"desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

I agree with what you say, & would also mention again Alison Hanham's analysis in a Ricardian from 1998, in which she concludes that the Crowland Chronicle was an-house compilation made from whatever information came into the institution from the outside world, and not the coherent recollections of a formerly highly-placed individual.  I don't feel knowledgeable enough at this time to have an independent opinion, but if I'm recalling correctly (and someone will correct me if I'm not) the account of Richard's reign was written over the space of 10 days in 1486, so at best near contemporary.  Mancini also was not recording in "real time," although he comes closer to the ideal of recording events as they happened.
A J

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 10:02 PM, cattivoid <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago. 

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

 

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power.  (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

 

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur.  They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard.  They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

 

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well.  They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

 

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy.  The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost.  He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age).  But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

 

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

I should be packing...... C Skidmore mentions the rumour of the king proposing to marry EOY & thinks it seems highly implausible. He does bring in the Portuguese marriage plans & says the king sent Sir Edward Brampton off to the Portuguese court less than a week after Anne's death. Speculation: would Portugal have been a safe place to put the sons of Edward IV, where they could be part of their sister's entourage?Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 9 Oct 2013, at 04:17, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:

I agree with what you say, & would also mention again Alison Hanham's analysis in a Ricardian from 1998, in which she concludes that the Crowland Chronicle was an-house compilation made from whatever information came into the institution from the outside world, and not the coherent recollections of a formerly highly-placed individual. I don't feel knowledgeable enough at this time to have an independent opinion, but if I'm recalling correctly (and someone will correct me if I'm not) the account of Richard's reign was written over the space of 10 days in 1486, so at best near contemporary. Mancini also was not recording in "real time," although he comes closer to the ideal of recording events as they happened.
A J

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 10:02 PM, cattivoid <[email protected]> wrote:

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

Cathy,
I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmore's book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.

I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.

The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.

One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.

Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
Was legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?


Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richard's favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.

Kind regards
David
From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
To: <>;
Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM

 

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago. 

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

 

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power.  (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

 

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur.  They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard.  They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

 

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well.  They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

 

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy.  The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost.  He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age).  But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

 

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

David, I'm not Cathy but I have to respond re the 'desperation'. I have read Skidmore on this by the way.Governments under threat of foreign invasion or internal treachery will of course expect: a. subjects to come to their aidb. to issue retributions against those who don't This is no different for the militia of the 1770s, pacifists and deserters who were shot at dawn during the Great War, or those who were suspected of colluding or being negligent in World War II . I think you lean too much on Skidmore. He's a history graduate, but not in Marwick's terms, a historian. Yes his work is readable, but it leans much on the old biased sources (More, Vergil). It gives us little new. And that is the hard work in researching Richard; finding something new takes time, a lot of time, which is probably why Penn is not set to publish until 2016. Regards Hilary

On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 12:20, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
Cathy,
I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.

I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.

The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.

One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.

Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
Was legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?


Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.

Kind regards
David
From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
To: <>;
Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion. The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.) But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead. Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances. That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects. So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).
Cathy

Hi All, and very quick, as I'm in the middle of Busy Season here at my day job:
One thing to remember about Manoel, intended groom for Elizabeth, is that, in 1484, he was fairly far from the throne, Prince Afonso at this point being safely set as the successor until his death in 1491.  
In 1484, Manoel's brother, Diogo, had been executed either on the order of King Joao II, or by the King's own hand (I still haven't had time to verify this detail).  In any event, relations between Joao II and Manoel would most likely have been tense, to say the least, and marrying Manoel off to an aristocratic but illegitimate young noblewoman of English extraction might have seemed, indeed, a pragmatic move to Joao.
Maria ejbronte@...

On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 7:20 AM, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
 

Cathy,
I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.

I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.

The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.

One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.

Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
Was legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?


Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.

Kind regards
David
From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
To: <>;
Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM

 

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago. 

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

 

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power.  (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

 

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur.  They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard.  They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

 

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well.  They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

 

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy.  The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost.  He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age).  But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

 

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

Jan wrote:

"Speculation: would Portugal have been a safe place to put the sons of Edward IV, where they could be part of their sister's entourage?"

Marie responds:

I've often wondered about that, particularly given that "Perkin Warbeck" had been page to a Portuguese nobleman. Sir Edward Woodville also made a lot of trips to Portugal early in Henry's reign, perhaps to bring to fruition a marriage between Elizabeth's sister Anne and Manuel of Beja (the marriage nearly came off, and a dispensation was granted for it shortly before Afonso's death changed Manuel's destiny and marriage plans). Anyway, if PW was Richard Duke of York and he was at the Portuguese court, Sir Edward might have seen and recognised him.

Food for speculation.

---In , <> wrote:

I should be packing...... C Skidmore mentions the rumour of the king proposing to marry EOY & thinks it seems highly implausible. He does bring in the Portuguese marriage plans & says the king sent Sir Edward Brampton off to the Portuguese court less than a week after Anne's death. Speculation: would Portugal have been a safe place to put the sons of Edward IV, where they could be part of their sister's entourage?Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 9 Oct 2013, at 04:17, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:

I agree with what you say, & would also mention again Alison Hanham's analysis in a Ricardian from 1998, in which she concludes that the Crowland Chronicle was an-house compilation made from whatever information came into the institution from the outside world, and not the coherent recollections of a formerly highly-placed individual. I don't feel knowledgeable enough at this time to have an independent opinion, but if I'm recalling correctly (and someone will correct me if I'm not) the account of Richard's reign was written over the space of 10 days in 1486, so at best near contemporary. Mancini also was not recording in "real time," although he comes closer to the ideal of recording events as they happened.
A J

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 10:02 PM, cattivoid <[email protected]> wrote:

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

Hilary,
I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that you had made faulty inferences about the Tower, merely that I had seen many made. I do not rely on Skidmore, it is just a book that is fresh in the mind. I have read Penn's Winter King and I think it is an excellent book, and if his book on Richard is up to the same standard it should be well worth reading. Although Skidmore may get there before him.

My criticism of the Winter King as a biography of Henry VII is that it starts more than half way through the reign and does not, for example, explore the reasons for his policies. So it concentrates on the days after his wife and son and many of his companions in exile are dead. It is an excellent book for all that.

The reason the topic of the letters was brought up originally was because I had criticized J A-H for his totally bizarre implications that Edmund Tudor was the son of Edmund Beaufort. Further to which, I have seen the text of the act by Henry VI, by which the brothers were enobled. This act gives them the right to bear coats of arms. The Bestwood letters were only quoted as an example of J A-H's possibly leaving them out of The Last Days because they did not suit his purpose.

If he had included them and said they were standard letters all would be OK - there is quite a lot of filler in that chapter about hunting in general anyway. The letters would have provided more meat if you forgive the pun.


Kind Regards
David




------------------------------
On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 13:21 BST Hilary Jones wrote:

>David, I'm not Cathy but I have to respond re the 'desperation'. I have read Skidmore on this by the way.
>Governments under threat of foreign invasion or internal treachery will of course expect:
> 
>a. subjects to come to their aid
>b. to issue retributions against those who don't
> 
>This is no different for the militia of the 1770s, pacifists and deserters who were shot at dawn during the Great War, or those who were suspected of colluding or being negligent in World War II .
> 
>I think you lean too much on Skidmore. He's a history graduate, but not in Marwick's terms, a historian. Yes his work is readable, but it leans much on the old biased sources (More, Vergil). It gives us little new. And that is the hard work in researching Richard; finding something new takes time, a lot of time, which is probably why Penn is not set to publish until 2016.  Regards   Hilary 
> 
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 12:20, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
>
> 
>Cathy,
>I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.
>
>I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.
>
>The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.
>
>One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.
>
>Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
>Was
> legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
>Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?
>
>
>Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.
>
>Kind regards
>David
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
>To: <>;
>Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
>Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM
>
>
> 
>Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does
>Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious because even though I've been
>reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of
>Portugal until just a few years ago. 
>
>
>These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist
>and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I
>think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he
>gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I
>ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed
>over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his
>reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over
>and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.
> 
>The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans
>receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland
>Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of
>the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's
>contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler
>either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he
>wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position
>close to power.  (My own theory is that
>Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the
>chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll
>forgive the mixed metaphors.)
> 
>But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did
>occur.  They are attested to by independent
>Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they
>weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard.  They were records of what was important to
>Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a
>marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke
>of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to
>the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since
>Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and
>Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter
>instead.
> 
>Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing
>short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging
>a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would
>arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy
>enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to cast
>feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well.  They also show, importantly, that continental
>rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to
>form alliances.
> 
>That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with
>joy.  The protracted marriage
>negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife
>and child he had lost.  He may not have
>expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions
>and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less
>than half his age).  But he probably would
>have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his
>subjects.
> 
>So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact
>of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very
>differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult
>for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that
>either skip over it or only mention it in passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's
>amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend
>(with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did
>(Portugal and Spain).
>
>Cathy
>

No problems David. I do like your input on the French/Breton part of this, which has I think been more than a bit neglected. For what it's worth I find JAH's latest book a bit disappointing. It's as though someone lured him into thinking he'd sell more by addressing a wider audience. It's a bit like Starkey straying from the Tudors and trying to do the whole monarchy. Let's hope when he gets back on home turf with George of Clarence he'll be back to full strength. That's the trouble with the Richard thing at the moment (and I don't mean Skidmore who had written his before the remains were found) it's very attractive to any journalist/author wanting to make the quite sensationalise buck. I too wished Penn had started 'at the beginning' but as we've said on here before, it would probably have overtaken the book so he wisely left it till later. I can't wait to hear of his assessment though. Regards Hilary

On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 16:22, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:

Hilary,
I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that you had made faulty inferences about the Tower, merely that I had seen many made. I do not rely on Skidmore, it is just a book that is fresh in the mind. I have read Penn's Winter King and I think it is an excellent book, and if his book on Richard is up to the same standard it should be well worth reading. Although Skidmore may get there before him.

My criticism of the Winter King as a biography of Henry VII is that it starts more than half way through the reign and does not, for example, explore the reasons for his policies. So it concentrates on the days after his wife and son and many of his companions in exile are dead. It is an excellent book for all that.

The reason the topic of the letters was brought up originally was because I had criticized J A-H for his totally bizarre implications that Edmund Tudor was the son of Edmund Beaufort. Further to which, I have seen the text of the act by Henry VI, by which the brothers were enobled. This act gives them the right to bear coats of arms. The Bestwood letters were only quoted as an example of J A-H's possibly leaving them out of The Last Days because they did not suit his purpose.

If he had included them and said they were standard letters all would be OK - there is quite a lot of filler in that chapter about hunting in general anyway. The letters would have provided more meat if you forgive the pun.

Kind Regards
David

------------------------------
On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 13:21 BST Hilary Jones wrote:

>David, I'm not Cathy but I have to respond re the 'desperation'. I have read Skidmore on this by the way.
>Governments under threat of foreign invasion or internal treachery will of course expect:
>
>a. subjects to come to their aid
>b. to issue retributions against those who don't
>
>This is no different for the militia of the 1770s, pacifists and deserters who were shot at dawn during the Great War, or those who were suspected of colluding or being negligent in World War II .
>
>I think you lean too much on Skidmore. He's a history graduate, but not in Marwick's terms, a historian. Yes his work is readable, but it leans much on the old biased sources (More, Vergil). It gives us little new. And that is the hard work in researching Richard; finding something new takes time, a lot of time, which is probably why Penn is not set to publish until 2016. Regards Hilary
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 12:20, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
>
>
>Cathy,
>I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.
>
>I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.
>
>The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.
>
>One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.
>
>Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
>Was
> legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
>Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?
>
>
>Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.
>
>Kind regards
>David
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
>To: <>;
>Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
>Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM
>
>
>
>Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does
>Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been
>reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of
>Portugal until just a few years ago.
>
>
>These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist
>and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I
>think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he
>gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I
>ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed
>over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his
>reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over
>and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.
>
>The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans
>receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland
>Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of
>the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's
>contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler
>either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he
>wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position
>close to power. (My own theory is that
>Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the
>chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll
>forgive the mixed metaphors.)
>
>But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did
>occur. They are attested to by independent
>Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they
>weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to
>Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a
>marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke
>of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to
>the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since
>Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and
>Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter
>instead.
>
>Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing
>short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging
>a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would
>arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy
>enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast
>feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental
>rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to
>form alliances.
>
>That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with
>joy. The protracted marriage
>negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife
>and child he had lost. He may not have
>expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions
>and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less
>than half his age). But he probably would
>have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his
>subjects.
>
>So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact
>of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very
>differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult
>for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that
>either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's
>amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend
>(with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did
>(Portugal and Spain).
>
>Cathy
>

ÿ How often at the beginning of the century did I hear in person, or read in an e-mail, JA-H on cases before and after the Lady Eleanor marriage - particularly Henry VIII ........... ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Hilary Jones To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Re : [Richard III Society Forum] "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages

No problems David. I do like your input on the French/Breton part of this, which has I think been more than a bit neglected. For what it's worth I find JAH's latest book a bit disappointing. It's as though someone lured him into thinking he'd sell more by addressing a wider audience. It's a bit like Starkey straying from the Tudors and trying to do the whole monarchy. Let's hope when he gets back on home turf with George of Clarence he'll be back to full strength. That's the trouble with the Richard thing at the moment (and I don't mean Skidmore who had written his before the remains were found) it's very attractive to any journalist/author wanting to make the quite sensationalise buck. I too wished Penn had started 'at the beginning' but as we've said on here before, it would probably have overtaken the book so he wisely left it till later. I can't wait to hear of his assessment though. Regards Hilary

On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 16:22, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:

Hilary,
I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that you had made faulty inferences about the Tower, merely that I had seen many made. I do not rely on Skidmore, it is just a book that is fresh in the mind. I have read Penn's Winter King and I think it is an excellent book, and if his book on Richard is up to the same standard it should be well worth reading. Although Skidmore may get there before him.

My criticism of the Winter King as a biography of Henry VII is that it starts more than half way through the reign and does not, for example, explore the reasons for his policies. So it concentrates on the days after his wife and son and many of his companions in exile are dead. It is an excellent book for all that.

The reason the topic of the letters was brought up originally was because I had criticized J A-H for his totally bizarre implications that Edmund Tudor was the son of Edmund Beaufort. Further to which, I have seen the text of the act by Henry VI, by which the brothers were enobled. This act gives them the right to bear coats of arms. The Bestwood letters were only quoted as an example of J A-H's possibly leaving them out of The Last Days because they did not suit his purpose.

If he had included them and said they were standard letters all would be OK - there is quite a lot of filler in that chapter about hunting in general anyway. The letters would have provided more meat if you forgive the pun.

Kind Regards
David

------------------------------
On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 13:21 BST Hilary Jones wrote:

>David, I'm not Cathy but I have to respond re the 'desperation'. I have read Skidmore on this by the way.
>Governments under threat of foreign invasion or internal treachery will of course expect:
>
>a. subjects to come to their aid
>b. to issue retributions against those who don't
>
>This is no different for the militia of the 1770s, pacifists and deserters who were shot at dawn during the Great War, or those who were suspected of colluding or being negligent in World War II .
>
>I think you lean too much on Skidmore. He's a history graduate, but not in Marwick's terms, a historian. Yes his work is readable, but it leans much on the old biased sources (More, Vergil). It gives us little new. And that is the hard work in researching Richard; finding something new takes time, a lot of time, which is probably why Penn is not set to publish until 2016. Regards Hilary
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 12:20, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
>
>
>Cathy,
>I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.
>
>I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.
>
>The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.
>
>One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.
>
>Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
>Was
> legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
>Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?
>
>
>Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.
>
>Kind regards
>David
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
>To: <>;
>Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
>Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM
>
>
>
>Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does
>Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been
>reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of
>Portugal until just a few years ago.
>
>
>These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist
>and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I
>think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he
>gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I
>ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed
>over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his
>reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over
>and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.
>
>The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans
>receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland
>Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of
>the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's
>contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler
>either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he
>wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position
>close to power. (My own theory is that
>Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the
>chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll
>forgive the mixed metaphors.)
>
>But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did
>occur. They are attested to by independent
>Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they
>weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to
>Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a
>marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke
>of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to
>the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since
>Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and
>Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter
>instead.
>
>Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing
>short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging
>a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would
>arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy
>enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast
>feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental
>rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to
>form alliances.
>
>That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with
>joy. The protracted marriage
>negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife
>and child he had lost. He may not have
>expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions
>and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less
>than half his age). But he probably would
>have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his
>subjects.
>
>So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact
>of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very
>differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult
>for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that
>either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's
>amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend
>(with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did
>(Portugal and Spain).
>
>Cathy
>

I have just seen a book advertised. Wars of the Roses: Stormbird by Conn Igguiden. The review says it is Political. Intrigue, compelling reading. Has anyone read the book and review it if so. Kind regards. CoralSent from my BlackBerry® smartphoneFrom: Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> Sender: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:22:57 +0100 (BST)To: <>ReplyTo: Subject: Re: Re : "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages

Hilary,
I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that you had made faulty inferences about the Tower, merely that I had seen many made. I do not rely on Skidmore, it is just a book that is fresh in the mind. I have read Penn's Winter King and I think it is an excellent book, and if his book on Richard is up to the same standard it should be well worth reading. Although Skidmore may get there before him.

My criticism of the Winter King as a biography of Henry VII is that it starts more than half way through the reign and does not, for example, explore the reasons for his policies. So it concentrates on the days after his wife and son and many of his companions in exile are dead. It is an excellent book for all that.

The reason the topic of the letters was brought up originally was because I had criticized J A-H for his totally bizarre implications that Edmund Tudor was the son of Edmund Beaufort. Further to which, I have seen the text of the act by Henry VI, by which the brothers were enobled. This act gives them the right to bear coats of arms. The Bestwood letters were only quoted as an example of J A-H's possibly leaving them out of The Last Days because they did not suit his purpose.

If he had included them and said they were standard letters all would be OK - there is quite a lot of filler in that chapter about hunting in general anyway. The letters would have provided more meat if you forgive the pun.

Kind Regards
David

------------------------------
On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 13:21 BST Hilary Jones wrote:

>David, I'm not Cathy but I have to respond re the 'desperation'. I have read Skidmore on this by the way.
>Governments under threat of foreign invasion or internal treachery will of course expect:
> 
>a. subjects to come to their aid
>b. to issue retributions against those who don't
> 
>This is no different for the militia of the 1770s, pacifists and deserters who were shot at dawn during the Great War, or those who were suspected of colluding or being negligent in World War II .
> 
>I think you lean too much on Skidmore. He's a history graduate, but not in Marwick's terms, a historian. Yes his work is readable, but it leans much on the old biased sources (More, Vergil). It gives us little new. And that is the hard work in researching Richard; finding something new takes time, a lot of time, which is probably why Penn is not set to publish until 2016.  Regards   Hilary 
> 
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 12:20, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
>
> 
>Cathy,
>I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.
>
>I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.
>
>The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.
>
>One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.
>
>Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
>Was
> legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
>Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?
>
>
>Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.
>
>Kind regards
>David
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
>To: <>;
>Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
>Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM
>
>
> 
>Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does
>Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious because even though I've been
>reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of
>Portugal until just a few years ago. 
>
>
>These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist
>and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I
>think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he
>gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I
>ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed
>over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his
>reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over
>and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.
> 
>The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans
>receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland
>Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of
>the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's
>contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler
>either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he
>wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position
>close to power.  (My own theory is that
>Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the
>chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll
>forgive the mixed metaphors.)
> 
>But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did
>occur.  They are attested to by independent
>Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they
>weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard.  They were records of what was important to
>Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a
>marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke
>of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to
>the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since
>Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and
>Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter
>instead.
> 
>Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing
>short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging
>a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would
>arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy
>enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to cast
>feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well.  They also show, importantly, that continental
>rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to
>form alliances.
> 
>That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with
>joy.  The protracted marriage
>negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife
>and child he had lost.  He may not have
>expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions
>and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less
>than half his age).  But he probably would
>have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his
>subjects.
> 
>So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact
>of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very
>differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult
>for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that
>either skip over it or only mention it in passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's
>amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend
>(with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did
>(Portugal and Spain).
>
>Cathy
>

Hi

I haven't read it but the reviews on Amazon are very positive. Might be worth a read.
Elaine

--- In , c.nelson1@... wrote:
>
> I have just seen a book advertised. Wars of the Roses: Stormbird by Conn Igguiden. The review says it is Political. Intrigue, compelling reading. Has anyone read the book and review it if so. Kind regards. Coral
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Durose David <daviddurose2000@...>
> Sender:
> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:22:57
> To: <>
> Reply-To:
> Subject: Re: Re : "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
>
>
> Hilary,
> I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that you had made faulty inferences about the Tower, merely that I had seen many made. I do not rely on Skidmore, it is just a book that is fresh in the mind. I have read Penn's Winter King and I think it is an excellent book, and if his book on Richard is up to the same standard it should be well worth reading. Although Skidmore may get there before him.
>
> My criticism of the Winter King as a biography of Henry VII is that it starts more than half way through the reign and does not, for example, explore the reasons for his policies. So it concentrates on the days after his wife and son and many of his companions in exile are dead. It is an excellent book for all that.
>
> The reason the topic of the letters was brought up originally was because I had criticized J A-H for his totally bizarre implications that Edmund Tudor was the son of Edmund Beaufort. Further to which, I have seen the text of the act by Henry VI, by which the brothers were enobled. This act gives them the right to bear coats of arms. The Bestwood letters were only quoted as an example of J A-H's possibly leaving them out of The Last Days because they did not suit his purpose.
>
> If he had included them and said they were standard letters all would be OK - there is quite a lot of filler in that chapter about hunting in general anyway. The letters would have provided more meat if you forgive the pun.
>
>
> Kind Regards
> David
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 13:21 BST Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> >David, I'm not Cathy but I have to respond re the 'desperation'. I have read Skidmore on this by the way.
> >Governments under threat of foreign invasion or internal treachery will of course expect:
> > 
> >a. subjects to come to their aid
> >b. to issue retributions against those who don't
> > 
> >This is no different for the militia of the 1770s, pacifists and deserters who were shot at dawn during the Great War, or those who were suspected of colluding or being negligent in World War II .
> > 
> >I think you lean too much on Skidmore. He's a history graduate, but not in Marwick's terms, a historian. Yes his work is readable, but it leans much on the old biased sources (More, Vergil). It gives us little new. And that is the hard work in researching Richard; finding something new takes time, a lot of time, which is probably why Penn is not set to publish until 2016.  Regards   Hilary 
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 12:20, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> >Cathy,
> >I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.
> >
> >I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.
> >
> >The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.
> >
> >One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.
> >
> >Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
> >Was
> > legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
> >Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?
> >
> >
> >Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.
> >
> >Kind regards
> >David
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
> >To: <>;
> >Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
> >Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM
> >
> >
> > 
> >Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does
> >Skidmore discuss Richard’s marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious because even though I’ve been
> >reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of
> >Portugal until just a few years ago. 
> >
> >
> >These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist
> >and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I
> >think this is one of the strength’s of Ashdown-Hill’s “Last Days,” that he
> >gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I
> >ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed
> >over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his
> >reign as “desperate” or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over
> >and quit in the face of Tudor’s invasion.
> > 
> >The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans
> >receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland
> >Chronicle, which also doesn’t mention them. But here we have a bald example of
> >the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it’s
> >contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler
> >either willfully suppressed it because it didn’t suit the image of Richard he
> >wished to portray, or he simply wasn’t aware of it because he no longer had a position
> >close to power.  (My own theory is that
> >Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the
> >chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughâ€"if you’ll
> >forgive the mixed metaphors.)
> > 
> >But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did
> >occur.  They are attested to by independent
> >Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they
> >weren’t intended as “evidence” in a “case” for or against Richard.  They were records of what was important to
> >Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a
> >marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke
> >of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to
> >the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since
> >Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and
> >Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter
> >instead.
> > 
> >Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing
> >short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging
> >a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would
> >arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach … and also that he was savvy
> >enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to cast
> >feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well.  They also show, importantly, that continental
> >rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to
> >form alliances.
> > 
> >That’s not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with
> >joy.  The protracted marriage
> >negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife
> >and child he had lost.  He may not have
> >expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions
> >and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less
> >than half his age).  But he probably would
> >have reasoned that it was God’s will and his duty to his kingdom and his
> >subjects.
> > 
> >So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact
> >of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very
> >differently at the later period of Richard’s reign. It has made it difficult
> >for me to accept the “desperate” image offered by so many narratives that
> >either skip over it or only mention it in passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that it’s
> >amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend
> >(with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did
> >(Portugal and Spain).
> >
> >Cathy
> >
>

ÿ Was intrigued about that myself. How the title is written it looks as though there's going to be a series. It's a novel, so am waiting for the paperback version. That's if it's any good, of course! Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: c.nelson1@... To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 9:38 PM Subject: Re: Re : [Richard III Society Forum] "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages

I have just seen a book advertised. Wars of the Roses: Stormbird by Conn Igguiden. The review says it is Political. Intrigue, compelling reading. Has anyone read the book and review it if so. Kind regards. Coral Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone From: Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> Sender: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:22:57 +0100 (BST) To: <> ReplyTo: Subject: Re: Re : "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages

Hilary,
I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that you had made faulty inferences about the Tower, merely that I had seen many made. I do not rely on Skidmore, it is just a book that is fresh in the mind. I have read Penn's Winter King and I think it is an excellent book, and if his book on Richard is up to the same standard it should be well worth reading. Although Skidmore may get there before him.

My criticism of the Winter King as a biography of Henry VII is that it starts more than half way through the reign and does not, for example, explore the reasons for his policies. So it concentrates on the days after his wife and son and many of his companions in exile are dead. It is an excellent book for all that.

The reason the topic of the letters was brought up originally was because I had criticized J A-H for his totally bizarre implications that Edmund Tudor was the son of Edmund Beaufort. Further to which, I have seen the text of the act by Henry VI, by which the brothers were enobled. This act gives them the right to bear coats of arms. The Bestwood letters were only quoted as an example of J A-H's possibly leaving them out of The Last Days because they did not suit his purpose.

If he had included them and said they were standard letters all would be OK - there is quite a lot of filler in that chapter about hunting in general anyway. The letters would have provided more meat if you forgive the pun.

Kind Regards
David

------------------------------
On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 13:21 BST Hilary Jones wrote:

>David, I'm not Cathy but I have to respond re the 'desperation'. I have read Skidmore on this by the way.
>Governments under threat of foreign invasion or internal treachery will of course expect:
>
>a. subjects to come to their aid
>b. to issue retributions against those who don't
>
>This is no different for the militia of the 1770s, pacifists and deserters who were shot at dawn during the Great War, or those who were suspected of colluding or being negligent in World War II .
>
>I think you lean too much on Skidmore. He's a history graduate, but not in Marwick's terms, a historian. Yes his work is readable, but it leans much on the old biased sources (More, Vergil). It gives us little new. And that is the hard work in researching Richard; finding something new takes time, a lot of time, which is probably why Penn is not set to publish until 2016. Regards Hilary
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 12:20, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
>
>
>Cathy,
>I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.
>
>I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.
>
>The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.
>
>One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.
>
>Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
>Was
> legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
>Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?
>
>
>Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.
>
>Kind regards
>David
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
>To: <>;
>Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
>Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM
>
>
>
>Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does
>Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been
>reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of
>Portugal until just a few years ago.
>
>
>These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist
>and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I
>think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he
>gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I
>ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed
>over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his
>reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over
>and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.
>
>The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans
>receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland
>Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of
>the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's
>contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler
>either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he
>wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position
>close to power. (My own theory is that
>Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the
>chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll
>forgive the mixed metaphors.)
>
>But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did
>occur. They are attested to by independent
>Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they
>weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to
>Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a
>marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke
>of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to
>the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since
>Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and
>Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter
>instead.
>
>Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing
>short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging
>a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would
>arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy
>enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast
>feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental
>rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to
>form alliances.
>
>That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with
>joy. The protracted marriage
>negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife
>and child he had lost. He may not have
>expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions
>and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less
>than half his age). But he probably would
>have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his
>subjects.
>
>So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact
>of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very
>differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult
>for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that
>either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's
>amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend
>(with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did
>(Portugal and Spain).
>
>Cathy
>

I don't normally do one- (or two-) line posts, but I just wanted to express agreement with every word of this one. Great post, Cathy.

Carol

---In , <> wrote:

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

Jan wrote:

I should be packing...... C Skidmore mentions the rumour of the king proposing to marry EOY & thinks it seems highly implausible. He does bring in the Portuguese marriage plans & says the king sent Sir Edward Brampton off to the Portuguese court less than a week after Anne's death. Speculation: would Portugal have been a safe place to put the sons of Edward IV, where they could be part of their sister's entourage?Jan.

Carol responds:

Very quickly as I know you're in a hurry to leave--I think the boys would have been much safer with their Aunt Margaret in Burgundy. Richard might, however, have planned to send some of Elizabeth's younger sisters with her--not Cicely, for whom he had already found a suitable husband, but the girls who were not yet of marriageable age.

Have a great trip.

Carol

Hi David,

Thanks very much for this confirmation that Skidmore does mention the Portuguese marriage plans. I will take it as a positive sign that maybe authors of newer books now are aware of this and recognize that they can't ignore it. I would hope they would consider the broader implications beyond the Elizabeth of York rumors, though. In my opinion the marriage negotiations have a bearing on Richard's character, kingship, and stature among his fellow sovereigns, and that's worth exploring. But I appreciate the small step in that direction.

I think the question about Elizabeth of York's bastard status has been answered in other posts, but to answer your question about her letter: that she expressed a wish to marry Richard is Buck's interpretation. But keep in mind that Buck didn't know of Richard's Portuguese or Spanish marriage plans either. In light of what we now do know--that the Portuguese negotiations included a marriage for Elizabeth but the Spanish ones did not--her letter more likely referred to her planned marriage to Duke Manuel, not a marriage to Richard. It can more comprehensibly be read as her asking Norfolk to urge Richard to favor the Portuguese alliance over the Spanish one. She did call Richard her only joy and maker but that was pretty much true: he held the power to either go with Portugal, which would benefit her, or else with Spain, which would not.

Thank you again for sharing about Skidmore. I doubt I'll buy the book, but my reasons have nothing to do with Richard. I already read his book on Amy Robsart and am sorry to say that I was pretty underwhelmed.

Cathy

---In , <> wrote:

Cathy,
I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmore's book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.

I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.

The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.

One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.

Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
Was legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?


Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richard's favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.

Kind regards
David
From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
To: <>;
Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

Maria, thank you! I was kind of sure Manuel was not the heir at the time, but I wasn't sure enough to say for certain. It sounds like his status at the time made him safe and acceptable for unloading a royal bastard on (sorry if that sounds harsh).

It's also worth noting that when Richard was negotiating a marriage to someone who actually was an heir to a throne (Scotland), he went with his unquestionably legitimate niece Anne de la Pole.

Cathy

---In , <> wrote:

Hi All, and very quick, as I'm in the middle of Busy Season here at my day job:
One thing to remember about Manoel, intended groom for Elizabeth, is that, in 1484, he was fairly far from the throne, Prince Afonso at this point being safely set as the successor until his death in 1491.
In 1484, Manoel's brother, Diogo, had been executed either on the order of King Joao II, or by the King's own hand (I still haven't had time to verify this detail). In any event, relations between Joao II and Manoel would most likely have been tense, to say the least, and marrying Manoel off to an aristocratic but illegitimate young noblewoman of English extraction might have seemed, indeed, a pragmatic move to Joao.
Maria ejbronte@...

On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 7:20 AM, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
Cathy,
I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.

I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.

The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.

One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.

Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
Was legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?


Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.

Kind regards
David
From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
To: <>;
Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

Doesn't he normally write stuff for teenagers?
 

Liz

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 9/10/13, ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re : "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
To:
Date: Wednesday, 9 October, 2013, 23:21

Hi

I haven't read it but the reviews on Amazon are very
positive.  Might be worth a read.
Elaine

--- In ,
c.nelson1@... wrote:
>
> I have just seen a book advertised. Wars of the Roses:
Stormbird by Conn Igguiden. The review says it is Political.
Intrigue, compelling reading. Has anyone read the book and
review it if so. Kind regards. Coral
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Durose David <daviddurose2000@...>
> Sender:
> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:22:57
> To: <>
> Reply-To:
> Subject: Re: Re :
"desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
>
>
> Hilary,
> I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that you had made
faulty inferences about the Tower, merely that I had seen
many made. I do not rely on Skidmore, it is just a book that
is fresh in the mind. I have read Penn's Winter King and I
think it is an excellent book, and if his book on Richard is
up to the same standard it should be well worth reading.
Although Skidmore may get there before him.
>
> My criticism of the Winter King as a biography of Henry
VII is that it starts more than half way through the reign
and does not, for example, explore the reasons for his
policies. So it concentrates on the days after his wife and
son and many of his companions in exile are dead. It is an
excellent book for all that.
>
> The reason the topic of the letters was brought up
originally was because I had criticized J A-H for his
totally bizarre implications that Edmund Tudor was the son
of Edmund Beaufort. Further to which, I have seen the text
of the act by Henry VI, by which the brothers were enobled.
This act gives them the right to bear coats of arms. The
Bestwood letters were only quoted as an example of J A-H's
possibly leaving them out of The Last Days because 
they did not suit his purpose.
>
> If he had included them and said they were standard
letters all would be OK - there is quite a lot of filler in
that chapter about hunting in general anyway. The letters
would have provided more meat if you forgive the pun.
>
>
> Kind Regards
> David
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 13:21 BST Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> >David, I'm not Cathy but I have to respond re the
'desperation'. I have read Skidmore on this by the way.
> >Governments under threat of foreign invasion or
internal treachery will of course expect:
> > 
> >a. subjects to come to their aid
> >b. to issue retributions against those who don't
> > 
> >This is no different for the militia of the 1770s,
pacifists and deserters who were shot at dawn during the
Great War, or those who were suspected of colluding or being
negligent in World War II .
> > 
> >I think you lean too much on Skidmore. He's a
history graduate, but not in Marwick's terms, a historian.
Yes his work is readable, but it leans much on the old
biased sources (More, Vergil). It gives us little new. And
that is the hard work in researching Richard; finding
something new takes time, a lot of time, which is probably
why Penn is not set to publish until 2016. 
Regards   Hilary 
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >On Wednesday, 9 October 2013, 12:20, Durose David
<daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >Cathy,
> >I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmorex27;s
book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and
describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in
the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He
does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached
Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount
of panic.
> >
> >I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he
is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard
after Bosworth.
> >
> >The desperation he mentions is specifically very
close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the
support of some of his key nobles.
> >
> >One thing that has always puzzled me about the
Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared
illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the
throne.
> >
> >Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
> >Was
> > legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
> >Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?
> >
> >
> >Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to
have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry
Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in
Richardx27;s favour and who found the copy of Titulus
Regius.
> >
> >Kind regards
> >David 
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From:  cattivoid <[email protected]>;

> >To:  <>;

> >Subject: 
"desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
> >Sent:  Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM
> >
> >
> > 
> >Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book:
Does
> >Skidmore discuss Richardâ¬"s marriage
negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious
because even though Iâ¬"ve been
> >reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I
never even heard of Joanna of
> >Portugal until just a few years ago. 
> >
> >
> >These marriage plans seem to have been mostly
ignored by traditionalist
> >and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I
> >think this is one of the strengthâ¬"s of
Ashdown-Hillâ¬"s â¬SLast Days,â¬ý that he
> >gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I
> >ask about it now, because they usually seem to be
ignored or briefly passed
> >over when the author is presenting a narrative of
Richard by the end of his
> >reign as â¬Sdesperateâ¬ý or otherwise
isolated and passively waiting to roll over
> >and quit in the face of Tudorâ¬"s invasion.
> > 
> >The charitable explanation is that these marriage
plans
> >receive little to no attention because the authors
are following the Croyland
> >Chronicle, which also doesnâ¬"t mention them.
But here we have a bald example of
> >the danger of treating a contemporary source as
gospel just because itâ¬"s
> >contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler
> >either willfully suppressed it because it
didnâ¬"t suit the image of Richard he
> >wished to portray, or he simply wasnâ¬"t aware
of it because he no longer had a position
> >close to power.  (My own theory is that
> >Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech
inherited from Edward IV, and the
> >chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to
swill in the troughâ¬"if youâ¬"ll
> >forgive the mixed metaphors.)
> > 
> >But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say,
the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did
> >occur.  They are attested to by independent
> >Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective
as possible because they
> >werenâ¬"t intended as â¬Sevidenceâ¬ý
in a â¬Scaseâ¬ý for or against Richard.  They
were records of what was important to
> >Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that
Richard sought to arrange a
> >marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter
of Edward IV to Manuel Duke
> >of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors
urged King John to agree to
> >the proposals because (1) it would help heal the
Lancaster/York rift since
> >Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and
(2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would
lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and
> >Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard
marry their daughter
> >instead.
> > 
> >Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations,
and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated,
desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard
pragmatically addressing
> >short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting
Lancaster and York, forging
> >a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to
Elizabeth Woodville that he would
> >arrange honorable marriages for her daughters,
putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach ⬦ and
also that he was savvy
> >enough not to risk everything on one throw of the
dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to
cast
> >feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as
well.  They also show, importantly, that continental
> >rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable
peer with whom they wanted to
> >form alliances.
> > 
> >Thatâ¬"s not to say that Richard was
necessarily bubbling with
> >joy.  The protracted marriage
> >negotiations would have reminded him regularly and
poignantly of the first wife
> >and child he had lost.  He may not have
> >expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who
preferred religious devotions
> >and had already rejected some other royal suitors)
or Isabella (who was less
> >than half his age).  But he probably would
> >have reasoned that it was Godâ¬"s will and his
duty to his kingdom and his
> >subjects.
> > 
> >So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the
fact
> >of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations
has made me look very
> >differently at the later period of Richardâ¬"s
reign. It has made it difficult
> >for me to accept the â¬Sdesperateâ¬ý image
offered by so many narratives that
> >either skip over it or only mention it in
passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that
itâ¬"s
> >amazing how much ink has been spilled over a
marriage Richard did not intend
> >(with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the
ones he indisputably did
> >(Portugal and Spain).
> >
> >Cathy         
> >
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


    [email protected]

Agree completely. Well said every oneSent from my BlackBerry® smartphoneFrom: <justcarol67@...> Sender: Date: 09 Oct 2013 17:15:06 -0700To: <>ReplyTo: Subject: RE: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages

I don't normally do one- (or two-) line posts, but I just wanted to express agreement with every word of this one. Great post, Cathy.

Carol

---In , <> wrote:

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

May I ditto that too....eileen

--- In , c.nelson1@... wrote:
>
> Agree completely. Well said every one
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <justcarol67@...>
> Sender:
> Date: 09 Oct 2013 17:15:06
> To: <>
> Reply-To:
> Subject: RE: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
>
> I don't normally do one- (or two-) line posts, but I just wanted to express agreement with every word of this one. Great post, Cathy.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
> ---In , <> wrote:
>
> Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard’s marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I’ve been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.
>
>
>
> These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength’s of Ashdown-Hill’s “Last Days,” that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as “desperate” or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor’s invasion.
>
> The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn’t mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it’s contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn’t suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn’t aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughâ€"if you’ll forgive the mixed metaphors.)
>
> But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren’t intended as “evidence” in a “case” for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.
>
> Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach … and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.
>
> That’s not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God’s will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.
>
> So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard’s reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the “desperate” image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it’s amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).
>
>
> Cathy
>

Absolutely agree Cathy. I think that lots of "historians" have accepted, Croyland, Mancini and More as gospel and have not looked outside the box. I have to say that I enjoy this forum because we have excellent people on here who have done masses of research of the documents that do exist and have not just accepted what the chroniclers say. I love it when someone makes a point against Richard and Marie says words to the effect that there is a document in the records which refutes that. It makes my day.

---In , <> wrote:

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

This quote from J R Lander seems apropos --
'In spite of the notoriously fragmented nature of our sources for the mid- and late fifteenth century most general histories give a deceptively firm outline of its political events. In reality the political history of the period is a web of shreds and tatters, patched up from meagre chronicles and from a few collections of letters in which exaggerated gossip and wild rumours have been all too often confused with facts. ["Marriage and Politics in the Fifteenth Century: The Nevilles and the Wydevilles."]

A J

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 12:14 PM, <maryfriend@...> wrote:
 

Absolutely agree Cathy. I think that lots of "historians" have accepted, Croyland, Mancini and More as gospel and have not looked outside the box. I have to say that I enjoy this forum because we have excellent people on here who have done masses of research of the documents that do exist and have not just accepted what the chroniclers say. I love it when someone makes a point against Richard and Marie says words to the effect that there is a document in the records which refutes that. It makes my day. 

---In , <> wrote:

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago. 

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

 

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power.  (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

 

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur.  They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard.  They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

 

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well.  They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

 

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy.  The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost.  He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age).  But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

 

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

David, the letter that Buck said he had seen said words to the effect that the Queen was taking time to die and that Richard was her only hope and joy in the world. That could be interpreted as that they knew that Anne was going to die and the Portugese marriages had been suggested. Elizabeth had been the daughter of the King and was then suddenly made illegitimate. If they could arrange the Portugese marriage she would be a Duchess. Apparently Manuel wasn't expected to inherit the throne so maybe an illegitimate daughter of a King of England wasn't considered a problem, after all Llewellyn Fawr married King John's illegitimate daughter. Elizabeth was probably not happy at her comedown and was desperate to be married to Manuel and become a Duchess in her own right. After all she faced a bleak future as the wife of Henry Tudor. I think the remark has been misinterpreted and I think the " only hope and joy in the world" remark was that of a young girl thinking how she could get out of the position she was in and only Richard could arrange that marriage.

---In , <> wrote:

Cathy,
I think it is safe to read Chris Skidmore's book. He does mention the Portuguese wedding plans and describes it as very unlikely that there was any truth in the rumours that Richard was going to marry Elizabeth. He does say that it seems that the false rumours had reached Henry while he was in Rouen and they caused a certain amount of panic.

I agree that J A-H is very convincing on this as he is very fair on Henry with regard to the burial of Richard after Bosworth.

The desperation he mentions is specifically very close to Bosworth, perhaps when he has doubts about the support of some of his key nobles.

One thing that has always puzzled me about the Portugal wedding plans is that Elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by Titulus Regius when Richard came to the throne.

Was Richard planning to repeal TR?
Was legitimacy not of interest to the Portuguese?
Was Portugal being simply pragmatic?


Another thing is that it was Buck who claimed to have seen letters that proved Elizabeth wanted to marry Richard - it seems very odd for a person who wrote in Richard's favour and who found the copy of Titulus Regius.

Kind regards
David
From: cattivoid <[email protected]>;
To: <>;
Subject: "desperate" Richard and the Portuguese/Spanish marriages
Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 3:02:38 AM

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain? I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago.

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike. (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.) I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary. The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power. (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur. They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard. They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man. On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal. He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well. They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy. The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost. He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age). But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing. I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy

The most important history lesson I ever had consisted of two words given by Prof. Teofilo Ruiz, then teaching medieval history at Brooklyn College.  They were given as he sent us on a primary-sources research assignment:  "Question everything."
Maria  ejbronte@...

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:30 PM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
 

This quote from J R Lander seems apropos --
'In spite of the notoriously fragmented nature of our sources for the mid- and late fifteenth century most general histories give a deceptively firm outline of its political events. In reality the political history of the period is a web of shreds and tatters, patched up from meagre chronicles and from a few collections of letters in which exaggerated gossip and wild rumours have been all too often confused with facts. ["Marriage and Politics in the Fifteenth Century: The Nevilles and the Wydevilles."]

A J

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 12:14 PM, <maryfriend@...> wrote:
 

Absolutely agree Cathy. I think that lots of "historians" have accepted, Croyland, Mancini and More as gospel and have not looked outside the box. I have to say that I enjoy this forum because we have excellent people on here who have done masses of research of the documents that do exist and have not just accepted what the chroniclers say. I love it when someone makes a point against Richard and Marie says words to the effect that there is a document in the records which refutes that. It makes my day. 

---In , <> wrote:

Question for anyone who has read the Skidmore book: Does Skidmore discuss Richard's marriage negotiations with Portugal and Spain?  I am curious because even though I've been reading books about Richard for nearly 25 years I never even heard of Joanna of Portugal until just a few years ago. 

These marriage plans seem to have been mostly ignored by traditionalist and pro-Ricardian books alike.  (I think this is one of the strength's of Ashdown-Hill's Last Days, that he gives full and ongoing weight to it.)  I ask about it now, because they usually seem to be ignored or briefly passed over when the author is presenting a narrative of Richard by the end of his reign as desperate or otherwise isolated and passively waiting to roll over and quit in the face of Tudor's invasion.

 

The charitable explanation is that these marriage plans receive little to no attention because the authors are following the Croyland Chronicle, which also doesn't mention them. But here we have a bald example of the danger of treating a contemporary source as gospel just because it's contemporary.  The Croyland Chronicler either willfully suppressed it because it didn't suit the image of Richard he wished to portray, or he simply wasn't aware of it because he no longer had a position close to power.  (My own theory is that Richard probably gave him the boot as a leech inherited from Edward IV, and the chronicler resented losing his cushy pipeline to swill in the troughif you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.)

 

But no matter what Croyland says or doesn't say, the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations did occur.  They are attested to by independent Portuguese sources, which are as close to objective as possible because they weren't intended as evidence in a case for or against Richard.  They were records of what was important to Portugal, and they tell the whole story: that Richard sought to arrange a marriage for himself to Joanna, and for a daughter of Edward IV to Manuel Duke of Beja, and that the Portuguese royal counselors urged King John to agree to the proposals because (1) it would help heal the Lancaster/York rift since Joanna was a legitimate descendant of Lancaster and (2) if Portugal didn't ally itself with Richard, they would lose out to Spain because Ferdinand and Isabella would be all too pleased to let Richard marry their daughter instead.

 

Ashdown-Hill presents these marriage negotiations, and I think persuasively, as not the actions of an isolated, desperate man.  On the contrary, they show Richard pragmatically addressing short-term needs (a son), long-term needs (uniting Lancaster and York, forging a foreign alliance), fulfilling his vow to Elizabeth Woodville that he would arrange honorable marriages for her daughters, putting Elizabeth of York out of Tudor's reach & and also that he was savvy enough not to risk everything on one throw of the dice with Portugal.  He had the caution and foresight to cast feelers with Spain (also of Lancastrian descent) as well.  They also show, importantly, that continental rulers regarded Richard as a legitimate, viable peer with whom they wanted to form alliances.

 

That's not to say that Richard was necessarily bubbling with joy.  The protracted marriage negotiations would have reminded him regularly and poignantly of the first wife and child he had lost.  He may not have expected much personal happiness with Joanna (who preferred religious devotions and had already rejected some other royal suitors) or Isabella (who was less than half his age).  But he probably would have reasoned that it was God's will and his duty to his kingdom and his subjects.

 

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that the fact of the Portuguese and Spanish marriage negotiations has made me look very differently at the later period of Richard's reign. It has made it difficult for me to accept the desperate image offered by so many narratives that either skip over it or only mention it in passing.  I have to agree with Annette Carson that it's amazing how much ink has been spilled over a marriage Richard did not intend (with Elizabeth of York) and hardly any over the ones he indisputably did (Portugal and Spain).

Cathy