EoY, Anne Neville, and Those Christmas Dresses

Earlier, Marie had mentioned her idea about the reason why Anne and EoY were wearing clothes of the same material at Christmas - i.e., because EoY was Anne's lady in waiting.

A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death.

If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have been put on hold.

Tamara

Tamara wrote: "A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death. If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have ben put on hold." Doug here: Of *course* it makes sense that any plans for Anne's Ladies in Waiting would be put on hold until she either got well or died. But as that doesn't fit what was "known" about Richard's eeeevil intentions, I doubt it was ever even considered by "historians"... Doug (who wants to go on record *now* that the first part of his second sentence is snark)

Isn't the flaw in this that Manuel of Portugal wouldn't have wanted to marry a bastard demoted to 'Lady in Waiting'? He wasn't HVIII. I thought I'd read somewhere that Anne brought her ladies from Yorkshire with her; including Margaret Huddlestone, her half-sister? Isn't it more likely that Anne's death (probably from TB) was long, drawn out and most unpleasant for all? H.

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:43, Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...> wrote:
Tamara wrote: "A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death. If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have ben put on hold." Doug here: Of *course* it makes sense that any plans for Anne's Ladies in Waiting would be put on hold until she either got well or died. But as that doesn't fit what was "known" about Richard's eeeevil intentions, I doubt it was ever even considered by "historians"... Doug (who wants to go on record *now* that the first part of his second sentence is snark)

Well, but in 1484, Manoel was in very fragile political position:  far from the throne and trying to get on the good side of Joao II of Portugal after the execution of brother Diogo.  Marriage and possibly a nice getaway up north might have been just up his ally that year.
Maria ejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
 

Isn't the flaw in this that Manuel of Portugal wouldn't have wanted to marry a bastard demoted to  'Lady in Waiting'? He wasn't HVIII.  I thought I'd read somewhere that Anne brought her ladies from Yorkshire with her; including Margaret Huddlestone, her half-sister? Isn't it more likely that Anne's death (probably from TB) was long, drawn out and most unpleasant for all?  H.

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:43, Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...> wrote:
  Tamara wrote: "A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death. If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have ben put on hold."   Doug here: Of *course* it makes sense that any plans for Anne's Ladies in Waiting would be put on hold until she either got well or died. But as that doesn't fit what was "known" about Richard's eeeevil intentions, I doubt it was ever even considered by "historians"... Doug (who wants to go on record *now* that the first part of his second sentence is snark)

True, very true - I didn't know that. But if he was in a fragile position wouldn't a marriage to a woman of property have been more up his street - EOY had nothing and a rather tenuous reputation - says she trying to cling to the argument? H

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:07, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
Well, but in 1484, Manoel was in very fragile political position: far from the throne and trying to get on the good side of Joao II of Portugal after the execution of brother Diogo. Marriage and possibly a nice getaway up north might have been just up his ally that year.
Maria ejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
Isn't the flaw in this that Manuel of Portugal wouldn't have wanted to marry a bastard demoted to 'Lady in Waiting'? He wasn't HVIII. I thought I'd read somewhere that Anne brought her ladies from Yorkshire with her; including Margaret Huddlestone, her half-sister? Isn't it more likely that Anne's death (probably from TB) was long, drawn out and most unpleasant for all? H.

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:43, Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...> wrote:
Tamara wrote: "A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death. If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have ben put on hold." Doug here: Of *course* it makes sense that any plans for Anne's Ladies in Waiting would be put on hold until she either got well or died. But as that doesn't fit what was "known" about Richard's eeeevil intentions, I doubt it was ever even considered by "historians"... Doug (who wants to go on record *now* that the first part of his second sentence is snark)

You never know; but if I were Manoel in that situation, and if my rather tenter-hooked sovereign had said to me:  "Now look, Manny.  There's a deal coming down the pike to get my eccentric sister out of my hair; and you're going to be part of that deal",   I might have said:  "Sure thing!  Glad to help out!"
Still in haste,
Mariaejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
 

True, very true - I didn't know that. But if he was in a fragile position wouldn't a marriage to a woman of property have been more up his street - EOY had nothing and a rather tenuous reputation - says she trying to cling to the argument?   H

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:07, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
  Well, but in 1484, Manoel was in very fragile political position:  far from the throne and trying to get on the good side of Joao II of Portugal after the execution of brother Diogo.  Marriage and possibly a nice getaway up north might have been just up his ally that year.
Maria ejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
  Isn't the flaw in this that Manuel of Portugal wouldn't have wanted to marry a bastard demoted to  'Lady in Waiting'? He wasn't HVIII.  I thought I'd read somewhere that Anne brought her ladies from Yorkshire with her; including Margaret Huddlestone, her half-sister? Isn't it more likely that Anne's death (probably from TB) was long, drawn out and most unpleasant for all?  H.

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:43, Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...> wrote:
  Tamara wrote: "A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death. If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have ben put on hold."   Doug here: Of *course* it makes sense that any plans for Anne's Ladies in Waiting would be put on hold until she either got well or died. But as that doesn't fit what was "known" about Richard's eeeevil intentions, I doubt it was ever even considered by "historians"... Doug (who wants to go on record *now* that the first part of his second sentence is snark)

All the postings today have been stupendous, especially this one, Tamara.
You all amaze me.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: khafara@... <khafara@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: EoY, Anne Neville, and Those Christmas Dresses
Sent: Wed, Jan 8, 2014 4:39:49 AM

 

Earlier, Marie had mentioned her idea about the reason why Anne and EoY were wearing clothes of the same material at Christmas - i.e., because EoY was Anne's lady in waiting. 

A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death. 

If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have been put on hold.

Tamara

Thanks, Maria!

Also, as J A-H reminds us in his Royal Marriage Secrets, being the natural daughter of a king didn't automatically bar a lady from being a perfectly acceptable mate for most any European royal or noble. The English didn't start to get really sniffy about the wrong-side-of-the-blanket thing, at least where royal consorts were concerned, until well after Richard's time.

Tamara

Maria,
Could I ask how much Jean Coëtanlem features in Portuguese history? He and his nephew Nicholas play significant roles in the events between England, France and Brittany in the 1480s and 1490s.

My understanding is that after harassing english shipping during the sea war that followed Richard's accession, Jean replaced Christopher Columbus as admiral of Portugal and died in Lisbon.

Kind regards
David


From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: EoY, Anne Neville, and Those Christmas Dresses
Sent: Wed, Jan 8, 2014 4:01:12 PM

 

You never know; but if I were Manoel in that situation, and if my rather tenter-hooked sovereign had said to me:  "Now look, Manny.  There's a deal coming down the pike to get my eccentric sister out of my hair; and you're going to be part of that deal",   I might have said:  "Sure thing!  Glad to help out!"
Still in haste,
Mariaejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
 

True, very true - I didn't know that. But if he was in a fragile position wouldn't a marriage to a woman of property have been more up his street - EOY had nothing and a rather tenuous reputation - says she trying to cling to the argument?   H

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:07, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
  Well, but in 1484, Manoel was in very fragile political position:  far from the throne and trying to get on the good side of Joao II of Portugal after the execution of brother Diogo.  Marriage and possibly a nice getaway up north might have been just up his ally that year.
Maria ejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
  Isn't the flaw in this that Manuel of Portugal wouldn't have wanted to marry a bastard demoted to  'Lady in Waiting'? He wasn't HVIII.  I thought I'd read somewhere that Anne brought her ladies from Yorkshire with her; including Margaret Huddlestone, her half-sister? Isn't it more likely that Anne's death (probably from TB) was long, drawn out and most unpleasant for all?  H.

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:43, Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...> wrote:
  Tamara wrote: "A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death. If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have ben put on hold."   Doug here: Of *course* it makes sense that any plans for Anne's Ladies in Waiting would be put on hold until she either got well or died. But as that doesn't fit what was "known" about Richard's eeeevil intentions, I doubt it was ever even considered by "historians"... Doug (who wants to go on record *now* that the first part of his second sentence is snark)

Hi David - I'd really have to look into that to give you an intelligent answer, but I'll dig around and let you know what I find! (My father having been from Spain, my concentration has always been more in Castile/Aragon, but I have a bunch of Portuguese references at home),
Maria ejbronte@...

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:38 AM, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
 

Maria,
Could I ask how much Jean Coëtanlem features in Portuguese history? He and his nephew Nicholas play significant roles in the events between England, France and Brittany in the 1480s and 1490s.

My understanding is that after harassing english shipping during the sea war that followed Richard's accession, Jean replaced Christopher Columbus as admiral of Portugal and died in Lisbon.

Kind regards
David


From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: EoY, Anne Neville, and Those Christmas Dresses
Sent: Wed, Jan 8, 2014 4:01:12 PM

 

You never know; but if I were Manoel in that situation, and if my rather tenter-hooked sovereign had said to me:  "Now look, Manny.  There's a deal coming down the pike to get my eccentric sister out of my hair; and you're going to be part of that deal",   I might have said:  "Sure thing!  Glad to help out!"
Still in haste,
Mariaejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
 

True, very true - I didn't know that. But if he was in a fragile position wouldn't a marriage to a woman of property have been more up his street - EOY had nothing and a rather tenuous reputation - says she trying to cling to the argument?   H

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:07, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
  Well, but in 1484, Manoel was in very fragile political position:  far from the throne and trying to get on the good side of Joao II of Portugal after the execution of brother Diogo.  Marriage and possibly a nice getaway up north might have been just up his ally that year.
Maria ejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
  Isn't the flaw in this that Manuel of Portugal wouldn't have wanted to marry a bastard demoted to  'Lady in Waiting'? He wasn't HVIII.  I thought I'd read somewhere that Anne brought her ladies from Yorkshire with her; including Margaret Huddlestone, her half-sister? Isn't it more likely that Anne's death (probably from TB) was long, drawn out and most unpleasant for all?  H.

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 15:43, Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...> wrote:
  Tamara wrote: "A friend of mine who saw Marie's idea agrees, and states that this would also solve the problem of EoY implying (if Buck is accurate) that her marriage depended on Anne's death. If EoY was Anne's assistant, and Anne was seriously ill, Richard almost certainly wouldn't want Anne to go through the stress of choosing and training a new assistant at such a time, so EoY's marriage to Manuel of Portugal would of necessity have ben put on hold."   Doug here: Of *course* it makes sense that any plans for Anne's Ladies in Waiting would be put on hold until she either got well or died. But as that doesn't fit what was "known" about Richard's eeeevil intentions, I doubt it was ever even considered by "historians"... Doug (who wants to go on record *now* that the first part of his second sentence is snark)