Richard's Court Traveled 1077 Miles in 8 Months?
Richard's Court Traveled 1077 Miles in 8 Months?
with their court between March of 1484 (after they were informed of
their son's death) and November of 1484.
I was astonished to see it was roughly 1077 miles (133 miles a month),
and it made me wonder if this was the norm for a medieval court? Or if
the king and his queen didn't want to stop moving for long, because to
linger was to let the thoughts circle around their loss?
If this was normal travel for a court, what the heck was Richard doing
along the way, and would Anne have been with him the entire time? I
ask because one of the writers notes that by January of 1485 it was
evident she was dying. So I'm wondering if the stress of travel didn't
contribute to her illness. The rate of travel just
seems...excessive...or is that an illusion at this distance?
I used Carson, Kendall, and Ashdown-Hill's *Last Days* as guides to
find out where they were when. Below is the date/destination
breakdown. Beneath that is the mileage. I used "bicycle miles" in
Google Maps to keep to the back roads which I thought would be closer
to medieval miles than using the dual-carriageways "car miles".
MID-APRIL - Nottingham: told of Edward of Middleham's death.
END OF APRIL Left Nottingham with Anne.
MAY - First days of the month in York. Then on to Middleham.
16 MAY In Durham, then to Scarborough to supervise the fitting and
manning of his fleet.
8 JUNE At Pontefract to meet Breton ambassadors.
MID-JUNE Back to York.
END OF JUNE Back to Scarborough.
JULY - First part of the month in Scarborough. Richard may have taken
command of the naval expedition that defeated the Scots.
21 JULY - Back to York. Richard established the Council of the North.
END JULY Went south by way of Buckden and Stamford to London.
MOST OF AUGUST In London.
26 AUGUST Met Scots envoys at Nottingham.
THROUGHOUT SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER Richard held court at Nottingham.
EARLY NOVEMBER Went south again through Melton Mobray and
Peterborough and Buckden to return to Westminster/London. Stayed there
through March when Anne died.
=======
MILEAGE
=======
Nottingham to York - 83
York to Middleham - 46
Middleham to Durham - 84
Durham to Scarborough - 84
Scarborough to Pontefract - 72
Pontefract to York - 31
York to Scarborough - 43
Scarborough to York - 43
York to Buckden - 173
Buckden to Stamford - 38
Stamford to London - 110
London to Nottingham - 143
Nottingham to Melton Mobray - 23
Melton Mobray to Peterborough - 38
Peterborough to Buckden - 27
Buckden to London - 77
~Weds
Re: Richard's Court Traveled 1077 Miles in 8 Months?
A J
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
I just spent a few minutes mapping everywhere Richard and Anne went
with their court between March of 1484 (after they were informed of
their son's death) and November of 1484.
I was astonished to see it was roughly 1077 miles (133 miles a month),
and it made me wonder if this was the norm for a medieval court? Or if
the king and his queen didn't want to stop moving for long, because to
linger was to let the thoughts circle around their loss?
If this was normal travel for a court, what the heck was Richard doing
along the way, and would Anne have been with him the entire time? I
ask because one of the writers notes that by January of 1485 it was
evident she was dying. So I'm wondering if the stress of travel didn't
contribute to her illness. The rate of travel just
seems...excessive...or is that an illusion at this distance?
I used Carson, Kendall, and Ashdown-Hill's *Last Days* as guides to
find out where they were when. Below is the date/destination
breakdown. Beneath that is the mileage. I used "bicycle miles" in
Google Maps to keep to the back roads which I thought would be closer
to medieval miles than using the dual-carriageways "car miles".
MID-APRIL - Nottingham: told of Edward of Middleham's death.
END OF APRIL Left Nottingham with Anne.
MAY - First days of the month in York. Then on to Middleham.
16 MAY In Durham, then to Scarborough to supervise the fitting and
manning of his fleet.
8 JUNE At Pontefract to meet Breton ambassadors.
MID-JUNE Back to York.
END OF JUNE Back to Scarborough.
JULY - First part of the month in Scarborough. Richard may have taken
command of the naval expedition that defeated the Scots.
21 JULY - Back to York. Richard established the Council of the North.
END JULY Went south by way of Buckden and Stamford to London.
MOST OF AUGUST In London.
26 AUGUST Met Scots envoys at Nottingham.
THROUGHOUT SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER Richard held court at Nottingham.
EARLY NOVEMBER Went south again through Melton Mobray and
Peterborough and Buckden to return to Westminster/London. Stayed there
through March when Anne died.
=======
MILEAGE
=======
Nottingham to York - 83
York to Middleham - 46
Middleham to Durham - 84
Durham to Scarborough - 84
Scarborough to Pontefract - 72
Pontefract to York - 31
York to Scarborough - 43
Scarborough to York - 43
York to Buckden - 173
Buckden to Stamford - 38
Stamford to London - 110
London to Nottingham - 143
Nottingham to Melton Mobray - 23
Melton Mobray to Peterborough - 38
Peterborough to Buckden - 27
Buckden to London - 77
~Weds
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
Re: Richard's Court Traveled 1077 Miles in 8 Months?
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 12:53 PM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
That sounds about right. Rhoda Edwards covered this in the introduction to her Itinerary & estimated a total of something like 2800+ miles (can't find my copy right now) but that 3000 miles in 26 months wasn't too far off. Also arrived with a figure of 30 miles / day for travel days.
A J
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
I just spent a few minutes mapping everywhere Richard and Anne went
with their court between March of 1484 (after they were informed of
their son's death) and November of 1484.
I was astonished to see it was roughly 1077 miles (133 miles a month),
and it made me wonder if this was the norm for a medieval court? Or if
the king and his queen didn't want to stop moving for long, because to
linger was to let the thoughts circle around their loss?
If this was normal travel for a court, what the heck was Richard doing
along the way, and would Anne have been with him the entire time? I
ask because one of the writers notes that by January of 1485 it was
evident she was dying. So I'm wondering if the stress of travel didn't
contribute to her illness. The rate of travel just
seems...excessive...or is that an illusion at this distance?
I used Carson, Kendall, and Ashdown-Hill's *Last Days* as guides to
find out where they were when. Below is the date/destination
breakdown. Beneath that is the mileage. I used "bicycle miles" in
Google Maps to keep to the back roads which I thought would be closer
to medieval miles than using the dual-carriageways "car miles".
MID-APRIL - Nottingham: told of Edward of Middleham's death.
END OF APRIL Left Nottingham with Anne.
MAY - First days of the month in York. Then on to Middleham.
16 MAY In Durham, then to Scarborough to supervise the fitting and
manning of his fleet.
8 JUNE At Pontefract to meet Breton ambassadors.
MID-JUNE Back to York.
END OF JUNE Back to Scarborough.
JULY - First part of the month in Scarborough. Richard may have taken
command of the naval expedition that defeated the Scots.
21 JULY - Back to York. Richard established the Council of the North.
END JULY Went south by way of Buckden and Stamford to London.
MOST OF AUGUST In London.
26 AUGUST Met Scots envoys at Nottingham.
THROUGHOUT SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER Richard held court at Nottingham.
EARLY NOVEMBER Went south again through Melton Mobray and
Peterborough and Buckden to return to Westminster/London. Stayed there
through March when Anne died.
=======
MILEAGE
=======
Nottingham to York - 83
York to Middleham - 46
Middleham to Durham - 84
Durham to Scarborough - 84
Scarborough to Pontefract - 72
Pontefract to York - 31
York to Scarborough - 43
Scarborough to York - 43
York to Buckden - 173
Buckden to Stamford - 38
Stamford to London - 110
London to Nottingham - 143
Nottingham to Melton Mobray - 23
Melton Mobray to Peterborough - 38
Peterborough to Buckden - 27
Buckden to London - 77
~Weds
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
--
Friend:
Are you upset about the outcome of the election?
Me:
I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Richard's Court Traveled 1077 Miles in 8 Months?
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
30 miles/day is a lot, considering a horse walks at 3-4 mph and a court doesn't move that fast. So they'd have traveled an average of ten hours a day? Eesh. Did all kings keep that pace, I wonder? That's punishing for a group that large.
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 12:53 PM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
That sounds about right. Rhoda Edwards covered this in the introduction to her Itinerary & estimated a total of something like 2800+ miles (can't find my copy right now) but that 3000 miles in 26 months wasn't too far off. Also arrived with a figure of 30 miles / day for travel days.
A J
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
I just spent a few minutes mapping everywhere Richard and Anne went
with their court between March of 1484 (after they were informed of
their son's death) and November of 1484.
I was astonished to see it was roughly 1077 miles (133 miles a month),
and it made me wonder if this was the norm for a medieval court? Or if
the king and his queen didn't want to stop moving for long, because to
linger was to let the thoughts circle around their loss?
If this was normal travel for a court, what the heck was Richard doing
along the way, and would Anne have been with him the entire time? I
ask because one of the writers notes that by January of 1485 it was
evident she was dying. So I'm wondering if the stress of travel didn't
contribute to her illness. The rate of travel just
seems...excessive...or is that an illusion at this distance?
I used Carson, Kendall, and Ashdown-Hill's *Last Days* as guides to
find out where they were when. Below is the date/destination
breakdown. Beneath that is the mileage. I used "bicycle miles" in
Google Maps to keep to the back roads which I thought would be closer
to medieval miles than using the dual-carriageways "car miles".
MID-APRIL - Nottingham: told of Edward of Middleham's death.
END OF APRIL Left Nottingham with Anne.
MAY - First days of the month in York. Then on to Middleham.
16 MAY In Durham, then to Scarborough to supervise the fitting and
manning of his fleet.
8 JUNE At Pontefract to meet Breton ambassadors.
MID-JUNE Back to York.
END OF JUNE Back to Scarborough.
JULY - First part of the month in Scarborough. Richard may have taken
command of the naval expedition that defeated the Scots.
21 JULY - Back to York. Richard established the Council of the North.
END JULY Went south by way of Buckden and Stamford to London.
MOST OF AUGUST In London.
26 AUGUST Met Scots envoys at Nottingham.
THROUGHOUT SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER Richard held court at Nottingham.
EARLY NOVEMBER Went south again through Melton Mobray and
Peterborough and Buckden to return to Westminster/London. Stayed there
through March when Anne died.
=======
MILEAGE
=======
Nottingham to York - 83
York to Middleham - 46
Middleham to Durham - 84
Durham to Scarborough - 84
Scarborough to Pontefract - 72
Pontefract to York - 31
York to Scarborough - 43
Scarborough to York - 43
York to Buckden - 173
Buckden to Stamford - 38
Stamford to London - 110
London to Nottingham - 143
Nottingham to Melton Mobray - 23
Melton Mobray to Peterborough - 38
Peterborough to Buckden - 27
Buckden to London - 77
~Weds
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
--
Friend:
Are you upset about the outcome of the election?
Me:
I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Richard's Court Traveled 1077 Milesin 8 Months?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 12, 2013, at 2:56 PM, "Wednesday McKenna" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
30 miles/day is a lot, considering a horse walks at 3-4 mph and a court doesn't move that fast. So they'd have traveled an average of ten hours a day? Eesh. Did all kings keep that pace, I wonder? That's punishing for a group that large.
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 12:53 PM, A J Hibbard
<ajhibbard@...> wrote:
That sounds about right. Rhoda Edwards covered this in the introduction to her
Itinerary & estimated a total of something like 2800+ miles (can't find my copy right now) but that 3000 miles in 26 months wasn't too far off. Also arrived with a figure of 30 miles / day for travel days.
A J
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Wednesday McKenna
<wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
I just spent a few minutes mapping everywhere Richard and Anne went
with their court between March of 1484 (after they were informed of
their son's death) and November of 1484.
I was astonished to see it was roughly 1077 miles (133 miles a month),
and it made me wonder if this was the norm for a medieval court? Or if
the king and his queen didn't want to stop moving for long, because to
linger was to let the thoughts circle around their loss?
If this was normal travel for a court, what the heck was Richard doing
along the way, and would Anne have been with him the entire time? I
ask because one of the writers notes that by January of 1485 it was
evident she was dying. So I'm wondering if the stress of travel didn't
contribute to her illness. The rate of travel just
seems...excessive...or is that an illusion at this distance?
I used Carson, Kendall, and Ashdown-Hill's *Last Days* as guides to
find out where they were when. Below is the date/destination
breakdown. Beneath that is the mileage. I used "bicycle miles" in
Google Maps to keep to the back roads which I thought would be closer
to medieval miles than using the dual-carriageways "car miles".
MID-APRIL - Nottingham: told of Edward of Middleham's death.
END OF APRIL Left Nottingham with Anne.
MAY - First days of the month in York. Then on to Middleham.
16 MAY In Durham, then to Scarborough to supervise the fitting and
manning of his fleet.
8 JUNE At Pontefract to meet Breton ambassadors.
MID-JUNE Back to York.
END OF JUNE Back to Scarborough.
JULY - First part of the month in Scarborough. Richard may have taken
command of the naval expedition that defeated the Scots.
21 JULY - Back to York. Richard established the Council of the North.
END JULY Went south by way of Buckden and Stamford to London.
MOST OF AUGUST In London.
26 AUGUST Met Scots envoys at Nottingham.
THROUGHOUT SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER Richard held court at Nottingham.
EARLY NOVEMBER Went south again through Melton Mobray and
Peterborough and Buckden to return to Westminster/London. Stayed there
through March when Anne died.
=======
MILEAGE
=======
Nottingham to York - 83
York to Middleham - 46
Middleham to Durham - 84
Durham to Scarborough - 84
Scarborough to Pontefract - 72
Pontefract to York - 31
York to Scarborough - 43
Scarborough to York - 43
York to Buckden - 173
Buckden to Stamford - 38
Stamford to London - 110
London to Nottingham - 143
Nottingham to Melton Mobray - 23
Melton Mobray to Peterborough - 38
Peterborough to Buckden - 27
Buckden to London - 77
~Weds
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
--
Friend: Are you upset about the outcome of the election? Me: I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Richard and the Plantagenet Alliance
Re: Richard's Court Traveled 1077 Miles in 8 Months?
Marie responds:
I think it was normal for noblemen to be appointed to commissions of the peace for the counties in which they held land, but it didn't mean they actually turned up the whole time. In fact, they probably turned up very rarely indeed.
Marie
--- In , <> wrote:
Edwards compared this travel pace with those of some other kings (I want to say Edward IV & Henry VII, but again my copy of her book hasn't surfaced just yet). She concluded that they also travelled large distances when in times of unrest, & considerably less in more peaceful times. Although neither quite measured out quite as high mileage as Richard. So much for the idea that Richard's progresses were peaceful ambles through the countryside. It's also necessary to visualize large numbers of government officials, as well as the principle lords temporal & spiritual, accompanying the king at least part of the time, as we know from various government records generated along the way. Not to mention phrases in letters like John Kendall's (to the council of the city of York about preparations for the investiture of Richard's son as Prince of Wales in September 1483), that tell us the king, or at least his officials, was busy dispensing justice along the way during this progress. Edwards (I think) also mentions that the Duke of Clarence was known to travel with a retinue of 200. Which reminds me of the fact that Clarence was named to every bloomin' commission of the peace during Edward IV's reign, with the possible exception of a couple in the cities of Cambridge & Oxford. So I don't think these guys were just flitting about aimlessly, but were engaged on the business of governance.
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
30 miles/day is a lot, considering a horse walks at 3-4 mph and a court doesn't move that fast. So they'd have traveled an average of ten hours a day? Eesh. Did all kings keep that pace, I wonder? That's punishing for a group that large.
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 12:53 PM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
That sounds about right. Rhoda Edwards covered this in the introduction to her Itinerary & estimated a total of something like 2800+ miles (can't find my copy right now) but that 3000 miles in 26 months wasn't too far off. Also arrived with a figure of 30 miles / day for travel days.
A J
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
I just spent a few minutes mapping everywhere Richard and Anne went
with their court between March of 1484 (after they were informed of
their son's death) and November of 1484.
I was astonished to see it was roughly 1077 miles (133 miles a month),
and it made me wonder if this was the norm for a medieval court? Or if
the king and his queen didn't want to stop moving for long, because to
linger was to let the thoughts circle around their loss?
If this was normal travel for a court, what the heck was Richard doing
along the way, and would Anne have been with him the entire time? I
ask because one of the writers notes that by January of 1485 it was
evident she was dying. So I'm wondering if the stress of travel didn't
contribute to her illness. The rate of travel just
seems...excessive...or is that an illusion at this distance?
I used Carson, Kendall, and Ashdown-Hill's *Last Days* as guides to
find out where they were when. Below is the date/destination
breakdown. Beneath that is the mileage. I used "bicycle miles" in
Google Maps to keep to the back roads which I thought would be closer
to medieval miles than using the dual-carriageways "car miles".
MID-APRIL - Nottingham: told of Edward of Middleham's death.
END OF APRIL Left Nottingham with Anne.
MAY - First days of the month in York. Then on to Middleham.
16 MAY In Durham, then to Scarborough to supervise the fitting and
manning of his fleet.
8 JUNE At Pontefract to meet Breton ambassadors.
MID-JUNE Back to York.
END OF JUNE Back to Scarborough.
JULY - First part of the month in Scarborough. Richard may have taken
command of the naval expedition that defeated the Scots.
21 JULY - Back to York. Richard established the Council of the North.
END JULY Went south by way of Buckden and Stamford to London.
MOST OF AUGUST In London.
26 AUGUST Met Scots envoys at Nottingham.
THROUGHOUT SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER Richard held court at Nottingham.
EARLY NOVEMBER Went south again through Melton Mobray and
Peterborough and Buckden to return to Westminster/London. Stayed there
through March when Anne died.
=======
MILEAGE
=======
Nottingham to York - 83
York to Middleham - 46
Middleham to Durham - 84
Durham to Scarborough - 84
Scarborough to Pontefract - 72
Pontefract to York - 31
York to Scarborough - 43
Scarborough to York - 43
York to Buckden - 173
Buckden to Stamford - 38
Stamford to London - 110
London to Nottingham - 143
Nottingham to Melton Mobray - 23
Melton Mobray to Peterborough - 38
Peterborough to Buckden - 27
Buckden to London - 77
~Weds
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
--
Friend: Are you upset about the outcome of the election? Me: I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Richard and the Plantagenet Alliance
Marie responds:
I agree entirely, Sandra, that we shouldn't apply different standards to Richard as to where he should be buried, and I'm not aware of a movement to have him reinterred in a Catholic church, other than as an option given the refusal of Westminster - and apparently at one stage York - to have him. What sort of funeral service he should have is a different question given that he didn't get a proper funeral first time round. I have no particular views on the answer, by the way.
Marie
--- In , <> wrote:
I have just read http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23929989 and am perplexed by two things. Firstly the risk of setting unwelcome precedents with the way Richard's treatment and burial is being handled, and secondly the suggestion that he was a deeply pious Catholic who would only wish to be buried in a Catholic church, presumably in York. Which therefore excludes the Minster, which is a place he knew and loved. It will never be finally known if Richard had any preference for the city or county of his burial, and I do not by any means subscribe to the belief that he would have chosen York. Maybe when he was still Duke of Gloucester, but not once he became king. But that is a personal viewpoint. If the fact that he was a Catholic (as almost everyone was back then) means he should now be buried in a Catholic church, then other questions are raised. What about the descendants' of the other Catholic kings and queens, or indeed nobles, buried in what are now Protestant sites? Are such newly emergent descendants to be able to seek reburials for their ancestors in Catholic places of worship? And if these long-dead monarchs and nobles had actually asked for certain churches for their final resting place, is it to be inferred that because of their Catholic faith they would strongly wish to be uprooted and placed somewhere more fitting? Where does it stop? If Richard had died in the fullness of time, he would be buried---wherever---in what is now a Protestant cathedral. It was Catholic when he was laid to rest there, but is not Catholic now. Is anyone going to suggest he should be up-tombed and shuffled somewhere else? Set this precedent, and all the other Catholic monarchs should be reburied accordingly. Westminster Abbey (for one) could be emptied of early monarchs. And why? Is there really suggestion that they have been less venerated by Protestants? Of course not. These kings and queens were of England. All of it, and everyone in it. They are now the former kings and queens of us all. This may seen an extreme and unlikely scenario, probably born of getting out of bed on the wrong side, but if these considerations are applied to Richard, the way would be cleared for other cases. This is not a matter of Catholic versus Protestant, but a matter of being sensible and getting it right. I am certainly not having a go' at Catholic or Protestant, just debating the facts. Apply the he was a Catholic therefore...' principle and just what can of future unmentionable squirmy creatures' might be opened? And how much bigger the can if other descendants' (bits between teeth) are permitted rights about the remains of their royal ancestors? I perceive an analogy between the Plantagenet Alliance and an election being won because only a few of the more militant voters turned out. The resultant minority victory is seldom a good thing, and the silent majority only realise when it's too late and the machinery is in place, if not yet motion. And in case someone might think it, in this I do NOT regard the Richard III Society as a militant minority, but as seekers of truth, which is entirely different. I say again that this is not about religious persuasion, mine or anyone else's, but about the consequences of setting a (legal?) precedent. And, I'm sorry for droning on. Sandra =^..^=
Re: Richard and the Plantagenet Alliance
I think the article mentioned above is vexatious. A precedent would not be established in "descendants" determining that they wish to remove their relatives from one place to another, since legal permissions are not given for needless exhumations, either by ecclesiastical courts or civil courts. This case is unique in that Richard's remains were almost accidentally found, and in a pre-Reformation burial ground.
Since I support a York interment, taking that situation as a case in point: that the Minster is not "Roman-Catholic" now is neither here nor there. It was built as a cathedral in Richard's time (when faith wasn't labelled as Roman-Catholic), and passed (as the national expression of faith did) into the hands of the continuing catholic faith of the Church of England. It still holds some Roman Catholic services there today, and in whichever cathedral Richard is interred, I would imagine there would be Roman Catholic involvement in the ceremonies.
I disagree that in the current situation it is a case of the "militant" minority possibly winning over the wishes of the silent majority. Obviously there are many viewpoints on this forum, but beyond these walls, I hear nothing but "York, obviously York" from not just my general friends and acquaintances but pretty much everyone who has an opinion on the matter and who knows anything about Richard. I dare say that if it was any of our relatives who we felt was being buried "in the wrong place" by the authority of someone who had nothing to do with our relative, we might be equally strenuous in trying to have some say in the matter.
--- In , <> wrote:
Marie responds:
I agree entirely, Sandra, that we shouldn't apply different standards to Richard as to where he should be buried, and I'm not aware of a movement to have him reinterred in a Catholic church, other than as an option given the refusal of Westminster - and apparently at one stage York - to have him. What sort of funeral service he should have is a different question given that he didn't get a proper funeral first time round. I have no particular views on the answer, by the way.
Marie
--- In , <> wrote:
I have just read http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23929989 and am perplexed by two things. Firstly the risk of setting unwelcome precedents with the way Richard's treatment and burial is being handled, and secondly the suggestion that he was a deeply pious Catholic who would only wish to be buried in a Catholic church, presumably in York. Which therefore excludes the Minster, which is a place he knew and loved. It will never be finally known if Richard had any preference for the city or county of his burial, and I do not by any means subscribe to the belief that he would have chosen York. Maybe when he was still Duke of Gloucester, but not once he became king. But that is a personal viewpoint. If the fact that he was a Catholic (as almost everyone was back then) means he should now be buried in a Catholic church, then other questions are raised. What about the descendants' of the other Catholic kings and queens, or indeed nobles, buried in what are now Protestant sites? Are such newly emergent descendants to be able to seek reburials for their ancestors in Catholic places of worship? And if these long-dead monarchs and nobles had actually asked for certain churches for their final resting place, is it to be inferred that because of their Catholic faith they would strongly wish to be uprooted and placed somewhere more fitting? Where does it stop? If Richard had died in the fullness of time, he would be buried---wherever---in what is now a Protestant cathedral. It was Catholic when he was laid to rest there, but is not Catholic now. Is anyone going to suggest he should be up-tombed and shuffled somewhere else? Set this precedent, and all the other Catholic monarchs should be reburied accordingly. Westminster Abbey (for one) could be emptied of early monarchs. And why? Is there really suggestion that they have been less venerated by Protestants? Of course not. These kings and queens were of England. All of it, and everyone in it. They are now the former kings and queens of us all. This may seen an extreme and unlikely scenario, probably born of getting out of bed on the wrong side, but if these considerations are applied to Richard, the way would be cleared for other cases. This is not a matter of Catholic versus Protestant, but a matter of being sensible and getting it right. I am certainly not having a go' at Catholic or Protestant, just debating the facts. Apply the he was a Catholic therefore...' principle and just what can of future unmentionable squirmy creatures' might be opened? And how much bigger the can if other descendants' (bits between teeth) are permitted rights about the remains of their royal ancestors? I perceive an analogy between the Plantagenet Alliance and an election being won because only a few of the more militant voters turned out. The resultant minority victory is seldom a good thing, and the silent majority only realise when it's too late and the machinery is in place, if not yet motion. And in case someone might think it, in this I do NOT regard the Richard III Society as a militant minority, but as seekers of truth, which is entirely different. I say again that this is not about religious persuasion, mine or anyone else's, but about the consequences of setting a (legal?) precedent. And, I'm sorry for droning on. Sandra =^..^=
Re: Richard and the Plantagenet Alliance
Loyaulte me Lie
Christine
