Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
A STATEMENT BY DAVID AND WENDY JOHNSON
In February 2009 Philippa Langley launched the Looking for Richard Project. As close
friends and fellow Ricardians we joined forces with Philippa to become the project's
founding members, working behind the scenes on documentation and guidance. Our principal
objective was to recover King Richard's remains and reinter them with the honour and
dignity so brutally denied in 1485 following the battle of Bosworth. We now wish to correct a
number of important misconceptions about the project and make clear why we are now
actively supporting the campaign to inter King Richard's mortal remains in York Minster.
There is a general perception that no one from York was involved in the search for Richard
III and that the city only became interested when discovery and identification took place.
This is completely false. We have lived and worked in York since 2003 and have been
involved in the project on a day-to-day basis from the very beginning. In addition the
campaign is based on the firm conviction that Richard planned to be buried in the Minster
and is not a promotional exercise on behalf of the city.
The initial decision to bury Richard in Leicester was based on what appeared to be two
incontrovertible factors. First, archaeological protocol required exhumed remains to be re-
interred in the nearest consecrated ground (i.e. Leicester Cathedral), and second, the
landowner, Leicester City Council, granted Philippa Langley permission to search for
Richard on the condition that he would be buried in the cathedral. There did not appear to be
a legal or practical alternative to Leicester Cathedral.
When Richard was discovered events began to develop in a quite unexpected and alarming
fashion. As holders of the exhumation licence the University of Leicester quickly replaced
the council as lead agency in Leicester and we became progressively more frustrated and
disenchanted.
1
Public Display
Once Richard's remains were identified the university sought to exploit their publicity value
by proposing to put them on public display. Not only was this contrary to our agreements
with the authorities in Leicester, it also breached the terms of the Ministry of Justice
exhumation licence. The licence clearly stated that before reburial the remains shall `be kept
safely, privately and decently by the University of Leicester Archaeological Services'.
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 the Leicester Mercury reported:
The University of Leicester has not ruled out the possibility that the remains of
Richard III will be put on public display.
However the university's proposals were met with a hail of opposition from Leicester
Cathedral, the Richard III Society, Philippa Langley, and the people of Leicester. The
Mercury report continued:
A spokeswoman for Leicester Cathedral said it was up to the university, but the
church would not take part in any public showings.
She said: "Scientists may have a reason for seeing them, but that is different from
public display in the cathedral."
Dr Phil Stone, chairman of the Richard III Society, and Philippa Langley wrote to the
university in the strongest terms. A Leicester Mercury online poll revealed that 69% of
respondents were opposed to public display. Such was the scale of revulsion that the proposal
was quietly dropped. Nevertheless we were deeply concerned and Philippa took immediate
legal steps to prevent a repetition of this distasteful episode.
Client and Custodian
Our concern to protect the remains from unwarranted public display had been enshrined in an
agreement drawn up on 1 June 2011 between Philippa, as Client, and University of Leicester
Archaeological Services (ULAS) as contractor. The `Written Scheme of Investigation for
2
Archaeological Investigation' (WSI) confirmed Philippa's status as Client in the project and
established her as Custodian of Richard's remains. Clause 5.7 of the WSI stated that:
Any human remains which are positively identified as those of Richard III will, after
specialist DNA, osteological and archaeological recording, be transferred to the
custody of the Client and/or the Client's representatives for reburial.
Clause 5.7 also stipulated that the Client (i.e. Philippa Langley) would then place the remains
in a carefully selected place of Catholic sanctity where a cycle of continual prayer and
worship would spiritually prepare the remains for re-interment.
However, it soon became clear that the University of Leicester had no intention of honouring
Clause 5.7. They argued it was not a signed agreement, simply a project management tool,
and were therefore not required to transfer Richard's remains to Philippa's care. During the
course of the dig the WSI had in fact functioned as a working agreement. When human
remains were first discovered Philippa permitted ULAS to amend Clause 4.3.7 of the WSI to
provide strictly controlled filming and photographic evidence for the archaeological record.
This is an important point. If the WSI were not a binding agreement why did ULAS seek
Philippa's permission to alter its terms? In any case Philippa has a signed agreement with
Leicester City Council (12 August 2011) in which the council's Strategic Director and the
council's city archaeologist approved the WSI. To our great sadness this situation remains
unresolved.
Tomb v Slab
The project's early planning stage involved the design of a tomb. Philippa believed our
respective academic and artistic skills meant we were an ideal design team. In August 2011 (a
full year before the archaeology began) we informally presented our initial design to the Dean
of Leicester Cathedral. We were warned that it would have to be considered along with others
(the Church of England has detailed and lengthy procedures) and it was by no means certain
to be accepted. Nevertheless, the discussion proceeded along the lines that if Richard was
3
discovered and positively identified he would be honoured with a tomb and our design would
enter the process as a candidate.
But when Leicester Cathedral published its `Brief for Architects' in March 2013 it was clear
that the situation had changed. The cathedral was now arguing for a slab instead of a tomb.
Our design, endorsed by the Richard III Society and welcomed by the Leicester Mercury,
would not be considered in its present form. The Brief stated that:
The preference of Chapter, following informal consultation with the CFCE (Cathedral
Fabric Commission for England), is to mark the place of burial with a ledger stone
[and that] it is unlikely that a large table top tomb of effigy would be acceptable to the
Chapter or CFCE.
It seemed that our tomb was deemed unsuitable even before the design and consultation
process got underway.
With Philippa fighting for a tomb behind the scenes, the good readers of the Leicester
Mercury once again came to our rescue. An online poll (12 March 2013) revealed that a
staggering 91% of respondents believed Richard III should be honoured with a tomb. In the
face of overwhelming public opposition the cathedral backed down and has recently
announced that a variety of tomb designs are under consideration. While none of these are
our design it is a great victory for Philippa and the people of Leicester. If King Richard is
buried in Leicester Cathedral he will be laid to rest beneath a tomb.
Accessible for Future Study
However, far more disturbing news was beginning to emerge. We learned that at the first
meeting of the Fabric Group on 8 May 2013 (one of three groups formed by Leicester
Cathedral to facilitate the interment process) a document was circulated requiring the Fabric
Group to:
Ensure the remains are conserved for posterity and accessible for future study
Once again we were deeply alarmed, particularly as this appeared to contravene accepted
procedure. Annexe S8 (reinterment: technical aspects) of the Guidance for best practice for
4
treatment of human remains excavated from Christian burial grounds in England (English
Heritage and The Church of England 2005), states on page 50, paragraph 294, that `Prior to
reinterment', and following the completion of testing and research, `the curatorial
requirement to preserve the long-term scientific potential of a collection is removed'.
We were confronted by the appalling prospect of Richard being dug up at some point in the
future. It was all too clear why the University of Leicester refused to honour Philippa
Langley's status as custodian under clause 5.7 of the WSI. They have their own plans,
preparing Richard for burial so as to allow future analysis, which would be impossible if the
remains were transferred (under Philippa Langley's custody) to the peace and sanctity of a
spiritual environment. More recently Leicester Cathedral has come under pressure from the
Cathedral's Fabric Commission for England to adopt conservation practice as they prepare
Richard's remains for reburial. Sadly it is our understanding that the university and cathedral
are still proceeding towards interment on this basis.
Judicial Review
So when the Plantagenet Alliance applied for judicial review to challenge the decision to bury
Richard in Leicester we decided to support them. It appeared that there was, after all, a legal
alternative to Leicester
We had always believed Richard III wished to be laid to rest in York Minster, and we were
familiar with the historical evidence that had convinced a number of eminent historians of
this. We were originally content to inter Richard in Leicester because there did not appear to
be another option. However, a judicial review offered a complete re-examination of the
whole issue. If the exhumation licence could be set aside then there was a chance of
resurrecting Philippa's status as Client and Custodian. Richard would no longer be viewed as
a scientific specimen and we could begin the spiritual journey to interment that had formed
such an important part of our original plans.
We were heartened when, on 16 August 2013, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave granted the
Plantagenet Alliance's application on all grounds. We hope the judge's recommendation of
an independent advisory panel to settle the question of where Richard is buried will be agreed
as soon as possible.
5
As Justice Haddon-Cave proposed that public opinion should be considered, we are urging
everyone who believes King Richard III wished to be buried in York Minster to sign the e-
petition before it closes on 24 September 2013.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/38772
David and Wendy Johnson
York
September 2013
--------------
Dr David Johnson, a freelance historian, and Wendy Johnson, who specialises in portraits of
people and animals and has been fascinated by Richard III since childhood, live and work in
York. They are long standing members of the Richard III Society and founder members of
the Looking For Richard Project.
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
A J
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
LOOKING FOR RICHARD PROJECT
A STATEMENT BY DAVID AND WENDY JOHNSON
<snip>
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
At the rate Leicester Uni is sheering off additional teeth and taking samples of his bones for further study, and given they want the right to reach into his tomb for future samples to help graduate students and professors gain academic and professional traction, there will likely be nothing left by 2100 if Leicester University is permitted to access his skeleton at will.
If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go.
Do they own the other skeletons they found in the car park? Are those remains to be kept above ground into perpetuity as study specimens? How many bones do they need to rip apart and dissolve before they're satisfied?
I guess the court is going to have to decide who Richard's bones actually belong to. If Leicester wins, even after he's buried, Richard will belong to academia as long as there's enough of him to study.
Legal grave-robbing, anyone?
~Weds
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 8:23 AM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
Thanks very much for this. It just gets worse & worse doesn't it, especially regarding clause 5.7.
A J
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
LOOKING FOR RICHARD PROJECT
A STATEMENT BY DAVID AND WENDY JOHNSON
<snip>
--
Friend: Are you upset about the outcome of the election? Me: I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 2:53 PM, "Wednesday McKenna" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
Thanks so much for posting this. I'm glad the Project has spoken up and clarified what's gone on behind the scenes. I'm sorry to say this is exactly the situation I feared, as the university wanted
to own him from the moment it was ascertained the bones were his. I'm glad Philippa, the Project, and the Alliance are fighting for him.
At the rate Leicester Uni is sheering off additional teeth and taking samples of his bones for further study, and given they want the right to reach into his tomb for future samples to help graduate
students and professors gain academic and professional traction, there will likely be nothing left by 2100 if Leicester University is permitted to access his skeleton at will.
If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish
the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go.
Do they own the other skeletons they found in the car park? Are those remains to be kept above ground into perpetuity as study specimens? How many bones do they need to rip apart and dissolve before they're satisfied?
I guess the court is going to have to decide who Richard's bones actually belong to. If Leicester wins, even after he's buried, Richard will belong to academia as long as there's enough of him
to study.
Legal grave-robbing, anyone?
~Weds
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 8:23 AM, A J Hibbard
<ajhibbard@...> wrote:
Thanks very much for this. It just gets worse & worse doesn't it, especially regarding clause 5.7.
A J
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM,
christineholmes651@...
<christineholmes651@...> wrote:
LOOKING FOR RICHARD PROJECT
A STATEMENT BY DAVID AND WENDY JOHNSON
--
Friend: Are you upset about the outcome of the election? Me: I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
I guess for anyone who is now disillusioned with the Leicester situation for whatever reason, a positive response would be to get behind the Alliance's legal challenge which is *not* linked to a university seeking prestige and access to a king's remains, and which above all, is striving to put what it believes Richard might have wished and expected for himself above what a city or a council or a uni wants.Richard favoured York, he did not favour Leicester and barely spent two weeks of his life there, most of which was "passing through". Archaeological practice does not demand that the remains be interred locally and I think the Johnsons and PL were seriously misled on this and thereby were caught up in other people's plans and intentions.
I am sure that the Johnson's statement will be being passed on to the Alliance's lawyers.
--- In , <pbain@...> wrote:
Has any litigation been considered?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 2:53 PM, "Wednesday McKenna" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
Thanks so much for posting this. I'm glad the Project has spoken up and clarified what's gone on behind the scenes. I'm sorry to say this is exactly the situation I feared, as the university wanted to own him from the moment it was ascertained the bones were his. I'm glad Philippa, the Project, and the Alliance are fighting for him.
At the rate Leicester Uni is sheering off additional teeth and taking samples of his bones for further study, and given they want the right to reach into his tomb for future samples to help graduate students and professors gain academic and professional traction, there will likely be nothing left by 2100 if Leicester University is permitted to access his skeleton at will.
If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go.
Do they own the other skeletons they found in the car park? Are those remains to be kept above ground into perpetuity as study specimens? How many bones do they need to rip apart and dissolve before they're satisfied?
I guess the court is going to have to decide who Richard's bones actually belong to. If Leicester wins, even after he's buried, Richard will belong to academia as long as there's enough of him to study.
Legal grave-robbing, anyone?
~Weds
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 8:23 AM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
Thanks very much for this. It just gets worse & worse doesn't it, especially regarding clause 5.7.
A J
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
LOOKING FOR RICHARD PROJECT
A STATEMENT BY DAVID AND WENDY JOHNSON
--
Friend: Are you upset about the outcome of the election? Me: I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 3:50 PM, "colyngbourne" <[email protected]> wrote:
I guess for anyone who is now disillusioned with the Leicester situation for whatever reason, a positive response would be to get behind the Alliance's legal challenge which is *not* linked to a university seeking prestige and access to a king's remains,
and which above all, is striving to put what it believes Richard might have wished and expected for himself above what a city or a council or a uni wants.Richard favoured York, he did not favour Leicester and barely spent two weeks of his life there, most
of which was "passing through". Archaeological practice does not demand that the remains be interred locally and I think the Johnsons and PL were seriously misled on this and thereby were caught up in other people's plans and intentions.
I am sure that the Johnson's statement will be being passed on to the Alliance's lawyers.
--- In , <pbain@...> wrote:
Has any litigation been considered?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 2:53 PM, "Wednesday McKenna" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
Thanks so much for posting this. I'm glad the Project has spoken up and clarified what's gone on behind the scenes. I'm sorry to say this is exactly the situation I feared, as the university wanted to own him from the moment it was ascertained the bones were his. I'm glad Philippa, the Project, and the Alliance are fighting for him.
At the rate Leicester Uni is sheering off additional teeth and taking samples of his bones for further study, and given they want the right to reach into his tomb for future samples to help graduate students and professors gain academic and professional traction, there will likely be nothing left by 2100 if Leicester University is permitted to access his skeleton at will.
If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go.
Do they own the other skeletons they found in the car park? Are those remains to be kept above ground into perpetuity as study specimens? How many bones do they need to rip apart and dissolve before they're satisfied?
I guess the court is going to have to decide who Richard's bones actually belong to. If Leicester wins, even after he's buried, Richard will belong to academia as long as there's enough of him to study.
Legal grave-robbing, anyone?
~Weds
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 8:23 AM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
Thanks very much for this. It just gets worse & worse doesn't it, especially regarding clause 5.7.
A J
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
LOOKING FOR RICHARD PROJECT
A STATEMENT BY DAVID AND WENDY JOHNSON
--
Friend: Are you upset about the outcome of the election? Me: I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: David Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
Sheriff Hutton, as I thought this was inaccurate. (Can't remember
whose remains they are supposed to be, though.)
Best wishes
Christine
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
I think they would warmly welcome any donations - as yet Mr Justice Haddon-Cave hasn't set the Protective Costs Order limit.
Donations may be made directly here - http://kingrichardcampaign.org.uk/r3wp/welcome/new-content-coming/ That link has a strange address but it should lead to the donations page, or at least to the site where there is a donations page.)
Also there is a fundraising page - the Book of Loyal Supporters - in which you can, for a minimum donation of £2 per name, contribute names to a hand-scribed and illuminated book. You can also contribute names in memoriam of people in your family etc who were Ricardians - http://yorkshirerose.simpl.com/ This will be available to look through online once it is finished, and the original will be kept, so far as I know, in a York museum. All of this money goes direct to the Alliance campaign.
Should any of the donations via the Book of Supporters not be needed for the campaign, these donations will, I think, be donated to the Scoliosis Society, I believe.
--- In , <pbain@...> wrote:
So are they looking for donations?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 3:50 PM, "colyngbourne" <[email protected]> wrote:
I guess for anyone who is now disillusioned with the Leicester situation for whatever reason, a positive response would be to get behind the Alliance's legal challenge which is *not* linked to a university seeking prestige and access to a king's remains,
and which above all, is striving to put what it believes Richard might have wished and expected for himself above what a city or a council or a uni wants.Richard favoured York, he did not favour Leicester and barely spent two weeks of his life there, most
of which was "passing through". Archaeological practice does not demand that the remains be interred locally and I think the Johnsons and PL were seriously misled on this and thereby were caught up in other people's plans and intentions.
I am sure that the Johnson's statement will be being passed on to the Alliance's lawyers.
--- In , <pbain@...> wrote:
Has any litigation been considered?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 2:53 PM, "Wednesday McKenna" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
Thanks so much for posting this. I'm glad the Project has spoken up and clarified what's gone on behind the scenes. I'm sorry to say this is exactly the situation I feared, as the university wanted to own him from the moment it was ascertained the bones were his. I'm glad Philippa, the Project, and the Alliance are fighting for him.
At the rate Leicester Uni is sheering off additional teeth and taking samples of his bones for further study, and given they want the right to reach into his tomb for future samples to help graduate students and professors gain academic and professional traction, there will likely be nothing left by 2100 if Leicester University is permitted to access his skeleton at will.
If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go.
Do they own the other skeletons they found in the car park? Are those remains to be kept above ground into perpetuity as study specimens? How many bones do they need to rip apart and dissolve before they're satisfied?
I guess the court is going to have to decide who Richard's bones actually belong to. If Leicester wins, even after he's buried, Richard will belong to academia as long as there's enough of him to study.
Legal grave-robbing, anyone?
~Weds
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 8:23 AM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
Thanks very much for this. It just gets worse & worse doesn't it, especially regarding clause 5.7.
A J
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
LOOKING FOR RICHARD PROJECT
A STATEMENT BY DAVID AND WENDY JOHNSON
--
Friend: Are you upset about the outcome of the election? Me: I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
On Sep 19, 2013, at 4:37 PM, "colyngbourne" <[email protected]> wrote:
I think they would warmly welcome any donations - as yet Mr Justice Haddon-Cave hasn't set the Protective Costs Order limit.
Donations may be made directly here -
http://kingrichardcampaign.org.uk/r3wp/welcome/new-content-coming/ That link has a strange address but it should lead to the donations page, or at least to the site where there is a donations page.)
Also there is a fundraising page - the Book of Loyal Supporters - in which you can, for a minimum donation of £2 per name, contribute names to a hand-scribed and illuminated book. You can also contribute names in memoriam of people in your family etc who were Ricardians - http://yorkshirerose.simpl.com/ This will be available to look through online once it is finished, and the original will be kept, so far as I know, in a York museum. All of this money goes direct to the Alliance campaign.
Should any of the donations via the Book of Supporters not be needed for the campaign, these donations will, I think, be donated to the Scoliosis Society, I believe.
--- In , <pbain@...> wrote:
So are they looking for donations?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 3:50 PM, "colyngbourne" <[email protected]> wrote:
I guess for anyone who is now disillusioned with the Leicester situation for whatever reason, a positive response would be to get behind the Alliance's legal challenge which is *not* linked to a university seeking prestige and access to a king's remains,
and which above all, is striving to put what it believes Richard might have wished and expected for himself above what a city or a council or a uni wants.Richard favoured York, he did not favour Leicester and barely spent two weeks of his life there, most
of which was "passing through". Archaeological practice does not demand that the remains be interred locally and I think the Johnsons and PL were seriously misled on this and thereby were caught up in other people's plans and intentions.
I am sure that the Johnson's statement will be being passed on to the Alliance's lawyers.
--- In , <pbain@...> wrote:
Has any litigation been considered?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 2:53 PM, "Wednesday McKenna" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
Thanks so much for posting this. I'm glad the Project has spoken up and clarified what's gone on behind the scenes. I'm sorry to say this is exactly the situation I feared, as the university wanted to own him from the moment it was ascertained the bones were his. I'm glad Philippa, the Project, and the Alliance are fighting for him.
At the rate Leicester Uni is sheering off additional teeth and taking samples of his bones for further study, and given they want the right to reach into his tomb for future samples to help graduate students and professors gain academic and professional traction, there will likely be nothing left by 2100 if Leicester University is permitted to access his skeleton at will.
If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go.
Do they own the other skeletons they found in the car park? Are those remains to be kept above ground into perpetuity as study specimens? How many bones do they need to rip apart and dissolve before they're satisfied?
I guess the court is going to have to decide who Richard's bones actually belong to. If Leicester wins, even after he's buried, Richard will belong to academia as long as there's enough of him to study.
Legal grave-robbing, anyone?
~Weds
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 8:23 AM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
Thanks very much for this. It just gets worse & worse doesn't it, especially regarding clause 5.7.
A J
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
LOOKING FOR RICHARD PROJECT
A STATEMENT BY DAVID AND WENDY JOHNSON
--
Friend: Are you upset about the outcome of the election? Me: I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post -Alliance Donations
They have big guns lined up against them so lets give them something to fight back with.
LOYAULTE ME LIE
Christine
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post -Alliance Donations
Jess
------------------------------
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 12:30 PM BST christineholmes651@... wrote:
>
>
>
>The Alliance needs all the support it can get so please everyone go to their web site and donate something, every little helps.
>They have big guns lined up against them so lets give them something to fight back with.
>LOYAULTE ME LIE
>Christine
>
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
//snip//If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go."
//snip//
Doug here: I rather tend to think your last sentence above is exactly the reason for the University's actions. The authorities there may very *want* access to Richard's bones, but that doesn't mean they'll get it - and they know that. The best example I can think of on how hard it is to access already-interred remains is the Urn and its' contents in Westminster. I do wish I knew more about dna sequencing and such so as to make an intelligent decision on just how, umm, material? would be needed for future studies. Especially considering how fast that branch of scientific inquiry has advanced in the last decade or so! Doug
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post -Alliance Donations
From: Jessie Skinner <janjovian@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 7:51:20 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post -Alliance Donations
Isn't all this unseemly rancour, both here and generally, as disrespectful to Richard and his memory as anything the UofL have done?
Jess
------------------------------
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 12:30 PM BST christineholmes651@... wrote:
>
>
>
>The Alliance needs all the support it can get so please everyone go to their web site and donate something, every little helps.
>They have big guns lined up against them so lets give them something to fight back with.
>LOYAULTE ME LIE
>Christine
>
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
For me, from the statement, it appears that the uni mis-led PL and the Johnsons from the off by stating that the remains, archaeologically, had to stay in Leicester - wholly not true. They were then tied into agreements that bound them to Leicester - the city council demanding that the remains stay there, if they wanted their dig at all - even though some of these arrangements were then reneged upon.
I agree that it appears unseemly and this is a shame but this is a major legal case which is not going to go away easily by just letting Leicester have their way. The uni and council appear to have engineered it all to their advantage and without any respect for Richard himself and his connections.
--- In , <destama@...> wrote:
Wednesday McKenna wrote:
//snip//If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go."
//snip//
Doug here: I rather tend to think your last sentence above is exactly the reason for the University's actions. The authorities there may very *want* access to Richard's bones, but that doesn't mean they'll get it - and they know that. The best example I can think of on how hard it is to access already-interred remains is the Urn and its' contents in Westminster. I do wish I knew more about dna sequencing and such so as to make an intelligent decision on just how, umm, material? would be needed for future studies. Especially considering how fast that branch of scientific inquiry has advanced in the last decade or so! Doug
Re: Divid Johnson's full Statement Yorks Post
The current law is that what an institution or corporation clones, it owns. The current state of cloning says the ability and the technology are there. The equipment is common at most major educational institutions.
Just because they can doesn't mean they will. But I was startled to discover the age of Richard's bones do not rule out his being cloned. The more I read about human cloning, the more I think it's only a matter of a few decades away. Yes, there are laws against it. But...so what? There are laws against Leicester doing what they're already doing.
So maybe we should think outside the box and the tomb, because the biologists worldwide certainly are.
~Weds
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...> wrote:
Wednesday McKenna wrote:
//snip//If this were any other monarch's bones, would Leicester Uni's stance be tolerated? I don't understand why the university is allowed to take this attitude in the first place. It makes me almost wish the Project had found an obscure knight instead of the king. If they had, Richard would still be at rest. It seems Leicester Uni has no intention of letting him rest. I guess he's far too valuable a specimen for study for them to ever want to let him go."
//snip//
Doug here: I rather tend to think your last sentence above is exactly the reason for the University's actions. The authorities there may very *want* access to Richard's bones, but that doesn't mean they'll get it - and they know that. The best example I can think of on how hard it is to access already-interred remains is the Urn and its' contents in Westminster. I do wish I knew more about dna sequencing and such so as to make an intelligent decision on just how, umm, material? would be needed for future studies. Especially considering how fast that branch of scientific inquiry has advanced in the last decade or so! Doug
--
Friend:
Are you upset about the outcome of the election?
Me:
I'm upset about the outcome of the War of the Roses.
