Re: Edward IV's Council at the Time of His Death

Durose David wrote:


"Doug,
I agree that without the death of Edward there would have been no Bosworth -
but it seems to me to be almost too obvious to state. Until Richard came to
the throne, Margaret Beaufort was trying to get her son allowed back to his
Earldom of Richmond.
Without his death there would have been no Buckingham's rebellion - and so
none of the 500 or so escapees in Vannes with Henry Tudor, putting pressure
on the Breton finances.
The French did not "get their hands on Henry"; even though they often tried
to obtain him - stating that he and Jasper were cousins of Louis and had
been on the way to court there when shipwrecked.
Henry ended up in France after escaping from Brittany after Richard had
bribed the Breton treasurer to give Henry up.
See the Wiki page for Pierre Landais. I am surprised that he has never been
mentioned on this forum before, since he was the effective ruler of Brittany
from 1481 to 1485.
This mission by Catesby was a fatal mistake by Richard, because it resulted
in Henry's being "chased" from the Duchy, which didn't really have the
resources to mount another invasion to France that did have the resources.
Also Henry did support Brittany against France several times - see the Kings
Army into the Partes of Britaigne by J M Currin."

Doug here:
Thanks for all the information! My own view is that even during Buckingham's
Rebellion, or at least the planning parts, MB's aim was still only to get
her son back to England. It was only *after* the rebellion failed that the
possibility of Henry uniting Lancastrians with dissident Yorkists, and a lot
of help from the French, made any attempt by him to gain the throne a viable
proposition.
The problem I see with your reasoning about leaving Henry alone *while he
was in Brittany* is how certain could Richard be that Henry would *stay*,
apolitical or otherwise, in Brittany? While Henry was in Brittany, Richard
had leverage to get him; either money (bribes) or offers of support to the
Bretons against Louis. That leverage disappeared once Henry entered
French-controlled territory.
Henry's reluctance to enter French-controlled territory tells me that Henry
wasn't *planning* a military re-entry into England, at least at that point.
Placing himself under Louis' control would almost certainly be considered by
Richard to be an another act of rebellion that would only make Henry's
return to England that much harder.
I haven't gone into the ins and outs of Richard's attempts to get Henry back
from Brittany, but from what I have read about it, it seems that Ricchard
wanted Henry to come back, hat in hand as it were, and *then* any pardon/s
could be issued. After all, Henry, or those with him, hadn't actively fought
against Richard in Buckingham's Rebellion - the weather saw to that.
Thus my scenario for what Richard wanted to do: Henry returns or failing,
that is brought back, from rittany to England, is "arrested", then is
pardoned because Henry's actions were due to evil advisors (can you say
Morton?). Then Henry remains free, although closely watched, and probably
kept at Court.
Doug

Doug wrote:
<snip>
The problem I see with your reasoning about leaving Henry alone *while he
was in Brittany* is how certain could Richard be that Henry would *stay*,
apolitical or otherwise, in Brittany? While Henry was in Brittany, Richard
had leverage to get him; either money (bribes) or offers of support to the
Bretons against Louis. That leverage disappeared once Henry entered
French-controlled territory. <snip>

Carol responds:

I don't know whether anyone has addressed this point or whether it makes any difference to your position, but Louis XI died on August 30, 1493, more than a month before Buckingham's Rebellion. France was faced with a minority (Charles VIII was thirteen years old), The regent was his older sister, Anne of Beaujeu (no friend of Richard's). The regime was unstable, so they were open to any use they could make of Henry Tudor. Essentially, though, I agree with your position. Just wanted to make this one small point.

Carol

Hi Both,
Sorry if this seems out of step, but my messages seem to be out of order sometimes. Has anyone worked out yet how to search old messages?

Anyway, the French desperation to get their hands on Henry seems to be imaginary at that time. After the failed rebellion, Henry actually ended up in France after the storms. He sent ships of home to Brittany and wanted to make his way home with his companions on foot. The French court provided a safe conduct and an escort back to Redon from Normandy at a cost of over 1000 livres.

Chris Skidmore suggests in his latest book that it was an indication that HT's political value at that point was pretty low.

Regards
David
From: justcarol67@... <justcarol67@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Edward IV's Council at the Time of His Death
Sent: Fri, Sep 6, 2013 6:05:35 PM

Doug wrote:
<snip>
The problem I see with your reasoning about leaving Henry alone *while he
was in Brittany* is how certain could Richard be that Henry would *stay*,
apolitical or otherwise, in Brittany? While Henry was in Brittany, Richard
had leverage to get him; either money (bribes) or offers of support to the
Bretons against Louis. That leverage disappeared once Henry entered
French-controlled territory. <snip>

Carol responds:

I don't know whether anyone has addressed this point or whether it makes any difference to your position, but Louis XI died on August 30, 1493, more than a month before Buckingham's Rebellion. France was faced with a minority (Charles VIII was thirteen years old), The regent was his older sister, Anne of Beaujeu (no friend of Richard's). The regime was unstable, so they were open to any use they could make of Henry Tudor. Essentially, though, I agree with your position. Just wanted to make this one small point.

Carol