Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
2004-05-10 21:52:23
----- Original Message -----
From: brunhild613
To:
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: Where is everyone?
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In , marion davis
> <phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> >
> > 1 - How could a priest--whose job description probably
> > didn't include grave-digging, let alone unburials and
> > re-burials--unearth a wooden box holding two corpses
> > and rebury them by himself?
> >
> > 2 - How long does it take to dig and refill two
> > graves? How long does it take to carry a wooden box
> > holding 2 corpses from one gravesite to another? Was
> > there time for one priest to do all that between
> > midnight and sunrise?
> >
> > 3 - The royal armory, mint, and menangerie--as well as
> > the royal apartments--were located in the Tower then.
> > How did the priest avoid beeing seen and questioned by
> > some of those guards as he carried the wooden box from
> > one gravesite to the other? Could all of those guards
> > have been paid to keep quiet? Wouldn't one or more of
> > them have talked about it sooner or later?
>
>
> Don't forget that this athletic priest chose to rebury the box of
> corpses under a stone staircase -- leading to the Chapel of St
Johnin
> the White Tower -- that was in daily use at the time. And he did
it
> during one night, not leaving a trace of his work.
>
> If he accomplished all that without detection, he performed as
> miracle that should have quaified him for sainthood, himself.
>
> Katy
Bit slow here - has there been a new biog of R out that is worth
redaing and I missed it? I am not convinced that there is a legal
leg to stand on re post 1485 rebels, since the Tudor had been
crowned so it was treason. Have all the Bosworth attainted been
pardoned/reversed? Was Richard's own actually reversed by anyone? if
so I missed it somewhere along the line.
It was my idea on Friday - I just suggested that Warwick, Salisbury and Montagu couldn't possibly have been objectively guilty of treason so let us get them pardoned because it will harm the Tudors and should consequently help us. The book is the one Jones is working on, about his Hypothesis and the Yorkist heirs, almost a sequel to his Bosworth tome.
These messages are all on the forum for 7/5/04.
Incidentally, have you reminded us that the Coventry Parliament attainted Richard of York and Edward, not that it stopped the latter very much?
Stephen
I have been reading Horrox on and off for nearly a year but I was a
bit disappointed that it is negative, and put off by her own
complete lack of persona in presentation. She doesn't "make the
earth move". 3
Weir is in good company with her stubborn adherence to the paptent
Tudor drivel More spots, for Starkey of course is another. Starkey
is less than impressive in many respects as an academic for he tends
to gravitate towards the seedy and sordid and loves to make rather
racy and untenable statements. I haven't yet read this one by Weir,
but am insufficiently impressed by her other stuff to rush to buy it.
Brunhild
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From: brunhild613
To:
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: Where is everyone?
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In , marion davis
> <phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> >
> > 1 - How could a priest--whose job description probably
> > didn't include grave-digging, let alone unburials and
> > re-burials--unearth a wooden box holding two corpses
> > and rebury them by himself?
> >
> > 2 - How long does it take to dig and refill two
> > graves? How long does it take to carry a wooden box
> > holding 2 corpses from one gravesite to another? Was
> > there time for one priest to do all that between
> > midnight and sunrise?
> >
> > 3 - The royal armory, mint, and menangerie--as well as
> > the royal apartments--were located in the Tower then.
> > How did the priest avoid beeing seen and questioned by
> > some of those guards as he carried the wooden box from
> > one gravesite to the other? Could all of those guards
> > have been paid to keep quiet? Wouldn't one or more of
> > them have talked about it sooner or later?
>
>
> Don't forget that this athletic priest chose to rebury the box of
> corpses under a stone staircase -- leading to the Chapel of St
Johnin
> the White Tower -- that was in daily use at the time. And he did
it
> during one night, not leaving a trace of his work.
>
> If he accomplished all that without detection, he performed as
> miracle that should have quaified him for sainthood, himself.
>
> Katy
Bit slow here - has there been a new biog of R out that is worth
redaing and I missed it? I am not convinced that there is a legal
leg to stand on re post 1485 rebels, since the Tudor had been
crowned so it was treason. Have all the Bosworth attainted been
pardoned/reversed? Was Richard's own actually reversed by anyone? if
so I missed it somewhere along the line.
It was my idea on Friday - I just suggested that Warwick, Salisbury and Montagu couldn't possibly have been objectively guilty of treason so let us get them pardoned because it will harm the Tudors and should consequently help us. The book is the one Jones is working on, about his Hypothesis and the Yorkist heirs, almost a sequel to his Bosworth tome.
These messages are all on the forum for 7/5/04.
Incidentally, have you reminded us that the Coventry Parliament attainted Richard of York and Edward, not that it stopped the latter very much?
Stephen
I have been reading Horrox on and off for nearly a year but I was a
bit disappointed that it is negative, and put off by her own
complete lack of persona in presentation. She doesn't "make the
earth move". 3
Weir is in good company with her stubborn adherence to the paptent
Tudor drivel More spots, for Starkey of course is another. Starkey
is less than impressive in many respects as an academic for he tends
to gravitate towards the seedy and sordid and loves to make rather
racy and untenable statements. I haven't yet read this one by Weir,
but am insufficiently impressed by her other stuff to rush to buy it.
Brunhild
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
2004-05-10 22:01:57
Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may be lost
in ether anyway).
But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
Marie
in ether anyway).
But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
Marie
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
2004-05-10 22:40:59
----- Original Message -----
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Where is everyone?
--- In , "brunhild613"
<brunhild@n...> wrote:
> --- In , oregonkaty
> <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> > --- In , marion davis
> > <phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > 1 - How could a priest--whose job description probably
> > > didn't include grave-digging, let alone unburials and
> > > re-burials--unearth a wooden box holding two corpses
> > > and rebury them by himself?
> > >
> > > 2 - How long does it take to dig and refill two
> > > graves? How long does it take to carry a wooden box
> > > holding 2 corpses from one gravesite to another? Was
> > > there time for one priest to do all that between
> > > midnight and sunrise?
> > >
> > > 3 - The royal armory, mint, and menangerie--as well as
> > > the royal apartments--were located in the Tower then.
> > > How did the priest avoid beeing seen and questioned by
> > > some of those guards as he carried the wooden box from
> > > one gravesite to the other? Could all of those guards
> > > have been paid to keep quiet? Wouldn't one or more of
> > > them have talked about it sooner or later?
> >
> >
> > Don't forget that this athletic priest chose to rebury the box of
> > corpses under a stone staircase -- leading to the Chapel of St
> Johnin
> > the White Tower -- that was in daily use at the time. And he did
> it
> > during one night, not leaving a trace of his work.
> >
> > If he accomplished all that without detection, he performed as
> > miracle that should have quaified him for sainthood, himself.
> >
> > Katy
>
> Bit slow here - has there been a new biog of R out that is worth
> redaing and I missed it? I am not convinced that there is a legal
> leg to stand on re post 1485 rebels, since the Tudor had been
> crowned so it was treason. Have all the Bosworth attainted been
> pardoned/reversed? Was Richard's own actually reversed by anyone?
if
> so I missed it somewhere along the line.
At the risk of putting words in Stephen's mouth, I imagine his
argument re Warwick is that he was set up, that he hadn't actually
plotted against Henry at all. Such an case would not have argue the
illegitimacy of Henry's own position as a legal fact, but Henry's
motive in setting Warwick up for execution - ie the pathetic nature
of his own claim - would inevitably be presented, as would Warwick's
good treatment under richard. So the publicity /public education
achievement would be :-
1) Henry nasty man - poor innocent Warwick. Compare the fact of
Warwick's long imprisonment & judicial murder with the mere
speculation about the Princes' fates.
2) Henry had no right to be monarch either (and probably neither did
his Yorkist queen). So would you rely on this man to tell you his
(probably legit.) predecessor was a killer of child rivals? Would you
buy a used car from this man?
I'm not sure how one would manage with the other Yorkists, however.
Perhaps we should stick to Warwick and his poor old mum.
Marie
That is EXACTLY what I am thinking (except that Salisbury was his sister, younger if I recall, no written dates of birth to hand until the next Jones comes out).
Salisbury and her son (Henry, Lord Montagu) may be slightly more problematic as they may have breached the Act of Supremacy just by believing as they always had.
Technically, Princess Mary (of whom Salisbury had been a governess) either committed treason - by failing to endorse her father's new religious policy - or changed her own mind only to change it back. She was not executed - this Act was used selectively to settle old scores. It finished More, but every cloud........
Stephen
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From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Where is everyone?
--- In , "brunhild613"
<brunhild@n...> wrote:
> --- In , oregonkaty
> <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> > --- In , marion davis
> > <phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > 1 - How could a priest--whose job description probably
> > > didn't include grave-digging, let alone unburials and
> > > re-burials--unearth a wooden box holding two corpses
> > > and rebury them by himself?
> > >
> > > 2 - How long does it take to dig and refill two
> > > graves? How long does it take to carry a wooden box
> > > holding 2 corpses from one gravesite to another? Was
> > > there time for one priest to do all that between
> > > midnight and sunrise?
> > >
> > > 3 - The royal armory, mint, and menangerie--as well as
> > > the royal apartments--were located in the Tower then.
> > > How did the priest avoid beeing seen and questioned by
> > > some of those guards as he carried the wooden box from
> > > one gravesite to the other? Could all of those guards
> > > have been paid to keep quiet? Wouldn't one or more of
> > > them have talked about it sooner or later?
> >
> >
> > Don't forget that this athletic priest chose to rebury the box of
> > corpses under a stone staircase -- leading to the Chapel of St
> Johnin
> > the White Tower -- that was in daily use at the time. And he did
> it
> > during one night, not leaving a trace of his work.
> >
> > If he accomplished all that without detection, he performed as
> > miracle that should have quaified him for sainthood, himself.
> >
> > Katy
>
> Bit slow here - has there been a new biog of R out that is worth
> redaing and I missed it? I am not convinced that there is a legal
> leg to stand on re post 1485 rebels, since the Tudor had been
> crowned so it was treason. Have all the Bosworth attainted been
> pardoned/reversed? Was Richard's own actually reversed by anyone?
if
> so I missed it somewhere along the line.
At the risk of putting words in Stephen's mouth, I imagine his
argument re Warwick is that he was set up, that he hadn't actually
plotted against Henry at all. Such an case would not have argue the
illegitimacy of Henry's own position as a legal fact, but Henry's
motive in setting Warwick up for execution - ie the pathetic nature
of his own claim - would inevitably be presented, as would Warwick's
good treatment under richard. So the publicity /public education
achievement would be :-
1) Henry nasty man - poor innocent Warwick. Compare the fact of
Warwick's long imprisonment & judicial murder with the mere
speculation about the Princes' fates.
2) Henry had no right to be monarch either (and probably neither did
his Yorkist queen). So would you rely on this man to tell you his
(probably legit.) predecessor was a killer of child rivals? Would you
buy a used car from this man?
I'm not sure how one would manage with the other Yorkists, however.
Perhaps we should stick to Warwick and his poor old mum.
Marie
That is EXACTLY what I am thinking (except that Salisbury was his sister, younger if I recall, no written dates of birth to hand until the next Jones comes out).
Salisbury and her son (Henry, Lord Montagu) may be slightly more problematic as they may have breached the Act of Supremacy just by believing as they always had.
Technically, Princess Mary (of whom Salisbury had been a governess) either committed treason - by failing to endorse her father's new religious policy - or changed her own mind only to change it back. She was not executed - this Act was used selectively to settle old scores. It finished More, but every cloud........
Stephen
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
2004-05-10 22:44:00
Sorry, Marie, I replied before I read your prompt correction. Isabel Neville died in 1476 before her husband, making Warwick and Salisbury orphans by the age of about five (again, no years of birth to hand - Hurry up with that book MKJ!).
----- Original Message -----
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Where is everyone?
Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may be lost
in ether anyway).
But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
Marie
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
----- Original Message -----
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Where is everyone?
Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may be lost
in ether anyway).
But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
Marie
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
2004-05-11 16:06:56
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
> Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may be
lost
> in ether anyway).
>
> But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
>
> Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
>
> Marie
How do you mean, "mess with" her? She was dead. Are we talking
questionable birth again? Well, not, in the sense that they
couldn't. I guess it's been a long day and my brain has been
scrambled by getting a job...Where is that bottle of red wine???
B
<marie@r...> wrote:
> Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may be
lost
> in ether anyway).
>
> But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
>
> Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
>
> Marie
How do you mean, "mess with" her? She was dead. Are we talking
questionable birth again? Well, not, in the sense that they
couldn't. I guess it's been a long day and my brain has been
scrambled by getting a job...Where is that bottle of red wine???
B
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
2004-05-11 16:08:07
She was not executed - this Act was used selectively to settle old
scores. It finished More, but every cloud........
>
> Stephen
ROFL. I can't think of anyone who deserved it more. (Excuse the pun!)
B
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
>
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-----------
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>
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> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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of Service.
>
>
>
>
scores. It finished More, but every cloud........
>
> Stephen
ROFL. I can't think of anyone who deserved it more. (Excuse the pun!)
B
>
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> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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of Service.
>
>
>
>
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
2004-05-11 16:49:01
--- In , "brunhild613"
<brunhild@n...> wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
> > Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may be
> lost
> > in ether anyway).
> >
> > But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
> >
> > Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
> >
> > Marie
>
> How do you mean, "mess with" her? She was dead.
Are we talking
> questionable birth again? Well, not, in the sense that they
> couldn't. I guess it's been a long day and my brain has been
> scrambled by getting a job...Where is that bottle of red wine???
I'm not sure what I meant now. I was actually interrupted by the
arrival of a bottle of red wine as I was writing, as it happens.
Perhaps it was premature drunkenness.
Marie
PS Do you think I had the formidable grandmother in mind?
>
<brunhild@n...> wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
> > Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may be
> lost
> > in ether anyway).
> >
> > But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
> >
> > Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
> >
> > Marie
>
> How do you mean, "mess with" her? She was dead.
Are we talking
> questionable birth again? Well, not, in the sense that they
> couldn't. I guess it's been a long day and my brain has been
> scrambled by getting a job...Where is that bottle of red wine???
I'm not sure what I meant now. I was actually interrupted by the
arrival of a bottle of red wine as I was writing, as it happens.
Perhaps it was premature drunkenness.
Marie
PS Do you think I had the formidable grandmother in mind?
>
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where is everyone?
2004-05-13 16:25:08
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
> --- In , "brunhild613"
> <brunhild@n...> wrote:
> > --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> > <marie@r...> wrote:
> > > Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may
be
> > lost
> > > in ether anyway).
> > >
> > > But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
> > >
> > > Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
> > >
> > > Marie
> >
> > How do you mean, "mess with" her? She was dead.
>
>
>
> Are we talking
> > questionable birth again? Well, not, in the sense that they
> > couldn't. I guess it's been a long day and my brain has been
> > scrambled by getting a job...Where is that bottle of red wine???
>
> I'm not sure what I meant now. I was actually interrupted by the
> arrival of a bottle of red wine as I was writing, as it happens.
> Perhaps it was premature drunkenness.
>
> Marie
>
> PS Do you think I had the formidable grandmother in mind?
>
>
Heavens, my own brain was clearly scrambled and I didn't have the
excuse of wine! The phrase "don't mess" with did certainly bring
Cecily to mind!
B ;-)
> >
<marie@r...> wrote:
> --- In , "brunhild613"
> <brunhild@n...> wrote:
> > --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> > <marie@r...> wrote:
> > > Just a slight ocrrection on message I just posted (which may
be
> > lost
> > > in ether anyway).
> > >
> > > But if it does turn up, for last word 'mum': read 'sister'.
> > >
> > > Not even Henry dared to mess with Warwick's mum.
> > >
> > > Marie
> >
> > How do you mean, "mess with" her? She was dead.
>
>
>
> Are we talking
> > questionable birth again? Well, not, in the sense that they
> > couldn't. I guess it's been a long day and my brain has been
> > scrambled by getting a job...Where is that bottle of red wine???
>
> I'm not sure what I meant now. I was actually interrupted by the
> arrival of a bottle of red wine as I was writing, as it happens.
> Perhaps it was premature drunkenness.
>
> Marie
>
> PS Do you think I had the formidable grandmother in mind?
>
>
Heavens, my own brain was clearly scrambled and I didn't have the
excuse of wine! The phrase "don't mess" with did certainly bring
Cecily to mind!
B ;-)
> >
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