Philosophical question for all of us?
Philosophical question for all of us?
I know this is a bit of an unusual question from what I have seen on here, but during Christmas I have been wondering WHY we have this interest in Richard III and trying to possibly put right the injustices done to him?
Lots of people are judged unfairly, just look at how many people are released from prison even now, because DNA evidence has finally proved that what they had been saying all along was true, that they were innocent all along. We do not follow them and look for evidence of them being judged unfairly, but we do with Richard. I just wondered what you find is the fascination with him, and not someone else say?
Personally, I have several reasons, but no overall overwhelming reason amongst them. So I have no answer myself that I find is satisfactory. That is why I thought I would ask for your opinion - In the hope that it might help to clarify my own thoughts and feelings?
Happy New Year!
Tony
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
On Dec 28, 2013, at 8:43 PM, "group_mail_address@..." <group_mail_address@...> wrote:
I know this is a bit of an unusual question from what I have seen on here, but during Christmas I have been wondering WHY we have this interest in Richard III and trying to possibly put right the injustices done to him?
Lots of people are judged unfairly, just look at how many people are released from prison even now, because DNA evidence has finally proved that what they had been saying all along was true, that they were innocent all along. We do not follow them and look for evidence of them being judged unfairly, but we do with Richard. I just wondered what you find is the fascination with him, and not someone else say?
Personally, I have several reasons, but no overall overwhelming reason amongst them. So I have no answer myself that I find is satisfactory. That is why I thought I would ask for your opinion - In the hope that it might help to clarify my own thoughts and feelings?
Happy New Year!
Tony
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
The earliest memory I have regarding the War of the Roses was when I was aged seven and we had to draw a picture of Henry V!! (who had won the battle of Bosworth in 1485) and one of his wife, Elizabeth of York.I think we also drew a picture of their son Henry V111.......I don't think there was any mention of Richard at all.
My mother and grandmother were keen readers of historical novels eg jean Plaidy.Georgette Heyer etc and my sister and myself read them when we were in our early teens and that's how I was introduced to Richard and his times via The Daughter in Time,The Sunne in Splendour,Dickon etc.
I wanted to join The Richard 111 Society from the information in the back of the books but I was too young.and then further education and life got in the way! I have always felt empathy with Richard and was delighted many years later to visit York Minster and be in a place he had visited and known.
When the search for Richard's remains was announced it rekindled my interest once more.I watched some of The White Queen episodes,with trepedation I have to say.The meeting of Richard and Anne and their marriage proposal scene was so moving and his final moments had me in tears.....as did the findings of his remains.
Since joining The Richard 111 Society it has been so wonderful to find so much information and passion about Richard.
So I guess that I have a connection with Richard because he has emerged through all as such a really good person who deserves to have his reputation restored intact.
Kathryn
Ps My computer is not working properly ..so I may disappear for a bit until its fixed!
Wishing everyone a very Happy New Year xxx
--- In , Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
> For me, it has been an interest, because as a double major English and History, I was curious about history vs. fiction. Also, I have been trying to find ties to my British ancestors, and one family name is York. So, I just kind of fell into poking around. Then when I heard there was a search for the remains, I joined the Society and the group. I have been overwhelmed by the knowledge possessed by so many on the group, how much research they have done - reading, translating, and on and on. It has been eye opening, and amazing. And finally, I suppose I never quite believed that the Tudors were the "good guys" and the Plantagenets were so damned bad, especially Richard.
>
> On Dec 28, 2013, at 8:43 PM, "group_mail_address@...<mailto:group_mail_address@...>" <group_mail_address@...<mailto:group_mail_address@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> I know this is a bit of an unusual question from what I have seen on here, but during Christmas I have been wondering WHY we have this interest in Richard III and trying to possibly put right the injustices done to him?
>
>
> Lots of people are judged unfairly, just look at how many people are released from prison even now, because DNA evidence has finally proved that what they had been saying all along was true, that they were innocent all along. We do not follow them and look for evidence of them being judged unfairly, but we do with Richard. I just wondered what you find is the fascination with him, and not someone else say?
>
>
> Personally, I have several reasons, but no overall overwhelming reason amongst them. So I have no answer myself that I find is satisfactory. That is why I thought I would ask for your opinion - In the hope that it might help to clarify my own thoughts and feelings?
>
>
> Happy New Year!
>
>
> Tony
>
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
"I know this is a bit of an unusual question from what I have seen on here, but during Christmas I have been wondering WHY we have this interest in Richard III and trying to possibly put right the injustices done to him? <snip>"
Carol responds:
I doubt that you'll find one single answer. For me, the interest began with Shakespeare's play. I knew that he had distorted the chronology, and it was obvious (to me) that he was depicting a monster instead of a man, so I wanted to see how much he had exaggerated Richard's wickedness. Imagine my surprise to see that even the most traditional historians acquitted him of several of his "crimes" (the deaths of Anne, George, Edward of Lancaster, and sometimes Henry VI) and that the deaths of Hastings and Buckingham were political executions, at least one of them fully justified. When I did still more research and discovered his loyalty to Edward and his concern for the poor as reflected in his laws, my interest became a crusade for justice. I think the difference between Richard and any other unfairly convicted person is that the image of the wicked hunchbacked uncle is so widespread and ingrained in the public mind thanks to the genius of Shakespeare and the sly wit of "Saint" Thomas More. Defending Richard appeals to our sense of justice, but it also requires hard work and determination. Each small victory (proof that he didn't have a withered arm, for example) is worthy of celebration. The only other famous person I can think of who is almost as unfairly maligned is Lewis Carroll. Try persuading any American under thirty "educated" (indoctrinated) by our politically correct school system that he wasn't a pedophile. It's next to impossible.The Freudians have done to Carroll what the Tudors did to Richard. But, somehow, Richard's case seems more important. Maybe it was because he was a king. Maybe it's because he deserves so much credit for the good he did or tried to do. Maybe it's because he was accused of many crimes, not just one, and his appearance was slandered along with his character. I don't know. All I know is that I will continue to defend him and continue trying to win converts to his cause until I can no longer type or speak.
Loyaultie me lie.
Carol
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
>
> Tony wrote:
>
> "I know this is a bit of an unusual question from what I have seen on here, but during Christmas I have been wondering WHY we have this interest in Richard III and trying to possibly put right the injustices done to him? <snip>"
>
>
> Carol responds:
>
>
> I doubt that you'll find one single answer. For me, the interest began with Shakespeare's play. I knew that he had distorted the chronology, and it was obvious (to me) that he was depicting a monster instead of a man, so I wanted to see how much he had exaggerated Richard's wickedness. Imagine my surprise to see that even the most traditional historians acquitted him of several of his "crimes" (the deaths of Anne, George, Edward of Lancaster, and sometimes Henry VI) and that the deaths of Hastings and Buckingham were political executions, at least one of them fully justified. When I did still more research and discovered his loyalty to Edward and his concern for the poor as reflected in his laws, my interest became a crusade for justice. I think the difference between Richard and any other unfairly convicted person is that the image of the wicked hunchbacked uncle is so widespread and ingrained in the public mind thanks to the genius of Shakespeare and the sly wit of "Saint" Thomas More. Defending Richard appeals to our sense of justice, but it also requires hard work and determination. Each small victory (proof that he didn't have a withered arm, for example) is worthy of celebration. The only other famous person I can think of who is almost as unfairly maligned is Lewis Carroll. Try persuading any American under thirty "educated" (indoctrinated) by our politically correct school system that he wasn't a pedophile. It's next to impossible.The Freudians have done to Carroll what the Tudors did to Richard. But, somehow, Richard's case seems more important. Maybe it was because he was a king. Maybe it's because he deserves so much credit for the good he did or tried to do. Maybe it's because he was accused of many crimes, not just one, and his appearance was slandered along with his character. I don't know. All I know is that I will continue to defend him and continue trying to win converts to his cause until I can no longer type or speak.
>
>
> Loyaultie me lie.
>
>
> Carol
>i believe not only the tudors, but also the victorians , set richard up as a monster.ever since my schooldays i never believed richard was guilty of all these crimes listed against him , for the last 70 years i have been waiting for someone to clear his name , hopefully it wont be too long before that happens , jim ,
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
On Sunday, 29 December 2013, 19:54, "mahoney-james1@..." <mahoney-james1@...> wrote:
--- In , <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Tony wrote:
>
> "I know this is a bit of an unusual question from what I have seen on here, but during Christmas I have been wondering WHY we have this interest in Richard III and trying to possibly put right the injustices done to him? <snip>"
>
>
> Carol responds:
>
>
> I doubt that you'll find one single answer. For me, the interest began with Shakespeare's play. I knew that he had distorted the chronology, and it was obvious (to me) that he was depicting a monster instead of a man, so I wanted to see how much he had exaggerated Richard's wickedness. Imagine my surprise to see that even the most traditional historians acquitted him of several of his "crimes" (the deaths of Anne, George, Edward of Lancaster, and sometimes Henry VI) and that the deaths of Hastings and Buckingham were political executions, at least one of them fully justified. When I did still more research and discovered his loyalty to Edward and his concern for the poor as reflected in his laws, my interest became a crusade for justice. I think the difference between Richard and any other unfairly convicted person is that the image of the wicked hunchbacked uncle is so widespread and ingrained in the public mind thanks to the genius of Shakespeare and the sly wit of "Saint" Thomas More. Defending Richard appeals to our sense of justice, but it also requires hard work and determination. Each small victory (proof that he didn't have a withered arm, for example) is worthy of celebration. The only other famous person I can think of who is almost as unfairly maligned is Lewis Carroll. Try persuading any American under thirty "educated" (indoctrinated) by our politically correct school system that he wasn't a pedophile. It's next to impossible.The Freudians have done to Carroll what the Tudors did to Richard. But, somehow, Richard's case seems more important. Maybe it was because he was a king. Maybe it's because he deserves so much credit for the good he did or tried to do. Maybe it's because he was accused of many crimes, not just one, and his appearance was slandered along with his character. I don't know. All I know is that I will continue to defend him and continue trying to win converts to his cause until I can no longer type or speak.
>
>
> Loyaultie me lie.
>
>
> Carol
>i believe not only the tudors, but also the victorians , set richard up as a monster.ever since my schooldays i never believed richard was guilty of all these crimes listed against him , for the last 70 years i have been waiting for someone to clear his name , hopefully it wont be too long before that happens , jim ,
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
I couldn't have put it better if I had tried Hilary. I have often thought that maybe Richard is encouraging us to achieve justice for him but have dismissed it as wishful thinking. It is good to know someone else has the same idea, as you say who knows? I think that if he had won at Bosworth this World would definitely have been a much better place. Like Carol I will go on fighting his corner until I am not able to fight anymore.
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
Kathryn x
--- In , <maryfriend@...> wrote:
>
> I couldn't have put it better if I had tried Hilary. I have often thought that maybe Richard is encouraging us to achieve justice for him but have dismissed it as wishful thinking. It is good to know someone else has the same idea, as you say who knows? I think that if he had won at Bosworth this World would definitely have been a much better place. Like Carol I will go on fighting his corner until I am not able to fight anymore.
>
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
I just wish to express my appreciation for Hilary's remarks. I too came to history through fiction and imagination as a child, an early love of Arthurian tales opened the door to the richness of the past. Once truly encountered, Richard does not let you go--an admission I've encountered, in one form or another, from all sorts of authors!
The reflections/interweavings of his story with Arthurian legends, and what meanings they held for him and his contemporaries, are intriguing. Certainly HT made a very deliberate effort to appropriate this cultural heritage into regime propaganda. Time to re-read Le Morte d'Arthur....
Anne
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
>
> I just wish to express my appreciation for Hilary's remarks. I too came to history through fiction and imagination as a child, an early love of Arthurian tales opened the door to the richness of the past. Once truly encountered, Richard does not let you go--an admission I've encountered, in one form or another, from all sorts of authors!
>
>
> The reflections/interweavings of his story with Arthurian legends, and what meanings they held for him and his contemporaries, are intriguing. Certainly HT made a very deliberate effort to appropriate this cultural heritage into regime propaganda. Time to re-read Le Morte d'Arthur....
>
>
> Anne
>
i came to history as a child also ,but under very different circumstances ,as a child during the war years especially in the winter the local public library was the only place i knew which was warm , i spent many happy hours reading history books snuggled up to the radiators ,that was luxury indeed , jim
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
What wonderful replies there have been! It is so fascinating to read all the different ways people have found themselves drawn to this group. For me it was reading a highly-sensationalised story about the Princes, when I was the same age as the oldest was supposed to have been when he disappeared. I guess it chilled my blood, as the story was supposed to do I suppose? Now of course I doubt there was a single accurate part of the story, but at least it was responsible for my interest in Richard.
Best wishes,
Tony
Re: Philosophical question for all of us?
Tony, I have been in this group a year or so. I was stunned by the intellects, knowledge, and common sense of the primary posters. The research, the passion, and again, the body of knowledge is wonderful. Every day is a pearl!!!
From: [mailto:]
On Behalf Of group_mail_address@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 3:09 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Philosophical question for all of us?
What wonderful replies there have been! It is so fascinating to read all the different ways people have found themselves drawn to this group. For me it was reading a highly-sensationalised story about the Princes, when I was the same age as the oldest was supposed to have been when he disappeared. I guess it chilled my blood, as the story was supposed to do I suppose? Now of course I doubt there was a single accurate part of the story, but at least it was responsible for my interest in Richard.
Best wishes,
Tony
