Barnet 14th April

Barnet field was fought today in 1471.
Edward IV defeated the Earl of Warwick, Richard of Gloucester was wounded.
Warwick killed.
Remember the dead.

--- In , "P.T.Bale"
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
> Barnet field was fought today in 1471.
> Edward IV defeated the Earl of Warwick, Richard of Gloucester was
wounded.
> Warwick killed.
> Remember the dead.

I happened to be down at my mum's this last week, and on Wed.during
lunch thought suddenly out of the blue of the battlefield area, with
feeling I should pay a visit. So I said "What's the date?"
Anyway, to cut a small story short, we took a drive out that way
(very close to home), and I stopped at the Hadley Highstone to pay my
respects. Very sad that there was no sign the day had been marked in
any way. No one else showing an interest, no flowers or anything.
Some battles seem to be 'remembered' better than others.
Marie

> --- In , "P.T.Bale"
> <paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>> Barnet field was fought today in 1471.
>> Edward IV defeated the Earl of Warwick, Richard of Gloucester was
> wounded.
>> Warwick killed.
>> Remember the dead.
>
> I happened to be down at my mum's this last week, and on Wed.during
> lunch thought suddenly out of the blue of the battlefield area, with
> feeling I should pay a visit. So I said "What's the date?"
> Anyway, to cut a small story short, we took a drive out that way
> (very close to home), and I stopped at the Hadley Highstone to pay my
> respects. Very sad that there was no sign the day had been marked in
> any way. No one else showing an interest, no flowers or anything.
> Some battles seem to be 'remembered' better than others.
> Marie

I think a lot of the problem is the site of Barnet is not readily
accessible, partly a private golf course, partly under roads. You can't
stand on a hill and look out across the site as you can at Bosworth (no
matter where it was fought!)
Paul

--- In , "P.T.Bale"
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
> > --- In , "P.T.Bale"
> > <paultrevor@b...> wrote:
> >> Barnet field was fought today in 1471.
> >> Edward IV defeated the Earl of Warwick, Richard of Gloucester was
> > wounded.
> >> Warwick killed.
> >> Remember the dead.
> >
> > I happened to be down at my mum's this last week, and on
Wed.during
> > lunch thought suddenly out of the blue of the battlefield area,
with
> > feeling I should pay a visit. So I said "What's the date?"
> > Anyway, to cut a small story short, we took a drive out that way
> > (very close to home), and I stopped at the Hadley Highstone to
pay my
> > respects. Very sad that there was no sign the day had been marked
in
> > any way. No one else showing an interest, no flowers or anything.
> > Some battles seem to be 'remembered' better than others.
> > Marie
>
> I think a lot of the problem is the site of Barnet is not readily
> accessible, partly a private golf course, partly under roads. You
can't
> stand on a hill and look out across the site as you can at Bosworth
(no
> matter where it was fought!)
> Paul

Well, I don't know, Paul. Some of MKJ's proposed Bosworth site is
completely built up. I am a bit surprised at your take on the Barnet
site, and I wouldn't want it to put anyone else off visiting.
The roads are only those that were there when the battle was fought,
and the battle site has not been built on. Indeed, the quiet, leafy
lanes of Kitts End Road, Dancers Hill & Trotters Bottom are the
remains of the old Barnet-St Albans road that Warwick's army would
have taken to the battle. Only the very northern end of the Old Fold
Manor Golf Course impinges on the site. The rest is either woodland
or farmland, and a very clear impression of the situation on Easter
Sunday 1471 can be gained by perusing the area.
And then you have the Hadley Highstone itself - the commemorativce
obelisk - on a generous plot of grass in the angle between the Great
North Road and Kitts End Road, with Wrotham Wood at its back - an
excellent spot to centre a visit on, and an ideal focus for a small
commemoration ceremony.
There is in fact a footpath down from the Great North Road through
Dead Man's Bottom - I followed it many many years ago as part of a
charity walk.
I accept that the site is not suitable for re-enactments, but it is
still very close to the way it was when the battle was fought and
very well suited to commemoration, and handy for the Society's London
Branch.
Incidentally, the site of the 2nd battle of St Albans is equally
neglected, although this includes the large, unspoilt and public
Nomansland Common.
Surely we are not in competition over who has the best battlesite?

Marie

> I accept that the site is not suitable for re-enactments, but it is
> still very close to the way it was when the battle was fought and
> very well suited to commemoration
I must have been taken to the wrong place then Marie. Must go up there again
and see what I can see.
I don't think I was talking of MJ's site of Bosworth, but what you can see
from Ambien Hill, a long way in all directions. Competition for battle
sites? Certainly not. The more the merrier, and the better looked after the
better. Wish there were more.
Paul

--- In , "P.T.Bale"
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
> > I accept that the site is not suitable for re-enactments, but it
is
> > still very close to the way it was when the battle was fought and
> > very well suited to commemoration
> I must have been taken to the wrong place then Marie. Must go up
there again
> and see what I can see.
> I don't think I was talking of MJ's site of Bosworth, but what you
can see
> from Ambien Hill, a long way in all directions. Competition for
battle
> sites? Certainly not. The more the merrier, and the better looked
after the
> better. Wish there were more.
> Paul

As you no doubt know, the modern St Albans Road, which comes into the
centre of Barnet, is a later thing, and is not the road Warwick came
up; that branched off further north, in what is still open ground
(where the obelisk stands).
Possibly I exaggerated a little. The armies certainly camped on the
area now occupied by Hadley Green (this is the only suitable flat E-W
plateau), and although this is still a large green area it is lawn
rather than the heath that existed in the 15th century, and bounded
by houses (though with open ground behind, albeit a golf course on
the west side).
However, once the battle started it does seem to have swung round,
so that the armies were strung north-south, extending some way
further north than their original positions, into what is still
proper open country. It was this, combined with the fog, which caused
the problems, as the high ground here is a ridge running N-S, so that
the right wing of the Yorkist army seems to have fallen off its east
side into Dead Man's Bottom - von Wesel mentions the Yorkists being
on marshy ground, and Peter Hammond remarks that the battle site (ie
the high ground) cannot have been generally marshy so this was
probably what happened.
I don't know if you were taken to see the obelisk, but Wrotham Wood
is actually behind it (ie on its north side), and if my memory serves
me correctly local tradition says Warwick was killed whilst fleeing
into this wood - the memorial was placed with this in mind.
Dead Man's Bottom lies down to the east of the memorial & Wrotham
Wood, and is still in its former state, even though that is a bit
overgrown. Writing from memory again, I believe several finds have
been made down there, showing that the battle was indeed fierce at
that point. It is probably the marshy ground mentioned by von Wesel
as being occupied by the Yorkists during the battle.
Kendall, who walked the ground himself, refers to Dead Man's Bottom
in his endnotes, but though it is labelled on his maps, these do not
actually show the armies so far north. Peter Hammond's map, I
believe, is equally misleading in showing merely the positions of the
armies as they drew themselves up the night before. This probably
encourages people to think of the battle site as occupying merely the
clipped lawn of Hadley Green. However, Barnet was not a chivalric
spread on an open plain, with gorgeous cavalry charges, it was a mess
involving men on foot careering blindly through brakes and briars
into soggy bottomland, and attacking their own armies. And most of
the aspects of the terrain involved in that mess - north of the
neatness of Hadley Green - are still there to be explored.
By the by, an old guide book I have to Salisbury Hall south of St
Albans suggests that this was where Warwick spent his last night in a
bed. The present house was built by Charles II for Nell Gwynn, but
the manor earlier belonged to the Montagues, and passed from Richard
Neville Earl of Salisbury to Warwick's brother Montagu.
Marie