's one like that for Thomas Metcalfe (Miles' elder brother),
> whom Richard had appointed as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
> I think there is at least one more reference to William Catesby as
> "knight" from Richard's reign, but the majority of references have him as
> esquire. Was he one of Richard's body servants by any chance? If so, you
> could look to see whether he was classified as a knight or an esquire of
> the Body.
> There weren't two William Catesbys at this period, but there were two John
> Catesbys, one a knight and the other not, who have often been confused with
> each other.
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> > 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> > called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> > between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> > wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there
> yet
> > another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> > commissions???
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was
> Sir
> > > John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in
> fact
> > > their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several
> Commissions of
> > > the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> > > before. H.
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
>
> > > To: "" <
> > > >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> > > Subject: Catesby confusion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> > > Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> > > suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> > > sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was
> only a
> > > knight later
> > > .
> > >
> > > T
> > > ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> > >
> > > NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> > > 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > William Catesby, knight
> > >
> > > 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> > > William Catesby, knight
> > >
> > > 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > > , knight
> > >
> > > 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Re: Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 19:27:40
I know you're looking at Commissions at the moment, but another geographical area worth looking at as well as the South West is the Northants/Warks/Oxon/Leics/Bucks borders, often called by the genealogists 'Banburyshire'. Here we have the heady mix of the Talbot/Butlers, the Buter/Ormondes, the Catesbys, the Hastings, the Lovells, the Pargiter/Washingtons (yes George's ancestors), the Throckmortons, the Sutton-Dudleys, Empson and Reggie Bray and on the border Thomas, Lord Dorset. I am still trying to get my head round the politics of them all, but some, as you can see from the names, were to become recusants/plotters in the not too distant future. H.
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 15:45
Subject: Re: Catesby confusion
Thanks Marie. Eventually I hope to have a better grasp on who all the
gentry were, so will save your e-mail for future reference.
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:05 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>wrote:
> **
>
>
> I suspect the later "knight" entries were clerical errors. The folk at
> Westminster often weren't clear about what was occurring in the area in
> question. I've come across a few cases of dead men being reappointed to
> commissions of the peace for a year or two after their demise. The 1483
> entry looks likely to have been an error based on William's blossoming
> status. There's one like that for Thomas Metcalfe (Miles' elder brother),
> whom Richard had appointed as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
> I think there is at least one more reference to William Catesby as
> "knight" from Richard's reign, but the majority of references have him as
> esquire. Was he one of Richard's body servants by any chance? If so, you
> could look to see whether he was classified as a knight or an esquire of
> the Body.
> There weren't two William Catesbys at this period, but there were two John
> Catesbys, one a knight and the other not, who have often been confused with
> each other.
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> > 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> > called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> > between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> > wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there
> yet
> > another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> > commissions???
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was
> Sir
> > > John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in
> fact
> > > their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several
> Commissions of
> > > the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> > > before. H.
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
>
> > > To: "" <
> > > >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> > > Subject: Catesby confusion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> > > Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> > > suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> > > sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was
> only a
> > > knight later
> > > .
> > >
> > > T
> > > ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> > >
> > > NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> > > 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > William Catesby, knight
> > >
> > > 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> > > William Catesby, knight
> > >
> > > 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > > , knight
> > >
> > > 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
________________________________
From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 15:45
Subject: Re: Catesby confusion
Thanks Marie. Eventually I hope to have a better grasp on who all the
gentry were, so will save your e-mail for future reference.
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:05 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>wrote:
> **
>
>
> I suspect the later "knight" entries were clerical errors. The folk at
> Westminster often weren't clear about what was occurring in the area in
> question. I've come across a few cases of dead men being reappointed to
> commissions of the peace for a year or two after their demise. The 1483
> entry looks likely to have been an error based on William's blossoming
> status. There's one like that for Thomas Metcalfe (Miles' elder brother),
> whom Richard had appointed as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
> I think there is at least one more reference to William Catesby as
> "knight" from Richard's reign, but the majority of references have him as
> esquire. Was he one of Richard's body servants by any chance? If so, you
> could look to see whether he was classified as a knight or an esquire of
> the Body.
> There weren't two William Catesbys at this period, but there were two John
> Catesbys, one a knight and the other not, who have often been confused with
> each other.
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> > 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his being
> > called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical confusion
> > between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> > wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there
> yet
> > another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> > commissions???
> >
> > A J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was
> Sir
> > > John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in
> fact
> > > their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several
> Commissions of
> > > the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century and
> > > before. H.
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
>
> > > To: "" <
> > > >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> > > Subject: Catesby confusion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> > > Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> > > suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> > > sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was
> only a
> > > knight later
> > > .
> > >
> > > T
> > > ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> > >
> > > NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> > > 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > William Catesby, knight
> > >
> > > 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> > > William Catesby, knight
> > >
> > > 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > > , knight
> > >
> > > 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> > > William Catesby
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Catesby confusion
2013-08-27 20:08:08
Thanks. I've encountered plenty of these names already in the lists of the
commissions. It's looking as if several patterns are emerging - one, for
example, being the men who appear on commission after commission from
Edward IV through Henry VII. Guess they knew how to keep a low enough
profile to keep their heads & their possessions.
Anyway, maybe the various patterns will prove good ground for speculation,
even if we can't have any more "proof" of anything than we currently have.
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> I know you're looking at Commissions at the moment, but another
> geographical area worth looking at as well as the South West is the
> Northants/Warks/Oxon/Leics/Bucks borders, often called by the
> genealogists 'Banburyshire'. Here we have the heady mix of the
> Talbot/Butlers, the Buter/Ormondes, the Catesbys, the Hastings, the
> Lovells, the Pargiter/Washingtons (yes George's ancestors), the
> Throckmortons, the Sutton-Dudleys, Empson and Reggie Bray and on the border
> Thomas, Lord Dorset. I am still trying to get my head round the politics of
> them all, but some, as you can see from the names, were to become
> recusants/plotters in the not too distant future. H.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 15:45
> Subject: Re: Catesby confusion
>
>
>
> Thanks Marie. Eventually I hope to have a better grasp on who all the
> gentry were, so will save your e-mail for future reference.
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:05 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > I suspect the later "knight" entries were clerical errors. The folk at
> > Westminster often weren't clear about what was occurring in the area in
> > question. I've come across a few cases of dead men being reappointed to
> > commissions of the peace for a year or two after their demise. The 1483
> > entry looks likely to have been an error based on William's blossoming
> > status. There's one like that for Thomas Metcalfe (Miles' elder brother),
> > whom Richard had appointed as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
> > I think there is at least one more reference to William Catesby as
> > "knight" from Richard's reign, but the majority of references have him as
> > esquire. Was he one of Richard's body servants by any chance? If so, you
> > could look to see whether he was classified as a knight or an esquire of
> > the Body.
> > There weren't two William Catesbys at this period, but there were two
> John
> > Catesbys, one a knight and the other not, who have often been confused
> with
> > each other.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@
> ...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> > > 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his
> being
> > > called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical
> confusion
> > > between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> > > wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there
> > yet
> > > another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> > > commissions???
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was
> > Sir
> > > > John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in
> > fact
> > > > their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several
> > Commissions of
> > > > the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century
> and
> > > > before. H.
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> >
> > > > To: "" <
> > > > >
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> > > > Subject: Catesby confusion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> > > > Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> > > > suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> > > > sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was
> > only a
> > > > knight later
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > T
> > > > ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> > > >
> > > > NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> > > > 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > > William Catesby, knight
> > > >
> > > > 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> > > > William Catesby, knight
> > > >
> > > > 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > > , knight
> > > >
> > > > 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > A J
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
commissions. It's looking as if several patterns are emerging - one, for
example, being the men who appear on commission after commission from
Edward IV through Henry VII. Guess they knew how to keep a low enough
profile to keep their heads & their possessions.
Anyway, maybe the various patterns will prove good ground for speculation,
even if we can't have any more "proof" of anything than we currently have.
A J
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> I know you're looking at Commissions at the moment, but another
> geographical area worth looking at as well as the South West is the
> Northants/Warks/Oxon/Leics/Bucks borders, often called by the
> genealogists 'Banburyshire'. Here we have the heady mix of the
> Talbot/Butlers, the Buter/Ormondes, the Catesbys, the Hastings, the
> Lovells, the Pargiter/Washingtons (yes George's ancestors), the
> Throckmortons, the Sutton-Dudleys, Empson and Reggie Bray and on the border
> Thomas, Lord Dorset. I am still trying to get my head round the politics of
> them all, but some, as you can see from the names, were to become
> recusants/plotters in the not too distant future. H.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 15:45
> Subject: Re: Catesby confusion
>
>
>
> Thanks Marie. Eventually I hope to have a better grasp on who all the
> gentry were, so will save your e-mail for future reference.
>
> A J
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 8:05 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > I suspect the later "knight" entries were clerical errors. The folk at
> > Westminster often weren't clear about what was occurring in the area in
> > question. I've come across a few cases of dead men being reappointed to
> > commissions of the peace for a year or two after their demise. The 1483
> > entry looks likely to have been an error based on William's blossoming
> > status. There's one like that for Thomas Metcalfe (Miles' elder brother),
> > whom Richard had appointed as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
> > I think there is at least one more reference to William Catesby as
> > "knight" from Richard's reign, but the majority of references have him as
> > esquire. Was he one of Richard's body servants by any chance? If so, you
> > could look to see whether he was classified as a knight or an esquire of
> > the Body.
> > There weren't two William Catesbys at this period, but there were two
> John
> > Catesbys, one a knight and the other not, who have often been confused
> with
> > each other.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@
> ...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ah - so it looks like 2 different individuals listed, the first died in
> > > 1478 & was replaced by another man with the same name. Perhaps his
> being
> > > called "knight" in 1481 & 1483, then represented some clerical
> confusion
> > > between the two, or was the second William also a knight, whose status
> > > wasn't noted correctly in some of the records. Or (horrors!) was there
> > yet
> > > another William Catesby, not a knight, who also served on these
> > > commissions???
> > >
> > > A J
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi AJ Sir William was daddy Catesby who died in 1478. His brother was
> > Sir
> > > > John also. They were sons of the MP for Northants (died 1437) and in
> > fact
> > > > their ancestors had also been MPs and JPs serving on several
> > Commissions of
> > > > the Peace going right back to the middle of the fourteenth century
> and
> > > > before. H.
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
> >
> > > > To: "" <
> > > > >
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013, 2:45
> > > > Subject: Catesby confusion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Commissions of the Peace from the Calendar of the Patent Rolls, for
> > > > Northamptonshire have me confused. The way William Catesby is listed
> > > > suggests that he was a knight off & on. And it's hard to explain this
> > > > sequence as an older knight, being replaced by a younger man who was
> > only a
> > > > knight later
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > T
> > > > ell me, please, that it's just a clerical error!
> > > >
> > > > NORTHAMPTONSHIRE
> > > > 1. Westminster, 11 Nov 1477. [17 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > > William Catesby, knight
> > > >
> > > > 2. Westminster, 15 May 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 27d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 3. Westminster, 27 Nov 1480. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 26d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 4. Westminster, 12 Feb 1481. [20 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 25d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 5. Westminster, 15 Apr 1481. [21 Edward IV. Part 2. m. 21d.]
> > > > William Catesby, knight
> > > >
> > > > 6. Westminster, 12 Dec 1482. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 29d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 7. Westminster, 13 Feb 1483. [22 Edward IV. Part 1. m. 28d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 8. Westminster, 14 May 1483. [Edward V. m. 8d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > 9. Westminster, 26 Jun 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 20d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > > , knight
> > > >
> > > > 10. Westminster, 5 Dec 1483. [1 Richard III. Part 1. m. 16d.]
> > > > William Catesby
> > > >
> > > > A J
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
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