Re : RE: Re: Re : Re: Re: Re : RE: Re: [Richard III Society Forum] P

Carol,
Louis XI died in precisely the right time to allow Francis II to feel confident enough to allow Henry to take part in the rebellion. The situation in France was not at all stable, with rival factions competing for the role of 'protector' of the young king. This situation again allowed Henry to be allowed back through France to Brittany.

In Brittany, there was a struggle for power between the established order of old noble families who considered Landais to be an upstart and Francis's health was failing and he only had daughters.

I think it is fair to state that Richard did benefit from the rumours. As you say, the rescue attempts ceased and the rebellion lost focus. Now, Doug stated the logistic problems in disproving the rumours - it is true there was no Twitter - but the rebels and the rumour spreaders faced the same limitations.

If the rumours were damaging to Richard, he need not have tried to dispel them in the heat of battle, but could easily have done so at leisure after the rebels had been put down.

Again, the MB spy theory suffers from the difficulty of the question of how they would know the boys would not return or be brought back?

Regards
David







From:

justcarol67@... ;


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Subject:

RE: Re: Re : Re: Re: Re : RE: Re: Proclamation from Henry VII


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Hilary wrote:

Thanks
David. I just think that attributing all this to Morton, MB, Henry, the
Woodvilles, makes them much cleverer than they really were.
Opportunists absolutely, but there was only one Spider who'd spent years
collecting dossiers and no doubt passing them on to his successors.
He'd even fought his own father at some point, hadn't he? And they
reckon he knew what Edward IV had for breakfast every day :)I must brush up my very neglected French history. And yes, Commines had no axe to grind, certainly at this point. Hilary
Carol responds:

Slight problem, Hilary. Louis XI died in August 1483. I agree that the rumors benefited the French and that they likely spread them, but I don't think they originated there. (I certainly agree that they didn't originate with the Woodvilles!)

As for David D's claim that Richard benefited from the claim that his nephews were dead, clearly not. True, the rescue attempts ceased, but those who had incited them (and had not been executed) switched their support to Tudor. Even Croyland implies that the rumors that "arose" from an unnamed source had this effect. (And Vergil notes that Margaret Beaufort welcomed the rumors!)

We don't know who started them, but we do know who benefited--Tudor and his camp. One of Margaret Beaufort's spies could have noted that the boys had disappeared from the Tower. The question of whether they were alive or dead would arise, and speculation that they had been killed (presumably on on Richard's orders though the rumor didn't say so) would find fertile ground in France and Brittany--and among the disaffected Yorkists still in England.

I wonder--and there's no answer to this question--whether the followers of Buckingham deserted him partly because they thought he had killed the boys?

Carol (who thinks the boys weren't killed at all but sent to Burgundy, perhaps spending time at Gipping first)

David, I would agree that in the autumn of 1483 Richard did benefit from the rumours that the Princes were dead because whichever candidate put himself forward as a substitute (whether Henry Tudor or Buckingham) did not get the full support of the rebels who had been prepared to come out for Edward V. But that is not to say that the rumours helped Richard in the long term - in my view they turned a lot of people off him and made the subsequent character assassination rumours (poisoned wife, lusted after niece) seem more credible. The story that he had murdered the Princes therefore made things more difficult for Richard in 1485.

Even were this not the case, just because this rumour helped Richard more than anyone else in October 1483 does not mean that he planted must have it. It was a very double-edged sword. Whoever set such a rumour would want to put the blame on someone other than themselves, surely. Richard could have gained far more political capital by announcing that the Princes had been murdered by Buckingham.

I really don't think either Richard or Henry knew definitively what had become of the Princes, or at least one of them.

Marie

---In , <> wrote:

Carol,
Louis XI died in precisely the right time to allow Francis II to feel confident enough to allow Henry to take part in the rebellion. The situation in France was not at all stable, with rival factions competing for the role of 'protector' of the young king. This situation again allowed Henry to be allowed back through France to Brittany.

In Brittany, there was a struggle for power between the established order of old noble families who considered Landais to be an upstart and Francis's health was failing and he only had daughters.

I think it is fair to state that Richard did benefit from the rumours. As you say, the rescue attempts ceased and the rebellion lost focus. Now, Doug stated the logistic problems in disproving the rumours - it is true there was no Twitter - but the rebels and the rumour spreaders faced the same limitations.

If the rumours were damaging to Richard, he need not have tried to dispel them in the heat of battle, but could easily have done so at leisure after the rebels had been put down.

Again, the MB spy theory suffers from the difficulty of the question of how they would know the boys would not return or be brought back?

Regards
David







From:

justcarol67@... ;


To:

;


Subject:

RE: Re: Re : Re: Re: Re : RE: Re: Proclamation from Henry VII


Sent:

Wed, Oct 16, 2013 4:10:10 PM















Hilary wrote:

Thanks
David. I just think that attributing all this to Morton, MB, Henry, the
Woodvilles, makes them much cleverer than they really were.
Opportunists absolutely, but there was only one Spider who'd spent years
collecting dossiers and no doubt passing them on to his successors.
He'd even fought his own father at some point, hadn't he? And they
reckon he knew what Edward IV had for breakfast every day :)I must brush up my very neglected French history. And yes, Commines had no axe to grind, certainly at this point. Hilary
Carol responds:

Slight problem, Hilary. Louis XI died in August 1483. I agree that the rumors benefited the French and that they likely spread them, but I don't think they originated there. (I certainly agree that they didn't originate with the Woodvilles!)

As for David D's claim that Richard benefited from the claim that his nephews were dead, clearly not. True, the rescue attempts ceased, but those who had incited them (and had not been executed) switched their support to Tudor. Even Croyland implies that the rumors that "arose" from an unnamed source had this effect. (And Vergil notes that Margaret Beaufort welcomed the rumors!)

We don't know who started them, but we do know who benefited--Tudor and his camp. One of Margaret Beaufort's spies could have noted that the boys had disappeared from the Tower. The question of whether they were alive or dead would arise, and speculation that they had been killed (presumably on on Richard's orders though the rumor didn't say so) would find fertile ground in France and Brittany--and among the disaffected Yorkists still in England.

I wonder--and there's no answer to this question--whether the followers of Buckingham deserted him partly because they thought he had killed the boys?

Carol (who thinks the boys weren't killed at all but sent to Burgundy, perhaps spending time at Gipping first)

I have a biography of Anne de Beaujeu and also one of her husband, Pierre de Bourbon, but both are in French. The biography of Pierre tries to present the case that he was the effective regent, rather than his wife, but history doesn't really support that view. The author is very much biased towards effective male rule, rather than female. The biography of Anne (Anne de France fille de Louis XI, duchesse de Bourbon is by Jean Cluzel) was published in 2002. The biography of Pierre (Le Duc Pierre II de Bourbon; Le due méconnu) is by André Recoules and was published by a local history group - Société d'Emulation du Bourbonnais.
Incidently, I was in Moulins this summer and they have opened to the public the Chateau where Anne and Pierre lived. It is undergoing a lot of refurbishment, as it was used as a prison during the Second World War, as Moulins was on the boundary between Vichy France and German-occupied France and the Chateau was used as a place to hold Jews and others who were being deported. They have also started refurbishment of the apartments of Louis de Bourbon (early 15th century) and they are most impressive. There is also the Pavillion de Anne de Beaujeu, which she had built to accommodate her brother, Charles VIII, when he came on a visit. It was the first Renaissance Palace in France - it is next door to what is left of the Chateau and is now a museum.
In the Cathedral of Moulins (part of which is the 15th century church built by Anne and Pierre, is the famous Triptyque de al Vierge by the Master of Moulins which has portraits of Anne, Pierre and their daughter and heir, Suzanne, which are regarded as true likenesses.

Carol wrote:All of which makes me w onder how close Anne of Beaujolais was to her wily father in her thinking. Was she a schemer who liked to play the chess pieces against each other (or weave webs to catch flies) as her father did? Or was she just a loyal regent who feared a powerful English king (and a takeover by the Duke of Orleans, whom she perhaps viewed as a parallel to Richard as Duke of Gloucester? Does anyone know of a good biography of her, one that isn't distorted by the favorable bias that usually surrounds a successful ruler or regent? I know only a little about her and absolutely nothing about her husband and co-regent, Peter of Bourbon.

Carol

Pamela, how good is that biography by Jean Cluzel? I actually ordered it a while ago, as Anne de Beaujeu fascinates me... she certainly looks like a tough woman in her portraits!
Pansy

I think it is quite good - I'm about half-way through it and it gives the impression that she was the driving force behind French politics while her brother was a minor. I get the impression that Pierre was an amiable sort of chap - he was a great friend of her father's which I suppose is why the marriage came about. Pierre was a younger son, with no immediate prospect of inheriting the duchy and was around 15 years older than Anne, who was married when she was 12. Their son died young and their daughter was rather sickly. If you look at the Postscript web site - there is an English translation of her Letters to a Daughter, which was her written guidance for Suzanne - makes interesting reading.
: pansydobersby wrote:

Pamela, how good is that biography by Jean Cluzel? I actually ordered it a while ago, as Anne de Beaujeu fascinates me... she certainly looks like a tough woman in her portraits!
Pansy

The French made a wonderful film on the last days of Louis XI which looked simply amazing, incredibly accurate in detail, costumes, and settings, and with actors that were chillingly like their portraits. Let us not forget the deformity of Anne of Beaujeau. I wonder if this could have had any influence on the tales about Richard that later sprang up.
It was shown on TV5 Monde which one can get in the UK via Sky tv. Louis XI- Le Pouvoir Fracassé.
Well worth the detour, as they say in the Michelin! :-)
Paul


On 19/10/2013 17:57, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
I have a biography of Anne de Beaujeu and also one of her husband, Pierre de Bourbon, but both are in French. The biography of Pierre tries to present the case that he was the effective regent, rather than his wife, but history doesn't really support that view. The author is very much biased towards effective male rule, rather than female. The biography of Anne (Anne de France fille de Louis XI, duchesse de Bourbon is by Jean Cluzel) was published in 2002. The biography of Pierre (Le Duc Pierre II de Bourbon; Le due méconnu) is by André Recoules and was published by a local history group - Société d'Emulation du Bourbonnais.
Incidently, I was in Moulins this summer and they have opened to the public the Chateau where Anne and Pierre lived. It is undergoing a lot of refurbishment, as it was used as a prison during the Second World War, as Moulins was on the boundary between Vichy France and German-occupied France and the Chateau was used as a place to hold Jews and others who were being deported. They have also started refurbishment of the apartments of Louis de Bourbon (early 15th century) and they are most impressive. There is also the Pavillion de Anne de Beaujeu, which she had built to accommodate her brother, Charles VIII, when he came on a visit. It was the first Renaissance Palace in France - it is next door to what is left of the Chateau and is now a museum.
In the Cathedral of Moulins (part of which is the 15th century church built by Anne and Pierre, is the famous Triptyque de al Vierge by the Master of Moulins which has portraits of Anne, Pierre and their daughter and heir, Suzanne, which are regarded as true likenesses.

Carol wrote: All of which makes me w onder how close Anne of Beaujolais was to her wily father in her thinking. Was she a schemer who liked to play the chess pieces against each other (or weave webs to catch flies) as her father did? Or was she just a loyal regent who feared a powerful English king (and a takeover by the Duke of Orleans, whom she perhaps viewed as a parallel to Richard as Duke of Gloucester? Does anyone know of a good biography of her, one that isn't distorted by the favorable bias that usually surrounds a successful ruler or regent? I know only a little about her and absolutely nothing about her husband and co-regent, Peter of Bourbon.

Carol





--
Richard Liveth Yet!

It was not Anne de Beaujeu who was deformed, but her sister, Jeanne de France. She was married to her cousin, Louis, the Duke of Orleans, but he divorced her once he became King and she entered a convent. She is now a saint.
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:

The French made a wonderful film on the last days of Louis XI which looked simply amazing, incredibly accurate in detail, costumes, and settings, and with actors that were chillingly like their portraits. Let us not forget the deformity of Anne of Beaujeau. I wonder if this could have had any influence on the tales about Richard that later sprang up.
It was shown on TV5 Monde which one can get in the UK via Sky tv. Louis XI- Le Pouvoir Fracassé.
Well worth the detour, as they say in the Michelin! :-)
Paul


On 19/10/2013 17:57, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
I have a biography of Anne de Beaujeu and also one of her husband, Pierre de Bourbon, but both are in French. The biography of Pierre tries to present the case that he was the effective regent, rather than his wife, but history doesn't really support that view. The author is very much biased towards effective male rule, rather than female. The biography of Anne (Anne de France fille de Louis XI, duchesse de Bourbon is by Jean Cluzel) was published in 2002. The biography of Pierre (Le Duc Pierre II de Bourbon; Le due méconnu) is by André Recoules and was published by a local history group - Société d'Emulation du Bourbonnais.
Incidently, I was in Moulins this summer and they have opened to the public the Chateau where Anne and Pierre lived. It is undergoing a lot of refurbishment, as it was used as a prison during the Second World War, as Moulins was on the boundary between Vichy France and German-occupied France and the Chateau was used as a place to hold Jews and others who were being deported. They have also started refurbishment of the apartments of Louis de Bourbon (early 15th century) and they are most impressive. There is also the Pavillion de Anne de Beaujeu, which she had built to accommodate her brother, Charles VIII, when he came on a visit. It was the first Renaissance Palace in France - it is next door to what is left of the Chateau and is now a museum.
In the Cathedral of Moulins (part of which is the 15th century church built by Anne and Pierre, is the famous Triptyque de al Vierge by the Master of Moulins which has portraits of Anne, Pierre and their daughter and heir, Suzanne, which are regarded as true likenesses.

Carol wrote: All of which makes me w onder how close Anne of Beaujolais was to her wily father in her thinking. Was she a schemer who liked to play the chess pieces against each other (or weave webs to catch flies) as her father did? Or was she just a loyal regent who feared a powerful English king (and a takeover by the Duke of Orleans, whom she perhaps viewed as a parallel to Richard as Duke of Gloucester? Does anyone know of a good biography of her, one that isn't distorted by the favorable bias that usually surrounds a successful ruler or regent? I know only a little about her and absolutely nothing about her husband and co-regent, Peter of Bourbon.

Carol





--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Thank you. Though it doesn't alter the fact that close to the crown at the time was a n openly deformed person of huge influence.
Sometimes on this forum one is made to feel as if one is being told to go stand in the corner! Isn't non verbal communication wonderful!
Paul

On 20/10/2013 11:05, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
It was not Anne de Beaujeu who was deformed, but her sister, Jeanne de France. She was married to her cousin, Louis, the Duke of Orleans, but he divorced her once he became King and she entered a convent. She is now a saint.
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:

The French made a wonderful film on the last days of Louis XI which looked simply amazing, incredibly accurate in detail, costumes, and settings, and with actors that were chillingly like their portraits. Let us not forget the deformity of Anne of Beaujeau. I wonder if this could have had any influence on the tales about Richard that later sprang up.
It was shown on TV5 Monde which one can get in the UK via Sky tv. Louis XI- Le Pouvoir Fracassé.
Well worth the detour, as they say in the Michelin! :-)
Paul


On 19/10/2013 17:57, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
I have a biography of Anne de Beaujeu and also one of her husband, Pierre de Bourbon, but both are in French. The biography of Pierre tries to present the case that he was the effective regent, rather than his wife, but history doesn't really support that view. The author is very much biased towards effective male rule, rather than female. The biography of Anne (Anne de France fille de Louis XI, duchesse de Bourbon is by Jean Cluzel) was published in 2002. The biography of Pierre (Le Duc Pierre II de Bourbon; Le due méconnu) is by André Recoules and was published by a local history group - Société d'Emulation du Bourbonnais.
Incidently, I was in Moulins this summer and they have opened to the public the Chateau where Anne and Pierre lived. It is undergoing a lot of refurbishment, as it was used as a prison during the Second World War, as Moulins was on the boundary between Vichy France and German-occupied France and the Chateau was used as a place to hold Jews and others who were being deported. They have also started refurbishment of the apartments of Louis de Bourbon (early 15th century) and they are most impressive. There is also the Pavillion de Anne de Beaujeu, which she had built to accommodate her brother, Charles VIII, when he came on a visit. It was the first Renaissance Palace in France - it is next door to what is left of the Chateau and is now a museum.
In the Cathedral of Moulins (part of which is the 15th century church built by Anne and Pierre, is the famous Triptyque de al Vierge by the Master of Moulins which has portraits of Anne, Pierre and their daughter and heir, Suzanne, which are regarded as true likenesses.

Carol wrote: All of which makes me w onder how close Anne of Beaujolais was to her wily father in her thinking. Was she a schemer who liked to play the chess pieces against each other (or weave webs to catch flies) as her father did? Or was she just a loyal regent who feared a powerful English king (and a takeover by the Duke of Orleans, whom she perhaps viewed as a parallel to Richard as Duke of Gloucester? Does anyone know of a good biography of her, one that isn't distorted by the favorable bias that usually surrounds a successful ruler or regent? I know only a little about her and absolutely nothing about her husband and co-regent, Peter of Bourbon.

Carol





--
Richard Liveth Yet!



--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Paul, if that remark is aimed at me, I am sorry you feel that way. I was merely pointing out a historical fact - after all aren't we all seekers after truth?
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>


Thank you. Though it doesn't alter the fact that close to the crown at the time was a n openly deformed person of huge influence.
Sometimes on this forum one is made to feel as if one is being told to go stand in the corner! Isn't non verbal communication wonderful!
Paul

On 20/10/2013 11:05, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
It was not Anne de Beaujeu who was deformed, but her sister, Jeanne de France. She was married to her cousin, Louis, the Duke of Orleans, but he divorced her once he became King and she entered a convent. She is now a saint.
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:

The French made a wonderful film on the last days of Louis XI which looked simply amazing, incredibly accurate in detail, costumes, and settings, and with actors that were chillingly like their portraits. Let us not forget the deformity of Anne of Beaujeau. I wonder if this could have had any influence on the tales about Richard that later sprang up.
It was shown on TV5 Monde which one can get in the UK via Sky tv. Louis XI- Le Pouvoir Fracassé.
Well worth the detour, as they say in the Michelin! :-)
Paul


On 19/10/2013 17:57, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
I have a biography of Anne de Beaujeu and also one of her husband, Pierre de Bourbon, but both are in French. The biography of Pierre tries to present the case that he was the effective regent, rather than his wife, but history doesn't really support that view. The author is very much biased towards effective male rule, rather than female. The biography of Anne (Anne de France fille de Louis XI, duchesse de Bourbon is by Jean Cluzel) was published in 2002. The biography of Pierre (Le Duc Pierre II de Bourbon; Le due méconnu) is by André Recoules and was published by a local history group - Société d'Emulation du Bourbonnais.
Incidently, I was in Moulins this summer and they have opened to the public the Chateau where Anne and Pierre lived. It is undergoing a lot of refurbishment, as it was used as a prison during the Second World War, as Moulins was on the boundary between Vichy France and German-occupied France and the Chateau was used as a place to hold Jews and others who were being deported. They have also started refurbishment of the apartments of Louis de Bourbon (early 15th century) and they are most impressive. There is also the Pavillion de Anne de Beaujeu, which she had built to accommodate her brother, Charles VIII, when he came on a visit. It was the first Renaissance Palace in France - it is next door to what is left of the Chateau and is now a museum.
In the Cathedral of Moulins (part of which is the 15th century church built by Anne and Pierre, is the famous Triptyque de al Vierge by the Master of Moulins which has portraits of Anne, Pierre and their daughter and heir, Suzanne, which are regarded as true likenesses.

Carol wrote: All of which makes me w onder how close Anne of Beaujolais was to her wily father in her thinking. Was she a schemer who liked to play the chess pieces against each other (or weave webs to catch flies) as her father did? Or was she just a loyal regent who feared a powerful English king (and a takeover by the Duke of Orleans, whom she perhaps viewed as a parallel to Richard as Duke of Gloucester? Does anyone know of a good biography of her, one that isn't distorted by the favorable bias that usually surrounds a successful ruler or regent? I know only a little about her and absolutely nothing about her husband and co-regent, Peter of Bourbon.

Carol





--
Richard Liveth Yet!



--
Richard Liveth Yet!